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Comments
Exactly . . . no one in their right mind would think that. I agree with you.
They go on to imply that Volvo is above Aston Martin and Maserati as well. Aston Martin and Maserati have heritage in spades, both as manufacturers and from their racing programs. How many Le Mans wins does Volvo have?
I agree once again. There is a serious difference in the heritage of those vehicles, and I'm glad to see you recognize heritage as a relevant attribute . . . as we are all aware of which HELM has NONE.
TagMan
I don't hate Lexus. I look forward to driving a new LS in the Fall to see if its handling has improved a bit.
It will be quite tough for Lexus to break in over there, however, because of the great, proud tradition of fantastic performance-oriented vehicles that Europeans have grown accustomed to expect.
Steve-come on now-wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?
No . . . I'm not the man for the job. Because I don't hate Lexus the way it might appear sometimes. It's well known that I have a huge respect for them, particularly the upcoming LS.
But, admittedly, I can't stand it when I see Lexus fans taking undeserved heaping helpings of credit and denying Mercedes it's rightful kudos.
That's really all it is.
TagMan
No it didn't. That's too extreme. There were many interesting and valid perspectives. Disagree with one, and you don't have to discredit the entire thing.
TagMan
Oh well, I guess the Corolla will be a HELM soon.
TagMan
Audi, if you build it, they will come!!
This iteration of another CLS-esque car is better designed, at least in the pics, than some of the others. Mainly headroom will be better than even the CLS. And this car gets Audi's new 4.2L 450hp, direct injected, DSG-equipped V8. I saw a "unofficial" pic of the "sport" model of the car last month. All I can say is Audi must've been cross-shopping at AMG as the front and rear aprons look very MB to me, which is no bad thing. Looks like they also chopped off it's nose for a more smoother finish. I'll keep you posted on new pics, like the spy photo of the upcoming Q5 and '09 A8L..
Most of aston legend is just baseless propaganda and fraud, just like most other british brands.
Choicest words are used. "Storied marque", "world's best", "world beating", timeless elegance, refined, rare, elegant, unparalleled, glorious, legendary, unequaled, fabled and other non-sense. Fraudulent propaganda by sleazy british press and their cronies on East Coast this side of pond.
Just like a medieval fisherman cries "Best fish" while selling a rotten one.
If you think I am missing something you should point it out CLEARLY otherwise this "spades" thing is just an irresponsible ornament.
it will keep the competition honest and we get better vehicles.
Looking forward to seeing how Toyota and Honda react to the heat currently being provided by Hyundai.
Audi, if you build it, they will come!!
It (the A7) is surely gorgeous, and there were other pics on that site. I imagine you've seen them all by now. Personally, I like it much better than the CLS.
My wish to Audi . . . send a gorgeous sports car to our market.
TagMan
If it helps, I do think that Lexus is more sophisticated a car than Buick but, FWIW I never mentioned Buick, That was the good Mr.Tagman. Again FWIW for me reliablility would comes as a lower priority than performance. Something that Lexus does well. I can live with some glitches to have a car drive a certain way that I feel appropriate. We can agree to disagree I suppose, didn't mean to push any buttons.
I generally have a history of being fairly objective in my views of Mercedes and Lexus, and the other marques as well.
But as I've said, it is not reasonable to have Lexus fans take massive amounts of credit for even the smallest things, and totally deny Mercedes the credit it deserves, and to further insult the Mercedes marque by trying to deny its heritage and history, and to ignore the value of its status and prestige, as though they no longer have any merit. They all do.
There are MANY factors, not just the ones that Lexus is good at. The ones that Lexus is NOT historically good at matter too. So, it is ridiculaous to suddenly ban heritage or prestige, to infer that style is not that big a deal, or to dilute the standards for performance as though going quickly in a straight line is adequate. (THAT was why I used the Buick analogy, hope I didn't insult anyone).
It seems reasonable that reliability is not EVERYTHING. Those other factors and performance do matter, IMO.
I think you know what I am saying, here.
TagMan
Lets go trough the list one more time.
Interior ergonomics – MB is a clear winner. Some might not like it at the first glance but after spending time in the car, you will understand how much better it is then anything from Japan.
