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Comments
M
Regarding Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Maserati, etc., I didn't count those as I consider these exotic sports car companies, and not luxury car marques like Mercedes and BMW. I think there should be a distinction between the mainstream luxury marques and the exotic niche marques.
There is, its called a higher tier, the highest tier possible.
Cadillac, Acura, Infinit, and Audi can handle the 2nd-tier, but each has significant flaws the Top-tiers do not which limit their growth.
Again this stacks the deck in favor of Lexus, BMW and Mercedes, not really fair to just look at sales or lack thereof and automatically put the rest of these brands on a lesser tier.
M
M
I saw one the other day on the road. It's quite possibly the most gorgeous car I've ever seen in my life. I was having a hard time keeping my eyes where they needed to be because I couldn't stop staring/drooling at it!
Good to know that you have excellent taste . . . one more thing to like about you.
Are you also referring to the Quattroporte? The Q is stunning, and awaits a smoother tranny, which is forthcoming.
TagMan
You're making my point for me. IS IT COMMANDING $70-140k for it's vehicles? How many sales do you think makes an Audi a legitimate market contender? 100? 1000?
Using sales as a criteria? What a foolish concept!
Why would I judge a car company on it's ability to sell cars?
Lexus, in our cloudy definition of HELM, probably is NOT an HELM. It doesn't sell $70-100k cars.
EXCEPT IN PERCEPTION, it IS AN HELM, to the average luxury car buyer! Especially the "NEW MONEY" lux buyer. In the biggest car market on Earth, the United States, it has earned a HELM PERCEPTION! Quality, marketing, awards, word of mouth.
Whats even more telling is, if you were to buy a Lexus, at this point, you'd expect the car to be virtually perfect! That's the perception. And the cars/trucks are
just about matching that perception!
That's HELM, to me. When you can talk the talk, and walk the walk, and your customers follow you like you're the Almighty. They toot your horn harder than you do! THAT'S HELM!
If this wasn't the case, Lexus would be Infiniti, not Lexus.
This is just an APPRAISAL, a State-of-the-Union, if you will, of the US HELM market.
If Audi is big in France, but can't hack it in the US, what does that say about Audi?
If I play in the CFL, and I set records and win championships, then I come to the NFL, and I can't get on the field and become Doug Flutie, who is a nice stgoing to the Hall of Fame?
That's all I'm sayin'. Audi is good, but, if you're an American, Audi doesn't sit at the Lexus, Mercedes, BMW table. Audi is good, but so is Cadillac, and Acura, and Infiniti, and Jaguar.
Coffee is for CLOSERS Only!
If you guys want to put Mazerati, Bugatti, Veyron, Mosler, Saleen, Lambo, Ferrari, Aston Martin into the HELM category, that's up to you, but I think it takes more than a high price tag, a one or two car lineup, and 10k sales a year to be a HELM.
These are exotics, in my eyes. Smaller, exclusive builders, not to be compared to companies with 10-15 car lineups.
It's easy to make one car, give it a sexy style, 500HP, and then say I'm better than any BMW or Lexus. That doesn't impress me at all! That is a niche marque, or just one great car.
A HELM, to me, has to address sales, marketing, a full lineup. Actually be a car company, not a mother protecting her only child. Actually engage the marketplace and compete for sales.
If I build 1 car, with 700HP, and charge $150k, and sell 5k of them, am I a HELM?
My definition is successfully selling vehicles, IN THE US, the major league, at over $50k, and having a viable chance to take sales away from BMW and Mercedes, the original HELMs.
Lexus is doing that now, and will do more of that starting next year. Lexus went straight to the Majors, and hit like Albert Pujols! And they'll only get better.
Audi has a mediocre rep here in the States. How many ways can this be understood? Sales, quality surveys, competitive comparisons, resale values, days supply? They're not a HELM here.
Audi can be a HELM in Europe. Congrats!
Would you rather own Lexus or Audi? BMW or Audi?
I'm a Mets fan. I LOVE THE METS! But when the Yankees come to town, they're the big dog, and I have to prove myself to them, not the other way around.
