High End Luxury Cars

designman · June 2006

Basically, Inside Line says Audi cars are as good as anyones, but the company is a paragon on mismanagement, and is not highly regarded here in the US because of it.

Can you guys spin that article into a spot on the top of the mountain?

Mercedes has been mismanaged too. Talk about spin. You're going to spin this until only Lexus is left, and that would just bore the hell out of all of us Euro- and German-car fans, now wouldnt it?

Key phrase, and you quoted it:

Audi cars are as good as anyones

When are you Kool Aid kids going to learn that some of us don't give a flying fajita about product management as long as we like the products.

stevekilburn · June 2006

Among the europeans the only brands which have decent heritage are

1. Mercedes: Oldest since 1886. At the forefront of technology
2. Porsche: forefront of racing and mid-engine design
3. Ferrari: Cutting edge technology and great racing heritage

4. Jag, BMW, Audi: All duds. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:

tagman · June 2006

Just because you have played with a toy Jag does not mean it is great

More sarcasm, Steve?

Remember what I told you . . . you need to back up and turn around . . . you are in a cul de sac, my friend.

TagMan

drfill · June 2006

I'm not sayin' all of that!

All I'm sayin' is Inside Line basically agrees with me, and says you guys are wrong.

And my dazzling posts spawned Front Page headline news by Inside Line journalists, the best and brightest on the Web, all but quoting me in lumping Lexus, BMW and Mercedes together, with Audi being the odd man out.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Didn't mean to imply anything else. No offense intended.

Thank you and Good Night.

DrFill

blkhemi · June 2006

The company has been mismanaged? Not mismanaged, if that were the case, I'd have to sell my W-12 as the company would be in the bullpen with GM, Ford, and now DCX. The company has not been "represented" well here in the US. While cars like the A8 aren't the movers and the shakers in the line, cars like the A4 3.2(DSG and 6-speed) and A6 4.2 and S6-(dare I even comment on the upcoming M5-crushing RS6 with 540-hp) are very unattainable and with the A4 currently selling better than the 3-Series and G35, I'd say the company is doing it's part. True, the management slacked big time when it came to marketing the A8 after '04, but as I've said many times before, the company knows this and will address this starting with the new models for '07(Q7).

But to call it a diseaster worldwide is very over-stepping. Often time the #1-2 luxury automaker in Europe, Audi as a company has to be doing something right. With very little intervention from VW, Audi is a company on the right path.

If the management is so terrible, then why is it that 8 car companies are relying on the company to share or buy Audi technolgy, Porsche being at the front of the line pitching Audi to put DSG's in they're much too wonderful 911's? (Especially since Ferrari's new F1 is making the Porsche Turbo look sloooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww(read: MT 7/06 issue about the new 599 Fiorano GTB). Also, why is it that the company is investing $500M(read: Million)in it's factories to get squeeze even more quality and precision out of it's cars? Maybe it can be that in '09 the all new A8 will be a serious threat to the game, especially MB with a S8 with over 600-hp direct-injection V-12 AND a V-12 TDI with over 350-hp while returning 35 mpg? Or the fact that Ingolstadt was just awarded Germany's best assembly plants for 6 years straight? Or the fact that Audi has more return customers, than say, I don't know, Lexus. MB.(Yes, worldwide)

Point is: To make a misrepresentation about mismanagement works both ways. In many respects, yes Toyota has done a fine job tapping into the biggest car market on the planet. But why in Europe, some people haven't even heard of Lexus let alone seen one? Why isn't the "perfect" car marketed there? There is a reason behind eveything........

pat · June 2006

but some posts have been removed.

We have plenty enough hot potatoes being tossed about in here; we don't need to add political comments into the mix.

Thanks - carry on.

designman · June 2006

But now it seems the latest area that needs to be clarified is the question of Porsche and the lack of a luxury sedan (at least until the Panamera) and the lack of an official listing at the top of this forum. As GREAT as Porsche is . . . is it a HELM? Let's get a solid answer here.

