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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "... A new Sequoia based on the new Tundra will probably replace the LC, and a Lexus version will probably replace the LX..."

    That's what I was thinking. For Lexus and Toyota, both it'll probably be easier this way as the LX/LC's are intensively expensive to build because of the materials used, so quite naturally their just as expensive to purchase.

    I think the method they used to introduce the GX spun off of the 4-Runner's platform is really the best option.

    BTW: I do hear that Toyota made sure to have both solid axle and IRS suspended next-gen Tundra chassis, so I'd imagine the big SUV's will have the IRS.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm saying they needed two new car models, NOT a replenishment of an existing model, for 85% of their growth.

    Well this isn't exactly Wall Street and MB isn't GM. The point of such a distinction is what? Introducing new models is supposed to boost the overall total right? That along with some older models that have seen renewed interest as of late that are also adding to the overall totals is as good as it gets in today's market. Sales are sales and all this about Wall Street is largely irrelevant in this case, IMO. It isn't as if MB's new models sales are being negated by rapidly dropping sales of older models, that would be a problem. The "replenished" models like the E,CLK,and SL will contribute more to the overall total in coming months.

    I agree about Lexus' growth being overstated, but that is the way its done with all car companies. When a new model is introduced it always looks like it is a hit compared with the final year of sales of the old model. This time next year the LS460 will no doubt triple the sales of the LS430.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "The point of such a distinction is what?"

    A business viewpoint was the point. I'm an analytical person and that is my business analysis quick and dirty. Sorry if you don't like it.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    ljflx, don't get discouraged. Your posts connecting passion for HELMs with common sense business insights are very much appreciated. Rick W. could use a few guys like you about now. At a bare minimum GMs books wouldn't be so screwed up.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Rick W. could use a few guys like you about now. At a bare minimum GMs books wouldn't be so screwed up.

    I'll second that.

    But, analysis arguments aside, I think it fair to say that Mercedes sales are on the rise, and given the fact that more model updates are on the horizon, it is all a very likely sign of even better times ahead.

    The real sales winners at this point, IMO, are Toyota and Honda. Considering that Lexus is just starting to sell some of its best products ever, with more on the way, I'd say that Toyota/Lexus is in the process of showing the world an historic success story that will only get better.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A business viewpoint was the point. I'm an analytical person and that is my business analysis quick and dirty. Sorry if you don't like it.

    Oh ok, sorry if I don't see the relevance here especially when these types of "points" are brought up once MB is mentioned.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The real sales winners at this point, IMO, are Toyota and Honda. Considering that Lexus is just starting to sell some of its best products ever, with more on the way, I'd say that Toyota/Lexus is in the process of showing the world an historic success story that will only get better.

    Honda to a much lesser extent than Toyota. They have some very strong new products, but they have a lot of significant problems as well.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Oh ok, sorry if I don't see the relevance here especially when these types of "points" are brought up once MB is mentioned.

    Excuse me, Merc1, but Len's the resident business exec here and his inputs are very much appreciated. On this HELM board, every angle to the car business is looked at, not a one-track driving/handling/performance/HP angle you'd prefer. You should be sorry indeed...

    And look at you talking SALES, eh ! Well... well.. It does sound great to see MB doing so well sales-wise, until things go sour and you'd not like to hear month-to-month, or YTD, or YoY sales again... hehehehe

    And while we are on the topic of MB, Merc1, can you explain why MB sells the new S-class as an S500 here in Japan, while its an S550 in the US, especially since both are rated at 387HP ? What gives here ????

    BTW, in a May 2006 car mag here, the LS600hL is pegged at 430HP, with standard 245/45/19" rims, compared to the 387HP S500L, with standard 255/45/18" rims. The LS600hL however outweighs the S by over 200Ibs... Ouch ! Must be that hybrid motor in the 600hL, eh ?

    Finally, Toyota has another MB-copy car here in Japan, and its not even funny.... The 2008 Crown Majesta... That car is such a blatant MB rip-off, mimicing the Maybach more than the new S, especially from the rear. When I get back, I'd scan the pic and post it here. The car sports the new 4.6L V8 motor rated at 380HP as well... Its exactly like the LS in front, and a Maybach in the rear. Go figure !!!