And I hate them because of that. That and their 189m payroll!
DrFill
So to use your analogy then (whereby you have disqualified Audi as a HELM), the Mets certainly do not qualify to be an official MLB team. :P
TagMan
That would make the Mets a tier below the Yankees. That doesn't mean the Mets aren't in the majors. They ARE a step below the Yankees. Need to win some more titles, sell more merchandise. Win a World Series against them, before people say the Mets are on the Yankees level.
Everybody knows the Yankees are the Yankees (Elite).
The Mets are fun and Amazin', but they aren't an Elite team. But I love them anyway.
I never said Audi hasn't made it to the majors. That would make them Sterling, or Peugout.
They just haven't LED the majors! Lexus, BMW, Mercedes are the leaders, predators, Alpha-males, however you want to put it.
They are the CLOSERS! Like Mariano Rivera. They close.
DrFill
Looks like you can add another "get out of jail free card" to your collection.
Boxster, Cayman, Cheyenne, 911, and the upcoming Panamerica (sic) sedan makes an impressive arsenal!
DrFill
buyer" Who by lose definition knows nothing about cars, has more money than taste, and therefore buys cars like Lexus?
With all due respect, that's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
I very much doubt whether in this century there will be an ultra-luxury asian brand, and I am not sure how long
Lexus, acura and infiniti will last. Until 1987 it used to be very clear. "European and North American" Luxury and Asian econoboxes. Now, there is some overlap, only because of Lexus. What is really amazing is despite being an asian brand lexus somehow against all odds and all ridicule worked its way to the HELM. It says something about how good they are.
lexus and Audi make far better cars and one would like to think.
Really . . . then you agree Audi is a HELM. Good.
And BTW, FYI, the new upcoming Porsche 4-door is called the Panamera.
TagMan
Heritage is great and all, but if you're making 2nd-tier cars today, does it really matter what you built 20 years ago?
The buyers make the rules.
DrFill
It depends on how they price it. If they think they can get $60K for the V8, they are dreaming.
Lexus has NO heritage to speak of, and only recently does it even BARELY with ONE model remotely qualify to be considered as a HELM.
On the other hand, Jaguar with its legendary gorgeous styling and heritage and status certainly qualifies MORE than Lexus by a country mile. The XJ was rated pretty darned high in the previous AND current JDP IQ study which you seem to think is valid, but more realistically just one look at the Portfolio and there is absolutely no question. Heck, when I was a kid, I played with a toy Jaguar XKE, and thought is was the most beautiful car in the world, and it very well might have been. Where was Lexus then?
Audi has a global name for itself that Lexus is a long ways away from. Audi builds one of the best interiors at ANY price. They have a history. Just like your "amazin Mets". Remember 1969? Long time ago, hey Doc? Now you have a love/hate realtionship with them.
Can you even imagine anyone ever being driven by a chauffeur in a Lexus? It's laughable.
TagMan
Are you the 3rd or 4th person in a row who has misread my recent posts?
Never said Lexus has a superior heritage. But the heritage they are currently building, here in the US, may be unparalleled. Just ask the market.
Ask a Lexus owner would he rather have Audi's heritage, or a Lexus LS.
And where did you get love/hate of the Mets from my post?
DrFill
Doc, your magic elixir is ever potent. That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard.
Moreover, what was the reason or reckoning for starting this discussion? Was it something you read on Audi and the others, or did the unmatched quality of Audi scare the living daylights out of you? This personal attack on one of the world's most prestigous car companies is just flat old. Everytime someone like myself brings up Audi on this thread, something negative is said without holding merit. Most people on this forum have probably not even sat in a late generation Audi, let alone driven one.
2nd tier? Only to the picky and underacheiving US critics. Most Europeans and far East people would absolutely think you're nutz for putting a Lexus over an Audi. Audi as a company actually brings more technology to the table than most of it's competitors. Resale values? Compare an '04 LS430(non-ULTRA) and an '04 S430 against a stripped '04 A8. See which one wins.
I don't know what it takes in your view to be a HELM. But to most people that know anything about cars knows that Audi is a very credible player here.
