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Comments
The GS is a lost cause against the 5-Series, it isn't even close.
BMW has long despised the Mercedes SL due to is success in that price bracket and its longevity, but they've yet to come with anything even remotely close, though the Z8 was a match for most SL models in performance. This time though I think they're serious. I like the idea of a Z6 better than them using "Z8" again. I hope the car comes to market before the next SL so MB can yet wallop their SL intender again with a new SL, say around 2010-11.
M
And I do think it will attract BMW buyers. They are not ALL die-hard performance nuts. Those that are will stay with BMW. Those with less of a requirement might make the switch.. . . especially as the gap closes.
TagMan
TagMan
Lexus GT450: Green-lighted for Oct 2007 release as an MY2008. 4.5L V10 500HP w/6MT (semi-auto), RWD, front-engine mounted. 12,000 rpm. Top speed close to 200mph. Priced at Y15Million - Y20Million (do the math @ ~Y100 = $1)
LS600hL: March 2007 release, as an early MY2008. AWD standard, 430HP, 5L V8. Priced at Y12M. Well, there u have it folks - price and release timeline from Japan source. FWIW, its priced cheaper than the S500L which retails for Y14M here in Japan.
LX550/LC140 series: Coming out March 2007, as an early MY2008. 5.5L V8 395HP (US-spec), or 4.7L 380HP LC (Japan-spec). The LC version in Japan will retail for Y6M. Price for the US Lexus version not known yet. Looks horrible, IMO. Unless you thirst for power, buy the current version. It sucks, style-wise, all IMO, of course. I know I'll be keeping my '03 LX470 for awhile now.
2008 Toyota Supra: Yes, folks it seems its coming real soon. Comes with the 4.6L V8 motor spec-ed out to be in the 380-400HP range output. Looks real sweet.... Gorgeous from the rear (no front view shown). If you go by looks and power, the Nissan GT-R should stomp all over it, but we'll see. My money is on the Nissan tho', sorry DrFill.
2008 Nissan GT-R: This is a monster of a car. Comes with a 3.7L v6 Turbo-charged, putting down a whopping 450HP to the pavement, and getting to 60 from a standstill in like 4 tics. Price set to ~Y8M (do the math folks). Gets here October 2007. Let the salivating begin in ernest... This car will take the US shores with a storm, that's my prediction. It looks great !!!!!
2008 Honda NSX: AWD, V10, 450-500HP, 6AT. No release date firmed up yet. This car sitting next to the GT-R is a mild-mannered, timid looking sports car. Period. The GT-R is that good-looking folks.
2008 Nissan Z370: Horrible-looking freshened Z, now with a 3.7L V6 rated at 330-350HP. Nothing much to inspire the soul to want one, IMO.
2008 Crown Majesta: This car was styled in the mold of the MB CLS. And I tell you, its a darn close match to the CLS, but looks quite nice, once you get past the copy thingy. The rear is not as droopy as the CLS, nor does it make rear passengers claustophobic. A nicer-looking variant of the CLS, IMO. Very nicely done by Toyota... Even spots the motor in the LS, and is similar to the LS460 in size. But priced real well at Y6Million - Y8Million, almost half the price of the 600hL. A steal, if you ask me. I'd even consider buying this car over the LS460 at this price.
2008 Crown Royal: Has the V6 3.5L 315HP DOHC motor, and is priced at Y3.5Million - Y6Million. This is the baby-LS looking car from front, but does not have the integrated exhaust into bumper rear, as in the LS and Majesta. Not a bad looking car, but don't expect to see one in the US, like forever... so my Japanese friends tell me. Sorry, Garyh.
Pics to follow when I get back to the US.
Oac are you a Pharmacokineticist, PK/PD or are you into drug discovery and structural biology area.
I am a computational chemist by training. Up until last year, I hung around hard-core geeks in CADD (discovery & H2L, mostly) who are more at home with workstations than with work-people (if you get my drift)
BMW makes performance cars with a dash of luxury, Mercedes is prestigious and luxurious, with a dash of sport, and Lexus just makes really strong cars that they know Americans want.
I think they will all prosper, in spite of each other, because they all hit the market at different angles and perspectives.
Mercedes has the prestigious heritage, so that helps.
BMW has the legendary sporting heritage.