We had this discussion a long time ago. I guess there is no solid answer. Porsche is a HELM that does not make luxury cars in the traditional sense. I've always argued that sport is often a luxury as in "the sport of kings" thus Porsche should be included in consideration of its price, status and the fact that owning a Porsche is indeed a "luxury" in at least one sense of the word.

lexusguy · June 2006

We had this discussion a long time ago. I guess there is no solid answer. Porsche is a HELM that does not make luxury cars in the traditional sense. I've always argued that sport is often a luxury as in "the sport of kings" thus Porsche should be included in consideration of its price, status and the fact that owning a Porsche is indeed a "luxury" in at least one sense of the word.

I dont think I really buy that. Porsches are a lot of things, but luxury cars? No. The Cayenne is perhaps in a grey area because it is reasonably comparable to MB or BMW, but the rest of the lineup are just not luxury cars. Price and exclusivity does not automatically make a luxury item. TVRs are quite pricey, and certainly are not lacking in sport. Are they luxury cars? How about a Viper?

reality2 · June 2006

You've got be kidding right? You may not know Audi heritage or quality, but that is expected in America. Suggest you sit down and do some research or read the book "History of Progress" and you will see Audi's long and illustrious heritage with many innovations and motorsport dominance. Until, then, refrain from sounding ignorant.

dhamilton · June 2006

thanks tagman, my bad, Panamera.

tagman · June 2006

All I'm sayin' is Inside Line basically agrees with me, and says you guys are wrong.

Opinions are not right or wrong. However, a concensus or vast majority often gives us an illumination as to which opinion makes more sense or has more validity. In this sense, the Audi is a HELM by concensus or vast majority here on this forum.

Inside Line's article does nothing to support your argument. It is complimentary of Audi's CARS. The criticisms are directed towards Audi's management, and even then if further indicates that by management it really means "sales and marketing".

With regards to the cars themselves, it clearly points out that Audi's cars are on a par with Mercedes and others. Since the definition of a HELM has to do with the CARS, as oac so appropriately pointed out, Audi more than qualifies . . . and the Inside Line article that you have referenced, absolutely supports this . . . and quite clearly I might add.

TagMan

tagman · June 2006

It's been good working with you these past few days. I actually think we're making progress, too.

TagMan

lexusguy · June 2006

To make a misrepresentation about mismanagement works both ways. In many respects, yes Toyota has done a fine job tapping into the biggest car market on the planet. But why in Europe, some people haven't even heard of Lexus let alone seen one? Why isn't the "perfect" car marketed there?
Lexus having small numbers in Europe certainly isnt because of bad management. There aren't many Japanese cars in Europe at all, let alone Japanese luxury cars. Lexus may not have much, but on the other hand, Nissan and Honda have a big goose egg of the European luxury market. Toyota knows its home market better than anyone else in the world. Their market share there is like what GM used to enjoy in the US back in the '50s. They also have a pretty good handle on what Americans like. The European market, especially the luxury market, is rather new to them though, and they are still learning how to adapt their products for the Euro market.

Almost half of the cars sold in Europe are diesels. Until the IS220d, Lexus had absolutely nothing diesel to even offer, which automatically excludes them from half the market. It would be pretty hard for Lexus to tackle BMW or Mercedes in Europe with that kind of a disadvantage.

tagman · June 2006

reality2's reply to stevekilburn:

You've got be kidding right? You may not know Audi heritage or quality, but that is expected in America. Suggest you sit down and do some research or read the book "History of Progress" and you will see Audi's long and illustrious heritage with many innovations and motorsport dominance. Until, then, refrain from sounding ignorant.

He often sounds like that.

Your point is well taken, and I agree with you, as do most of the posters here.

TagMan

lexusguy · June 2006

Just read it, makes some excellent points. I definitely agree that Audi's biggest problem here is marketing. If you ask random people to associate a brand with the word AWD, I'm willing to bet more people will say Subaru than Audi.

Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW have all had some brilliant TV ads that I can remember very well, that all play perfectly into the core strengths of each brand. I can't remember ever seeing a memorable Audi ad, in any medium.