What vehicles hold their value best? Those shown below are the top performers in their respective classes.
Top Winners by Class:
Class Highest Ranked
Base Sport Volkswagen GTI 1.8T (Manual)
Compact Toyota Corolla CE (Manual)
Full-Size Van Chevrolet Express 2500 Cargo Van
Intermediate Utility Lexus RX 400h AWD
Large Toyota Avalon Touring
Large Pickup Ford F350 Super Duty Crew Cab XL 2WD DRW Short Bed
Luxury Lexus LS 430
Source: Intellichoice.
Sorry to use such current information. Maybe 2006 is an abhoration.
DrFill
Saying Audi isn't at the top of the food chain vs. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, is no sign of disrespect, IMO.
Audi/VW has a lot of ability, but you make it sound like Audi should rest on laurels built far outside of the US.
I don't think US buyers see this comapny as comparable to the leaders. Over the last 20 years, here, it hasn't distinguished itself, other than a purveyor of Quattro, which doesn't serve all customers as a great value. It's a good car company, chasing they greatest luxury marques in the world.
DrFill
He's talking America and in America that is the way it is like it or not - Lexus over Audi - and on top of that it's about as close as Secretariat's Belmont victory and the gap is about to widen further in the next few years.
No, Doc - you are coming in loud and clear. According to your recent posts -
. . . you LOVE (no hate) the Mets.
. . . on 5th Avenue in NY - people will sit in the back seat of anything for gosh sakes.
. . . and you've actually sat in an Audi (also in the back seat?).
But the rest of it is still the same . . . you are sounding as though you are depriving or disqualifying Audi to a large extent of its deserved place as a HELM, and that you are also over qualifying Lexus to some extent. You have inferred that Audi's heritage is not as meaninful as the heritage that Lexus is now in the process of building.
If you will read my original posts on this, it was I who was the very first poster (after merc's original "tier post") to acknowledge Lexus as a HELM . . . and believe me - not everyone here thinks Lexus deserves to be considered a HELM! You, however, will not acknowledge that Audi is a genuine HELM, even though you think Lexus is, and your perspective is, IMO, short-sighted to say the least.
If I am misunderstanding you, then I apologize. So, to make it easier for me, just go ahead and say point blank that "Audi is a HELM." Repeat after me, "Audi is a HELM".
TagMan
As I've said before, Lexus probably is not a textbook HELM, but has earned 1st-tier, below Ultra-tier, HELM status in the US. Hard to ask Lexus to show more aptitude here in the States.
I haven't seen this Audi emergence. In 20 years, haven't seen signs of greatness. I wish them all the best.
DrFill
No this is different. What you are doing is holding up a red crayon and trying to tell us it’s blue.
With regard to pricing, I am going by what has happened in the past several years. Porsche didn’t start discounting until the end of 03. It’s hard to imagine otherwise now, but the motto you always got at a Porsche dealership previously was “Porsche doesn’t discount, period.” You might have gotten a goodwill $400 discount but that was it.
It is said that Porsche overproduced so they had to discount. But if you ask me, some genius came along and convinced them that if they changed their rigid production and pricing policy they would, duh, make more money. Don’t forget, Porsche’s current success is just that—current. They were teetering on the brink many times until the Boxster came along to help pay the rent and then Cayenne really launched them onward and upward. At one point before the spike in fuel prices Cayenne was responsible for almost 60% of their sales.
It has also been said that Porsche still loathes discounting and is curbing production to maintain retail but I think the genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. They are still reticent with 911 discounting and I think everything they do with the Boxster and Cayman is partially designed to keep the 911 on a pedestal, hence their reluctance to not discount the 911 as much.
With regard to comfort. It really depends on an individual’s tolerance. At 6’ 0’ I feel this is about the limit for my comfort level so I can easily see how someone 6’ 2’ would have a problem. Then again, there are plenty of bigger people who are just too passionate about these cars not to compromise. This topic of height and Porsches periodically comes up on rennlist and there is one going on now called “Any owners over 6’?” Of course you’ll know all that you have to know by just driving it yourself once you’ve nailed the seat adjustment which can take some fidgeting.
