Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
If Lexus is targeting the S600 and 760Li in volume, about 1000 each a year, then the LS600h will do the job. Like others have stated I also think it depenends on price. I think they'll price it against the S550, in and around 100K loaded, but nothing close to the S600. That will work for 1-2K units I think, but any pricier and it won't.
M
That may be, but it sure is good looking:
M
I think because it looks a lot like it did in 1995. Perhaps because people hated the "modern" '90-94 looks, they were scared to be too daring, and they ended up doing basically a nip\tuck to a 9-year-old car.
Look at the S550 vs. the 500, or the 750i vs the 740i. The German designers said black is white, up is down, we're going to change everything and set the bar for state-of-the-art, both inside and out. Jag went to all the trouble of making a brand new platform, which happens about once a century at Jaguar, and then put a fresh coat of paint on the old body, and sent it out the door. New Jag:
Old Jag:
"I dont know if they exist in Europe but a diesel Mini sounds real tempting to me."
Yeah, they exist. May be they will cross the ocean some day.
Jose
If the car's trunk space comes in similar to an IS / 3-series / C-Class...which is what I predict...we'll see how many of those 5 buddies' minds get changed, even if the price comes in at the low end of what you posit. For myself, accustomed to SUV-type cargo space (we have been a 2-SUV, zero-sedan family since 2000) I have a serious problem with the trunk space issue.
I do think the car will sell in numbers greater than any of the V12 Germans, though. Possibly greater than all of them added together.
Yeah I think so too, especially if they price it at 100K or less, when a S600 is 40K more and the 760Li almost 20K more.
What are the specs for the LS460's trunk space?
M
Haven't seen anything released yet. If the GS is anything to go by, 5 cu ft will be lost with the LS600 vs LS460.
Your assumption being that the hybrid LS will sell at significantly lower prices than V12 German cars.
It is far too early for us to debate hybrid LS sales results when there are no official hybrid LS sales results to debate about .
But what is debatable is the potential success of luxury hybrids.
IMO hybrids and luxury mix as well as oil and water. The reason I say this is because luxury has to be exclusive and rare. A LS seat massager and electronic parking assistance are exclusive features not offered in current Toyota models. In the future these Lexus luxuries will trickle down to more humble Toyota models.
Hybrid technology trickles in the opposite direction. Hybrid technology trickles first from lower humble models like the Prius and ends up later in expensive models like the hybrid LS.
Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years? The 2009 Prius will make the hybrid LS appear as obsolete as a 386 PC.
Luxury hybrids will be a disappointment until new hybrid technolologies are first introduced in HELM models.
However, for the long-term standings, as with any car, it loses steam. And with this being a specialty car, it will lose it even faster. With the Europeans undoubtly focusing on diesel-hybrid technology and with some diesels(ie: Bluetec and TDI) on the market now that offers remarkably better gas mileage and about the same smoothness without the hybrids gripes(ie: trunk space and unknown longevity for exp.-altho pre-'04 Priuses are still running strong) is some indication that the LS has it work cut out for it.
And it doesn't have nuch of a calling card except for the L on it's nose. Not much in power(430 is not a lot in light of 500/600-hp MB's. Projected fuel economy ratings not impressive. Some technology, altho not breakthrough(I do think is the first AWD sedan hybrid, tho.)
But it has one trump card that Lexus has played since '89: PRICE. With a projected start around $95k, it shouldn't be a tuff sell at all.......
I will trade in my BMW 530xi Touring for a 535D any day.I hope a 535D will exist on our shores.
link title
If that is the case then the GS450H would sell like hotcakes. The GS450H is not exactly a hot seller despite having no competition.
Hmmmm..... Let's look at the LS 600hL's calling card"s"... notice the plural...
1) 8-speed dual-mode CVT (World-first)
2) 40Gb HD (world-first)
3) 19-speaker ML
4) Body-sensing temp control
5) LED Hi/Lo beams (world-first)
6) Best V12-like output with highest MPG money can buy
7) AWD/HSD/LWB (world-first)
8) Leather-stitched dash
I guess the above are more than just the "L" on its hood, don't ya think ?
