High End Luxury Cars

designman · June 2006

Now theres a Lexus post I can relate to no rose-colored glasses, no bluster, not an ounce of fat it plays to the LS's strong points and is probably a perfect example of why many buy an LS.

designman · June 2006

The "handling" card can only be played to a certain extend. The LS may not be the best handling in its class, but it does not need to be.

I agree, and thats the point Lexicans should stick with. Instead, some of them try to score points with handling only to get trumped. Its like the average Joe thinking he can hit a Mariano Rivera fastball. After all its pretty obvious what Lexus is successful with. When a Lexus buyer says he doesnt like a teeth-chattering ride, he prefers the softer luxury ride, this is what I respect and theres nothing to debate. The problem is when they get greedy in these discussions and go outside the area of Lexus product benefits. I dont know who they think they are fooling. They cant win a performance argument and they shouldnt even try.

The LS is a pure luxury car. We need to respect the differences in these vehicles.

designman · June 2006

This talk of tires is way off the mark. You cant just put on low-profile tires and say a car handles good. The entire suspension has to have the proper components in the way of struts, shocks, springs, sway bars, rigid chassis and frame, balance and proper wheel alignment settingscaster, camber, toe angles. In addition, the steering should have a lower numerical ratio so it is responsive. Lexus suspension and steering are tuned for the luxury ride which is soft.

The Legacy GT was mention recently and this is a perfect example of how low-profile tires on a car with soft suspension do not do the trick. Its like an obese person expecting a pair of sneakers to work wonders for him. I mean, there are other things to be concerned about, the least of which are the shoes.

I don't like low-profile tires anyway. The old BMWs and Porsches had 15 inch wheels and I would think they still outhandle many of today's stars. Even the track rats are shunning the extreme low profiles. There is a point of diminishing returns. I think today's wheels and tires are more about bling. The Conestoga wagon look is in.

designman · June 2006

Better get prepared for Jeopardy.

If they let me google and allow two minutes for each question I might have a shot.

;-)

tagman · June 2006

Just a few more hours and . . . I'm outta here! . . . for a month . . . on a rather isolated summer vacation.

Anyone with treatment advise for forum withdrawal? . . . it would be greatly appreciated.

I'll look forward to catching up on all your posts upon my return around July 20th. So . . . until that time . . . have a great July 4th . . . and please take care of yourselves and your loved ones.

The primary vehicle I will drive while on vacation? . . . ahh yes . . . a boat.

:shades:

TagMan

hpowders · June 2006

No withdrawal necessary if you take a laptop with you.
Enjoy your vacation!

Merc will serve as Air Europe Commander in your absence.

dhamilton · June 2006

Have a good time Tagman, be safe, and don't forget the sun screen :shades:
drumminham

lexusguy · June 2006

I don't like low-profile tires anyway. The old BMWs and Porsches had 15 inch wheels and I would think they still outhandle many of today's stars. Even the track rats are shunning the extreme low profiles. There is a point of diminishing returns. I think today's wheels and tires are more about bling. The Conestoga wagon look is in.

I'm with you on that one. Most of the experts say that if you "+1" your wheels, you will generally get slightly better (but it wont turn a sloppy car into a Lotus) handling, with little to no penalty in ride quality. How much it affects the turning circle depends on the car.

Putting 20" wheels on a car designed for 17s just makes no sense though, as it ruins nearly every aspect of the car.

I dont remember who it was, but somebody tested an XKR a few years ago with the standard 18" wheels, and then tried some 20" BBRs from Tire rack with ultra-low profile tires. Slalom speed I think improved maybe 1mph, but ride quality was shot to hell. No thanks.

blkhemi · June 2006

" ...I am willing to live with its reliability but the dealer service and to a lesser extent the MMI are what I am afraid of..."

Yes sir! I look at it everytime I get into my double-covered leather buckets and view out of my leather stitched dashboard. The best 12k option I've ever spent. I'm expecting delivery of my '07 S8 in Nov. Sold the CLS55 for it, which is a very nice car, but does have it's limits, as even MB tells you.