Yes Tagman, the side bolsters are tight by design. Of course this is normal for sports cars, and those with athletic builds notice it the most. Ever sit in a Carrera GT? You really feel sport encroaching on the body. This is not a comfortable vehicle in any sense IMO. In addition to the tight seats the footwell is incredibly cramped and the pedals are extremely close, limiting the type of shoes you can wear, not to mention that you have to have a proper driveway, a well calculated plan for getting in and out of fueling stations, and thorough knowledge of the roads you plan to drive on unless you are willing to risk taking out the underside of the car. Such a vehicle comes with a lot of glory but too many hassles to drive on the street. You also have to be careful with the 911 and Boxster in this regard. It does not take much for them to hit bottom. I learned my lesson once pulling into a gas station, luckily only lightly chafing the underside of the plastic front bumper.
You know with all of the glory raining on Porsche these days, I think there are lots of people who don’t really know what a Porsche is. I’m speaking of the non-Cayenne variety of course. Since it is a high-end marque that packs a lot of cachet, many confuse it with luxury. These cars are 180 degrees from luxury. They are feral. Case in point is a friend of mine who had an MB S, Cayenne S and 911 cab. They gave up the 911 and got an SL because he and his wife just couldn’t take the ride.
Most people have Porsches as second and third cars. Very few own them as their only car and daily driver. Anyone who does is a real enthusiast. I’ve driven mine for a week straight but I admit it wears me out after a while and I’m glad to get back into a softer civil vehicle. Negotiating city roads and traffic is no fun in these cars. Anyway, absence makes the heart grow fond so I find it’s best to get away from it for a while, then when you get back it feels fresh.
Merc I think you are giving Porsche too much credit here. BMW is a well-oiled business machine whose growth has been deliberate with rock-steady profits over the long haul. From what I have read, they are a business model and the envy of marketers in and out of the automotive industry due to their steady market share and impeccable branding. Their timing and product diversification plan in the past 5 years has been spectacular.
Porsche on the other hand has had rough goings over the years and has only started to live in a comfort zone since the launch of the Boxster in 97. Cayenne was money from heaven, almost serendipitous and no stroke of genius. Their current reliability status is the icing on the cake but they have a history of FMY problems that are rectified in follow-up years. This has been a pattern with them. 997 and 987 are probably their first cars to have overcome that FMY syndrome so this is a feather in their cap and lives up to Porsche’s edict that excellence is expected (even though it has not always been manifest).
Porsche’s size makes them much more susceptible to market influences, their decision making is sometimes questionable as in the VW stock purchase and they have their eggs in few baskets when it is time to put them in more. I still see them as sort of a rogue company. There but for the grace of the SUV go I. It got them back into racing just recently. And the reason they left racing to begin with? They couldn’t afford it.
BMW seems more predictable and they nailed their platform diversification efforts. What happens with Porsche is anyone’s guess. The Carrera GT was not a resounding success and Panamera is somewhat of a question mark. They plan on making 20K. Want to take a stab at the price? Can they overprice it? Will they overprice it? Cayman has bolstered the 987 line but is not selling gangbusters. What more can be expected from a deuce coupe? The very fact that one SUV could be responsible for over 50% of their sales shows just how small and susceptible they really are and how making sports cars is not exactly the most secure way to make a living. I have to believe they could expand their product line more quickly in a similar manner to what BMW did but they choose not to due to a purist attitude which is ironic considering Cayenne.
They say the rising tide raises all ships. I think Porsche’s current success is a more a result of this than it is marketing competency. In consideration of the blinding luster of the badge, I just think they could be getting more out of it whereas BMW is the savvier of the two and milking it for all it is worth. The time is right for incredible Porsche growth and they don’t seem interested. Too 911-centric. The badge is a gold mine and they are not digging up the ore.
Fact is that both companies are currently riding a wave of success, but given BMW’s consistency through the years and the fact that they are currently the world’s largest maker of premium vehicles, I’d have to award them the business gold without question even though I thoroughly admire the artistic personality, autonomy and DNA of Porsche.