June Month 420 versus 616 -31.8%
June YTD 2,144 versus 2,935 -27.0%
Unfortunately Lexus does not breakdown the sales further. But interestingly look at how the sales have declined even though 05 sales excludes 450h sales.
Look at the combined sales number of 420 in June . How many of those are hybrids? 100 or 200? Not very impressive IMO.
Maybe GS hybrid sales are not so high because of supply issues?
Not very likely! There have been no stories in the media about long waiting lists for the GS hyrbid (unlike all those stories about the waiting lists for the the RX400H during its first months of sales).
The Next Prius will not influence the sales of the Lexus LS600h. I don't even wanna know where you came up with that!
If anything, it'll just reinforce the future of their hybrid LS, and give them something to look forward to when the technology "trickles up"! Hybrid LS owners might just pick up a new 100-MPG Prius for the 17-year old A-student in the family, no?
GS 430/450h Sales
June Month 420 616 -31.8%
June YTD 2,144 2,935 -27.0%
You could do the same breakdown for V8 E-Class/A6/5-series, and get similar numbers, so this is no indictment on the GS430/GS450h.
Given the size of the LS' customer base, it's virtually unparalled rep, the great pub, I expect 1000 PRE-ORDERS, and up to 3000 sold in it's first 12 months, if it's price is at or below $100k.
8-Speed dual-mode CVT(It can't be both/ either full auto or CVT)- Not exactly astonishing as Nissan/Infiniti and Audi will be going full CVT/DSG(Audi) on next gen cars.
40gb HD- big deal- soon to be as common as an MP3 player
19 speaker ML- Will it finally cure the distortion?- I'll take my renowned B&O with "only" 18 speakers instead.
Body-sensing temp control- read up on this one- it takes 28 minutes for the system to become fully operative- in this recent 100 degree heatwave, you've been dead by the time it read all of your thousands of pores.
LED Hi/Lo beams: A great addition to illumination, may have been better if the tuners weren't doing it already.
Best V12-like output with highest MPG money can buy: This is the biggest whopper yet- The MBZ S550 gets to 60 in 5.1 secs, while the much more powerful and lighter 760i Sport V12 takes 5.5, despite having an extra 4 cylinders. Best V12 performance? In this class, the only V12's that are worth noting in the performance brackets would be both versions of the MB V12(natural and force-fed). Oh and yeah it gets 39% better mileage than the BMW also. And maybe they took a page out of Maserati's marketing script as they promised the Q-P would have the power of a Ferrari V12 with the minimal servicing of a V8. HMM not so as it is slower than the current LS and S to 60.
AWD/HSD/LWB: As I stated in post, I gave credit for this one
Leather-stitched dash: You left yourself wide-open on this one. I just had to double back to my garage to see if my W-12 still had it's leather on the door sill, dash, center console, map pockets, A-frame posts, steering wheel, lower dash, ultra suede liner, and everything in between.
The L? Maybe another attempt of carbon copy maybe, a la not styling this time round...........
The same thing for the RX. Now the RX350 is more powerful and much closer to it in efficiency, so why by a complicated Hybrid when you could have a regular one for $6800 bucks less that is faster with less weight?
It was definitely strange on Lexus' part to introduce the RX350 while at the same time still offering the 400h with the old 3.3L engine. Honda did the same thing with the Accord, they boosted the horsepower on the standard V6 this year, so its now basically just as fast as the Hybrid version, and like the 400h, there's absolutely no reason to buy the hybrid.
My guess is absolutely nothing. 100mpg only saves 1 gallon every 100 miles over 50mpg (the currrent Prius). In a 15k mile year, that's only 150 gallons, or roughly $450, about 1 month's worth of bank interest on $100k. You can save half that money just by writing the purchase check on a bank that resides on the other coast so that it will take up to two weeks to clear that money out of your interest-bearing account.
On V12 "performance", there is yet no public info or rumor on how the 600hL will perform, rather, I was refering to the MPG for a V12-like motor in the 600. See, you were quick to talk HP/straightline acceleration... I wasn't saying anything of sorts...