    More to come from the land of the rising sun....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Excuse me, Merc1, but Len's the resident business exec here and his inputs are very much appreciated. On this HELM board, every angle to the car business is looked at, not a one-track driving/handling/performance/HP angle you'd prefer. You should be sorry indeed...

    Whooptie do! Let’s just say I disagree with the timing of these “business” inputs more than the viewpoints themselves, though in this case I don't think there was a point at all at least not anything really enlightening. Pluhease, you act as though that little tidbit was heaven sent. Heck I could have told you that by just looking at the numbers, that most of the growth was due to new models. That is common sense when a company introduces as many new models as MB has in the past year. The whole thing was irrelevant at best, IMO. It really seems mightily coincidental that this "business" angle comes up in the negative about MB anytime one mentions an MB accomplishment.

    And while we are on the topic of MB, Merc1, can you explain why MB sells the new S-class as an S500 here in Japan, while its an S550 in the US, especially since both are rated at 387HP ? What gives here ????

    My guess would be that MBUSA wanted to keep the badging more accurate or they felt that "550" would sound better than "500" on a new car. They may have thought that some wouldn't see a new "500" as an upgrade so they went with "550" instead. I dunno.

    BTW, in a May 2006 car mag here, the LS600hL is pegged at 430HP, with standard 245/45/19" rims, compared to the 387HP S500L, with standard 255/45/18" rims. The LS600hL however outweighs the S by over 200Ibs... Ouch ! Must be that hybrid motor in the 600hL, eh ?

    Well I'm sure that is where they'll need to price for it to be competitive because it appears the LS600hL doesn't stand a chance against a 510hp S600 when it comes to performance.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The same reason it's a Lexus here and a Toyota there.
    Americans need to be "impressed" more with status-evoking words or numbers.
    550 vs 500, Lexus vs Toyota.
    They must have done some sociological research and found that Americans are more impressed by status than their Japanese counterparts.
    I wonder what gave them that idea?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Pat, thanks for your kind words.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oac, I notice you are in Japan often enough. Do you speak Japanese? Also if you don’t mind me asking, what kind of work do you do? Pardon me if you mentioned it in the past and I forgot.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Ah, my dear Designman, you know you can ask me anything anytime and I'd respond... So here are the answers to yours:

    Oac, I notice you are in Japan often enough. Do you speak Japanese?

    Yes, I do come here at least once every year. As to my language skills, nada... except if you count arigato gozaimos :) Sorry, I am pretty bad at learning new languages, so I do not speak Japanese, but rely on my Japanese business colleagues to help me get by - taxis, food, intros, etc...

    Also if you don’t mind me asking, what kind of work do you do?

    Not at all... I work in the biotech industry but in the computational algorithms and application software side of the business. I tend to travel quite a bit, and spend time attending and presenting at scientific conferences on how to make better drugs that is safe for you (SteveK would understand this, I suppose). By my academic background, a doctorate in science does help... Kinda moved out of the art of facing computer screens all day cranking out codes, and now into the business side, as a marketing exec... Maybe Len influenced me somewhat with all the business shpeak, eh ? :) Sorry if any of these sounds smug, don't mean it to be tho'...

    Pardon me if you mentioned it in the past and I forgot.

    No one has asked before, until now....
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    My guess would be that MBUSA wanted to keep the badging more accurate or they felt that "550" would sound better than "500" on a new car. They may have thought that some wouldn't see a new "500" as an upgrade so they went with "550" instead. I dunno.