As to the dealer service and MMI, my dealer in the city has been the best behind my Cali MB dealer. Never do I have to ask for anything. They do it all. And the MMI, my 8 year old grandson mastered in 30 mins. Super easy.

BTW: Did you know that the wood in each car is from the same tree? All the hides are from the same skin? I guess this justifies the price in the way Bentley does in it's cars.

hpowders · June 2006

I got news for you. The LS wood in each car is also from the same tree.

I guess in the Camry, the "wood" is all from the same test-tube!

blkhemi · June 2006

I've been gone for a couple of days but have returned to the same old chatter; the LS is superior, all else is obsolete. Such blasphemy.

Now the LS is the top-performer, (Lexus)the best builder(hardly), and outshore MB?? I find this interesting as a few pages ago so many LexiIthinkIcan's were preaching of how the LS was just a crusier and a smidge better than Caddy.

And now jealousy has entered the mix? Jealous of a car that is one tie-rod end bushing from from meeting the ground in turns? Jealous of a car that is so incredibly unclued about how it wants to operate? The Euro suspension? Go and find the 1800 cars that have been sold through '01 to see if it can scratch a S/7/A8/XJ/QP/?? Moreover, jealous of a car that wants to be German so bad it went and got a horribly done plastic surgery job to fit in more? Jealous of unknown identity? I THINK NOT!

Like Merc mentioned, if Lexus can't win, it's not noteworthy. The I-hate-too attitude of the Lexicans proves that we g-carfans dance to our own beat....

blkhemi · June 2006

But it is of the same quality and type of tree? The African mahogany in my car is of the most precious and very rare and very expensive.

The "wood" in the Camry did in fact come from the similation factory that produced the "wood" in the Hyundai Sonata. Very interesting... At leat Honda gives real aluminum.

feverhart · June 2006

Whoa! This rhetoric appears to me like the pot calling the kettle black.

drfill · June 2006

"I've been gone for a couple of days but have returned to the same old chatter; the LS is superior, all else is obsolete. Such blasphemy."

All that's been posted over the last couple of days is Merc's rhetoric. I lost count at 12 posts since I was here last!

Merc

Maybe the S handles a better than the LS. I would put the 7 at the top of the class.

If your point is the S-class is a 1st-rate handler, and the LS second rate, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Does that make the LS an inferior ride to the S-Class, not to me, and not to LS owners. Lexus is building the car to the market, the US, where ride quality is more important than handling.

Discrediting the Euro suspension because you can't find it, or comparing Lexus to Buick is where sour Grapes of Wrath appear.

"This is an agile dancer with slipper shoes."

"It's the Lexus interior that keeps amazing!"

Regarding the S430:

"Fading talent at an AMBITIOUS PRICE."

C&D, Dec 2003.

DrFill

blkhemi · June 2006

What "rhetoric" in which you may be referring to?

hpowders · June 2006

African mahogany. Sounds fabulous!

I remember reading somewhere that the wood in every LS 430 came from the same tree. They never named the tree.
If they did, it "wood" I'm sure have been absolutely loverley!

ljflx · June 2006

C&D gives a win to the LS and it's one writers opinion. Another mag gives a win to a German car and it's the bible. Hillarious. Talk about believing what you want to believe.

Tag - enjoy. If you are going to to the tropics watch out for those rapid flare-up T-storms. Be safe and have a great time my friend.

blckislandguy · June 2006

I read a review over the weekend of the new S Class. The writer liked the car but commented that the entire HELM field is going into overload on gadgetry in order to differentiate themselves. As a result the driver is more and more removed from the picture.

Here's an idea. How about a Technology delete option on the S Class? Check this box off and they either remove or disable the superfluous stuff that no one ever uses. Maybe they even put buttons on the radio. Gee, possibly you could even save 10K AND wind up with a more reliable car. If you checked this off on a Porsche 997 they would put a dipstick back in the oil pan and remove the electronic oil level gauge that is pain to work.

hpowders · June 2006

is correct, IMO. Too much technology.
Some of these cars can actually park themselves!
Where does it end?