Your W-12 is certainly a really nice car... The 600hL will be a competitor and should stack up pretty well, don't you think ? Besides, with 430HP (as in the W12), 8-cogs/CVT, AWD, LED, etc... the higher priced W12 may find itself scrambling to match up... As they say, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Another 9 months from now and the 600hL will be here, and we'll see how it stacks up to its competition.
Mr. Unknown,
we will have to wait until we know the hybrid LS price before we can carry on a debate about such sales projections.
I disagree. Maybe it is best that we discuss this in a hybrid forum?
When you say "performance" and V12 in the same sentence on this board, Merc and I instantly assume you mean acceleration, rev range. But I can honestly see where the input for gas mileage would be deemed necessary, and yes, the projected 20/26(22 combined per Lexus) is quite an acheivement for such a heavy car(predicted to weigh more than 350 pounds more than the current LS, hybrid-600 pound more).But thanks to ingenious engine engineering and the 8 speed tranny, it is able to acheive such lofty numbers.
And yes, I think my W12 is a fantastic and rare(in the States) car. And for 450hp(not your 430), it is very good on gas(18 combined in 4600 pound car in NY traffic- awesome)
So to reply to you, yes the forthcoming LS has many proposed strengths. It will definetely take the LS' sales up yet another notch in a attempt to retain Lexus' "best selling premium line" in the US. They must be doing something right.....
BTW: They are predicted to do a more credible attempt in Europe. We may be talking a different talk 7/07.....
This is by far and away the smartest thing Toyota has done since killing the Echo.
Ford, once a real threat to the world auto market, posted a 123mil. loss for the 2nd quarter. The company says it is due to the lack of demand for it's redesigned SUV's(ie: Explorer and Mountaineer), fledgling demand for the Escape Hybrid, cooling demand for the Mustang(sooooo many anticipating the Camaro return), a cooled demand for it's underwhelming Lincoln/Mercury brand, despite some new and redesigned fresh models. And reverting to all FWD models won't help as the Americans have warmed back up to the idea of RWD/AWD and wagons(nobody believes the FWD traction is better story any longer). And with the F-Series sales starting to slide: Detroit, we have a PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!
And DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!!!!!!!.......... Fiat wants to return to the States by '08 M/Y. Geeeeee, thanx GM for the down payment on shipping from Italy(2 bill goes a long way).
Ford definitely has troubles. GM seems like they are starting to figure out how to manage Pontiac\Buick\Saturn, but Ford is still completely clueless about Mercury and Lincoln, and they seem to think that badge engineering is still viable in the 21st century automarket. Think again.
I also think that Chrysler, the perennial boom\bust automaker, is headed for another bust. The twinkle on the 300 is fading, and what else do they have? Chrysler has been avoiding reality by shoving cars down dealer's throats, and is now stuck trying to get rid of them with massive discounts. Not good. I also predict that the Chrysler Aspen will be a flop, just like the Commander. The Explorer\Trailblazer\Durango market is going to shrivel and die soon, and only GM seems to be aware of it.
This is one of the funniest comments I've ever read. So let's see if I've got this right - Toyota is going to make it's most premium car obsolete with a car that costs 30% or less of its price and one that's in a class about a dozen stories lower. It won't be doing anything to improve the LS600HL with that same technology - no, all their development is Prius bound in order to exterminate the LS600HL. No sharing of technology, no improvement, none of that normal stuff that makes Toyota the machine it is. That's not going to happen here. The 600HL is only being created to standstill and be overcome by a much cheaper sibling. It must have been a naughty boy to get such punishment from it's parent.
Dewey - please wake up and smell the roses and while you're at it tell us what's going to happen to the LS600HL from it's internal intercompany competition.
So, by your logic, when DaimlerChrysler brings high-MPG Smart cars to the USA, will Bluetec diesel MBs appear as obsolete as a 386 PC? Or maybe a 286?