In terms of technology - MB is an innovator, unfortunately it does reflected on reliability, but Like Tagman stated MB clear winner. Lexus simply uses proven technology and it work in their favor in terms of reliability, but not in terms of Technological enhancements. New LS might change that, but again hybrid technology was tasted on other Toyota models and not an innovation at this point. Even Acura, without having presence in the HELM sector, was by far more involved in breakthrough technology. Not having any new technology to break, does not make Lexus a winner.
Safety – MB would win this category as well but both cars are safe enough for a tie.
Performance- clearly go to MB.
Prestige – MB.
Styling – subjective, but I think most will agree that MB is a winner.
Price – Lexus. However if you look at the value, depending on your preferences, S class can be the best value on the market. In one of the reviews I think in R&T it won heads up campro with Rolls-Royce Phantom. No one in the right state of mind will compare LS to Phantom, don’t you think? After all, $150K 911 Turbo considered, by many, the best value on the market. I bet you thought it was Hyundai SonataJ
S class is not only the better car by a mile, it also a better value and it’s 30K more expensive.
Oak, I know you will probably disagree. However if you do, can you provide some explanation for your logic. Tagman clearly stated as why MB superior to Lexus, you on the other hand did not.
One more thought, I might be out of line here, but I think that new LS looks similar to previous S class, which is a good thing.
Mercedes nevertheless builds fine cars because it still does well in many other helm criteria besides reliability.
And did you say sports car from Audi? Then the magic genie has just granted your wish: R8 and new TT(coupe, Cab, and hopefully the Shooting Brake).
With the R8, you'll be able to get anything from a 3.6L V-6/DSG to a 5.0L V10/stick or DSG and a 6.5L V-12/stick or DSG(thank Heavens they opted against the cruel Lambo E-gear) with over 600hp, probably a smidge less than the Murcielago, for obvious reasons. That V-12 will also make it's way into the next gen A8's by virtue of smaller displacement(6.2L), but still with over 600-hp and with the engine sitting completely behind the front axle line, for improved handling and by virtue of the more complex but more compact 9-Speed autobox and DSG's.
And here are your starting lineups:
Air Europe:
Merc
Hpowders
Tagman
Designman
BlkHemi
Vs. Team Lexus
Ljflx
DrFill
Oac
LexusGuy
Stevehilburn
Cyclone (6th Man award-winner!)
DrFill
1a. I don't remember saying Audi isn't a HELM. I DO remember saying they are not a 1st-tier HELM. Big difference.
2. Mercedes is the standard in HELM automobiles, and I have the utmost respect for their heritage, and current lineup. I do believe they are Lexus' only legitimate competition, since they both make luxury-first cars/trucks, and is incredibly formidable. I see Ali-Frazier.
But Mercedes has learned to respect Toyota/Lexus' power over the past 17 years. And I believe they consider Lexus a 1st-tier HELM in the US, and one to watch elsewhere, as it is fairly obvious Lexus has not applied itself in Europe/Japan with the ferver they have here. Taking over America is no small task, and Lexus can take one continent at a time, as far as I'm concerned.
3. Making pretty cars with high prices is fine, but if you can't sell them, like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW can, what have you got? Heritage is great. I'd rather have sales, cash, happy customers, and respect. Anything else will come only in time.
4. The 1st-tier HELMs in the US are Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Lexus.
DrFill
Hey, Mets are unconscious!
Hpowders Tiger is 7 off the pace he doesn’t do well in Westchester. There was a story today in our local paper about his 155-foot yacht which is parked in Mamaroneck harbor. So much for those friggin’ Buick ads. There was also a cute story about the family who owns a house that is very close to the 15th green. They have three rescued dogs (Spaniels) who bark at the golfers and that Tiger was playing with them during practice rounds. I’m wondering if they will cause a commotion during the tournament.
:shades:
http://duboholic.com/2006/05/2008_audi_a7.htm
Try this site for the same pictures that appear in Automobile and CAR.
"Audi Nothing to Prove'
Source: Detriot News.
German upmarket hegemony, built on speed,
innovation said unassailable In Europe
But Lexus, other upstarts with quality, style, price might be dangerous combination
by Neil Winton
In a country like the U.S. where
the speed limit is rarely as high as 80
mph, would you buy a Porsche Cayenne
SUV rather than a Range Rover
because the Porsche was the fastest
SUV in the world?
If a BMW Formula 1 car was
victorious in the U.S. Grand Prix on a
Sunday, would you buy a BMW 540
on Monday rather than a Lexus GS
450h?
Would you decide against buying
a Rolls Royce Phantom because it
could "only" do 145 mph, and might
be overtaken on a German motorway
by a Mercedes Maybach?
