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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Let's just say I completely disagree with you. A Lexus buyer has no interest in a Prius. The Prius attracted many higher end buyers at the beginning because it was the only noteworthy hybrid to the green crowd. So the Google guys and many others were attracted to it. But now that the highend segment is getting into the act they will quickly vacate the Prius and go to the power and lux hybrid segment. If your beliefs are right, that the Prius is important to the high end segment, then it is not only the LS that it will hurt but many other power lux cars as well. I can't even begin to see that happening. The lux hybrids will give you that power with a clear conscience and lux buyers want the features, comfort and roominess of a high end sedan not an economy car. Different segment, different buyer, different priorities. The Prius bridged them temporarily because of its uniqueness. That temporary period is ending.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's get this conversation back the high end vehicles and take further across-the-spectrum hybrid debates to the Hybrid Vehicles board.

    Please and thank you. :-)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    At this price point, this one qualifies for our topic. Whatcha think? Tesla Roadster: Lotus Helps Create Sporty 135 MPG Electric Car

    An Electric Car With Juice: Silicon Valley Firm Bets Its Chips on the Speedy Tesla Roadster (washingtonpost.com - free registration required)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The conversation about this has been interesting over the last few days.

    Now we're to believe that the Lexus buyer has nothing to do with a mere Toyota anymore, even though the Toyota product started the whole hybrid craze. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of a Lexus fan with furthing Lexus branding on their minds, not the reality of how all this got started.

    Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also? Could have sworn there was.

    One minute Toyota (not Lexus) is set to take over the world with Hybrids, with the Prius leading the charge, but now they're not. So I guess it is Lexus' turn to do the same with limited production hybrids that so far (GS450h) have proven to be nothing more than an afterthought. Something is amiss here.

    I don't see how anyone could think that a Lexus buyer doesn't have any ties or interest whatsoever in Toyota on the subject of hybrids when hybrid technology trickled up from Toyota to Lexus products. You don't think that a Lexus buyer knows that Toyota is the reason for Lexus having hybrids in the first place?

    That said I don't think that the LS600h will flop because of a Prius, but once the 09's Prius does come out (and if it really does have all this Buck Rogers technology) the Lexus will seem a little less relevant to some. I think that is what Dewey is trying to say, mildly.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Pat: I do agree with Designman as its been a circuitous route for me as well. Even more strange is that when I click on "Read New Posts" on the HELM board, it takes me to the LS Futures Board. Huh ! Something is amiss with the new system, and I'd hope someone upstairs is reading this and helping posters make the forum more user-friendly to everyone.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I can see the LS460L taking some comparos due to its huge projected price advantage,..

    You can say that again... According to this post on the LS 460 board, its reality.

    vantage2, "2007 Lexus LS" #2201, 22 Jul 2006 12:23 pm

    Imagine an LS460 with all those new style and features starting in the E500/550i range ???? That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think ?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Imagine an LS460 with all those new style and features starting in the E500/550i range ???? That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think ?

    Of course the LS will cause some sales to be lost from MB and all the other players in the segment, but a huge dent, not! The current LS always started in E-Class territory and it didn't make a huge dent in S-Class sales either. Price like anything else is but one component here and when you add "all those features" the LS460 won't be in E/5 territory. Seems like to me you're still on that sky is falling/end of MB nonsense. Now I wonder if the point about price making some difference in sales will be realized when a SWB LS460 will start in E-Class/5-Series land while the S-Class as it stands right now goes out the door for about 90K.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Dent in S-class sales is NOT the same as "sky is falling/end of MB" as YOU stated it, cos nowhere in my post would you find such silly assertion. And starting in E/5 territory for a new style, with Yes, "all those features" would make the new LS series a much vaunted challenger to anything from Germany in its class. You may say "same ol' same ol" with pricing, but this is a new S vs a new LS - the battle royale, so to speak. And if and when the LS beats the new S, I can hear it already... it's all about the cheaper LS !
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No one said anything about Lexus being isolated from Toyota. The point is that the LS is isolated from the Prius. It's also isolated from the Corolla. I can't believe people are making that type of connection. The Prius is owned by someone who owns an LS - as a second car not as a replacement car. Come on people let's get serious here. If a person buys a C-class as a second car does the C suddenly becomes a threat to that person buying as S in the future??
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    First Ting: Why would ANYONE price a new Lexus, or any launched car, $60,596?