Finally, GM has stopped lining there pockets with unnecessary amounts of profit and put the money back into the company. The pending Buick Enclave and other GM crossovers are unbelieveably, well, GM. First off, the Enclave will actually one-up the RX, as the laughable Rendezvous was only capable of selling to strickly blue hairs w/o RX budget. The GMC and Saturn versions are just as good. And Gm has vowed to install it's 3.6L high-feature 280hp V6 standard, no need for V8. Pontiac is going all RWD, even the G6 replacement will be so equipped. No need for a Sunfire-type car with Solstice selling as fast as they can make them(at last check, it was outselling Mini, Tiburon, TC, and MX-5 2-1 each, respectively).
And Cadillac. Finally America's luxury car will come full-circle. The long-awaited DTS replacement will be RWD and will finally compete with the foreign makes legitmately. And the new CTS with a new 3.6L with VVT on intake/exhaust and 300hp(and the 400hp CTS-v and 505hp CTS-SuperV(with the Vette Z06's LS7) is sure to relight it's extinguishing flame with the onslaught of new comp such as 330i, '07 G35, '07 A4, and reworked TL.
Ford on the other hand, well: The Crossovers that they are hoping to compete with the GM triplets are not going to cut the cake. Even with the new Duratec pushing 250-hp, judging from the previews that have been shown, nothing impressive, especially with the Lincoln and Ford versions being styled by the same one-eyed, hump-backed pencil scripter who designed the shroon Rendezvous. The Mazda version however, very interesting, especially being equipped with the MAZDASPEED 6 turbo 4. Killing the super-old but super-dependable Crown/Marq/TC with no replacement is an automatic death sentence with the few faithful that are left. They'll definetely be shopping Caddy and Lexus harder now as the upcoming MKZ is not going to cut it, even being on the superb Volvo S80 chassis.
Chrysler, you're right, the sizzle is fading with LX's. Thankfully Chrysler has sensed this and will roll out the LY cars in '09 M/Y, featuring MB's great Airmatic suspension and for the first time(not counting the 3.2L in the Crossfire), MB engines. The top 300 is said to get the 5.5L in the E550, with the 4.5L as an option. Until then, the 300 and Magnum are due for facelift late '07 early '08, altho the cars are still selling vey briskly. Then Chrysler has joined the flex-fuel crowd on it's 4.7L V8 engines. The HEMI's MDS system must really work as the orders for 5.7L trucks, SUV's and cars surged 67% YTD, especially the Ram pickup and Jeep vehicles. GOOD NEWS: The Crossfire is said to be replaced with the awesome FIREPOWER! concept of a couple years ago. Hopefully so.
You see the domestics are on a roll, well sort of with the exception of Ford............
M
The annual projected sales of the GS450 is 2000 units (or the max number Lexus could bring to NA), so 100-200 a month is probably right on target.
IMO this car is more of a niche vehicle than the RX400h, so the demand is not as huge as the latter.
Facts can be funnier than fiction in terms of hybrid technology, especially in the case of the 07/08 LS600HL.
Based on expectations the upcoming Prius will be radically different from the current one. So radically changed that a nickel carbide battery powered non-plugin hybrid 07/08 LS will look like a joke in comparison to a lithhium ion battery powered plug-in 09 Prius.
2) It won't be doing anything to improve the LS600HL with that same technology
Yes the 09 hybrid LS will likely be improved. But the 07/08 LS hybrid will end up looking as relevant as a Dodo bird (at least a good looking bird with Bangle curves and edges).
The technological showcase car for Toyota is not any Lexus. It is a humble Prius. Is it mere coincidence that the new LS electronic parking feature has already been offered in the Prius for three years now (at least in Japan)? I dont think so!
Is it mere coincidence that many wealthy technology geeks choose to buy a Prius? I dont think so!
3)please wake up and smell the roses and while you're at it tell us what's going to happen to the LS600HL from it's internal intercompany competition.
The scent of the roses here are quite poignant where I am sitting. No and I repeat no again the Prius does not compete with any Lexus (hybrid or non-hyrbid). But a radically new hybrid Prius or a Honda may have a averse affect on resale values of older hybrids (especially luxury hyrbids)
Nope!
