High End Luxury Cars

pg48477 · July 2006

I can see a point for Acura to develop new NSX as they always tried to sell sporty cars. Lexus on the other hand is a cruiser company emphasizing on luxury, in fact sport is not in the top 10 priorities of Lexus. There is no doubt Toyota can produce competitive car in the GT class, I just dont see the point. Well, maybe one. Lexus need to create a name for itself in Europe and nice GT entry just might do it. Reliability in not the firs priority overseas so high revving V10 will fit right in.

PS Again, no way GT will have 12000 RPM V10 and no way this car will weight 2600lbs; just my opinion.

pg48477 · July 2006

" The World has changed since June 1993, but Toyota/Lexus has only changed for the better."

If you mean soft and blend is better, you might just have something there. In 1990s Toyota and Honda were on the top of the world with the best products available. Today, they do not produce anything to brag about, so as far as Im concerned Toyota changed for worse. They do make a lot of money, though.

pat · July 2006

We are s'posed to be talking about the high end marques, not getting into debates about the manufacturers and their less-than-high-end models ...

ljflx · July 2006

"Lexus on the other hand is a cruiser company emphasizing on luxury, in fact sport is not in the top 10 priorities of Lexus"

Lexus is all of 16 years old, is very profitable and is a part of a juggernaut that can build any car it wants to. Do you really think their strategy is as cut and dry as your post after only 16 years of life and having access to pockets that are far deeper than anyone elses. Did you ever hear of a LT strategic plan that evolves over time? They are just starting to branch out.

ljflx · July 2006

"Today, they do not produce anything to brag about, so as far as Im concerned Toyota changed for worse. They do make a lot of money, though."

And the reason for making so much money is that they are better than ever and they make cars that more and more people buy and repeat buy every year. Buying is the ultimate bragging.

blkhemi · July 2006

"...why did yo0u include the SL65?"

Retraction needed; meant to say SL55. And you're once again downgrading the brilliant engine technology that American engines have used for over 100 years: Pushrods. The engines are so staid yet C6-R and Viper GTS-R will shred the European comp to a pulp, the C6 winning countless accolades. Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....

designman · July 2006

All I'm sayin' is, as they did with the Legend that was Supra, if they want to make the best sports car, or Supercar, in the World, I wouldn't dare say they couldn't.

I wouldn't bet against them.

Im not betting against them and yes they can do anything they want. The problem is they really dont want to. Toyota sport is flash in the pan. Where is the Supra, Celica? Where is the MR2, another great little car? And dont tell me they had good runs. Where are the successors to these cars?

They dont stick with a plan and I expect the Lexus GT will be no different. They fall back on snoozers. With their resources they can perpetuate sport models even if they are not as profitable. But they choose not to because sport just isnt in their blood. Theres no real commitment to it. Toyota/Lexus sport is like miniature golf.

Does someone looking to spend $150k on a real sports car want to buy from a company with that type of heritage? I even think most LS owners looking to spend that kind of money on a sports car would choose a Porsche or SL over the Lexus GT.

Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....

Amen.

lexusguy · July 2006

Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....

How about the Skyline GT-R?

"The GT-R's success in motor racing was formidable, particularly in the annual race at the Mount Panorama circuit in Bathurst, Australia, where the champion three years running was a GT-R (despite receiving additional weight penalties in years two and three due to its unbeatable performance), and in the Japanese GT series where it has remained dominant up to the present day.

No other race victories by the GT-R could escape without controversies, at the 1990 Macau Grand Prix Guia touring car race, the factory backed R32 driven by Masahiro Hasemi led the race from the start to the finishing line which caused a wave of protests by the European entrants. The following year, the car was forced to carry a weight penalty of 140 kg very much to his frustration and had to settle for fourth place against the top three DTM specification race winning BMW M3 and Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II. The GT-R's success at Mount Panorama in 1991 and 1992, both by Jim Richards, led to a change in formula regulations, which came to exclude turbocharged and four-wheel-drive cars in subsequent years. It also led indirectly to a move to the Super Touring Car category in the JTCC and the creation of the JGTC grand touring car series in Japan, where GT-Rs can only compete in rear-wheel drive form - and still win."