Give me that African mahogany and forget the rest.

drfill · June 2006

Automobile also has Audi as a bottom-feeder vs the new S and 750.

I guess this would update their opinion of the A8 as an "All-Star". Looks like it has quickly transitioned to "also-ran" status.

DrFill

reality2 · June 2006

Excellenty stated merc1! Like you I have driven most of the HELM vehicles at a special invite last year. The course included 30 minutes in each of the following: A8L, 7-Series, LS, S-Class, XJ, and even the Phaeton. My observations are exactly like yours regarding the LS. Attempt to corner with the boat at any speed other than grandma's and you might as well be sitting still. It is far away from anything the European HELMs offer in true handling, quality feel, and sport. Probably this is why th LS is popular in American and such a dud in Europe.

drfill · June 2006

With the S430 coming in dead last in C&D's 2003 comparison (behind A8 and Pheaton), and a repeat performance by the S500 in R&T last year, easily beaten by Pheaton, XJ, A8, and 7, is it safe to assume that the US press officially annointed the 2004-5 S430/500 "Worst in Class"?

Merc?

Looks like the S550 can't do any worse than Rock-bottom.

DrFill

reality2 · June 2006

Not quite. The only differentiation stated by the internet article is that the A8L has the least horsepower at this time. Though this will change with the 07 as it moves up in torque and horsepower with a new V8 FSI engine. The comparison was more of showing the difference between the vehicles and not placing one at the bottom of another. Each has its strengths and weakness according to the internet article. Pretty great "also-ran" I would say. Didn't see Lexus in there for comparison. OOPS! Maybe a bigger "also-ran" not worthy of comparison to the Germans. We can all play this bias game if you like.

drfill · June 2006

I'm just relaying facts.

For the nth time, I LIKE THE A8! But the hyperbole has got to stop!

Sounds like you are in the throws of a tremendous backpedal, as you are quick to call the A8 "pretty great" or "Best in class", or words to that effect.

Just trying to find a credible witness that agrees with you on Audi's superior status, besides Hemi, who thinks Audi invented luxury cars.

Don't worry, I'll find someone yet!

But I'm 0-2 so far.

If I have to leave America to find a witness to the A8's superiority......if I have to tear this Universe another Black Hole.....

DrFill

oac · June 2006

Been gone here just over a day and LOTS of posts... and of course, the Merc1 ramblings/downloads...

According to C&D doesn't mean much when I've driven the car to find out that it does indeed handle poorly. Sure the chassis is capable as in capable of providing a good ride, but not much hanlding. See here Doc I don't have to rely on a "review" of anything, I've driven the car. It rolls like the Queen Elizabeth when asked to corner. Blaming it on tires is an easy excuse when the "Euro" model really isn't available.

WOW !!! Didn't think anyone could be so..... oh well... You know what they say: "He who knows not that he knows not...."

'nuff said...

oac · June 2006

C&D gives a win to the LS and it's one writers opinion. Another mag gives a win to a German car and it's the bible. Hillarious. Talk about believing what you want to believe.

Shhhhhh, don't let them hear you say such blasphemy.... Remember, the LS is a piece of junk, with a floaty boat-like ride and handling. Not much worthy of a car, since it puts you to sleep while others DRIVE by you on the freeways... This car does not have any redeeming thing that an Eurocarfan could find about it. It sucks that so many Americans prefer it more than its peers.... These are the know-nothing buyers, who'd rather snooze than drive... Nothing matters until you drive a real car, a German-made sport-luxury sedan. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!

merc1 · June 2006

Merc will serve as Air Europe Commander in your absence.

LOL, I've been on the job for 7 years now! Though after today I'm gone too for a week. So that leaves you and Designman.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Maybe the S handles a better than the LS. I would put the 7 at the top of the class.

Yep it does and the 7 is.

If your point is the S-class is a 1st-rate handler, and the LS second rate, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Bingo! Point finally received!

Does that make the LS an inferior ride to the S-Class, not to me, and not to LS owners. Lexus is building the car to the market, the US, where ride quality is more important than handling.