If your answer's to the above
questions are "no", you might have
some difficulty suppressing your derision
if you read a new book called
"Premium Power, The Secret Of Success
Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche
And Audi", by Phillip Rosengarten
and Christopher Stuermer, published
by Palgrave MacMillan.
Messrs Rosengarten and Stuermer
are both auto analysts from the
Global Insight automotive forecasting
company, based in Germany, and
"Premium Power" sets out to show
why German upmarket car manufacturers
have been so hugely successful
around the world, and particularly in
North America.
Rosengarten, in an interview,
outlined the basic premise of the
book, which contends that German
upmarket manufacturers, instead of
copying Japanese concepts of lean
production leading to faultless cars at
competitive prices, developed
"premium" brands which were differentiated
by innovation, often led by
success on the race track.
The "premium" brands of BMW,
Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz,
and for the time being Range Rover
and Volvo, are superior
to mere luxury
cars like Lexus, Infiniti,
Cadillac, Jaguar,
and Rolls Royce, because
they continuously
set new high
standards. The luxury
brands merely follow
and imitate.
"This helps to
explain why successful
brands in America like
Lexus are not so successful
in Europe,
where customers demand
heritage above
all," Rosengarten said.
German and
Lexus upmarket success
in America is undeniable, not to mention
the dismal record of Lexus, so
far, in Europe.
According to Rosengarten,
brands like Range Rover, which is
owned by Ford and is part of its Premier
Automotive Group (PAG), are
in danger of losing premium status
and becoming merely luxury if they
let innovation slip.
"Range Rover, now belonging to
a volume group like Ford, would be
in trouble if Ford failed to understand
how important innovation is and
might starve it of the necessary investment.
Its air suspension was a
benchmark and others have caught
up. Now Range Rover has its All Terrain
Response, which is something
nobody else has."
All Terrain Response harnesses
computer power to control offroading
with settings for conditions
like mud, snow, rocks and sand, and
almost automates the driving skills
required.
Rosengarten says that innovation
is demonstrated by motor sport victories,
with Porsche showing by various
sports car race wins that it stands for
speed. Audi rally victories showed
how its Quattro four-wheel drive system
beat front wheel or rear wheel
drive. Both Mercedes and BMW have
long competed in Formula 1 Grand
Prix. Advertising and sponsorship
link premium car makers with upmarket
activities including concerts,
sports like golf, sailing and skiing,
and also communicate the brand's
history.
Innovation crucial:
"A premium brand can only be
successful in the long run if the brand
is continuously setting standards in
one of the dimensions which are important
to its premium customers," he
said.
"But premium innovation doesn't
mean necessarily high tech or
electronic ideas, a simple solution
with customer focus will do. For instance
there is a new option on the
Lamborghini Gallardo which lifts the
the front suspension a couple of inches to
avoid damaging the car as it rides
over sleeping policeman (bumps in
the road designed to slow urban traffic)."
According to the book, Lamborghini,
Bentley, Bugatti, and Ferrari
are also "premium". Mere "luxury"
brands in the U.S. include Acura,
Cadillac, Hummer, Infiniti, Lexus,
Lincoln and Maybach, while secondrate
status in Europe goes to Aston
Martin, Jaguar, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati,
Mini, Morgan, Rolls Royce,
Saab and TVR.
"Performance is important too, it
gives a power reserve and reassurance.
At Bentley, the new Continental
GT sets outstanding standards.
With a top speed of 193 mph it puts
the Aston Martin Vanquish (part of
Ford's PAG), which is nearly
€100,000 ($125,000) more expensive
in its shadow. People who buy cars
like these have achieved something
top in their area whether it is football
(soccer) or fashion or films, and they
want their car to do the same thing,"
he said.
This idea might seem preposterous
to some, that a car which can exceed
the speed limit by more than the
speed limit itself, at least outside of
Germany where often there is no
speed limit at all, would be desirable.
German speed limit would
destroy premium advantage
But Rosengarten is insistent.
"A speed limit on German motorways
would be the end of German
premium brands, yes definitely,
there's no doubt about that. It is all
down to image. The fact that German
cars can attain such high speeds
forces them all to be very competitive;
it brings your performance to a
level which no outsider can compete
with. The introduction of a speed
limit on British roads (in 1965) is one
of the reasons for the industry's demise
because it didn't have the challenge
of top competition any more,"
Rosengarten said.