The Skyline has dominated racing for 30+ years. It was so good that the Europeans had to whine "unfair! unfair!" and get the Skyline crippled so they could at least have a chance.

blkhemi · July 2006

And with all that said, we're still waiting on the car here in the States. I've driven the car in Osaka, and to tell you the truth, the car is wicked fast with a very capable suspension to match. I'm very aware of it's many award-winning races and it's legendary heritage for over 30 years. This car may very well change the perception of how the cars in it's class are viewed.

I'm very glad that the Japanese have finally gotten serious enough to send street versions of the race cars to the States, as with every German make. But to say it will change the face of the game is a little reaching....

maxhonda99 · July 2006

"Does someone looking to spend $150k on a real sports car want to buy from a company with that type of heritage? "

Doesn't make much sense. You know 16 years ago people were saying pretty much the same thing about Lexus. You know it went kinda like this..."Toyota has no luxury heritage, who's gonna buy a $40K luxury Toyota?". Boy, look what happened with those types of statements.

I'm not saying a Lexus $150K Sports Car will be successful. ONly time and sales figures will tell whether it's a success or a failure. But I will tell you the heritage B.S. is lame for one, and second Lexus has already proved a great product can overcome a lack of "heritage".

pg48477 · July 2006

I never denied that Lexus or Toyota is not profitable; but it does not change a fact that they do not produce any exiting vehicles. The last one was Supra in 1990s. The statement that they can build anything they want is just bogus; Google or Microsoft can build any car they want as well; they sure have enough money, even though they not in the car business. Why can you just admit it; Lexus is good at building luxury cruisers and LS is a perfect example; argument that they can build exiting car does not change a fact that they never did.

maxhonda99 · July 2006

Huh. May not be "exiting" to you but a whole lot of people believe the IS series is pretty exciting. Sure maybe not as exciting as the BMW 3-series, but it's pretty close to BMW, and alot closer to a exciting car like a 3-series than probably any other car in it's class. The Lexus SC of the mid to late 90's was also a pretty exciting car, but you probably wouldn't know that anyway, that is after all how it got on C&Ds 10-best list year after year. The previous IS was also a exciting car, again maybe not as exciting as a 3-series, but darn close.

pg48477 · July 2006

IS is an all American exiting 0-60 in 5.1, not exactly what exiting is in my book. If you would drive one you would know it is not a drivers car, just like any other Lexus.

blkhemi · July 2006

Not here to argue the success of the IS. It is close to the 3-Series. but definetely no cigar. And others in the class, mainly the G35, nips at it's heels a lot better than the IS does. Sure the IS has hp, but it doesn't have the bones to scare a 330i. The previous IS was about as exciting as watching paint dry, which is why it often came in the back of the pack in many tests. Even Lexus admitted that a tarted-up Japanese market Toyota won't cut it here, hence the magnificent 2nd-gen.

The SC of the '90's had very little competition. And yes, it did place in C&D's 10 Best, but with the Lincoln Mark and Caddy Eldo as your main competition, there was little to cry over. And the current SC is, well, bluntly a dissappointment in style and handling, all of the things cars in this class are suppose to possess, hence it's lack of public attraction.

maxhonda99 · July 2006

IS all american?? THat is ridiculously funny!! By that measure the only cars that are exciting are either made by BMW or Porsche. Nice joke!

maxhonda99 · July 2006

Some of your statements are funny. The previous IS came in the back of the pack in may tests, huh? I suggest you do a check and go pull out every old major magazine comparison test and see how many of those comparisons the IS actually came in at the back of the pack. Most of them, the IS actually posted in the top couple.

