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An Electric Car With Juice: Silicon Valley Firm Bets Its Chips on the Speedy Tesla Roadster (washingtonpost.com - free registration required)
Now we're to believe that the Lexus buyer has nothing to do with a mere Toyota anymore, even though the Toyota product started the whole hybrid craze. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of a Lexus fan with furthing Lexus branding on their minds, not the reality of how all this got started.
Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also? Could have sworn there was.
One minute Toyota (not Lexus) is set to take over the world with Hybrids, with the Prius leading the charge, but now they're not. So I guess it is Lexus' turn to do the same with limited production hybrids that so far (GS450h) have proven to be nothing more than an afterthought. Something is amiss here.
I don't see how anyone could think that a Lexus buyer doesn't have any ties or interest whatsoever in Toyota on the subject of hybrids when hybrid technology trickled up from Toyota to Lexus products. You don't think that a Lexus buyer knows that Toyota is the reason for Lexus having hybrids in the first place?
That said I don't think that the LS600h will flop because of a Prius, but once the 09's Prius does come out (and if it really does have all this Buck Rogers technology) the Lexus will seem a little less relevant to some. I think that is what Dewey is trying to say, mildly.
M
You can say that again... According to this post on the LS 460 board, its reality.
vantage2, "2007 Lexus LS" #2201, 22 Jul 2006 12:23 pm
Imagine an LS460 with all those new style and features starting in the E500/550i range ???? That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think ?
Of course the LS will cause some sales to be lost from MB and all the other players in the segment, but a huge dent, not! The current LS always started in E-Class territory and it didn't make a huge dent in S-Class sales either. Price like anything else is but one component here and when you add "all those features" the LS460 won't be in E/5 territory. Seems like to me you're still on that sky is falling/end of MB nonsense. Now I wonder if the point about price making some difference in sales will be realized when a SWB LS460 will start in E-Class/5-Series land while the S-Class as it stands right now goes out the door for about 90K.
M
And my #2: I'd park it right under the 750i, at around $67k, for openers!
Then, if you wanted a test drive, I'd make you ask extra nice, with sugar on top!
DrFill
A sizeble scratch, yes, but a dent?? I think that intially the LS will steal some sales from the S, but then when MB introduce to our shores the S450, there will be some variance and some of the losses are due to return.
This has been said every since the '92 S. Lexus sales slid with big and bold S. But with the '95 redo, they returned, once again in '98 with the refresh. But when MB dropped the stunning '00 in '99, that stole the show for everyone. '01 brought some good comp for MB, especially since by that time, the W220's quality probs were evident. But the '01 didn't have the fire that the '95 and '98 had, interesting enough. And the '07 S550 has actually sold more of a percentage than the '01 LS, and is still climbing strong, with June being the strongest month behind Feb.
But the '07 is sure to have a superior effect on the S. The redesign has been long awaited. And the LS faithful will not be dissappointed, according to Lexus. The build quality is said to best the outgoing model 10 times over...
You can't have it both ways, one minute say the LS is priced like a E-Class or 5-Series then the next the battle is with the S-Class, lets try to get it together.
No one is doubting that the LS is a real challenger to anything (well nearly anything) from Germany, heck even I'm impressed with the car's technical specification, if not the looks.
M
Think of it this way regarding Mercedes, do you think S-Class buyers would feel cheated if the all-new 2008 C-Class debuted MB's hybrid tech instead of the S-Class? Of course they would and most people would be scratching their heads as to why MB would choose their least expensive car to show its most advanced tehnology. Same thing with the Prius vs. the LS600h, if and only if the next Prius does meet all those lofty engineering goals.
Who knows what will happen in such a scenario between the next Prius and the LS600h, of course the LS600h buyer can likely just end the rigamarole and buy both! I for one don't think it will matter sales wise because the two cars are so far apart in the market, but the mental like is there because of Toyota wearing hybrids on their sleeve.
M
They also have intentions of making a sedan. Who knows, with backing by the Google founders, Lotus handling and warm acceptance, we could see a new star in the mix—pure electric performance. I hope it’s easy to get at least a test drive out of this baby.
I’d like to know what they know and Toyota doesn’t. This is all about batteries which are outsourced. Could it be that battery tech has made big strides in such a short time and that Toyota’s hybrid manufacturing and marketing inertia precludes them from committing to pure electric?
Interesting stuff.
Check out the Tesla site which is nice 'n clean and pretty cool itself:
http://www.teslamotors.com/
1. The HUGE spike in power.
2. The HUGE upgrade in looks, rivaling, if not exceeding, the vaunted S-Class.
3. The HUGE increase in speed, appeal and efficiency brought on by an 8-speed tranny
I just think it's time to "Move Forward". Playing the background to cars it is as good, or in most cases, better than, hurts the car's, and the marque's, prestige.
You hear Merc throw the lower price up in EVERY, not some, but EVERY post of his!
Lexus has hedged it's bet long enough.
I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.
I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.