Lexus has built a solid, sterling foundation, and is still evolving and growing as a company, so that is an asset.
The only way these companies will capsize is arrogance, or complacency. They are too good, and too far ahead of the competition to suffer any real damage due to attrition.
DrFill, Excellent summation and analysis. Sorry Tag, I gotta agree with Doc here. For now, only Nissan/Infiniti poses a threat to BMW, not Lexus/Toyota. BTW, I still believe that Lexus' main target is MB altho' if you listen to Toyota execs, you'd think otherwise. But if you look closely at the results of their releases, you'd see MB is still in their bulls-eye. The IS is the only car in the Lexus arsenal even remotely posing any competition to BMW. Yeah, I know LG will say the GS430, but huh ! Maybe someone would put a GS450h against a 530i or 545i, and it'd get smoked. Until Lexus disables the VDIM and puts in a stick in the GS, it will never mount any serious BMW threat.
MB was no doubt being hurt by all the new models over the past year.
I do agree with you however IQS tend to be more varied than LQS.
You really believe that ? Honestly i think Toyota/Lexus is pulling their punches in many markets to avoid an undeserved backlash. I think Lexus can engineer exactly what they want - when they want. They have a long term strategy to slowly establish themselves in certain niches.
I do agree that not all BMW buyers are car nuts so there is something to your point, Lexus may get more of the BMW posers maybe???
Yep I've seen it. I think BMW has had enough practice (Z8,850i) to get it right this time. Thing is a new SL is due somewhere around that sime time frame, and arguably Mercedes puts their best effort into the SL so its going to be another usual BMW vs. MB galactic battle.
M
Also, oac, thanks for the kind words.
doc - glad to say "I told you so" on the Supra!
merc - The July Road and Track pits the GS450h against the 550i. Just the fact that the headline reads " Lexus GS 450H challenges BMW 550i" is a boost for Lexus as it places the GS in the same ball field . . . even if it loses . . . which it does. The upside to the GS is that the article is SO flattering to the GS. At one point the article says "The GS 450h offers tremendous upside and virtually no downside."
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I don't disagree with you and the others about the fundamental differences between Lexus and BMW. I'm darn clear about that. I'm trying to point out that I believe (and maybe I'm the only one who does) that Lexus will increasingly encroach on BMW territory as time goes, and that we are now only at the very beginning of this process. The upcoming Lexus GT450 that oac reports to us is just another indication that Lexus will become more known for performance over time.
merc - I would consider MB's response to the Z6 might be a more civilized (and affordable) variant of the SLR.
TagMan
Only if you want a gladiator grill with slit eyes for headlights.
That upcoming Mercedes GL diesel is looking better all the time!
TagMan
$500 can buy you a 5 channel setup from NHT, complete with thick, interally braced MDF cabinets, hand-polished laquer finishes, high quality 5-way binding posts, polypropylene woofers with butyl surrounds (there is NO good reason to use foam other than to cut costs) fluid cooled, aluminum tweeters with neodymium magnets, and high quality x-over networks allowing for 70hz-22khz +\- 3db for all channels.
How can they offer so much for so little? NHT doesn't have a name like Bose that can automatically sell products. They can't rest on their laurels, and sell the same fundamentally flawed speaker for the last 40 years. They have to fight for every sale with the dozens and dozens of other speaker companies out there.
If it were overpriced, it would not sell.
You're giving the average consumer WAY to much credit there. With enough slick marketing, you can sell ice to the Eskimos for $1000 a cube. Just ask Noel Lee and the "Monster" crew.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that buy the Lifestyle products for the size and convenience, and are willing to make the trade-off versus sound quality compared to what they could get from NHT for less money. However, I think there are at least as many people that don't know there are much better sounding and much lower priced alternatives, and buy Bose because they heard on TV that it was good.
The comparison to cars doesn't really work. Acura is able to cut build costs on the TL compared to BMW or Mercedes because they use the FWD, mass-market Accord platform. Acura makes no attempts to hide that fact though, and they pass those savings on to the consumer, who can then decide whether the dynamics of a 3 series is worth the extra cash. With Bose vs. the example NHT system though, you are paying more money for less performance with Bose.