Even Infiniti does a better job, for example the M ads that focus on the blending of design lines with exterior and interior shots and lighting. Audi is known for having the best interiors in the business, yet I can't remember a single ad boasting about that.

merc1 · June 2006

It depends on how they price it. If they think they can get $60K for the V8, they are dreaming.

I agree.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Now to a clarification: A HELM company can make many HELM cars, but only one HELM car is needed to qualify. Put another way, a car company only needs to make a car that meets these definitions, to become a HELM company.

Disagree totally with that because those here saying that Audi isn't a HELM and if that is the case neither is Lexus. BMW and Mercedes especially make more than one HELM car. Going by this definition then VW is a HELM because of the Phaeton, not!

The title of this thread is High-end Luxury "Marques" not sedans which is what everyone seems to be getting bogged down in comparing here. It says Marques, meaning not just sedans. Saying that only one HELM sedan is needed to become a HELM marque I feel is an excuse for Lexus to pass as a HELM.

Mercedes and BMW stand alone in this reguard because all the rest are trying to enter the big-money space or have entries that aren't sought out by many.

IMO if Audi doesn't count as a HELM (Dr) then neither does Lexus.

M

tagman · June 2006

The title of this thread is High-end Luxury "Marques" not sedans which is what everyone seems to be getting bogged down in comparing here. It says Marques not just sedans.

I noticed that as well, and you will see my post which addresses that . . . by forcing the question "Is Porsche a HELM?" Your answer will be obviously "yes", but it gets at the root of some of the contraversy here, regarding the "sedans only" mentality for HELMS.

Who's placing all these restricitons and qualifications?

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

Well I guess Porsche would be a HEM, a High-End Marque, not really luxury. I still think my original post about the Tiers was the best way to look at this, IMO. It addresses every brand sold here and allows for movement within a tier and it most importantly it looks at the whole brand not just their top of the line sedans.

Yes this is what we normally compare here which I why I found past talk about MB/BMW being finished because of one Lexus sedan hilarious because Mercedes and BMW are more than just their S-Class and 7-Series modes. To take out these two companies with one brand would mean a new brand have to introduce a superior model in every segment they compete in, not going to happen.

Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Jaguar in that order have enough heritage and history to the point it could be talked about for days and days. There is no way you're going to tell me that doesn't count for something just because Americans don't know it (Audi in particular). Those in the know realize what a great car an Audi has become.

M

pat · June 2006

Seems to me some of you are taking a relatively simple concept and convoluting the bee-jeezus out of it. I don't understand why that is ... how about we just talk about what we'd like to talk about regarding the high-end whatevers and ignore - not stamp out, just ignore - conversation about vehicles that either doesn't interest us or that we think doesn't belong here.

This discussion has survived for some, uh, 16266 or so posts now ... there is no need to go into convulsions about the subject at this late date. Let's drop the fisticuffs and just get back to talking about cars - whatever expensive/high-end cars any of you want to talk about.

How about it??

pat · June 2006

is to stop talking about each other. You may not make personal comments about other posters. Debate the vehicles all you want but please do not descend into sniping at each other.

Rule number two is we're here to have fun. Not to get all tied up in knots about what we should be talking about.

Post about the vehicles that interest you. Respond to the posts that spark your interest. But do not tell others what they may and may not say.

Last rule for now - if you think a post is out of line, let me know about it by email. Do not take the poster to task, just let me handle it. But do drop me an email, I'd really appreciate it.

Let's go!

tagman · June 2006

merc - Have you read the Inside Line article regarding Audi?

My interpretation of that article is that it is expremently complimentary of the Audi CARS, but is particularly critical of Audi's management, as further narrowed down to "sales and marketing".

I don't think the article could have even been much more positive about the CARS that Audi builds without showing a bias. As I said, with regards to the CARS themselves, I found it to be largely complimentary.

What's your take?

TagMan

tagman · June 2006

Which of you posters knows something FIRST HAND about the Lotus Elise?

Heck, if Pat's gonna give us some room for fun here, I'm going to take advantage. I've been wanting to ask about that car for quite some time.

By coincidence, I met a guy with one yesterday and he couldn't say enough cool stuff about the car. His take on the vehicle was very positive.