Rosengarten is dismissive of the
threat from Lexus to upmarket European
sales, even though its amazing
success in America might be thought
to pose a long term threat.
"Pitiful" Lexus
Calling Lexus' European sales of
about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful",
Rosengarten doesn't rate the Japanese
threat very highly.
"Without heritage, which means
a glorious history and brand tradition,
it will not be easy to establish a successful
luxury brand in Europe, not to
mention establish a premium brand.
All the more so as Lexus has many
American luxury-style elements with
its design orientation geared towards
other premium brands instead of creating
its own unique elements, and it
cannot showcase any important innovations,"
he said.
Rosengarten does concede that
Toyota, its Lexus subsidiary and
Honda's lead in hybrid cars, powered
by a combination of petrol and electric
motors, might give them some
street cred, but he points to an ominous
statistic.
"Globally, Lexus is selling less... continued next
"Globally, Lexus is selling less
than half of Audi's volume, and less
than those of BMW and Mercedes-
Benz."
Not everybody falls for the line
that car buyers demand a race-bred
heritage for their cars, or that the Germans
are the only manufacturers capable
of producing high quality vehicles
with a sporty drive.
The new little Lexus IS, which
competes with the BMW 3 series,
Audi A4 and Mercedes C-class,
drives as well as its Europeancounterparts
and looks just as classy.
The new top-of-the-range Lexus LS
limousine is surely equal to the Mercedes
S class, BMW 7-series or Audi
A8, while another Japanese luxury
marque, Nissan's Infiniti, shortly to
start selling in Europe, is no slouch
when it comes to high class design.
Cadillac will also be claiming bragging
rights for its new cars which are
also being seen in Europe in increasing
numbers. Though pitiful at best. Chrysler's eye-catching
300C and various Jeep SUVs are also
competing vigorously in Europe.
No God given right
Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff
University Centre for Automotive
Research isn't convinced that the Germans
have all the answers. The likes
of Lexus have also shown that high
quality doesn't have to mean prices
that make the eyes water. And outright
performance might not be such
a big seller where consumers are becoming
more aware of the need to
conserve previous fuel and resources.
"There's no God given right that
German hegemony at the top end of
the car market will continue, and
when you look at the success of
Lexus in America, which has forced
the Germans to engage in more realistic
pricing strategy, Lexus has certainly
opened the eyes of American
buyers of German products to the
level of prices they are asked to pay,"
said Rhys.
"Their latest models appeal to
the European eye and consumers and
are not geared entirely to the American
market, unlike Infiniti, which
needs a more global shape. Lexus is a
very, very competitive package, good
handling and efficiency, the sort of
car that can give BMW, Audi and
Mercedes a good run for their
money."
Speed not everything
"This book gives a very German
view of the automobile. Customers
aren't just interested in speed, but
other things like style and quality.
And with everybody becoming more
aware and interested in global warming,
the pursuit of speed is at variance
with what might become a more acceptable
attitude. High earners too
like to demonstrate their social responsibility.
Arguing that the Cayenne
is faster than the Range Rover,
is not the message required in the
market place," said Rhys.
High quality, value for money,
and a great experience at the dealership
are Japanese attributes that will
work for them even in the upmarket
sector, said Al Bedwell, auto analyst
at JDPower's operation in England.
"Having said that I think that
German car buyers may be influenced
by good motor sport results,
but that's just a feeling. But with the
right designs and dealer network,
Lexus could be a lot more of a threat
to German premium brands. Lack of
a sporting heritage is only a minor
handicap," said Bedwell.
Bedwell estimates that Lexus
will raise its sales in Europe to between
45,000 and 55,000 by 2010,
while Infiniti, which launches in Russia
later this year and will start a fullscale
roll out across Europe in 2008,
will hit 20,000 by the end of 2010.
Honda's Acura has yet to announce
any intention of selling its
cars in Europe.
Even the Greens agree
Rosengarten said the German
premium car makers have been so
successful that last year Audi, Mercedes,
BMW and Porsche produced
more cars than the mass car manufacturers
in Germany Volkswagen, GM's
Opel, and Ford.
"I expect that to continue," he
said, and underlines the need to make
sure Germany's roads remain unrestricted
by speed limits.
"It is important to keep away
from a speed limit in Germany. All
politicians from the main parties
agree with this, even the Greens realise
its importance; after machine tooling,
automobiles are the biggest employer
in Germany," he said.