The SC would have never made it to top 10 had a Mark or Eldo been it's main competition, hence the SC300 5-speed manual was the only model that was a 10-best. If you think the SC was a competitor to the Eldo or Mark you truly shouldn't be talking in this forum.''

Just my two pennies. Continue with your exciting two pennies.

designman · July 2006

Make all of the arguments against heritage that you want. Lexus was successful because of Toyotas heritage, that of price and reliability. Back when Lexus was launched buyers had nothing to go by except heritage. If Lexus was a scratch-built creation of Handyman Harry Inc. instead of Toyota, guess what, they dont sell many cars because Handyman Harry's reliability is unknown. Same thing with Acura. The Legend was a luxury Honda and people like the idea of these cars because of what Toyota and Honda brought to the table well before then.

oac · July 2006

Lexus was successful because of Toyotas heritage, that of price and reliability.

True. But Lexus also came to the table with a 32-valve V8 motor that was pretty quiet, refined, and powerful (for its time). Add the price discount, the history behind building the LS and you'll understand its success factor. So what if Lexus tries another go at a sporting car with this GT car, and comes to the table with everything else a 911 Turbo or SL55 has but a higher revving, torquey V10 motor, that will do 200mph with some aplomb. Maybe no one will mistake a Lexus for a Ferrari or Porsche, but Lexus sure bets even if they sell a pittance, a sporty Lexus GT sports car, with an F-1 sounding motor, and the grunt to boot will give some street cred to Lexus cars.... Besides, the point Len is making is that Lexus has the cash to do anything they want, and the GT is one such car.... Just for the heck of it... Anything wrong with that ?

merc1 · July 2006

Trust me I understand the criteria for the appeal study, but it still underlines my original point. If the cars at the bottom of the reliability studies sucked so badly why would people likely woudln't find anything appealing about them. I've always said that reliability is important, but it isn't everything, obviously.

M

lexusguy · July 2006

Make all of the arguments against heritage that you want. Lexus was successful because of Toyotas heritage, that of price and reliability. Back when Lexus was launched buyers had nothing to go by except heritage.

Consider this. Maserati's "heritage" when they came back to the states was makers of Chrysler powered pieces of total garbage. It couldn't have been much worse, and yet the Coupe and Spyder did well in their initial year. I think if the Lexus GT turns out to be a great car, people will give it a chance as with Maserati, regardless of what the Lexus heritage may be.

merc1 · July 2006

So what is it going to be the S8 or the S65?

M

merc1 · July 2006

Funny how Toyota fans brag about Toyota's money and how they can build anything they want, yet they won't make the GS a real 5-Series competitor nor will they put a stick in the IS to make it a real 3-Series competitor. Just because Toyota has all the money doesn't mean they can build anything they want, the execution is what is important, not just how much money you have. Some companies made some of their best cars when their backs were against the wall and they had to have a hit. Money doesn't mean squat if the exectuion is off.

About this Lexus sports car, I too think that Lexus will have to throw out their traditional rule book to matter in the league with Ferrari, Porsche etc. That said I don't think they're testing this thing on the "Ring" for nothing. I think it will be a real sports car, not a GT car like a SL or 6-Series.

This about Lexus making something "exciting" right now in 2006 is hilarious. Nothing but trucks, sedans and convertible that drives like a sedan. This would seem exciting for those who don't know what "excitement" is. That said, I'd pick the IS350 as their most "exciting" car. It was a lot of fun at the Taste of Lexus.

M

lexusguy · July 2006

This about Lexus making something "exciting" right now in 2006 is hilarious. Nothing but trucks, sedans and convertible that drives like a sedan. This would seem exciting for those who don't know what "excitement" is. That said, I'd pick the IS350 as their most "exciting" car. It was a lot of fun at the Taste of Lexus.