Correct price strategy:
$67-83k: LS460 SWB
$72-88k: LS460 LWB (Where S550 starts)
$92-99k: LS600h (Limited Availability - 2000 Units for 2008)
Lexus will win either way it goes. But you can't be prestigious and underpriced at the same time. If you think you are the best, act as if. That's my motto.
I can't exactly find many errors in Lexus' market strategy. Just conservative, for my tastes. And I have an issue if they intend to build on 300k units of volume a year. I think it's at 328k for 2005. Need to bring that down. The amount of volume only proves that demand exceeds supply/price!
DrFill
And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not... The Prius was novel 4 years ago, now its mainstream... the 600hL is something else... And I buy that argument as well. Heck, why should a '08 600hL owner worry that an '09 Prius gets 100mpg ? Is the 600hL all about MPG ? Geez ! Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter. About the only thing remotely similar b/w a Prius and a 600hL is that they both have an electric motor, and there the comparison ends... Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...
Next...
And once again we have to remind you Merc1, that PRICE is but one factor ! Need we list you the features this new LS series will come with ? Not really cos you know them so well too... But more importantly, the LOWER price of the LS is bcos of efficiency of production, the HIGHER price of the S is bcos of the inefficiency of its production system. Give or take... if MB could make their S with the TPS efficiency, they'd price it right as well. Bottom line is the S is overpriced for what you get, unless you are simply buying the 3-pointed star on the hood. What's that worth today ? $20 - 30K premium over the LS ???? Guess we'll see how the S sales hold up when the new LS gets here... even with the S450 in tow and the Bluetec diesel models not that far behind...
The days of a single LS battling a myriad of S-class models is almost over. The LS series will have more variants and SWB/LWB trims to compete against its German peers. And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?
Actually no. The only body-on-frame cars left that I'm aware of are the Crown Vic\Grand Marquis dinosaurs.
Designman,
who would think that two BMW fans and evan a Mercedes fan would defend one of the blandest driving Toyotas on the roads today?
The Tesla roadster? Impressive indeed. But as mentioned in that Washington Post article :
Why not just buy a Lotus Elise and use some of the $40,000+ you save to buy some gas?"
And 10k more if you dont live in a select few States. Ouch!!
Oh yes it's not all about saving gas. But if that is the case then why not just buy an Elise and donate the rest of the $40K savings to an environmentalist cause.
I guess there will be quite a few who will buy the Tesla because it is a one of a kind sports car like no other. I cant argue with that since that is the main reason why many people buy sports cars in the first place.
I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.
I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.
119+ yrs of brand v 17 yrs of brand... that's why ! Slow and steady wins the race.. The LS price will creep up, and with the different models, you'll finally see an LS sedan priced in the mid-80K and up. That is a far-cry from the past 17 years of $72K top ceiling for the UL.
You cannot fault Toyota/Lexus strategy. It is the stuff of legends, so gotta wait and watch as the strategy unfolds... Its scary if you stop to think of it.
Exactly. As well, the 600HL car will be heavily leased so the risk will be on Lexus anyway which is still another reason why any Lexus buyer of the car, on top of the obvious reasons, will not give a hoot. Then on the next go round he'll take the updated battery and get 500HP with 35-40mpg at the same price as the original purchase. If you use the argument noted here than there'd be no such thing as an early adopter of technology. What the early adopter here will look at is a high HP car that is green and is loaded with phenomenal luxury and techmology vs it's real competition - a gas car that gets a gas guzzler tax and costs more - a lot more in some cases - and retains less value on resale.
Certainly isn't me, Merc... I am not a hybrid fan yet.
Same here. Although I have to say I found the Edmunds Camry Hybrid review interesting. Unlike the utterly pointless HAH, it actually works.
I think that was michael_mattox. Haven't seen him here for a while.
Take for instance MB's Bluetec. The engine is 4 db quieter than the outgoing 5.0L V-8, and at last check, that engine was resolute at 55 db at idle, 61 at a 70 mph cruise. Diesel is here to stay if it's going this rate. I can't wait for BMW's answer with the diesel-hybrid and Audi's V-12 diesel for the forthcoming A8.
I don't think Toyota is shaking in their boots over a diesel hitting the US market.
Toyota seems to be the only one who can make hybrid/diesel palatable to Americans. And I'm not one to bet against them.
DrFill
Yes, if the hybrid king was to offer a diesel hybrid, then they'd prbably sell as quickly as they can make them. But:
Diesel is what the Europeans do best. The E320 CDI has not nor was it intended to be a sales king. Notice MB does not do a whole lot of advertising for it. And that is sure to change once the Bluetec comes on full line.
The same for the Jeep vehicles. What other trucks in it's price range/size class offers a diesel of any price? None. The next closest thing would be the VW Touareg, at 50k. And this is why DCX is sure to cash in on the high-gas-pubic with a diesel that is just as refined(if not better) as a gas engine yet returns over 30 mpg, in an SUV? And these are verified facts, unlike the Prius' and Civic' "normal average" debacle....