Any of you DRIVEN it?

TagMan

oac · June 2006

Mercedes and BMW stand alone in this reguard because all the rest are trying to enter the big-money space or have entries that aren't sought out by many.

Tell me, Merc1, what do MB and BMW have that Audi does not have ? A 12-cylinder super sedan ? Sport-biased cars ? Racing history ? Heritage ? Even sales on a global basis.... When you mention MB/BMW, pls include Audi. Audi is as much a HELM company as MB and BMW ! Ditto Jag (gotta acknowledge Blkhemi and TagMan's request here). Only Lexus needs to be propped into the HELM class on the strenght of its LS sedan. As Lexus adds more to its upper cadre cars, it will become a solid HELM company - LS series, GT450, and potentially another super sedan above the 600hL...

BTW, the word "marques" does not imply a brand with more than one marque car, but rather more than one car company with at least a marque car that fits into the HELM topic on this board.

merc1 · June 2006

Yeah just read it. A quote from the article:

So, Audi's problem in this market is not product, it's not design, it's not manufacturing, and it's definitely not engineering, technology deployment or product development. The only thing left to blame is sales and marketing.

Bingo!

Audi, Audi where do I start. The biggest problem of which is touched upon in that article is that Audi wasn't allowed to be itself. I've always said that Audi's U.S. bosses didn't have their German counterparts full attention when it came to the U.S. market. This break from being a division of VW should help with that.

Then there are some other things. Audi has some of the nicest dealerships going, most of which in the Chicago area are brand new. They're modern, hip, clean, big, etc. etc., but they're usually not on the "dealer row" with Mercedes/BMW/Lexus. That needs to change until they get on the shopping lists of the folks that compare the L/MB/BMW combo all the time. Last time I checked you couldn't even get a model brochure from Audi's website. What the hell is that? Not as many dealers in as many visible places as the competition and I can't get a brochure on one either - that equals no sale for a lot of folks I bet. There there is the issue of Audi taking their sweet time to bring over their most interesting models. The previous RS6 was a brilliant car, but it was sold for only one model year and it wound up costing more than the E55 and M5 of the day. They seem to be getting better at this since the RS4 is coming over now and it isn't the last year of production for the current A4 bodystyle. The S6 and S8 are somewhat timely also.

Interestingly enough, the Chinese have made Audi so popular to the point that they can get a LWB version of the A6, yes thats right the A6! Audi needs to treat the U.S. market like the European or Far East markets and they'll gain some ground, but the article is right. Audi isn't promoted right and just doesn't resonate with enough luxury car buyers when it comes time to buy and I think part of that has to do with dealership placement combined with spotty advertising and marketing.

Lastly I disagree with the article in the way they seem to blame Audi for not handling the unintended acceleration controversy better. I think anyone else would have given up in 1992 considering that in the 80's they were selling 85K cars and by 1992 they had reached 12K. I mean what else was Audi supposed to do? Mention the controversy in an ad and then refute it? Not. They started building better cars starting with the 1996 A4 and have never looked back, but now it is simply time to tout their many highlights which the article does recognize.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Tell me, Merc1, what do MB and BMW have that Audi does not have ? A 12-cylinder super sedan ? Sport-biased cars ? Racing history ? Heritage ? Even sales on a global basis.... When you mention MB/BMW, pls include Audi. Audi is as much a HELM company as MB and BMW ! Ditto Jag (gotta acknowledge Blkhemi and TagMan's request here). Only Lexus needs to be propped into the HELM class on the strenght of its LS sedan. As Lexus adds more to its upper cadre cars, it will become a solid HELM company - LS series, GT450, and potentially another super sedan above the 600hL...

Audi doesn't have the product spread that BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz has for one. Audi is rapidly changing this and of course they have nearly everything else MB/BMW has so you're right, but when I said that Audi wasn't a a HELM I was thinking primarily in the U.S. market. Audi as it stands in this country right now they only have one HELM car, the A8/S8/A8L. As far as propping up a brand with one car that competes in the HELM space, Audi is pretty much in the same boat as Lexus in that regard, but you're right their other qualities put them nearly equal footing with BMW and Mercedes-Benz but that disqualifies Lexus outright because they have none of those other things you mentioned in regards to Audi.