Apparently it does for some, you know the group that buys S-Classes, 7-Series and A8s. That would be true if the LS costs the same as the other cars it compete with, but as it stands you don't know which is more important with the LS selling for thousands upon thousands less money which is a major part of its success. Some have actually said that the S-Class rides better than the LS anyway so that statement really doesn't hold water. The almighty Consumer Reports (a Lexican favorite) preferred the ride of the S to the LS I believe.

Discrediting the Euro suspension because you can't find it, or comparing Lexus to Buick is where sour Grapes of Wrath appear.

No, it points out how pointless this option is because Lexus LS buyers don't know anything (or care) about handling.

I do like how you choose to keep bringing up the one comparo that said something favorable about the LS430's handling while ignoring all the others that say it is dynamically challenged. That is a really well balanced argument Doc.

M

merc1 · June 2006

C&D gives a win to the LS and it's one writers opinion. Another mag gives a win to a German car and it's the bible. Hillarious. Talk about believing what you want to believe.

I hope this goes for the Doc too which only seems to remember a C&D comparo compared to others in which the LS430 DID NOT win.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Thanks. Well that and the look of the thing, it is just downright dated and ugly from most angles IMO.

M

merc1 · June 2006

With the S430 coming in dead last in C&D's 2003 comparison (behind A8 and Pheaton), and a repeat performance by the S500 in R&T last year, easily beaten by Pheaton, XJ, A8, and 7, is it safe to assume that the US press officially annointed the 2004-5 S430/500 "Worst in Class"?

Well it looks like you're stuck on one comparo, but I guess that is to be expected. It would appear to me that the SC430 shares the same distinction within its class, but unlike the S-Class it has never been anything. Also your SC430 was just a couple of years old when it gots its windshield kicked in by the SL and others, but the S was the oldest car in that comparo by a good number of years.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Oac I was convinced some time ago that you don't really know what handling is. Secondly when anyone here uses a magazine comparo in defense of a Germancar it means nothing, but now all of sudden you're a C&D fan and swear by everything they say because they put the LS on top.

Have you ever driven any of the cars we're talking about here for yourself? Specifically the 7-Series, A8, XJ, S-Class? I seriously doubt you've ever driven the Audi, BMW and most definitely not the Mercedes. You're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about here concerning handling. How many more owners of both of these cars have to join in here to say what I've been saying all along before you get it? Even the Doc seems to understand the point about the LS' handling. The LS does not handle as well the German competition, period.

M

merc1 · June 2006

I hear what you're saying, but I think you and Sam are the minority on that. If you look any of the various boards for buyers on these cars (both on Edmunds and elsewhere) these buyers love to load these cars up it seems and feel that once a car crosses a certain dollar amount that it should have everything possible. Mercedes has done a lot over the last few years to remove some redundant functions, and the S didn't get all the gee-whiz tech that the rumor mill had predicted, but still....

I predict this will only get worse before it gets better. It is going to either be the MMI/Idrive/Comand way or whole lot of buttons everywhere, either way loads of "stuff".

M

lexusguy · June 2006

"Fish face flounders under pressure". Good read.

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1134190,00.html

oac · June 2006

Ahhhhhh ! Now its me who don't know jack ! Great.... FWIW, some of us have real jobs, and don't spend all our time kicking car tires on weekends. But if its important to you, thankfully I have real uppity friends with nice rides.... YES, I have driven MBs many many times.... Maybe you forgot my mention of my good buddy who's got an S500 and a 740i, and was looking to buy an LS. Well, he lets me drive his German cars plenty... He and I competed on SUVs.. He bought an Escallade, while I went with the LX470... Lets say we have a healthy rivalry.... Favored driving 330i, 528 (not driven a 530i yet, but with a 330i, not much different, I guess), 540/740/745, S500, E320, C230 Kompressor (no SL or CL). No Audi except A6, no Jag (sorry, LG, but I cannot stand Jags...).

Handling ? Me do not know jack about handling.... Thanks for reminding me, Merc1... Now, should I remind you about putting your money where your mouth is, or is it all talk and no action ?

merc1 · June 2006

I agree, they hardly considered the A8L an "also ran". The S of course is first, but for me the A8L would be a very close second. The only BMW in modern times that I still can't stand to look at is the 7-Series, though it is a very imposing, attention-getting car, but it ain't pretty.