This car is the most interesting of the lot. First, they have to do something about that pricing in the US market, or no one will buy it. Its got to be on the same price level as the E63 and M5. Second, whoever the magicians are that can get the GS platform to actually perform at that level, get them to work on the regular versions of the car, and the IS! I want to see "GT sport packages" for the regular lineup. An ultra high performance halo car is great, but it doesn't do much if Lexus keeps the regular GS as it is now.
Also, Wal-Mart may have just recently come down enough to buy more. For now, I'm just keeping an eye on it.
TagMan
but he makes some very good points. Kind of like my neighbor being so proud of his new 300C because it's better than my 540i. Maybe he has a good point?
http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm
John Feng
For a car comparison, its like the Scion xA. Its cutesy, small, practical, and I'm sure women think they are adorable. Then suppose Toyota spent millions on fancy trademarks and marketing, and charged $50,000. See the issue? There's no correlation of price-to-performance, no "value", no "you get what you pay for".
The article basically says that most people have no interest in good sound, (which is true, look at the sucess of the iPod), and Bose builds products for those people, with enough marketing to get absolutely as much cash out of those people as possible, after all, what do they know?
This bit stuck out at me though, especially from someone with years of experience building drivers and speakers:
Have a close listen to all those non-Bose $600 speakers on the showroom floor, and they all sound similar because most speaker manufacturers know how to get a reasonably flat frequency response.
Thats blatantly untrue. No pre-amp, amplifier, CD player, DAC, line conditioner, or any other component comes even close to making the amount of impact in terms of how a system will sound than the choice of loudspeaker.
....This year for the first time, J.D. Power divided the publicly published results into two categories: design quality, measuring things like the usefulness of dashboard displays and controls, and production quality, which measures the level of defects and malfunctions. Based on the two different categories, Porsche had 49 defect or malfunction problems and 35 design problems per 100 vehicles. BMW, in contrast, had 82 design problems and 52 defect or malfunction problems, per 100 vehicles. Problems with the new 3 series, in particular, dragged BMW down.
The survey itself has been totally redesigned this year, for the first time since 1998. The aim was to make it more relevant to the vehicles on the road today, which are loaded with high-tech features ranging from DVD players to navigation systems and have faster production cycles, as well as to help car makers better identify problems with these models.
The new survey, based on questionnaire responses from 63,607 buyers and lessees of new 2006 models, asked about 217 specific problems, ranging from rear DVD-system playback to loose molding to peeling paint. That's up from 135 problems previously queried. And the questions were more detailed than in the past, asking, for instance, if "a navigation system freezes up" rather than if it's just "not working properly."
....Joe Ivers, executive director of quality and customer-satisfaction research for J.D. Power, says that his own analysis shows that the changes in rankings weren't due to the different questions being asked, but rather could be explained by changes in the vehicle lineup.
The success of Porsche, which jumped to No. 1 in the nameplate rankings, can be partly attributed to the totally new Cayman mid-engine hard-top sports car, which came in at the top of the compact premium sporty car segment. In addition, the German car maker made a number of quality improvements to its Cayenne sport-utility vehicle.
"We study the results of quality studies ... and we go to the factory and make changes," says Tony Fouladpour, Porsche spokesman....
The sudden and large-scale re-positioning of the study's results is an indication that either the previous study provided erroneous results, or the current one does. What does that say for JDP's credibility? In REAL life, the manufacturer's didn't SUDDENLY have massive changes with their initial quality.
So, only one thing is TRULY evident here . . . last year's and this year's studies contradict one another, and they can't BOTH be correct. Since JDP is a company that should understand statistics, then they should KNOW that so many major shifts in positions are statistically unlikely . . . meaning that either previous studies were wrong, or the current one is wrong.
Regardless of which study is tainted, it is PATHETIC, IMO.
SHAME ON JD POWERS for having so much influence with corrupt statistical data, only to further have it be unfairly used by the undeserving winners of the study, and for the blight and stigma suffered by those losers that didn't deserve it.
TagMan
I don't think it is that ludicruous because they are still measuring things that matter to the customer. That these issues are subjective I don't find important in itself...if a design issue is important to half the people and not the other half, it is presumably reflected accordingly (i.e., will hurt a company less than if 100% of customers experienced the same defect/malfunction).
However it would have been helpful for JDP to produce a separate set of rankings that measured just the defects/malfunctions.