    Your first I dunno on an MB. Hah ! Methinks you and Howard are probably right. The S500 here (in Japan) is exactly the S550 (in the US). I was thrown off, I had to stare long and hard to convince myself I was seeing a 500 designation. Yep, its a 500 alright. So what would you call this MB snafu - putting a 5.5L motor and calling it a 500 in Japan and a 550 in the US ? Marketing genius, or fooling somebody ? But the car is a stunner ! Just gorgeous, I must admit. It looked so tight and impressive. I simply love this car. Maybe my view is jaded somewhat since I have yet to see the new LS in person. Ahhhh ! once I behold the new LS, I may change my entire view of the new S :) Won't that just be like a true Lexican !!!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There are parts of Asia where numbers like 0 (perfect circle), 8 (two perfect circles), and to a lesser extent 3 (parts of circles) are considered desireable. When I first started my own business I picked a phone number that ended in 8888 for that reason, as I was targeting, in part, investors from Hong Kong and Taiwan.

    I don't know if Japan is one of those places where such numbers are desirable, but if it is that might explain a marketing decsion to call it an S500.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Finally, Toyota has another MB-copy car here in Japan, and its not even funny.... The 2008 Crown Majesta...

    Hi, oac. Hope your travel goes smoothly. I've been interested in the Crown Majesta (at least the previous model) for a while now, since someone (lexusguy?) first mentioned it on these boards. Seems it could be more successful in the US as a "baby LS" than the GS has been as a "sporty" Lexus non-FWD sedan. By any chance, can you find out if it is offered with an AWD option? How does it compare in size to the E350/Camry, and the E-series and 5-series?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think M-B said something to the effect that "S500" is a historic badge, and they wanted to keep it for the Euro market (and apparently Japan as well). As to why its 550 here, I'm sure its the usual "we've got more motor than you" that so impresses us Americans. Witness the glee over the Z06's "427" badge.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    By any chance, can you find out if it is offered with an AWD option? How does it compare in size to the E350/Camry, and the E-series and 5-series?

    I will have the mag write-up decoded into readable English so that I can then transcribe properly, hopefully there won't be any "lost in translation" moment :) So far, I have only given my more cursory impression.. BTW, it looks like the Crown Royal is the *baby LS* (mated to the 2GR-FSE motor in the IS rated at 315HP @ 6400rpm), not the Majesta (1UR-FSE V8, 380HP @ 6400rpm); the latter has the size and heft of an LS (and its motor as well), judging from the pics.... BUT, will clarify this for you and add answers to your request later...

    BTW, FWIW, one of the mags out here reports that the Lexus GT450 is a go ! Maybe this is old news tho'.... The car previously code-named LF-A, is scheduled to arrive Oct 2007, as a MY2008 release. It will spot a 4.5L V10 500HP motor. The tires are massive, and staggered: 245/40/19 (front), 285/35/19 (rear). Very nice looking car, has real presence too. Maybe do something about the rear skirt which seems to droop just a tad from a rear-side angle shot....

    How much would people pay for a 500HP F1-inspired Lexus sports car ???
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Any spy pics of the LF-A? Does it look like the concept?

    How much would people pay for a 500HP F1-inspired Lexus sports car ???

    Doesn't interest me, especially if it looks like the concept and doesn't have three pedals.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As to why its 550 here, I'm sure its the usual "we've got more motor than you" that so impresses us Americans.

    lg - my take on the 550 badge is simply that it is falls into the usual routine here in the states . . . which is that the designations typically (although not in every case) are an indication of the approximate, and in many cases exact, displacement of the engine.

    Sometimes there are necessary exceptions, such as the S600, to distinguish itself as the more powerful variant. But when looking at most all of the model's designations and engines, the pattern is clear.

    I know you realize all of this, but your statement that we Americans need to be impressed would be an irrational and emotional approach to the designations. IMO, the Mercedes USA designations are logical and rational since they are just basically a factual indication of the engine size.

    I do understand your statement as it can certainly apply in some cases to the American mindset . . . you are right about that . . . But in defense of Mercedes, I'm not seeing it here with the Mercedes USA model designations.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Source Automotive News:

    Porsche and Hyundai will emerge as the biggest winners Wednesday when J.D. Power and Associates releases its 2006 Initial Quality Study, industry sources say.

    Porsche will vault to the top spot overall in the study, improving from No. 32 in last year's ranking, making Porsche the top European nameplate.