Yeah, the IS350 is definitely the best of the current lot. It's a good car, and rocket fast in a straight line, but just ok in the corners. They need to send it to somebody like Lotus, and have them spec out a proper sport-tuned suspension. Plenty of companies send their cars to Lotus to get them to handle properly, there's no shame in it.

oac · July 2006

Funny how Toyota fans brag about Toyota's money and how they can build anything they want, yet they won't make the GS a real 5-Series competitor nor will they put a stick in the IS to make it a real 3-Series competitor.

Funny how MB fans brag about all the handling and performance prowress of their brand, yet they need Dr Z to market and sell these cars for them.... Hah ! Do people not appreciate a good marque for what it is - overpriced!!!

But on a serious note, I agree with you Merc1 that Lexus really could use a better handling/sporty GS. I think the IS is close already, they'd need to remove the VDIM nanny and put a stick in the IS350. For the '07 GS350, it should come with a 6MT and no VDIM, that would be ideal. Then bring in an IS500/6MT as an M/S/AMG fighter, after the GT car is released, say MY2009, to buttress Lexus' budding sporting interests... A company makes incremental changes along the way as they build a long and viable business. Lexus/Toyota didn't get to the top of the heap by being stupid.... Give them time and watch what they do, and we'll see what direction they go from here.

blkhemi · July 2006

"For the '07 GS350, it shoulf come with a 6MT and no VDIM..."

I completely agree. But the Toyota Lawyers aren't going to ever let that happen. The same with MB, with both systems to never shut completely off. A 6-speed stick would definetely run with a 5-Series, and a more sporting suspension woulf raise it's seriousness very high.

blkhemi · July 2006

Some of your statements are not only hilarious, they're very inaccurate. The SC's comp in '90's did include the Eldo and Mark. True they were the heavy weights of that time and bigger than the SC, but so was the Legend Coupe, Buick Rivera and first gen CLK. And the thing about the stick tranny, What's that suppose to prove? Not many cars at that time in that class offered sticks, both domestic and abroad. If not a comp, then why was it included in countless luxury coupe tests? What was it's main competition if not Mark and Eldo.

And the previous IS, I'm not going to even entertain that as if you think that car was superior to the 3, G35, A4, and even TL, then there is something definetely not correct with the way we're discussing things and maybe you could consider visiting another forum....

blkhemi · July 2006

That's what I've been saying all this time. How can(1) the car be an unreliable piece of junk and (2) be the shining star in APEAL? It just doesn't add up, no matter how you cut it.

blkhemi · July 2006

So what is it goinf to be the S8 or S65?

I don't know, maybe both!? My daughter and son in law are expecting and her S4 Cab and his Porsche 911 Turbo ain't gonna cut it. So maybe for a present, I may give them the W-12 since it has proved to be extremely reliable. That opens the door for the S8(wife) and S65(all me). :P

pat · July 2006

I realize how we got here and I'm talking to everyone, not just you, but we really need to keep the conversation focused on the upper end vehicles. We can't go wandering all over every model every manufacturer makes.

syswei · July 2006

I think that the point of APEAL is that it does not measure reliability. So a car can do well in the quality studies and poorly in the APEAL study, or vice versa.

blkhemi · July 2006

Doesn't the "E" in APEAL stand for execution? That being the case, why is reliability not included. Execution means the total package. Altho a vehicle looks good, wouldn't you want to drive it also?

lexusguy · July 2006

For the '07 GS350, it should come with a 6MT and no VDIM, that would be ideal. Then bring in an IS500/6MT as an M/S/AMG fighter, after the GT car is released, say MY2009

That'll never happen on the GS. It's never had a manual gearbox, and it never will. Some sort of SMG is a remote possibility, but it will never be a true three pedal car. I'll eat my hat if Lexus gives the GS a 6MT. There are rumors that Lexus will turn the song and dance you currently have to do to get VDIM to go away into an actual VDIM off button, but I dont think anything has been confirmed.

What I'd like to see is the IS350 mated with AWD.

oac · July 2006

I'll eat my hat if Lexus gives the GS a 6MT.

very funny indeed !.... Yes, LG, you do have a gift of words...