That does not apply to Blutec diesels . Diesel technologies have gradually evolved for over a hundred years . THis is not the case with hybrid technology! Hybrid technology is a disruptive technology that involves high obsolesence as time moves on.
Blutec Smart Cars will not be sold for many years before a Blutec S Class Benz will be introduced. While the hybrid LS is based on the technology of a Prius three years ago.
Big difference IMO.
Well said... Comparing an econobox Prius to an LS is as ridiculous as it gets... Hey, my 25mpg Matrix gets better mileage than my 18mpg LS400, so my LS must be obsolete...
Moving on... Will the 460L be compared to the S550 or will it be the 600hL ? Price-wise, maybe the latter, class-wise the former. Boy, am I looking forward to a head-to-head comparo of the S550 v LS460L, or what ?
I'd love to see Merc1's face.. ehr... words... when the LS bests the new S. Hah !!! I hope Lexus brings the sport pack for the new LS series and puts these against the new S. All this talk of performance and handling would disappear, I suppose. Who knows, maybe BlkHemi would consider a loaded 460L at a bargain than the new S. Or maybe he'd just buy the GT over the SL...
And my friend, that why it's best to never say never. With a company as grand as Toyota backing whatever move you want to make, Lexus has the opportunity to deliver the total package...
I just couldn't light up and tag at the same time.
Sorry.
DrFill
Make a bunch of black (or white) t-shirts, and they would say things like:
"Ask me about the Next LS!" or
"Got Hybrid?" or
"Can your luxury car do this?" or
"I got your 60MPG right here!"
Triple-stamped it, no backsies!! :P
DrFill
1)how'd you like to set up a concession stand and make a business for the group of people (I'm guessing the count will be zero, maybe one person if I really stretch my imagination) that will exit the 2008 LS600HL line and enter the 2009 Prius line. Just don't expect any bank to loan you the money to start a business where no one will line up
Are you trying to imply that I stated 08 hybrid LS owners will trade in their cars for a 09 Prius? If that is the case then it appears you have misunderstood my posts.
And whether you do understand my posts or not is of no real importance to me. :P
Seriously tho', are you still in line for the 460L or are you going for the 600hL ? I don't suppose anyone buying a 600hL is gonna worry about the trunk space. Who needs a trunk when you own a $100K car ? If you need to ferry goods and people, buy a minivan or SUV. When you need to ride in comfort, serenity and plushness, buy an S, LS, Audi, Jag, etc... That's the way I see it...
We'll see what happens. I can see the LS460L taking some comparos due to its huge projected price advantage, but the mags aren't going to compare the LS600h to the S600 due to the fear of the Lexus getting its lugnuts handed to it.
M
Yes the 09 hybrid LS will likely be improved. But the 07/08 LS hybrid will end up looking as relevant as a Dodo bird
The technological showcase car for Toyota is not any Lexus. It is a humble Prius.
I don’t see what’s so hard to grasp. With regard to hybrid, you can’t separate Toyota products completely. Hybrid tech is a common element. In no way did Dewey suggest people will be bailing on an LS for a Prius.
No and I repeat no again the Prius does not compete with any Lexus
What also is misunderstood here is the significance of Prius to high-end hybrid cars. People with environmental consciousness and social responsibility see irony and hypocrisy in buying anything other than that which offers the absolute best in terms of environmental friendliness. Global warming issues are snowballing. Prius is on the leading edge of that action, not high-end cars.
As such, Prius has a lot more significance than just another “econobox”. If people see Lexus products trailing that leading edge because the tech isn’t current, then said products become Syquest cartridges.
It is easier and more efficient for Toyota to throw its efforts into Prius and have Lexus ride the coattails of the technology. But this timing could have a negative effect on the high end products. For one thing, batteries that are more powerful and less massive render everything that preceded it obsolete.
You know how they say no athlete is bigger than the game? Well, at this early stage in the hybrid epoch, no car is bigger than the technology.
About new posters, anyone looking for discussions about any of the vehicles named in the header will have this one as a choice.
Maybe this is a good time to revisit what vehicle are listed there? We can add two to the existing list, or add and subtract if we have a consensus on change.