They are supposed to be measuring initial quality, and to include subjective material into that mix skews the definition of initial quality either this year or last year, because now there are TWO DIFFERENT definitions for initial quality.
However it would have been helpful for JDP to produce a separate set of rankings that measured just the defects/malfunctions.
HELPFUL is an understatement.
SEPERATE is EXACTLY what should have happened to have a legitimate and statistically viable study . . . especially coming off the heels of previous year's studies.
You just can't have two totally different studies claimed to be the same, with the same title, and get two totally different results and claim that they are both accurate . . . unless you are Joe Ivers working for JD Powers!
TagMan
It says that they now have VERY different winners and losers, who have with rare exception, done NOTHING different.
Sorry, but the auto industry is a multi-billion dollar industry that deserves better than a B.S. study.
TagMan
The fact is JD Power is a big business where maximizing profits is their main concern.
Whatever you want to say about Consumers Union, at least they don't allow and hence, charge, manufacturers for using their ratings.
JD Powers makes a huge amount of money in charging auto manufacturers for using their ratings in their advertising.
Not much integrity here, IMO.
Looks like the new 3-series brought them down.
Looks like Toyota and Honda have a serious threat in Hyundai.
Well, when one company turns up the heat, we consumers can only benefit as the other manufacturers step up to the challenge.
I wonder if they are brazen enough to turn out a $60-70k HELM.
Now that really would be aggressive!
"SHAME ON JD POWERS for having so much influence with corrupt statistical data,..."
You know what they say about statistics - its like a bikini, is it covering up or is it revealing much ???
I guess one thing to take away from such study is maybe glean some trends, like Hyundai's steady but sure improvement in quality products, Porsche's ascension back into their natural position of good and solidly reliable products, and Toyota/Honda's threatened perch at the top of these reliability surveys. Otherwise, the individual positions may not mean that much.
Unfortunately for Hyundai, they cant do much of anything right now with the chairman in jail.
LG, I am not sure I agree with the comparisons you make here. The M5/E63 are 2-door coupes, while the GT450 is a real sports car. The GT450 goes up against cars like the SL, Carrera, etc... and hence priced within that range. Besides, these may be Japanese prices, and the US price may differ.
Second, whoever the magicians are that can get the GS platform to actually perform at that level, get them to work on the regular versions of the car, and the IS! I want to see "GT sport packages" for the regular lineup.
You may get your wish cos this "GT" may be the tuning arm Lexus promised for all these new L-Finesse releases. One sentiment that came across while I was out here and chatting with several people was echoed by a poster yesterday - that Toyota/Lexus has to thread carefully not to get a huge anti-Toyota backlash of their success, at a time most other auto companies are hurting. Recall the history of the Japan/US auto relationships of the early 70s ? Toyota/Lexus can do anything they want, but won't do anything they want...
To the extent that they do this, imho it would not be by producing products that weren't as good as they could make them; that wouldn't be helpful to longterm brand building. Rather, it would be by pricing higher than they could, so as to not take too much share too fast and be accused of taking US jobs.
Call it the Ken Lay effect.
Hyundai seems to be aiming its sights squarely at Toyota's Camry and Avalon with the Sonata and Azera, respectively.
Can an LS challenge be far behind?
Hyundai seems to be aiming its sights squarely at Toyota's Camry and Avalon with the Sonata and Azera, respectively.
Can an LS challenge be far behind?
Sorry, this is wishful thinking in a 5-yr time frame. You don't get to a HELM just that quickly. And Hyundai, for all its success still remains a notch below the CamCords, in price and perception. It gotta go way over the top to even remotely challenge any Lex brand, certainly NOT an LS. Not by a long shot. For now, it can mount a serious competition to the Camry and Avalon, but its still not a huge dent, considering the new styles of the Toyotas and their continued success in the market. The Elantra made attempts at the Corolla and Civic, and got its hinny handed to it. The Azerra and Sonata are fine products, for a Hyundai, but still not yet up there, at least in the general market perception.
"Sorry, this is wishful thinking in a 5yr time frame. You don't get to a HELM just that quickly.."
HMM? Wasn't it in 1989 when Toyota had not ONE HELM in NA and deciding to come up with Lexus, with LS400 and ES250? And this was all supposed to be done in a timeframe of 2 years?