And I'll eat my hat as well if the GS ever gets a true 3-pedal MT, that's why I said "it would be ideal"... I didn't say it will happen anytime soon

AWD on the 350 would just be way too much weight to drag around. Improve the balance on the car to a 49.5/50.5 weight distribution, give it a stick, a kill switch for the nanny, and stiffen its suspenders a tad (bilstein/tein coilovers, a brace, etc) and it'll stump on an e90 330i...

AND pls Lexus, bring a vert/coupe IS350 as well as an IS500/6MT... in 2 years tops...

blkhemi · July 2006

Even better for the IS, please give a legit 6-speed to row your own to get maximum thrust out of the now ubiquitous 3.5L.

More on the Lexus subject. I read on a Tokyo site where the upcoming LS may offer a true Sport option, as in 750/60i Sport and Audi A8 Sport Pkg. with a 20" wheel/tire option and 4 position electronic air suspension, much like Audi's 4-way adjustable air/pneumatic suspension.

I surely hope this is true as the upcoming LS is hugely awaited. There is even talk that the 600H may have the Sport pkg. as standard. But very unlikely to be our standard offering on either model, much like how the European makes do.

drfill · July 2006

The 2007 IS will have a VDIM kill-switch.

The future gets so bright.....

I gotta wear :shades:

Someday, the IS350 will have a stick, and the world will be better place, no doubt.

DrFill

oac · July 2006

Goodie... goodie.... That sounds swell for Lexus to do this. Geez ! A true SP for an LS series ? BTW, the 600hL comes standard with AWD, so tuning it for a sporty feel should not be too much of a stretch. I don't see us getting the SWB 600H anytime soon, which is sad really cos that car really belong here as well. Oh well....

The Tokyo CarMag of May 2006 listed the 600hL with massive 19" rims, and upgrading that to 20" + AWD + HSD = lots of weight... How would this car handle all that weight ? At projected 430HP, that may not be cutting it, IMO. But with all these good news around the corner for Lexus, do you suppose that this is deja vu all over again ??

lexusguy · July 2006

AWD on the 350 would just be way too much weight to drag around. Improve the balance on the car to a 49.5/50.5 weight distribution, give it a stick, a kill switch for the nanny, and stiffen its suspenders a tad (bilstein/tein coilovers, a brace, etc) and it'll stump on an e90 330i...

I'm sure they could keep the weight gain down to a reasonable 150lbs or so. 0-60 might be up to 5.5 seconds, oh, the horror. The added grip would be worth it. A few years ago, Top Gear tested a RS6 against an E55 in the wet. The E was nearly uncontrollable, while the RS6, despite the all wrong weight distribution, stayed glued to the track and smoked the RWD E.

merc1 · July 2006

They need to send it to somebody like Lotus, and have them spec out a proper sport-tuned suspension. Plenty of companies send their cars to Lotus to get them to handle properly, there's no shame in it.

I could have sworn that I read here somewhere that Porsche was involved in the fine tuning of the handling of the GS or IS????

M

merc1 · July 2006

I hear what you're saying OAC about the GS, but a stick shift in a mid-sizer isn't going to happen from MB, Lexus, or anyone else for that matter, except BMW. No market for it. People who buy E/GSs don't want to row their own gears. The A6 might find a few buyers for a stick shifted A6, but not MB or Lexus. If Lexus gave the GS350 a stick then the IS350 should get one too since it is the same powertrain.

You're right about Toyota/Lexus not getting where they are by being stupid, but that same straight laced practice is what keeps them out of the hunt with enthusiasts. Their business side won't allow them to put a stick shift in a car like a GS350 and apparently the IS350 because the sales (think business) would be so few. This is where European companies are willing to take the risk and cater to the enthusiasts. Mercedes doesn't sell many C230 or C350 manuals, but I have seen them at the dealer before. If Lexus/Toyota would let their hair down some they'd gain some traction with the Eurocarfans. Toyota and Lexus don't have a single sporty 2-door car worth mentioning, the Scion TC and Lexus SC430 don't cut it when they've built something like a Supra in the past. I'd buy a Toyota Supra in a minute if they built one for the sole purpose of being a 350Z killer.