Trust, you don't have to build Audi up to me because I think they're 90 percent as good as anything BMW/Mercedes makes. They just don't have the lineup at the moment and they realize this as does Lexus. Everyone does bottom 2 sedan categories and most do the S/LS/7/A8/XJ segment, but even fewer do the convertible/sports cars/roadster segments like BMW and especialy MB.

Lexus on the other hand doesn't have anything even remotely interesting outside the sedan category and even there they lack any real lust objects. There is no way possible you can be a High-End Luxury Marque with just one car (a sedan) that competes at the true high end, otherwise VW is also a HELM too and we all know they aren't. That is why this:

BTW, the word "marques" does not imply a brand with more than one marque car, but rather more than one car company with at least a marque car that fits into the HELM topic on this board.

doesn't fly. Marque does indeed mean a brand not just one sedan that barely gets past 70K which happens to be where BMW and again, especially Mercedes have no shortage of models competiting or any trouble selling. Otherwise the thread needs to be changed to High-End Luxury Sedans, not Marques.

As Lexus adds more to its upper cadre cars, it will become a solid HELM company - LS series, GT450, and potentially another super sedan above the 600hL

True, but in the NOW Lexus don't cut it as a true HELM. No propping should be needed.

M

tagman · June 2006

in the NOW Lexus don't cut it as a true HELM.

Then . . . what/where? With Infiniti and Acura? The LS is much better than them, IMO. And as I say this, I am not a Lexican as you very well know.

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

That is why I allowed room within a Tier because as you point out Lexus is clearly above Infiniti and Acura, but they aren't up to BMW and Mercedes either. Esepcially going by Oac's notion on a HELM being a brand that has one HELM car, heck that mean VW fits the bill also. This is why I think I put Audi, Lexus, and Cadillac all on the same Tier initially. They're all looking to move up and join the next higher Tier and it is highly arguble as to who is closest to doing so between Lexus and Audi. Hence me saying they're more or less pretty much in the same boat overall. Lexus does have a big advantage in perception though while Audi IMO makes vastly more desireable cars, but their sales don't show it.

M

tagman · June 2006

With the soon-to-be LS variants, will we still be talking ONE car in your opinion?

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

Yeah pretty much because they're all variations of the same theme. The LS460 and LS600hL are no different than if Mercedes only had the "S-Class" as their only HELM qualifying car, but we know that MB has much more than that.

***Unless Mercedes gets credit from the Lexicans for having a model like the S65 AMG that sells way above (Bentley territory) anything from any other brand here.***** Does the S65 get any special treatment or further elevate the MB brand on the Oac scale or is it just another "S-Class" model I wonder?

I think that it is only fair that if the LS600hL winds up opening up new price territory (which it is almost a given it will) for Lexus than the a car like the S65 AMG should get the same credit for selling in uncharted area for Mercedes.

M

tagman · June 2006

This whole requirement of building more than one car as a HELM qualification . . . well, it seems contraversial . . . subjective, although with merit, but not necessarily definitive in the absolute sense.

Further, as variants of the same model extend into higher price categories, such as LS600hl and S65 AMG, then a rock-solid definition becomes even more subjective.

Which brings me to this . . . no one here can have their cake and eat it too. If anyone is going to place defining parameters regarding the underlying qualifications of a HELM, then those same parameters have to extend to the competition as well.

It's all a losing proposition, IMO. I hate to say it, but I agree with the HOST partly on all of this. It's too restrictive an endeavor. So, why bother?

It ends up being a strategic debate on who qualifies and who doesn't. In the end, we'll be talking about the same cars anyway.

Make sense?

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

Well of course I totally disagree with that notion for several reasons. If one car is all that is needed, then VW makes the cut with the Phaeton. No matter how badly the car flopped in the market it is still a true HELM vehicle. There are several brands that make one high-end car, but they aren't HELMs. Acura could be counted because of the NSX, but they have nothing else remotely high-end. The NSX doesn't make them a HELM.