Professor Rhys isn't convinced
about this need for speed.
"It would be rather worrying
from a German point of view if this
book reflects the attitude of the companies.
But I don't think they're so
enamoured with speed as this book is
pushing forward. The German vehicle
manufacturers are unlikely to fall
into this trap provided by this book,"
he said.
As I read through some of the recent posts it appears that many of the cars discussed here have high five up into six figure MSRP's.
I cannot tick them all off, from the top of my head, but aren't virtually all the cars that command that kind of MSRP's "high end?" And, those cars in the price range noted are all luxury cars no?
As a frequent participant on the LPS forum and a former owner of an Audi A8, I also wonder as I am attempting to get up to speed, how much "performance" counts in this class of cars?
I have not, for years, driven an A8, 7 Series or high S class -- and the last time I drove the big buck Lexus, although more recent, was also some time ago.
The recent write ups of the Lexus hybrids do make them seem to be VERY powerful, but I still have not read comments about them that would suggest they place high value on performance.
The $100K Lexus has to be HE and I would hope LM, but is it also a PS? The Germans, based on 4+ year old experience DO emphacize P.
All the comments pertaining to Lexus are certainly strong and mostly persuasive -- but there does seem to be less "concern" for them with respect to performance.
Does HELM place low, medium or high value on performance?
To me, the Audi S8 and a possible RS8 define HELPS, but does that qualify for inclusion in HELM?
With "lottery" money, an S8 would certainly ring my bell as an HE vehicle.
What, if any, concensus is there regarding traits -- including and excluding "brand" cache -- to be considered as a member of the HELM club?
Since I find the size of the LPS family perhaps more to my needs and tastes, I will most likely be an observer here, but I would appreciate some "clarity" regarding the traits that qualify a vehicle to play in this league.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Please allow the honorable TagMan to respectfully refresh the good doctor's memory.
In post 16213 I requested you to say that "Audi is a HELM".
In post 16214 you replied "Audi can be a HELM for YOU. Not a HELM for me."
Very true . . . Audi is indeed a HELM for me and blkhemi and others, but you clearly said it . . . that FOR YOU, in YOUR opinion, according to YOU, DrFill, from YOUR perspective Audi is not a HELM.
Doc, that's OK if you don't think it is. We just won't agree. But you are most welcome to change your mind, my friend, or even maybe you could put a spin on this whole thing and admit you didn't use the best choice of words, and that you actually meant to say it IS a HELM. That would be fine with me.
So . . . here's your chance . . . Tell us that "Audi IS a HELM. Maybe a second-tier HELM, in your opinion, but that it IS a HELM.
Can you go with that? C'mon, Doc, I'm tryin' to work with ya here.
TagMan
YES!!! :surprise:
They're learning.
I do believe they will be making some significant gains in the US market pretty soon.
I have to agree with Merc. They have the best looking vehicles across the line both inside and out of any of the companies we discuss around here.
Wonderful designs. Fabulous interiors.
They won't be kept down much longer.
I will for the first time add an Audi to my list when I go car hunting again.
Perhaps the Q7-one of the best-looking SUV's I've ever seen.
Doc, you've won. This whole experiment has proven that you can get a good arguement here. For all intents and purposes, the test worked. As I've noted before, the HELM thing is over. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, who cares? The fact of the matter is that all the cars that are in question have posted some strong gains in both sales and product, even Lexus with the wonderful IS and upcoming LS. Yes I said it for the record, Lexus is a HELM(albeit, how are they better than Audi? One car can't strike a flame against Audi's lineup). Even without heritage, the company has a winning if dull recipe for success, with the LS being the best premium car in it's class in sales. But to exclude Audi from this is like saying the brand never existed, particularly when the brand has beat it's own sales forecast by some 200k units and counting, and this on the heels of it's A6/A8 cars, not lower end cars like Lexus generates most of it's global sales.
So can we please put this HELM/non-HELM debate to rest because she hasn't had any rest in almost a week? And poor Pat can only intervene so much. You don't think Audi is a HELM, great, fine. Then stick by it as the rest of the world knows what's really going on.