    Hyundai will place third, up from No. 11 in 2005. That makes the Korean automaker the top mass-market nameplate.

    Toyota will round out the top four, moving up three spots from No. 7 last year.

    The study, which measures quality after 90 days of ownership, asks owners to rate vehicle quality on 135 attributes.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I know very little about Japan and their standard of living. Is there a lot of wealth in Japan? Can a lot of Japanese people afford cars like the high end MB's and high end Lexus? These discussions are quite intriguing to me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A fantastic result for Porsche. The Cayenne is what was killing them, looks like they've at least gotten some of the issues under control. Hyundai's very impressive showing should also give Toyota and Honda some worry. Not so good scores for BMW and Mercedes. The full report can be found here:

    http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks for the link.

    For comparison, the 2005 chart is here.

    The declines posted by MB and BMW from 05 to 06 are almost appalling. I wonder what accounts for the declines?

    Porsche's improvement from the prior year is just amazing.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You've got to be impressed with Hyundai, and even winning a Segment Award with the brand-new Azera, that says a lot about where they've put their priorities.

    It'll probably be a couple of years before they can win some long-term dependability awards, but their warranties/quality awards certainly make them a smart buy for anyone shopping for high value automobiles.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The declines posted by MB and BMW from 05 to 06 are almost appalling. I wonder what accounts for the declines?

    From the AP article:

    "The study, in its 20th year, was revamped to isolate consumers' concerns about design flaws, as distinct from defects and malfunctions. The change in methodology makes year-to-year comparisons impossible.

    This year's survey included 217 questions, up from 135 in previous years, and asked for information specifically about design problems, as well as defects.

    BMW AG's BMW brand had few defects, but one of the highest number of complaints about design — specifically about the way the brand integrated new technology into its vehicles, Ivers said."
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW is so low in the JD Power survey, I think I'm suffering from the bends!
    Time to visit my friendly Hyundai dealer?
    Many posts ago, I indicated how much I have been impressed with their smart-looking cars and SUV's.
    I drove a Sonata recently and for the price, is quite an impressive vehicle.

    CR will be testing the Azera next month. Let's see how it comes out against the Camry and Accord.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You've got to be impressed with Hyundai, and even winning a Segment Award with the brand-new Azera...

    Absolutely.

    From the styling standpoint, the Azera looks a lot like a Lexus LS . . . very close indeed and so amazing for a base price of only $24K. It is clearly the poor-man's Lexus LS, and with the JD Power study now under it's belt, Hyundai is on the right path.

    BTW, one of our HELMS, JAGUAR has held on to a top position. Number five, just under Toyota, continues to say a lot for Jaguar, IMO.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    BTW, one of our HELMS, JAGUAR has held on to a top position. Number five, just under Toyota, continues to say a lot for Jaguar, IMO.

    Now all they need is some sales, and they'll be gold!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Now all they need is some sales, and they'll be gold!

    Ha! Yes. Perhaps some replacement product for the S-Type and X-Type wouldn't hurt either!

    The XJ's and XK's are the keepers, but watch out . . . they (even the new XK) will need a refresh VERY soon I'm afraid.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    This has to be one of the most interesting IQ awards in quite a while.

    Jaguar, which has the top spot behind Lexus(in terms of mass-market premium makes) is suprising(maybe because nobody is buying the cars given it's 40% loss in sales for May), given that it's British stable mate, LR,(and other Ford PAG member), continues to be at the bottom of the heap, this time claiming the lowest ranking possible.

    And hats off to Hyundai. I'm definetely not the only person to believe that their recent assault on America with their incredible product with quality to match does have the potential to take not only the American makers but the Japanese also by storm. As I've said before, the Azera will make you think twice about purchasing that Avalon and will make you totally forget about the Ford Five-Hundred. And the old stalwart Elantra continues to impress despite the onslaught of new comp. The Tucson among the best cute utes.