    And my #2: I'd park it right under the 750i, at around $67k, for openers!

    Then, if you wanted a test drive, I'd make you ask extra nice, with sugar on top! :blush:

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think?"

    A sizeble scratch, yes, but a dent?? I think that intially the LS will steal some sales from the S, but then when MB introduce to our shores the S450, there will be some variance and some of the losses are due to return.

    This has been said every since the '92 S. Lexus sales slid with big and bold S. But with the '95 redo, they returned, once again in '98 with the refresh. But when MB dropped the stunning '00 in '99, that stole the show for everyone. '01 brought some good comp for MB, especially since by that time, the W220's quality probs were evident. But the '01 didn't have the fire that the '95 and '98 had, interesting enough. And the '07 S550 has actually sold more of a percentage than the '01 LS, and is still climbing strong, with June being the strongest month behind Feb.

    But the '07 is sure to have a superior effect on the S. The redesign has been long awaited. And the LS faithful will not be dissappointed, according to Lexus. The build quality is said to best the outgoing model 10 times over...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The current LS opens at $56k, so you'd give a $10k price hike just because? Wouldn't that eliminate the value status for Lexus? I can honestly see the SWB going for 58-60k , with a fully opted SWB stopping at 70k, the LWB at your 67k, with a 80-85k break point.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You've lost the plot Oac. You can call it whatever you like a battle royal or whatever, but when you guys start touting how well the LS460 is selling and that it outsells the S-Class, you'll need to include that 25-30K price advantage somewhere in the rhetoric. That is all I'm saying.

    You can't have it both ways, one minute say the LS is priced like a E-Class or 5-Series then the next the battle is with the S-Class, lets try to get it together.

    No one is doubting that the LS is a real challenger to anything (well nearly anything) from Germany, heck even I'm impressed with the car's technical specification, if not the looks.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're missing the point/connection here, which is hybrids. Of course a C-Class has nothing to do with an S-Class buyer's habbits. There is no connection between that scenario and the Prius and the LS600h. No one is saying (or at least I'm not) that the LS600h buyer is going to drop down to a Prius as a replacement for a 100K Lexus, we all know that. The point that Dewey and Designman are trying to make is that the hybrid tech in the 2009 Prius might just make the LS600h look a little outdated to greenies who live for this type of product. IMO, it is all about perception which is a big part of hybrid's appeal since they don't appear to be the heaven sent answer to better fuel economy as some predicted. Anyone spending potentially 100K on a super-hybrid isn't going to want to find out that a Prius makes it obsolete tech wise, that is all I think they're trying to say here.

    Think of it this way regarding Mercedes, do you think S-Class buyers would feel cheated if the all-new 2008 C-Class debuted MB's hybrid tech instead of the S-Class? Of course they would and most people would be scratching their heads as to why MB would choose their least expensive car to show its most advanced tehnology. Same thing with the Prius vs. the LS600h, if and only if the next Prius does meet all those lofty engineering goals.

    Who knows what will happen in such a scenario between the next Prius and the LS600h, of course the LS600h buyer can likely just end the rigamarole and buy both! I for one don't think it will matter sales wise because the two cars are so far apart in the market, but the mental like is there because of Toyota wearing hybrids on their sleeve.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That car is cool. I want one. At twice the efficiency of the most efficient hybrid, this could be one of the cars that the privileged greenies hitchhike onto... equivalent to 125 mpg. And they claim a 0-60 of 4.0. Whe-ew! Downside is it handcuffs long-range travel plans, needing a 3.5 hour charge after 250 miles. But come to think of it, I’ve never taken my roadster on a long-range trip and neither have many others.

    They also have intentions of making a sedan. Who knows, with backing by the Google founders, Lotus handling and warm acceptance, we could see a new star in the mix—pure electric performance. I hope it’s easy to get at least a test drive out of this baby.

    I’d like to know what they know and Toyota doesn’t. This is all about batteries which are outsourced. Could it be that battery tech has made big strides in such a short time and that Toyota’s hybrid manufacturing and marketing inertia precludes them from committing to pure electric?

    Interesting stuff.