M

tagman · June 2006

I'm not saying that one car may or may NOT be reason enough. The numerical factor is only one factor itself. The whole HELM thing is a myriad of variables that you could spend a lot of time trying to analyze. So, what's the point unless you are trying to create a parameter that works better for one marque than another?

Sure, we could come up with a NUMBER of areas to disqulaify Lexus, for example, such as "only one model", "not enough history/heritage", etc., but these are EXCLUSIONARY approaches that we would use as a tactic to keep them out, right? After all, our beloved favorites are already in the groove. What's the point? Are we trying to define the parameters for HELM validation here?
Should we? Is it necessary? Why?

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

The numerical factor is only one factor itself. The whole HELM thing is a myriad of variables that you could spend a lot of time trying to analyze. So, what's the point unless you are trying to create a parameter that works better for one marque than another?

True. I think the previous Tier systems I gave was pretty fair?

We could try to decide what the criteria is to be a HELM, but I don't think there would be much agreement there either. Mercedes and BMW are safe no matter what, but Audi and Lexus defenders would never stop coming up with things to try and disqualify the other.

M

oac · June 2006

If one car is all that is needed, then VW makes the cut with the Phaeton. No matter how badly the car flopped in the market it is still a true HELM vehicle.

I don't want to beat this little horse any more than necessary, but Merc1 your continued push for the Phaeton as a HELM car flies in the face of the fact that this car is no longer in production, at least here in the US. How can VW be a HELM when they do not sell any other car in the luxury category, that is where Audi comes in ? Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, Jag, all have cars and/or SUVs that are in a luxury class, VW has none. Nada... The ill-fated Phaeton was short-lived, so I'd not trumpet VW here whatsoever. Can you even buy one today ?

tagman · June 2006

The official "merc1 tier system" was good. Arguable, but good, and fun. The HELM definition thing is not as good because it is exclusionary.

Whatcha think?

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

Which of you posters knows something FIRST HAND about the Lotus Elise?

Likely Designman or Lexusguy, or Habitat1 (LPS board) I think at least one of them has driven it. There is a guy at my gym that has one, but I've never talked with him about it. Amazingly small car, and by all accounts handles pretty much like a go-kart.

M

tagman · June 2006

Like an "F1" go kart. Apparently the '06 handles more like a race car . . . a very responsive one.

Talk to the guy at the gym . . . when you get the chance.

TagMan

merc1 · June 2006

I don't want to beat this little horse any more than necessary, but Merc1 your continued push for the Phaeton as a HELM car flies in the face of the fact that this car is no longer in production, at least here in the US. How can VW be a HELM when they do not sell any other car in the luxury category, that is where Audi comes in ? Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, Jag, all have cars and/or SUVs that are in a luxury class, VW has none. Nada... The ill-fated Phaeton was short-lived, so I'd not trumpet VW here whatsoever. Can you even buy one today ?

Well technically the car is on sale until the end of 2006 OAC, they sold a whopping 17 of them last month and 157 YTD...lol!! Seriously though, the point about the VW Phaeton is as current as the one about Lexus currently only having the LS430 at the moment. VW also has a luxury SUV too, the Touareg can reach 50K just like any MB/BMW/Lexus/Audi SUV. You can't count out VW because Audi is supposed to be the luxury arm and VW admittedly got it confused. The VW products are still there.

In reading your question about VW again, you're asking how can VW be considered a HELM car, that IMO is just worded wrong. VW isn't a HELM car, the Phaeton is which by your declaration of having at least one HEL car making a brand a HELM puts VW in, at least until they import/sell the last Phaeton.

M

merc1 · June 2006

I can go with that, but good luck on trying to decide what the HELM criteria is. I might take a crack at it after some thought.

M

tagman · June 2006

I can go with that, but good luck on trying to decide what the HELM criteria is. I might take a crack at it after some thought.

You're the man for the job . . . good luck.

Too dangerous for me. lol!

TagMan

lexusguy · June 2006

Amazingly small car, and by all accounts handles pretty much like a go-kart.