If I do decide on a Cayman S, living in Florida, to obtain a significant price break, I have no problem making a deal up north and driving it back down.
But like I said, a final decision would have to be made about 2 years from now.
Very little traffic where I live.
Being retired, I avoid interstate rush hour situations.
I agree. I couldn't conceive of driving this kind of vehicle in persistent congestion.
It definitely has my attention though.
I'll check one out in about a year.
Thanks.
HELM - High-End Luxury Marque. On the face of it, it could mean many things: cars, companies, exotics, etc. But the HELM we talk about here refers to the CAR, and that's why these cars are clearly listed at the top of this board. By definition, the CAR must be a high-end car, with luxury appointments and should be a marque car. Heritage is only one aspect, not the key factoid...
Now to a clarification: A HELM company can make many HELM cars, but only one HELM car is needed to qualify. Put another way, a car company only needs to make a car that meets these definitions, to become a HELM company.
Audi A8/A8L and A8 W12 are all HELM cars. Ditto Lexus' LS430, soon to be a whole series of LSs - 460/460L/600h/600hL. MB has the S550/S600/S63/S65 as HELM cars in this space, and BMW has the trio of 750i/750iL/760iL. All of these cars fit our HELM definition. Are these cars not high-end ? Yes. Are they not luxurious ? Yes they are. Are they not marque cars ? Yes they are, for each of the car companies.... Absolutely! That is what we are talking about here on this board.
As HELM car makers, MB, Audi and BMW are solid HELM companies by virtue of their HELM stable of cars, however Lexus makes it into the HELM club by virtue of the LS series. Without the LS, Lexus will just be known as the luxury arm of Toyota, much as Infiniti and Acura are today. And that's why these latter companies are NOT included in the HELM player space.
Finally, a word on Merc1's tier structures for HELM. Here I will agree with Doc that we should classify the ultra-high end exotic cars - Lambos, Ferraris, Bugattis, Aston Martins, Bentleys, and Maybach - into the class they truly belong - EXOTIC HELMs. These cars are niche products, sold only to the infinitesimal 0.0001% of the world buyers.... How can we lump these into the mainstream HELM cars which are somewhat affordable for the 99% of the mass population ?
Hope that these definitions and clarifications help.
It should arrive here next Fall.... Wanna check one out ?
The Boxster owners discovered what I found with the BMW 5 seat.
You have to move it forward and then all the way down and then travel back for maximum headroom and legroom.
Interesting threads.
Thanks!
As HELM car makers, MB, Audi and BMW are solid HELM companies by virtue of their HELM stable of cars, however Lexus makes it into the HELM club by virtue of the LS series.
oac - good post, but let's not forget Jaguar, which easily meets your well-explained criteria.
Thanks,
TagMan
And yes, this may be the only thing I agree with the good doc on. I think all of the carmakers you listed above(especially Bentley who's enjoying the best sales on record for the company by virtue of much cheaper priced cars(relatively), mainly the Conti GT 160k, and the FS @ 200k). And with more and more people being able to obtain these uber HELM's, the "tiers" may have to be written over once more.
I think the real issue arose as to the "Tiers of HELM", and where Audi falls in.
Is Audi a 1st-team All-NBA HELM? Is Audi as good, as valuable, as prestigious, as Mercedes, Lexus, BMW?
If you were making a Mt Rushmore of HELMs, pick 4 companies.
Take into consideration that Mt. Rushmore is in America.
I vote Audi wouldn't make it, and Porsche would take a spot, based on it's brand image, quality, and their newly expanded lineup.
Would you rather work for Porsche, or Audi?
DrFill
Audi can be a HELM for YOU. Not a HELM for me.
I wish I could change your mind Doc, but I think oac did a very good job of settling most of these recent tier and HELM debates. Hopefully he had some influence on your point of view regarding Audi.
Either way, I sure enjoyed playing a little ping pong with you. You're a good sport . . . even if you do have Audi misunderstood.
TagMan
I'd probably take Audi over Jaguar, but that's close, as I like the S-Type more than most, even with the J-shifter. Now it offers stick!