Hyundai has a high-luxury in it's homeland, called the Dynasty. It is RWD and has 300-hp+ V-8. If I were you, I wouldn't short change this company so fast.
BTW: Since the Elantra got canned, then why does it rate higher than the Civic, Jetta, and Mazda 3?">link title And they sell a boatload of these things, and it's platform mate the Kia Spectra. It may not be as polished as the benchmark cars(IMO, the car outright chokes the long-in-the-tooth Corolla), but it sure does stack up well.
And with Hyundai getting into the major's(big family car market with the Azera, and next with the premium market midsize next year with RWD/280+hp V-6), the company definetely has earned respect from me, particularly since it was just a short 10 years ago(maybe shorter) when the Hyundai was akin to the Yugo.
So will it take them more than 5yrs to build an American acceptable HELM? At the rate they're going, I don't think so.
Gotta happen sometime
HMM? Wasn't it in 1989 when Toyota had not ONE HELM in NA and deciding to come up with Lexus, with LS400 and ES250? And this was all supposed to be done in a timeframe of 2 years?
Blkhemi: I do respect your posts and knowledge, so permit me to disagree with you, somewhat, as well.
When Toyota introduced Lexus in 1989, it was leveraging on a history and reputation of Toyota's solid build quality and reliability. The Corolla was a staunch staple of low-end compact buyers, the LC was legendary for its solid build and off-road prowress, and the Camry was inching up the steep curve of family sedan leadership. OTOH, what does Hyundai have that could shoot them through the warp space of acceptability: The Sonata - a blatant copy of an Accord, tho' solid build, quality of materials still look dated and subpar, but acceptable at its price point. The SUVs are all copy-cats, no originality whatsoever. The Azerra is too new to make a dent in anything for now. That market is owned by the Avalon, Buick, and Ford.
So Hyundai needs to be fighting on many fronts:
Small-midsized SUV - against Rav4/Highlander/RX/4Runner, etc.
Minivan - against T&C, Sienna, Oddy, etc
Family sedan - against Camry, Accord, the perennial leaders, new Fusion, etc
Full-size sedan - against Avalon, Lucerne, Ford 500, Chrysler 300, etc..
And this does not include starting a luxury arm... Honda and Nissan, despite their reputations, have not found Toyota/Lexus' level of success in the HELM space, what's gonna make Hyundai overcome the huge challenges of the likes of Lexus, BMW, MB, Audi, Jag, etc...? Does Hyundai even have the deep pockets required to battle the big boys ? And what reputation does it have beyond SKorea and the US ? At least Toyota is everywhere in the world, more or less - Africa, Asia, Europe, America, Australia, Middle East.
Hyundai challenging in HELM in 5 years ???? I don't see this happening in a 5-yr time frame. Not that it cannot happen, just the timeline is where I disagree with.
JD Powers - Too bad they don't summarize comps in the sole areas where last years cars were rated. At least that way we'd get an apples to apples vs. last year.
Al zarqawi - I didn't catch the exact time of death, particularly given the time zone differences. Is it possible he died on June 6, 2006? If so that would be something.
I agree. Hyundai is still trying to properly place itself and Kia in the market. A new badge in 5 years? Foggetaboutit. Just as with the total faiure that was the Mazda\Amati project, its way too early for Hyundai to be thinking about starting a luxury brand.
I also agree.
Given that the Azera is now the fastest Korean car, I would expect that more luxury and even more performance will come from Hyundai over the next few years. And, of course, they can milk that twisted JDP IQ study with some aggressive advertising. If everything goes according to plan, they can introduce a premium vehicle, but not a HELM, and see how it does. Assuming it does well . . . a HELM in about 7 to 8 years, IMO.
Remember, though, the CHINESE are coming! That will also potentially shift the "Asian equation". Kinda has a ring to it, doesn't it?
TagMan
I already marked it down on my calendar.
By then the siege should be well-under way as JD Power overwhelmingly picks the $85,000 Hyundai Crown-Prince as its best tested vehicle ever.
It will have so much trunk room, it will become the vehicle of choice for smuggling illegals across from Tijuana to San Diego.
Sounds, at best, redundant to factor such subjective criteria into a statistical study based on vehicle quality.
DrFill
"First time I'm right?" Gee, thanks for nothing. :P
or . . .
First time you agree with me? Which makes you right for the FIRST time!
TagMan