That about sums it up. Take the S2000, remove all of the creature comforts to save as much weight as humanly possible, and you're left with the Elise. Its heavier than the original British version because of things like airbags required for US spec, but the 1.8L Celica GT-S motor that we get (and they now get) is also a lot more powerful than the original hamster wheel Rover engine.

The Elise is softer than the Exige and rediculous Exige-S, but thats like saying getting hit by a car is softer than getting hit by a train. It will beat a Boxster on a track, but you can actually drive a Boxster on regular roads and not come home with bruises.

For what it can do vs. what it costs though, there's nothing like it. Top Gear got the hottest Exige-S version to go around their track as fast as a Ghallardo.

pat · June 2006

is anything any of you want it to be within some small reason.

Please stop arguing about what belongs here and talk about the cars YOU think qualify without telling everyone else what they may or may not include.

This discussion has existed as is for six and a half years. There is no need for some of you to attempt to redefine it now. If anyone really needs to control what is and is not on topic, you are certainly free to go create another discussion that seems more to your liking. But let's let this one continue as it has been, please.

drfill · June 2006

We have sidestepped my main point about the Tier system again. This is where our debate stepped off.

As Inside Line's article reinforced, Audi lapses in 3 main ingredients that MUST be included in order to be a HELM of THE HIGHEST ORDER!

Management, Marketing, Perception (or Brand Image).

In the US, Audi is below average in ALL of these categories.

Merc

Lexus SUCCESSFULLY sells and markets, the LS and SC, which puts them on a higher tier than Cadillac or Audi, who cannot SUCCESSFULLY push XLR or A8.

That is why Audi, and certainly not VW, are not 1st-tier HELMs in the US, because they can't sell high-end lux cars here. SELLING SUCCESSFULLY is a key ingredient to being a 1st-Tier HELM. So Audi lacks HELM sales too!

The more I explain it, the more Audi seems like peanut butter, no jelly! Ham, no burger! Damn!

Lexus has SUCCESSFULLY moved past the "wanna-be" phase of it's development. Lexus has arrived!

Cadillac can sell a truck. Audi can't sell much of anything here over $50k. Lexus has moved past that tier rather easily.

The more I explain it, the more Audi seems like peanut butter, no jelly! Ham, no burger! Damn!

Porsche cars are luxury cars, they just aren't sedans. But in the States, they are 1st-Tier all the way.

DrFill

designman · June 2006

Nothing radically new about the X5 looks. It appears BMW is playing it safe with the styling of their newer models.

I saw a picture of what the new 2009 BMW 5 series may look like in the September Automobile Magazine. The styling of this car appears very conservative. Maybe Chris Bangle is under some kind of restraining order and is not allowed to enter any BMW design studios/premises?

Designman,
it appears BMW is reading your posts.

I like the new X5. They got rid of the midriff bulge that runs above the rocker panels. Everything looks very integrated and nothing screams for bad-haircut attention. It also looks like that character line (ridge) below the beltline is becoming a common theme across platforms.

On the other hand the 2009 5-series photoillustration that appeared in Automobile is another shapeless abomination. The butt is s-o-o nowhere, the tail lights are Dumbo city. Saving grace is that its only an illustration.

I have to believe car companies forage the web as research in some manner. Think Ill apply for a job at BMW and tell them Im designman see what they say. But then again Merc probably would have been e-mailed job offers by now... Doctor M!

;-)

merc1 · June 2006

The whole point (that you missed) about Cadillac, Lexus and Audi is that yeah you can debate where they rank among themselves all day long, but NONE of them are on the same exact level as Mercedes or BMW. Mercedes and BMW are on a seperate and higher level from Lexus, Audi or Cadillac. Feel free to debate where Cadillac, Lexus and Audi fit within their space, but they don't fit in the same/equal space with MB or BMW.

Lexus has SUCCESSFULLY moved past the "wanna-be" phase of it's development. Lexus has arrived!

Surely you're kidding with all the BMW envy going on with them now!

M

designman · June 2006

Kudos to the host for saving the world from the attack of the pedants.