M

merc1 · June 2006

Now there is a very informed response.

I repeat, IMO anyone that thinks the LS430 handles as good as the German cars in this class doesn't know anything about handling, no matter what their "job" is. What a person does for a living (unless we have some automotive writers here) is beyond irrelevant and smacks of sheer desperation. The LS does not match the handling of the Germancars in this class, and no review has ever said as much, not even that C&D review you love to tout. That bit about the LS being a "dancer with slippery shoes" is just like all the guesses you've thrown out about what the LS430 COULD DO if it had better tires/suspension, in short mere speculation and nothing factual.

Oh I almost forgot, the last and final resort of a beaten Lexusfan is the "you can't talk here because you don't own one" angle. Way beyond tired. I guess that is all that is left when you're the last to see the obvious on this particular subject, and the diversions into members personal lives just underlines it all. Now if me not owning a Lexus means I'm wrong here then it goes the same way for you by not owning a Mercedes because you say you've driven MB's many times and of course I have too.

Even more evidence to support your obvious bias here that won't allow you to even consider that the LS430 doesn't handle as well as the German competition; you preferred driving certain BMWs, and you say you've driven the cars we talk about here, yet you think the LS430 handles as well as the Germancars in this class. Amazingly you can identify what handling is in those other cars, but can't in this class of car. That my friend is either blind bias or just now knowing what handling is in the first place.

Again, why don't you ask the members here that have owned both the previous S and LS430 and see what they say as far as how the cars compare handling wise. Driving a friend's S500 as opposed to owning it means what here when I've driven (and can drive one) as much as you? Come to think of it you don't own a LS430 either. Makes sense now. As long as you own a car by the brand in question it enables you to discuss handling about any of their cars. I got it!

M

lexusguy · June 2006

(sorry, LG, but I cannot stand Jags...).

Heh, thats ok. I dont like most of them either. The X and S type are mediocre at best cars that definitely pale in comparison to the classic Jag saloons that their names hearken back to.

The XJ is at least decent, but there's nothing really special about it. It cant match the technology of an S550 or LS460, it's not as comfortable as the LS, and it cant handle like the Germans. The thing I dislike most about it though are some incredibly cheap feeling trim pieces that are in the worst possible places imaginable (plastic door handles!!).

Really the only thing that Jag has gotten right in the post-Ford days is the XK. I haven't gotten a chance to drive the new one yet, but the reviews all seem to be pretty positive.

hpowders · June 2006

Nobody said the LS "is a piece of junk." None of these HELM are.
Or that "others drive by you on the freeways" (which are hardly ever free, these days!).
As a freeway cruiser, the LS is probably at its best.

The critics are referring to road isolation, little feedback and a distinct lack of agility-pretty much what Lexus gives you across the board.
Obviously, a lot of people don't care, but that doesn't make the criticism any less valid.

drfill · June 2006

"I hope this goes for the Doc too which only seems to remember a C&D comparo compared to others in which the LS430 DID NOT win."

I've used R&T and Automobile to make my points, not just C&D. PLus, Merc, the Lexus LS has won more than one comparo! The previous generation beat all comers, including the S, as well!

These mags LOVE your Autobahn demons, but for all of it's poor handling, it's like Dwayne Wade when it's time to win!

The LS is a better car than the Germans, if things like interior, drivetrain, smoothness, fit and finish, braking, ride, seating, features, acceleration, price means anything.

"I do like how you choose to keep bringing up the one comparo that said something favorable about the LS430's handling while ignoring all the others that say it is dynamically challenged. That is a really well balanced argument Doc."

As I've stated long before this discussion, C&D has the most well-thought out, balanced comparisons. They don't over-value sports car moves, they always have a scorecard so it isn't too subjective to find a winner, and they back up their objective results with logical conclusions.