The business world, particularly the technology sector is a proven graveyard for those that think heritage is so crucial. Old world Europeans puts up a grave resistannce for a while but sooner or later mainstream forward thinking Europeans overcome the heritage stupidity. Sorry but I can't follow a group of people that tried to deny Disneyland to their kids because they thought they were so smug and it was beneath them. I'll give you heritage has some merit but if you make it a decision maker you are simply shortchanging yourself. Most people aren't that narrowminded.
Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage.
Most of aston legend is just baseless propaganda and fraud, just like most other british brands.
Ok, you totally missed the point. I didn't say Aston Martin was the winningest car company ever. My point was that Aston and Maserati have been racing for a very long time, just like MB and Porsche. They both have legendary cars, just like MB and Porsche.
The point was, how many race wins does Volvo have? How many legendary Volvos are there? Why is Volvo a "premium" brand, while Aston Martin and Maserati are "second-rate".
Better when you stack the criteria in favor of the LS. No where in there does performance, handling, styling or anything else that actually relates to it being a car as opposed to an appliance even come up. Secondly this about the LS being more luxurious doesn't hold water. The car is no more "luxurious" than a S-Class or A8. Softer leather? Big deal, it will look like crap when the 2nd onwer gets his hands on it. Many buyers don't give a "flying leap" about all this dependability/reliablity superiority that Lexus defenders constantly harp about it, if they MB/BMW/Audi wouldn't be able to sell cars, and they all do it for more money on top of that. On paper the LS looks to be the end-all vehicle to some, yet right here on Edmunds you'll find a few Lexus owners have left and some buyers that found it to be a totally insipid vehicle. A luxury car of this ilk has to do more than win in surveys and being Mr. Practical, that is something Lexus doesn't seem to grasp, at least not yet. The new LS is anything but gorgeous, of course IMO.
M
M
That is pretty much it. Really. You never hear anything about how the car drives,looks or anything "car-like". It is always surveys, price and this talk of luxury, which means not feeling anything and in the case of the LS430 the flattest seats possible. The ES and SC follow the same isolationist formula. They've been called "Buick-like" by more than one tester over the years.
M
This is exactly why Lexus and particulary the LS has the reputation it has. The seats in the current LS430 are the flattest, most non-supportive seats going. They're made for a person that doesn't care one whit about actually driving the car.
This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next
Lexus isn't half the innovator the Mercedes is and this nonsense about MB's electronics never working is total nonsense.
You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next
Says what? Here is where the problem is in Lexusland. Unless some survey or stat can be googles right fast it doesn't exist. Mercedes (and Volvo) are the only ones that actually recover some of their cars after an accident to see how they can make them better. Mercedes' are safer in real-world crashes, a quick scan of the net will show you this. Mercedes' have some unbelievable accidents and yet the glass doesn't even break and the passenger cell is intact, doors still able to open etc. Lexus isn't an unsafe car by any means, but to say that MB holds no advantage here is just plain wrong.
Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS...
Style = Mercedes.
Safety = Mercedes.
Technology = Mercedes.
Reliability = Lexus.
Ergonomics = Lexus.
Luxury = Mercedes. LS430 is more of a traditional luxury car than a European one.
And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy...
Because they're cheaper. Read the previous posts and see what a LS430 sells for on average. If MB wins in all those area shouldnt they sell more because of a higher price? Is that what you're asking? That doesn't make any sense. The higher up in price the thinner the market is.
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I agree, I didn't really understand what he was trying to say there. I guess that was strictly from a European point of view which would put all of those over Lexus, Infinti and Cadillac, but not Rolls or Jaguar. That I didn't get either.
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If it helps, I do think that Lexus is more sophisticated a car than Buick but, FWIW I never mentioned Buick, That was the good Mr.Tagman. Again FWIW for me reliablility would comes as a lower priority than performance. Something that Lexus does well. I can live with some glitches to have a car drive a certain way that I feel appropriate.
This is what many have been saying all along. All you have to do is read the postings on various Germancar boards vs. Lexus and you'll see a clear difference, especially when talking about the LS/SC/ES. Now the GS and IS are somewhat different, especially the IS. Perfomance never, ever comes up and when it does and the Germancar outperforms the Lexus, you'll get the it doesn't matter response because this is America and you can only drive 55/65/75 mph anyway.
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Good point, but I don't think any of the Germancar defenders here are using heritage as a last resort, besides it couldn't be any more depserate than the constant reliability speech which implies (incorrectly) that everything else is on the side of the road constantly. Cars are not computers, phones or other such devices either. There is a certain emotional attachment to a car that an enthusiast has compared to those who only buy from the CR "recommended" list. For a lot of people there are way more things to consider. No one here defending Lexus can accuse anyone else of being narrow minded.
Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage.
No not really, it is the lack of a diesel in their premium cars that has held them back and that lack of heritage. Of course once they build a car in Europe and provide a diesel they're sales will do much better, but to that crowd you think doesn't care about heritage (which they do) they still won't buy. This will always be a factor, but how much of one is the question. Europeans caring more about where it is made vs who makes it is overstated with the 100X comment. The European auto industry was build on heritage and that still counts. Toyota has all the money in the world, yet if the execution is off, it won't matter where they build it.
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Not like Phil.
Never saw Tiger hit a putt like he did on #2: 2 feet short from about 12 feet.
I guess 6 gazillion dollars will do that to you after a while.
Oh well, if he remains disinterested in golf and Jack's pursuit, he can always slum over here on the 2 Buick Rainier threads.
I do believe that is about to change big-time (in terms of sales).
They are starting to infiltrate the airwaves.
As consumer demand increases, which it will, they will use some of that capital to build more dealerships and soon pretty much everywhere you see BMW, Lexus and MB showrooms, an Audi will be nearby.
I am excited when I hear the name "Audi" and I never was before.
Will definitely drive a 6, 8 and a Q7 in my exhausting and (to other posters) nauseating search for my next vehicle, which usually begins the day after the new one is in the garage.
The list of potential test-drives at this moment also includes the Porsche Cayman S.
I plan on driving the new LS to see if its handling has improved.
No BMW's on my list as yet.
You didn't have to.
Merc 1 provided the link already to this article in post # 16384.
The Q7 looks like it will be a major help in the move. It's enormous!
Because if that, It must be considered my current front-runner at this time.
We can wax nostalgic all we want, but the performance qualities of German cars live in the present. Write your check and get it now.
Lexus heritage? Manufacturing, reliability, hybrid, price all good things but nothing to excite the pure driver. The Autobahn and Nurburgring are alive and well German car heritage is alive and well a vitality that is very alluring to the people who buy these cars.
IMO, to be a first tier HELM, the car company must go through three stages:
1- It must have a full history of building (perceived or otherwise) exceptional products that are generally accepted by the consumers. The products must include full line of vehicles from entry level to top end. Being accepted by the general public helps to make the company profitable i.e. bread and butter. Benz and BMW have certainly got this under their belt; Lexus has done it very well. Audi has been kind of hit and miss in NA. Jaguar has basically done nothing on the entry level.
2- With the firm footing built in step 1, the company can then enhance/grow its image by building/offering more extravagant/expensive products. I believe it is very important that anyone spending his/her own money on HELM would like to feel that the car company is standing solidly behind its offering. Initially, the loyal fans trading up support these. Then as the words get out, you get the converts i.e. customers leaving the other HELMs because of the styling, performance, technology and reliability etc... I believe Audi has not totally completed this step in NA since it is not drawing people away from the other HELMs. Again, Benz is already here, and actually it must work hard to keep its customer; BMW is kind of blurring its HE offerings by focusing more on its low and mid level products, nothing wrong with this since these are already pricey/HE. Lexus is now truly deep into this step with its new upcoming LS and other various potential models such as LFX, LFA and LFC. It is also in the process of improving the image of the entire product line with more technologies, performance and styling while maintaining the top rate reliability.
3- Once became first tier HELM, the company must constantly be innovative with technologies. It must keep the entire product line fresh and competitive. Relying solely on past performance to sell new vehicles is the recipe for disaster and may end up becoming second/third tier HELM (By the way, my definition of a less than first tier HELM is a HE vehicle that is nice to have but I would not pay for it with hard earned $).
For those that are knocking Lexus, just keep watching the unfolding story. Lexus fans should just ignore these comments and enjoy the ride. I am happy that Lexus is not Europeans like; after all, we live and drive in NA (except for those biz trips accross the pond).
We can wax nostalgic all we want, but the performance qualities of German cars live in the present. Write your check and get it now.
Lexus heritage? Manufacturing, reliability, hybrid, price all good things but nothing to excite the pure driver. The Autobahn and Nurburgring are alive and well German car heritage is alive and well a vitality that is very alluring to the people who buy these cars.
I liked the way you wrote that so much I thought I'd copy/paste it again.
"alive" . . . "vitality" . . . ah yes, good words.
TagMan