    As for the premium makes, as usual, Lexus holds on to a top position, but CADDY??? Cadillac has really improved over recent years from the brink of falling off the list to being number 7. And Lincoln faired pretty well also. As for our European makes, with the exception of the legendary reliability of Porsche and a top spot for Jag, they didn't fair so well. Audi finished ahead of both MB and BMW, but it was still towards the bottom at number 18.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    BMW is so low in the JD Power survey, I think I'm suffering from the bends!
    Time to visit my friendly Hyundai dealer?

    You and I both know that you don't care what JDP says anyway. Your 545 doesn't visit the shop, and is just another reason for you to NOT trade it in on a new LS this fall. Heck, if you are going to trade it in, go see the new Azera which looks like the LS and pocket the money difference and buy another Denon and flat panel for the other room.

    My REAL recommendation = KEEP the 5

    :)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have the 545 for another 2 years. I can live with it.
    But that won't stop me from going to showroom after showroom checking out the best new vehicles.
    Funny how after several months with the 545, I immediately went back to researching my potential next vehicle.
    The insatiability factor I guess. It's also a lot of fun!

    I have never seen any automobile manufacturer bring it on so explosively as Hyundai.
    We live in interesting times.

    JD Power unfortunately never seems to knock on my door. My 545 has been flawless in year one.
    I just tapped my iDrive knob 3 times for good luck and the AM radio went on.
    I was wondering how that worked! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I have the 545 for another 2 years. I can live with it.

    My 545 has been flawless in year one.

    It's YOUR car, Howard. It's YOU.

    Just don't get too carried away when those other guys "challenge" you on the highway. A total stranger with mental issues can cost you your life.

    I'm glad you will keep it for a while, at least. We need you to be our resident "non award-winning" BMW fan! ;)

    :D

    TagMan
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Member Posts: 47
    Calling it a dissertation is ... being a bit rash.
    I've written dissertations, and for me the term implies having been carefully vetted by acknowledge experts in the field.

    Anyway, it would be a lot more meaningful if we focused on Bose systems in Audis (which come from a different division ... complete with it's own product designers) than the Bose home products.

    John
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I check out the LS this Fall, it will be to see whether or not to add it to my list of potentials for August 2008.

    "We need you to be our resident "non-award winning" BMW fan!"
    Thanks.... I think? :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    So you are saying that you don't give much credence to that article?
    Sounded impressive to me.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Oac are you a Pharmacokineticist, PK/PD or are you into drug discovery and structural biology area.

    I too have a PhD in Pharmaceutics and Biological Engineering.
    Which conferences do you go to? Do you attend AAPS biotech symposiums?
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I suppose you are virulently anti-lexus and you need some kind of vaccination for that.

    Also why are you preaching Azera :lemon: versus Lexus :shades: . It seems like your hostility towards Lexus is finally showing up and your true intentions are being revealed out of that iron curtain

    Why 5-series? :lemon:

    If that is the case, I should also start preaching everybody with all my might to shun the European brands and Stick to

    Lexus and good old cadillac. Why this Xenophobia? may I know?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Steve,

    As is so often the case, what you are saying makes no ----ing sense.

    I have never "preached" Azera. Hyundai came up in the forum due to the recent JDP IQ study. Hyundai did quite well according to the study, and it was actually your friend, Drfill, who brought the Azera into the conversation and blkhemi also had some add'l comments. I casually mentioned it as a joke I posted to Howard.

    So, once you review the posts, I guess you'll be getting all over Drfill for his "preaching" about the Azera, huh?

    Steve, your post is nothing more than antagonistic. You often like to throw grenades for fun, as you have a history of it here on the forum. If you want to have a normal conversation with me, feel free, but I won't engage in this sort of junk.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The Bose systems in some Audi's are better than most in Japanese makes, and some American makes like the Caddy STS for instance.

    BUT: The B&O system that I have in my W-12 will literally shatter glass if you're not to careful. If anybody's a noise freak like me, then $6800 option for the system in the car was well worth it, so much so that I sold my THX system in my house for the $18k home unit that is nothing short of astonishing.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I see where they'll import either a XJ6 or diesel version for '08 in hopes of getting more sells from the dragging XJ line, which is a great car but still hasn't quite grabbed the market may it be from people who're still in shock over their electronic system repair bill(I was one of them) or because they don't know that the car was completely redone in '04 because it looks like the '03.