My ONLY beef over the years is their "10 Best" list is never as well conceived! Many times their comparison winners are removed from the List by vehicles it has defeated previously in the year, then they say they retested the cars at the "10 Best", and then compromise the value of their monthly tests, which is the strength of the magazine in the first place.

Vehicles winning "10 Best" include Pontiac 6000 and Merkur Xr4Ti, and Audi TT!

"It would appear to me that the SC430 shares the same distinction within its class, but unlike the S-Class it has never been anything."

Is that the best you can do? So you admit the S-Class has been an "also-ran" for years? Out on vacation with a whimper!

"I do like how you choose to keep bringing up the one comparo that said something favorable about the LS430's handling while ignoring all the others that say it is dynamically challenged. That is a really well balanced argument Doc."

That very same C&D comparison had the LS dead last in objective dynamic handling numbers! Fortunately, C&D doesn't say if it is a class-best handler, the car has no value, like you do.

All they do say is:

"This is an agile dancer wearing slippery shoes!"

You can beat your chest til you're blue in the face. When the 460 gets here, your game is over, dude! Game over!

What ya gonna do when the 460 runs wild on you?

Lexusmania is running wild!

DrFill

houdini1 · June 2006

Tagman, as usual I enjoyed your post on affordability very much and there has been much (way to much) talk about how Lexus LS is deservedly priced well below the Merc S class.

I believe that most unbiased people that are fairly intelligent would recognize that the LS is priced below the S, for the most part, simply because of labor costs and not because it is a lesser car.

Why do I say this? If you compare the used car pricing of a 2001 LS 430 with a 2001 S 430 right here on Edmunds, the LS pricing is substantially HIGHER. The fact that this is so, in my opinion, sums up the pricing discussion between these two great cars. The marketplace doesn't lie.

designman · June 2006

Go ahead, bask in the glory of that win. My point is that it wins on luxury and is virutally last on performance. Even the writer alludes to it, but drfill quoted him out of context which is spin on the docs part.

Heres how those quotes should be presented:

If you just walked up and asked, we'd say this is not a Car and Driver sort of car.

The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better.

(Ha! Adding sinew makes it worse? Theres your luxury-soft ride criteria right there.)

The 17s on the test car were quick to moan when pushed. Skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g. But don't confuse that with stumbling behavior. This is an agile dancer wearing slippery shoes.

Like I said previously, you can talk Lexus and the LS to its strong points, but trying to slip performance in there just isnt going to work. The 745 won that comparo on performance.

designman · June 2006

Doc, you show flashes of honesty, objectiveness, credibility and semi-brilliance at times but when you finish off with Lexusmania is running wild it merely shows the spin that I just mentioned above, and that which the German-car fans take umbrage to, and why Merc always surgically picks you guys apart.

Lexicans the spin work on it.

Thank you.

ljflx · June 2006

Great post. What I find hillarious is Merc needs to say it's one writer's opinion and then spin it in your direction. You've accepted the other mags but he can't even begin to digest the C&D review and is going to be biting his nails over the upcoming 460 reviews.

drfill · June 2006

Hey, am I not allowed to show a little World Cup fever?

This is not the NFL! I can spike the ball, do a litte Sack Dance!

If you call me calling him out on S-Class' poor media performances, and him quickly changing the subject to the SC430 "picking you apart", go 'head!

My point is Mercedes, not just the S-Class, has struggled for media accolades in the US. And a car Team Europe has called a Buick, with horrible handling, flat seats, no power, little feedback, has won over hardened auto enthusiasts mags, and has beaten prettier, more agile, more powerful Mercedes models head-to-head.

And Lexus is holding back! The thunder in our lineup is on deck!

Lexus hasn't even hit it's stride yet! The IS350 is just a taste, and with the VDIM getting defeated in the IS for 2007, it's just another step in The Pursuit!

What ya gonna do.......

DrFill

drfill · June 2006

Just like Riley last night with "15 Strong!", that's our new Team Lexus Slogan.

So are you saying I'm honest, credible, objective, and super-brilliant (semi-brilliant just doesn't do it for me), but then I say something that ticks off Team Europe, like Justin Leonard, sinking a put to beat Europe and win the Ryder Cup, then whipping the crowd into a frenzy?