No rules committees. YES!!

;-)

pat · June 2006

If you don't think Audi belongs here, please stop talking about it. Talk about your "first tier" vehicles all you want, but STOP talking about what you think does NOT belong here. please!

designman · June 2006

The car is F1-inspired, and Lexus is darn serious about going way above MB here. They want a true marque car they can hang their hat on. And what better way than to go to the level of the Ferraris.... Yes, you are right, the Lexus GT450 is aimed higher than the SL, maybe at the SLR/Ferrari class, but priced dirt cheap at $150K (give or take)

Its top speed is close to 200mph, and can reach 60mph in about 4s. What's not to challenge the big boys with here?

Well its not that simple or a matter of going above the SL or to Ferrari. Neither is it dirt cheap. Anyone can manufacture this type of engine that has a totally radical formula approaching F1-type specs. There are good reasons why exotic cars that double as race cars and street cars dont have this type of engine profile. If the Lexus GT does indeed have a 12,000 RPM redline, it subverts everything weve seen in cars like the F430, Enzo, SLR, Saleen, Carrera GT, 911TT, Lambos et al.

Sure I would love to sample such a car and so would any performance nut, but I dont think there will be too many people who want it. And if they do they will be either track rats or people who dont realize what they are buying. Its just outside the performance realm of what is practical and what people expect, namely high on speed but low on muscle. What do I mean by that? Youre looking at anywhere from 250-350 lb-ft of torque and a meager 4 sec 0-60 if what that magazine said is true. Todays monsters go well below that. And to get the 4.0 the Lexus will have to be redlined. An ancient low-rent S55 might even spank it at a stop light unless the Lexus is in the hands of someone who really knows how to drive it.

Cars like the original S2000 and NSX went a little over the top approaching that type of performance and they were not well received except by track junkies who knew how to drive them and were comfortable with the narrow performance bands. And those cars werent even CLOSE to what this Lexus is showing here. Id be surprised if that engine profile is for real. Furthermore, I think there is a chance a street car with such an engine profile wont even make it to production.

Lastly, I dont even see the track hounds wanting it because driving it to its capability will mean a low shelf lifetoo much maintenanceengine rebuilds and replacements. Thats what you get with extreme RPM. If anything, Lexus will subsidize a racing program and showcase it in that manner. Its a very different production car and probably not the result of extraordinary engineering; rather, they could be doing it JUST to be different. I mean, even a 9K redline is extreme for a street car. Maybe they really do have their minds on strictly track use which is certainly palatable.

Im skeptical about its performance allure and especially its sales potential. Its going against marques with deep roots and the ability to arouse, and where the street is concerned its going against well established performance margins. This car is in a home run derby and nothing short of the fence will scores points. But well see. I look forward to seeing the final spec sheet and reviews. I do hope it is successful in one way or another. At this point Lexus surely gets an A+ for brass. Any company that throws a hot, dedicated performance car at us is OK in my book.

ljflx · June 2006

"In typical Lexus fashion, they're almost always late to the game. The new LS will undoubtly bring a fresh face to the game, but a threat to it's main competitor, the S550? Highly doubtful. And the LS600hL may be blazen with technology, but with only 430hp, all it's technology seems superficial. And the fuel econ numbers I've seen aren't anything special, maybe 2 mpg better than the class norm(as a matter of fact, the supposed 18/25 is akin to a Jag XJ, the other "non-HELM car".)

This is in no way discounting Lexus."

If that is not discounting Lexus than what is? The commenmts are a complete attempt to put off the company and it's upcoming technology but the success of the business model and the demand for the new car renders the comments as a joke. As well what exactly is Lexus late with? HP? MB just upped it's horses 3 months ago. No this LS460 and particularly the 600HL is late with nothing and the latter is now in need of some serious challenges from those that now have to follow.

"Basically, Inside Line says Audi cars are as good as anyones, but the company is a paragon on mismanagement, and is not highly regarded here in the US because of it."

Inside Line is then completely at odds with Merc1, who has constantly maintained that car buyers couldn't give a damm about corporate financials or how well or bad a company is run.

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