    ...DCX gave the green light for Blutec CDI E/GL and possibly M-Classes and JGC's for either late '07 or early '08 m/y. They even said that the LX-platformed Chrysler cars will get the engine within 2 years. One up for DCX.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The Benz news was out for a while I thought, but where did you find the info on the Jag diesel? They have been tight-lipped for some time about bringing it onto our shores. I recently even spoke to someone in their customer service to see if I could get some info on this, and I was told point blank that there were no plans for the diesel. Of course, they're not going to let the "cat" out of the bag any earlier than they are supposed to anyway. So, where did you get the info?

    TagMan
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Member Posts: 47
    No I don't.

    Of all the claims, the one that had a little bit of value is ... on the Bose lifestyle systems with the really tiny cubes (Jewel cubes) ... the output can be weak in a 1/3 octave band in the lower midrange. I didn't design that system, but it's clear this was a tradeoff for the sake of reducing size. But you know I have a set of high-end mini-monitors that can't reproduce the fundamental of a LOT of string bass notes. I still paid a lot for them, and I still like them for what they are.

    If a system is a weak in a 1/3rd octave ... what does it mean? In this particular case, vocals (male and lower female) may feel like they lack some presence. Take 4dB out of the 160Hz band and Celli start sounding a bit less intimate, male vocals lose a little of the chestiness, but the performance of that speaker system doesn't fall part. It's not as good, but I'd not call it bad just yet.

    Anyway, no excuses. In terms of acoustic performance, that weakness of the smallest Bose jewel cubes is not desireable from an acoustic standpoint. But I can also say not having the bottom frequencies from 20Hz to 30Hz is bad as well. But the value of how bad depends on each person's priorites. The success of the Lifestyle systems means a lot of people don't care too much about that weak area in the lower midrange. I happen not to be one of these people, but I think you go too far to say Bose sells overprice junk. If it were overpriced, it would not sell. If it were junk, it would not have done so well in the market for so many years. Clearly, Bose home products offer a mixture of performance and convenience that appeals to some people. Maybe not you or me, but that doesn't make Bose buyers idiots either.

    I'm anal about cars. I can't stand driving FWD cars (even Civic Si's and Acura TL's). The cost to have a separate set of winter and summer tires/wheels is small price to pay to have RWD. But I have friends who think the TL is the perfect sports sedan. Is Acura guilty of selling a load of baloney to consumers? Am I an anal auto-phile who's sense of value is way out in left field. Neither. Some people put the value of FWD convenience higher than the driving control of RWD.

    It's all about differences in individual priorities. That's why we have Audi/BMW and Mercedes. All find cars, but all very different in character and performance.

    John Feng
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Member Posts: 47
    I think a BMW NA representative said it best when I was complaining about a total system failure of the ABS/Stability control on my BMW (it was literally 4 months out of warranty). She said, ever so politely, "Sir, BMW considers that within normal wear and tear for this type of car." What she was really saying to me is, "If you like our cars enough, you'll put up the lousy reliability. If not, please go buy something else." There it is ... regardless of the abundance or lack of awards, if the car does the right things enough for you to overlook its shortcomings ... buy it. My wife wouldn't touch a BMW with a 10ft pole, but I can't seem to kick the BMW habit.

    John Feng
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That type of attitude is going to be a big liability in the futuret. Reminds me of the CBS exec that dissed Simon Cowell when he was shopping American idol around 5 years ago. Her comment to Simon on his second visit was a very abbrasive one that went something like this: "you seem to have misunderstood me the first time, we are not interested in your show, it has no potential whatsoever, find another network". He did and the rest is history. Never underestimate and never think you know it all. BMW will learn the hard way at some point unless that attitude changes.