    Check out the Tesla site which is nice 'n clean and pretty cool itself:
    http://www.teslamotors.com/
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Lets overlook the obvious reasons. :confuse:

    1. The HUGE spike in power.

    2. The HUGE upgrade in looks, rivaling, if not exceeding, the vaunted S-Class.

    3. The HUGE increase in speed, appeal and efficiency brought on by an 8-speed tranny

    I just think it's time to "Move Forward". Playing the background to cars it is as good, or in most cases, better than, hurts the car's, and the marque's, prestige.

    You hear Merc throw the lower price up in EVERY, not some, but EVERY post of his!

    Lexus has hedged it's bet long enough.

    I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.

    I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.

    Correct price strategy:

    $67-83k: LS460 SWB

    $72-88k: LS460 LWB (Where S550 starts)

    $92-99k: LS600h (Limited Availability - 2000 Units for 2008)

    Lexus will win either way it goes. But you can't be prestigious and underpriced at the same time. If you think you are the best, act as if. That's my motto.

    I can't exactly find many errors in Lexus' market strategy. Just conservative, for my tastes. And I have an issue if they intend to build on 300k units of volume a year. I think it's at 328k for 2005. Need to bring that down. The amount of volume only proves that demand exceeds supply/price!

    DrFill
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The point that Dewey and Designman are trying to make is that the hybrid tech in the 2009 Prius might just make the LS600h look a little outdated to greenies who live for this type of product...

    And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not... The Prius was novel 4 years ago, now its mainstream... the 600hL is something else... And I buy that argument as well. Heck, why should a '08 600hL owner worry that an '09 Prius gets 100mpg ? Is the 600hL all about MPG ? Geez ! Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter. About the only thing remotely similar b/w a Prius and a 600hL is that they both have an electric motor, and there the comparison ends... Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Next...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    You can't have it both ways, one minute say the LS is priced like a E-Class or 5-Series then the next the battle is with the S-Class, lets try to get it together.

    And once again we have to remind you Merc1, that PRICE is but one factor ! Need we list you the features this new LS series will come with ? Not really cos you know them so well too... But more importantly, the LOWER price of the LS is bcos of efficiency of production, the HIGHER price of the S is bcos of the inefficiency of its production system. Give or take... if MB could make their S with the TPS efficiency, they'd price it right as well. Bottom line is the S is overpriced for what you get, unless you are simply buying the 3-pointed star on the hood. What's that worth today ? $20 - 30K premium over the LS ???? Guess we'll see how the S sales hold up when the new LS gets here... even with the S450 in tow and the Bluetec diesel models not that far behind...

    The days of a single LS battling a myriad of S-class models is almost over. The LS series will have more variants and SWB/LWB trims to compete against its German peers. And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Actually no. The only body-on-frame cars left that I'm aware of are the Crown Vic\Grand Marquis dinosaurs.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You know how they say no athlete is bigger than the game? Well, at this early stage in the hybrid epoch, no car is bigger than the technology.

    Designman,

    who would think that two BMW fans and evan a Mercedes fan would defend one of the blandest driving Toyotas on the roads today? ;)

    The Tesla roadster? Impressive indeed. But as mentioned in that Washington Post article :

    Why not just buy a Lotus Elise and use some of the $40,000+ you save to buy some gas?"

    And 10k more if you dont live in a select few States. Ouch!!

    Oh yes it's not all about saving gas. But if that is the case then why not just buy an Elise and donate the rest of the $40K savings to an environmentalist cause.

    I guess there will be quite a few who will buy the Tesla because it is a one of a kind sports car like no other. I cant argue with that since that is the main reason why many people buy sports cars in the first place.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Lexus has hedged it's bet long enough.

    I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.

    I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.

    119+ yrs of brand v 17 yrs of brand... that's why ! Slow and steady wins the race.. The LS price will creep up, and with the different models, you'll finally see an LS sedan priced in the mid-80K and up. That is a far-cry from the past 17 years of $72K top ceiling for the UL.

    You cannot fault Toyota/Lexus strategy. It is the stuff of legends, so gotta wait and watch as the strategy unfolds... Its scary if you stop to think of it.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not..."