M

merc1 · July 2006

I can't wait to see what you decide!

M

oac · July 2006

I agree 100%....

Lawyers and bean counters... What will the world be without them ?

designman · July 2006

Consider this. Maserati's "heritage" when they came back to the states was makers of Chrysler powered pieces of total garbage. It couldn't have been much worse, and yet the Coupe and Spyder did well in their initial year.

Aw cmon. Its just not true and the statement is very un-Lexusguy. Surely you are not groping to reduce Maserati heritage to Chryslers TC by Maserati, an ephemeral, trivial relationship that isnt even worth mentioning.

Even though Maserati is one of automotive historys orphans, it is a lust marque in the ilk of Sophia Loren thanks to the Italian DNA. In addition, the current Masers came to the states courtesy of Ferrari.

Lastly, how many dreams have you had of Soph I mean owning a Quattroporte?

;-)

designman · July 2006

Lay that Chrysler stuff on Merc, not me.

:P

lexusguy · July 2006

Aw cmon. Its just not true and the statement is very un-Lexusguy. Surely you are not groping to reduce Maserati heritage to Chryslers TC by Maserati, an ephemeral, trivial relationship that isnt even worth mentioning.

I didn't say that's what Maserati always was. I've defended Maserati on this board before. My point was that people didn't consider the Bi-turbo and the QP of the '80s and then skip Maserati's comeback cars because of how bad they were.

dewey · July 2006

Heritage seems to be of overwhelming importance here. I honestly dont see what the fuss is all about?

Reminds me of a BMW ad in the early 1980s with the following slogan:

A pedigree car is defined by the fancy ornament on its hood , but a BMW is defined by what is under its hood . (unfortunately I cant recall the exact words of the ad)

Interestingly BMW heritage in the USA begins not with a HELM or a luxury performance vehicle but with a VW Bug slayer called the BMW 600:

Despite such a heritage I chose to buy a BMW 530xi Touring anyways. So much for heritage!

lexusguy · July 2006

Interestingly BMW heritage in the USA begins not with a HELM or a luxury performance vehicle but with a VW Bug slayer called the BMW 600:

I think BMW's true heritage today begins with the M1. Despite all of its compromises and flaws, it started the M division and gave the world the M3 and M5. BMW before that was always second-fiddle to Mercedes.

blkhemi · July 2006

We all have to start somewhere. BMW came from that to being the power player and profit packing monster it is today.

dewey · July 2006

I think BMW's true heritage today begins with the M1.

In other words based on your timeline BMW's true heritage is not much older than the heritage of Lexus or Infiniti.

So now you may ask what exactly is my point? My point is heritage in itself is quite meaningless. In fact Lincoln and Cadillac have far stronger heritages than both BMW or Lexus but that fact in itself will not sway many to buy a Cadillac or Lincoln instead.

quemfala · July 2006

I"ve been perusing these boards looking for financial and technical info on various marques. It's been a great education. I Love the interplay and comparisons between the companies. But I have a question -- doesn't anybody "buy" a car anymore? Especially with the bimmer lovers -- are they the Hertz of the future? What's going to happen with these used cars? It's great to see the stats on the car "sales", but are they really sales? I'm venturing a guess that BMW, nevermind the current add campaign about being and "independent" company, will soon be folded into a financially stronger company. just an opinion, but it will happen.

ljflx · July 2006

Merc,

There was a blurb in an auto mags news section a few years ago about the GS and Porsche. I posted that so maybe that is your reference. Don't know if there was any truth to it or if the mag even had good data. That was the only time and place I saw that so no confirms ever existed.

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