    Tagman - just did the math on Microsoft. Market Cap $224bln, cash on hand $47bln, annualized earnings $13bln. Net the cash against the market cap and the company is trading at a 13.6 PE (trailing) and probably under 12X on future earnings. This may be the best high end blue chip value play we'll ever see. Wall Street has lost its mind.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wall Street has lost its mind.

    Won't be the first time. I mentioned to you before that I had freed up a considerable sum of cash when I reduced my equity position. Looking over these recent days, I am glad that I did so, and at some point I will be buying back in.

    Thanks for the info on Microsoft. I am already an owner, but sounds like more might be in order based upon your info.

    I just love Wal-Mart, BTW, and own a bunch, and I'm going to check out the data on it again soon. I'll keep you posted.

    Also, quite some time ago, when the Lexus fans were warning of Mercedes' doom because of the upcoming LS, I had posted that I thought BMW was more vulnerable than MB from Lexus and no one seemed to think so. I still think that BMW is vulnerable in the long run.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    As has been said countless times before, Lexus can't make BMWs, or cars of that ilk, so BMW should be safe from Lexus.

    BMW makes performance cars with a dash of luxury, Mercedes is prestigious and luxurious, with a dash of sport, and Lexus just makes really strong cars that they know Americans want.

    I think they will all prosper, in spite of each other, because they all hit the market at different angles and perspectives.

    Mercedes has the prestigious heritage, so that helps.
    BMW has the legendary sporting heritage.
    Lexus has built a solid, sterling foundation, and is still evolving and growing as a company, so that is an asset.

    The only way these companies will capsize is arrogance, or complacency. They are too good, and too far ahead of the competition to suffer any real damage due to attrition.

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The declines posted by MB and BMW from 05 to 06 are almost appalling. I wonder what accounts for the declines?

    I wonder too. MB going from 5th to way below average in one year is just plain bull chips IMO. There is no way that MB had that many problem again after making some strides just a year ago. I know the R-Class has been a problem, but I'm not sure about the M-Class or CLS, those being the only "new" models for the 2006 model year. For some reason Lexusguy's link isn't working now, but earlier I read some of it in which they said that they changed some of the criteria and that some of the lower ranked brands didn't have many "mechanical" problems, but scored lower because of their control interfaces or something like that????? That is why I think these surveys are next to complete nonsense. Some will read (more like glance) at this and conclude like they always do that the cars that score below average spend their lives on the side of the road or in the service bay. One year Porsche is 5 places from the bottom and the next they are #1? I would love to see what those new questions/criteria are.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As has been said countless times before, Lexus can't make BMWs, or cars of that ilk, so BMW should be safe from Lexus.

    See? Just like before. Every time I indicate that BMW is vulnerable from Lexus, it gets the same old response.

    I understand your post and it has tremendous validity. It's a great post. It really is, and I would have totally agreed with it forever up until this last year, and certainly from an historic point of view, but times are changing, and so is my opinion and outlook for BMW's sedans. Look at the IS from Lexus. Even the powerful seller, the 3-Series is under attack. It is not a Mercedes that is vulnerable from the IS.

    What about the NEW GS, Lexus's "performance" car? Do you think a Mercedes is under attack? I don't. Only the LS poses the real threat to Mercedes, IMO, at least as far as cars go, because we're not talking SUV's now.

    The new GS and new LS will take some sales from BMW, IMO. As the performance and styling increase for Lexus over the years, BMW is vulnerable.

    A Lexus sports car, however, is still an unanswered question that only time will tell. So far there is NO threat at all from Lexus in this arena, but I doubt that the void will last too much longer.

    This is one area, BTW, that I predict BMW will IMPROVE actually. The upcoming Z6 or Z8, depending upon which name they actually use, will be the first true challenger to the Mercedes SL, IMO, and it will help solidify BMW's foothold in the sports car arena.

    But the sedans . . . that's where I still see some upcoming vulnerability of BMW. We'll just have to see. I truly believe that Lexus has placed BMW in its crosshairs, and to not see it is being asleep at the switch, or at a minimum, naive.

    TagMan
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