    Exactly. As well, the 600HL car will be heavily leased so the risk will be on Lexus anyway which is still another reason why any Lexus buyer of the car, on top of the obvious reasons, will not give a hoot. Then on the next go round he'll take the updated battery and get 500HP with 35-40mpg at the same price as the original purchase. If you use the argument noted here than there'd be no such thing as an early adopter of technology. What the early adopter here will look at is a high HP car that is green and is loaded with phenomenal luxury and techmology vs it's real competition - a gas car that gets a gas guzzler tax and costs more - a lot more in some cases - and retains less value on resale.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also? Could have sworn there was."

    Certainly isn't me, Merc... I am not a hybrid fan yet.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Certainly isn't me, Merc... I am not a hybrid fan yet.

    Same here. Although I have to say I found the Edmunds Camry Hybrid review interesting. Unlike the utterly pointless HAH, it actually works.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Personally, I am ambivalent about the hybrid tech itself. I'd like higher MPG, but at what cost ? Maybe when HSD becomes mainstream as fossil-fuel based cars, then I'd go for one. My wife seriously considered a Prius during the first waves of higher gas prices, but now we simply have gotten used to paying more for gas...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also?

    I think that was michael_mattox. Haven't seen him here for a while.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I too am not completely sold on hybrids, but I do applaud the engineering advances that it has taken in the last decade. I am one with the diesel crowd as this has been tried and true for over 100 years(thanks Rudy). And with the forthcoming diesel-hybrid coming in the not to distant future, the gas-electric cars will have to have some other reasoning for existance. Long gone is the argument that gas cars are more refined than diesels. This has been abolished with the onslaught of new-gen diesels(both consumer and commercial).

    Take for instance MB's Bluetec. The engine is 4 db quieter than the outgoing 5.0L V-8, and at last check, that engine was resolute at 55 db at idle, 61 at a 70 mph cruise. Diesel is here to stay if it's going this rate. I can't wait for BMW's answer with the diesel-hybrid and Audi's V-12 diesel for the forthcoming A8.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    VW and Chrysler-Jeep haven't exactly set the world on fire with their diesels. Not exactly feeling the buzz on the E-Class diesel, either. :sick:

    I don't think Toyota is shaking in their boots over a diesel hitting the US market.

    Toyota seems to be the only one who can make hybrid/diesel palatable to Americans. And I'm not one to bet against them.

    DrFill
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    And I wonder why that is, drfill... Is it the price of diesel isn't attractive right now and people don't understand the mileage dynamic, or are they lousy performers when you drive 'em? Why don't diesels sell here?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I can't believe it. I have to somewhat agree with the good doc.

    Yes, if the hybrid king was to offer a diesel hybrid, then they'd prbably sell as quickly as they can make them. But:

    Diesel is what the Europeans do best. The E320 CDI has not nor was it intended to be a sales king. Notice MB does not do a whole lot of advertising for it. And that is sure to change once the Bluetec comes on full line.

    The same for the Jeep vehicles. What other trucks in it's price range/size class offers a diesel of any price? None. The next closest thing would be the VW Touareg, at 50k. And this is why DCX is sure to cash in on the high-gas-pubic with a diesel that is just as refined(if not better) as a gas engine yet returns over 30 mpg, in an SUV? And these are verified facts, unlike the Prius' and Civic' "normal average" debacle....
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I'm right!

    Leave it to you to hedge a bet on the right answer. :P

    Diesels just have a bad rep, from decades ago, for being slow, noisy, smelly, expensive to maintain, and having poor drivability.

    You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "You never get a second chance to make a first impression."

    That is true, however:

    You do get a chance to be reintroduced and reinvigorated, hence the recent surge of diesel sales in pick-up trucks to customers who actually don't need diesel power. And this is why DCX is the commercial leader: DIESEL POWER!
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Since I'm not rollin' into a Chrysler dealer to buy a Commercial diesel. Retail consumers couldn't care less about commercial diesel sales.

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    that no one here has commented on the big news that was revealed on the 2007 LS board the past couple days. Someone found out the starting price for the LS460. It will be at about $60,500. The information seems very legitimate. If this is the case (there is no reason to doubt it), then it gives us huge clues on the pricing structure of the LS460 LWB and also for the LS600h. Based on this, I cannot imagine that the cost of the LS600h will be much more than the low 90's K.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    and voiced my displeasure at the LS board earlier.