(he's onto me.)

DrFill

topspin628 · June 2006

I guess when I said "screwed together" I was also referring to quality. It's just my "seat of the pants" evaluation after having driven these luxury sedans. To me the Audi still feels a step behind in build quality. I don't find that "vault" like feeling in the A8 that is in the S, LS or 7 series. It almost feels like "luxury lite".
The new S is certainly a striking looking ride and if the quality is back to MB standards then it will be a clear winner. Only issue I have with it besides being out of my comfort zone price wise is the fact that to me it looks like a car that one should be chauffeured in rather than drive themselves. That's another reason I passed on the A8. The back was cavernous and I felt very self conscious driving it alone.
As for the looks of the current LS, I for one feel that it has classic, conservative good looks and definitely has a presence on the road. When I recall the MB's of the late 70s and early 80's which first started to appear as "status symbols" in Beverly Hills where I worked, they were also very conservative and not what one would call style leaders (with the exception of the SL). Their panache and status came from price, relative scarcity and perceived (and real) quality. Those attributes were then associated with the brand and their styling then became desirable. I remember they were very much function over form vehicles that were ergonomically superior to the competition and featured a rather "no nonsense" interior. Everything that was there had a purpose and its purpose was accomplished in the most simple and efficient way possible.

blkhemi · June 2006

LG, doc, topspin and others, why has the A8 and S become the root of topic here? Top says the A8 is so horridly put together yet it is the most wanted by the editors on this very forum for '06(no Lexus to be found)!! The S is so passe, yet it is easily more recognized than a bloated Toyota, and it has more prestige to boot.

Build Quality? It is known all over the world that it is very hard to top Audi's rock-solid construction, precision, execution of details, use of materials. And Mercedes has now been quoted several times as one of the "top builders" by many respected journalist(Csba Csere- the C&D Ed-In-Chief that Doc loves to talk about). While true the W220 did have it share of woes, the W221 is entirely different beast, and please quote me on that one. The LS is staid in comparison to both of them, despsite the interior freshening. Sit in a S550 and A8, then try a LS, shiny maple and all.

Performance. The LexIthinkIcans can rant all you want about a 3 year old test that the LS "won", but if the S500 was there, it would've been an entirely different playing field. True, both the A8 and S is a step behind the 7 in the adhesion department, but the Lexus is, well, Park Avenue-esque in the turns(don't want to sound "bad"-but it is). So strange that all of sudden MB,BMW, and Audi are getting hammered on performance models of the big cars, but why did Lexus say that the "600" will have the performance to hang with the "big guys"?? Now Lexus has joined the autobahn stormers?? Very interesting indeed.

hpowders · June 2006

the C&D comparo started with a disclaimer that the LS is not the type of vehicle usually reviewed by the magazine, to me means take the finding with a huge grain of salt.

I have never seen any auto mag. issue such a disclaimer for any of the thousands of vehicles tested over the last 30 years.

oac · June 2006

Even more evidence to support your obvious bias here that won't allow you to even consider that the LS430 doesn't handle as well as the German competition...

Merc1: Every one else is biased but not you. After disecting your entire diatribe and snide remarks, I condense everything down to this: all you got left to hang your hat on is handling, eh ? Talk of desperation... Lexus provides me nothing in return beyond the pleasure of their cars and trucks. What about you ? You get paid for trumpeting MBs are great the world over ??? Geez... what if an MB outhandles an LS, then what ? You get a victory lap for that ? 'scuse moi.... Like I have said, repeatedly, NO one has tested an LS with 18" rims AND the Euro suspension against a comparable S. If you know of it, let's hear it. I am sure YOU have not driven such a car against your much vaunted S-class, despite your holier-than-thou attitude and knowledge about MBs and the LS.

As to why I don't go around kicking tires every weekend cos I got better things to do, sorry if that offends your automotive spirits.... I got lots better things to do than indulge in a one-track-minded automotive digest like some people here on Edmunds. I don't need to drive all these cars to form an opinion, just as your not owning any of these cars make you an "informed" poster... Sheesh !

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