DrFill
Doc - If you don't rate Audi as a HELM and you now say that Jaguar is UNDER Audi . . . you are going to ignite another round . . . at least with me. You need to spend just a wee bit of time in the XJ Vanden Plas or the Portfolio. Then, whether you like them or not, you will at least KNOW they are true indisputable HELMS.
TagMan
As far as Audi not being viewed as a HELM in America, I think this speaks to how generally insulated the American world view is, ie if it's not here it doesn't exist. If it doesn't affect me, it doesn't matter. It's strange, such a global society we live in, yet such a small world view still exists, but that seems to be the case. Soccer [football], the Iraq war, case in point.
It's a big world and it would seem to be prudent to look at such thing's with more of a global mind set. I guess that's why the world views us as so arrogant.
It's a big world and it would seem to be prudent to look at such thing's with more of a global mind set. I guess that's why the world views us as so arrogant.
You've got the right idea, and notice how the majority of "Americans" on this forum do indeed see Audi as a HELM.
BTW, the new Porsche's name will be "Panamera".
TagMan
Golden Delicious.
But now it seems the latest area that needs to be clarified is the question of Porsche and the lack of a luxury sedan (at least until the Panamera) and the lack of an official listing at the top of this forum. As GREAT as Porsche is . . . is it a HELM? Let's get a solid answer here.
TagMan
Basically, Inside Line says Audi cars are as good as anyones, but the company is a paragon on mismanagement, and is not highly regarded here in the US because of it.
Can you guys spin that article into a spot on the top of the mountain?
This should be good!
DrFill
So, you are now saying that management is the determining factor? . . . even though the "cars are as good as anyones?
"Audi makes some of the best luxury sedans in the world" is the opening sentence of the article you refer to, for goodness sakes!!!!
Jaguar has been a business nightmare for a long time, yet the XJ, the XJ Vanden Plas and the XJ Portfolio all make Jaguar an indisputable HELM. Notice that Jaguar is on the top of this page, as well as Audi. What does company management have to do with it?
Think about it, Doc. Audi is a HELM, but you don't see it. So instead of trying to convince us all of something you don't see, try to open up your eyes just a little wider.
TagMan
As far as Audi being a step behind Lexus, let's put this into perspective:
Up until recently('06 m/y), the entire Lexus line was very lackluster and in serious need of attention. The IS300 was definetely nothing to write home about, the dull as a B-seg movie GS was very long in the tooth and became wholly undesirable in light of very fresh and entertaining competition(ie: 5-Series, A6, E-Class), despite their first ever major incentives to push them out of the door. The SC gets knocked over by the SL, XK, Porsche Cab, even XLR. And the LS, the very car(matter of fact the only car) that makes them a so-called HELM. Yes, reliable. Yes, sales by the ton. Yes, competitive(price wise). But the car is as fun as watching paint dry, while every single other HELM has at least some sporting variant(BTW: the laughable Euro-Suspension hardly counts).
In typical Lexus fashion, they're almost always late to the game. The new LS will undoubtly bring a fresh face to the game, but a threat to it's main competitor, the S550? Highly doubtful. And the LS600hL may be blazen with technology, but with only 430hp, all it's technology seems superficial. And the fuel econ numbers I've seen aren't anything special, maybe 2 mpg better than the class norm(as a matter of fact, the supposed 18/25 is akin to a Jag XJ, the other "non-HELM car".)
This is in no way discounting Lexus. The brand has addressed most of America's gripes(altho I don't think the LS will have the 7-Series or S550 shaking in their boots). This was meant to show that all of the things you say make a HELM a HELM, some of it for the most part also affects the "top-tier" carmakers. Take a second and just think about it.
Just because you have played with a toy Jag does not mean it is great and a classic. Jag's sporting history is sketchy. It won most of the races during 1950s when europe was in its most pathetic state and they were rebuidling their entire country and not just one city like london.
During the late 80s jag won because of ford and not on its own. So Jag heritage is very doubtful IMO.
I very much doubt Audi's heritage and quality. And all this talk about great interiors is also just talk. I have been in Audi A8 quite a few times. Nothing special, just propaganda.