    $60,596? Pretty strange price for a world-beater! :mad:

    BTW, Lexus has confirmed, via e-mail, the 2007 GS350 will sport 303HP.

    DrFill
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The usuals around here are still shell-shocked about the news... Give them a few more months to digest this info. Besides, its not like the Germancarfans do not have enough Lexophiles to worry about :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not... The Prius was novel 4 years ago, now its mainstream... the 600hL is something else... And I buy that argument as well. Heck, why should a '08 600hL owner worry that an '09 Prius gets 100mpg ? Is the 600hL all about MPG ? Geez ! About the only thing remotely similar b/w a Prius and a 600hL is that they both have an electric motor, and there the comparison ends... Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Only to one who one minute will try to seperate Lexus from Toyota, but yet in the next sentence tell you how might Lexus is because of Toyota. You obviously don't seem to understand what a greenie buyer is. The type of person that gets excited about hybrids is likely to take notice, that is all anyone is saying here.

    In the beginning of all the hybrid ranting the Prius was such the car that celebs were buying it and now that will shift to the LS600HL, but none of this same group will notice it if the (and a very big if) the next gen Prius makes the tech in the LS600h look outdated? You guys seem to trip over (or can't remember) what was said from one minute to the next, it is hilarious.

    One minute Lexus has the almighty power of Toyota behind it and Toyota's image on Hybrids and yet now we're to believe that the LS600hl buyer is completely of another realm and wouldn't know or much less care about the Toyota hybrid that started it all, yet all these celebs bought Prius and the LS600hL (according to some Lexus fans) is a "celeb" car also. Makes sense.

    Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter.

    I've been suggesting you do hat for years when it comes to same old nonsense about Lexus and complete and utter lack of understanding about anything beyond Lexus. Heck the same thing could be said about Lexus too regarding that 8-speed CVT that doesn't exist.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And once again we have to remind you Merc1, that PRICE is but one factor ! Need we list you the features this new LS series will come with ? Not really cos you know them so well too... But more importantly, the LOWER price of the LS is bcos of efficiency of production, the HIGHER price of the S is bcos of the inefficiency of its production system. Give or take... if MB could make their S with the TPS efficiency, they'd price it right as well. Bottom line is the S is overpriced for what you get, unless you are simply buying the 3-pointed star on the hood.

    So this does prove that you do understand the concept of "price" but only when it comes to certain topics. Again talk about a non-starter, all this about why the S is priced higher is NOT IN DISPUTE. How many times does one have to say that for it sink in? Everyone knows that Toyota has a lock on lower cost production and that they're able to price Lexus vehicles lower because of it.

    Bottom line is that you think the S-Class is only bought for the star that the star is all you're getting over a Lexus you obviously don't know anyting about the car.

    And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?

    If you read your own statement you'll see part of the answer: "rock bottom prices". That has something to do with it you think?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The usuals around here are still shell-shocked about the news... Give them a few more months to digest this info.

    What in the world is there to be shell-shocked about? We all knew the LS460 would cheap out in price next to the European competition, it is Lexus' MO.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Nobody confuses MB CDI with a ride on the city bus even if both use diesel . . . Few will confuse hybrid for fuel saving vs. hybrid tuned towards performance. We already have a common engine technology that can be tuned towards either: Variable Valve timing. Honda first ues it for fuel saving, and for years the Civic HX had variable valve timing just for that. Once it was popularized for performance, somehow nobody associated VVT, VVT-i and Valvtronic with fuel-sipping specialized Civics ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I love the double-speak gloss-over in that post. How can the Prius and LS600hL both be "celeb" cars (in your words)and appeal so greatly to greenies who like Hybrid tech and one not take notice of the other? Now they're completely seperate yet some of those same rich folks who bought Priuses are going to now buy LS600s? You do realize that a lot of appeal behind hybrids is the "feel good" factor? Some of it has to be that because not all of them deliver the goods when it comes to better MPG.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    BTW, Lexus has confirmed, via e-mail, the 2007 GS350 will sport 303HP.

    Kind renders the GS430 pointless. If there is no GS460 for 2007 and Lexus thinks the GS450h is going to hold down the V8 fort they're sadly mistaken.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Kind renders the GS430 pointless. If there is no GS460 for 2007 and Lexus thinks the GS450h is going to hold down the V8 fort they're sadly mistaken.

    Yeah, I made that point quite awhile back. Assuming overall GS sales don't nosedive, they can sell roughly 6,000 V8s a year, and they simply don't have the build capacity to make that many GS450hs to step in for a retiring 430. I'm not sure what their plans are at this point.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I can't see them just giving up those sales either so there must be a GS460 in the cards for a late year debut, after the press hoopla over the LS460 subsides.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Now you are jumping on the bandwagon of Prius and 600hL bashing, eh ? Find nothing else to hate about Lexus, except compare the top of the line LS to the bottom of the pack Toyota ? A $25K car to a projected $100K car ? That must be another low... Does it occur to you who the clientele for Prius and those for an LS 600hL is ? So someone looking to buy a high-end performance and luxury sedan north of $90K (projected price) will compare the MPG of a Prius to an LS600hL ? How ridiculous is that ???? Since when are $90K cars about MPG ? I don't see an S550 ad which touts its 22MPG, or does it ?

    I will repeat it again, no one gives a hoot what the Prius is when it comes to what a 600hL brings to the table... Please find something worthwhile to complain about, and which makes some sense, and we'll debate it. This topic is a non-starter...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "In the beginning of all the hybrid ranting the Prius was such the car that celebs were buying it and now that will shift to the LS600HL, but none of this same group will notice it if the (and a very big if) the next gen Prius makes the tech in the LS600h look outdated? "

    So Merc - now all of a sudden the buyer is going to make the business connection, huh? Your argument has always been that no buyer makes that connection and only cares about the performance and lux specs of the car and its competition. But now suddenly, they'll make that connection and solely about a battery and MPG (a battery that's as yet unreleased at the time they want to buy a car and one that will probably be on the LS right after it's on the Prius anyway) and ignore everything else including 430+HP, super lux features, a LWB roomy car, a dream ride etc etc. - and it's made now because you need it in this argument. As for celebs - they will buy whatever makes the best statement they want to show about themselves. I thought you'd have known that by now. The celebs that bought the Prius are exceptions to that cars classs of buyers, not the rule, and they were probably stolen from Mercedes anyway.

    If you need to believe that I am separating Toyota from Lexus then go on believing it. No automaker realizes the synergies of its cars the way Toyota does and it's why they'll mint $14bln plus growth a year in after tax profit for a long time to come. I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent. Aren't we already seeing evidence of this with MB holding up it's S450 to see Lexus pricing??? When was the last time that happened?

    For the record and for the last time I am separating an LS lux car buyer from an econobox Prius buyer. Common sense tells me there is a difference in priorities.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - it's pretty bad when you need to make an argument to upstage the LS hybrid with a car from the same company that has a 180 degree different mission statement. That's what's hillarious to me. The celebs that were buying the MPG in the Prius to show their green will probably go on buying it, particularly if it gets 100mpg. It's their way of making a statement. What's the big deal.

    Brightness - excellent post.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent.

    The financial clout of Lexus (or should I say Toyota Motor Corporation without triggering any offence) has produced nothing in terms of threats towards the German marques.

    In all honesty do you really think that the much lower priced LS is a real threat to the MB S Class in the USA? I have news for you: The LS in the USA has never been and is unlikely to be a threat to the S Class.

    Outside the USA the LS is a mere after-thought. In Japan the LS is likely to remain irrelevant in the luxury market as it is today (even with a new "L" logo on its hood). And in Europe the LS will remain an object of indifference among luxury car buyers even with a new re-skinned LS460.

    Lexus tends to rouse a lot of excitement about their ucoming cars. I can recall the euphoric anticipation among Lexus fans for the BMW beaters called the GS and IS. Based on the specs they did look like BMW beaters. Unfortunately as soon as the Lexus rubber hits the pavement euphoria disappears real fast .

    In fact give me one single Lexus model on the roads today that is a threat to one single vehicle among the luxury Gemran marques (including Audi)? Just one?

    And please dont respond with a future redesigned Lexus model or you will set yourself up for future disappointment. :P
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    How do you define "threat"?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    It's their way of making a statement. What's the big deal.

    Interesting article Have You Hugged a Hummer Today

    Purchasing a $100K Lexus with hybrid technology my only be worth the statement itself.
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