Leave it to you to hedge a bet on the right answer. :P
Diesels just have a bad rep, from decades ago, for being slow, noisy, smelly, expensive to maintain, and having poor drivability.
You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
DrFill
That is true, however:
You do get a chance to be reintroduced and reinvigorated, hence the recent surge of diesel sales in pick-up trucks to customers who actually don't need diesel power. And this is why DCX is the commercial leader: DIESEL POWER!
DrFill
$60,596? Pretty strange price for a world-beater! :mad:
BTW, Lexus has confirmed, via e-mail, the 2007 GS350 will sport 303HP.
DrFill
Only to one who one minute will try to seperate Lexus from Toyota, but yet in the next sentence tell you how might Lexus is because of Toyota. You obviously don't seem to understand what a greenie buyer is. The type of person that gets excited about hybrids is likely to take notice, that is all anyone is saying here.
In the beginning of all the hybrid ranting the Prius was such the car that celebs were buying it and now that will shift to the LS600HL, but none of this same group will notice it if the (and a very big if) the next gen Prius makes the tech in the LS600h look outdated? You guys seem to trip over (or can't remember) what was said from one minute to the next, it is hilarious.
One minute Lexus has the almighty power of Toyota behind it and Toyota's image on Hybrids and yet now we're to believe that the LS600hl buyer is completely of another realm and wouldn't know or much less care about the Toyota hybrid that started it all, yet all these celebs bought Prius and the LS600hL (according to some Lexus fans) is a "celeb" car also. Makes sense.
Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter.
I've been suggesting you do hat for years when it comes to same old nonsense about Lexus and complete and utter lack of understanding about anything beyond Lexus. Heck the same thing could be said about Lexus too regarding that 8-speed CVT that doesn't exist.
M
So this does prove that you do understand the concept of "price" but only when it comes to certain topics. Again talk about a non-starter, all this about why the S is priced higher is NOT IN DISPUTE. How many times does one have to say that for it sink in? Everyone knows that Toyota has a lock on lower cost production and that they're able to price Lexus vehicles lower because of it.
Bottom line is that you think the S-Class is only bought for the star that the star is all you're getting over a Lexus you obviously don't know anyting about the car.
And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?
If you read your own statement you'll see part of the answer: "rock bottom prices". That has something to do with it you think?
M
What in the world is there to be shell-shocked about? We all knew the LS460 would cheap out in price next to the European competition, it is Lexus' MO.
M
M
Kind renders the GS430 pointless. If there is no GS460 for 2007 and Lexus thinks the GS450h is going to hold down the V8 fort they're sadly mistaken.
M
Yeah, I made that point quite awhile back. Assuming overall GS sales don't nosedive, they can sell roughly 6,000 V8s a year, and they simply don't have the build capacity to make that many GS450hs to step in for a retiring 430. I'm not sure what their plans are at this point.
M
I will repeat it again, no one gives a hoot what the Prius is when it comes to what a 600hL brings to the table... Please find something worthwhile to complain about, and which makes some sense, and we'll debate it. This topic is a non-starter...
So Merc - now all of a sudden the buyer is going to make the business connection, huh? Your argument has always been that no buyer makes that connection and only cares about the performance and lux specs of the car and its competition. But now suddenly, they'll make that connection and solely about a battery and MPG (a battery that's as yet unreleased at the time they want to buy a car and one that will probably be on the LS right after it's on the Prius anyway) and ignore everything else including 430+HP, super lux features, a LWB roomy car, a dream ride etc etc. - and it's made now because you need it in this argument. As for celebs - they will buy whatever makes the best statement they want to show about themselves. I thought you'd have known that by now. The celebs that bought the Prius are exceptions to that cars classs of buyers, not the rule, and they were probably stolen from Mercedes anyway.
If you need to believe that I am separating Toyota from Lexus then go on believing it. No automaker realizes the synergies of its cars the way Toyota does and it's why they'll mint $14bln plus growth a year in after tax profit for a long time to come. I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent. Aren't we already seeing evidence of this with MB holding up it's S450 to see Lexus pricing??? When was the last time that happened?
For the record and for the last time I am separating an LS lux car buyer from an econobox Prius buyer. Common sense tells me there is a difference in priorities.
Brightness - excellent post.
The financial clout of Lexus (or should I say Toyota Motor Corporation without triggering any offence) has produced nothing in terms of threats towards the German marques.
In all honesty do you really think that the much lower priced LS is a real threat to the MB S Class in the USA? I have news for you: The LS in the USA has never been and is unlikely to be a threat to the S Class.
Outside the USA the LS is a mere after-thought. In Japan the LS is likely to remain irrelevant in the luxury market as it is today (even with a new "L" logo on its hood). And in Europe the LS will remain an object of indifference among luxury car buyers even with a new re-skinned LS460.
Lexus tends to rouse a lot of excitement about their ucoming cars. I can recall the euphoric anticipation among Lexus fans for the BMW beaters called the GS and IS. Based on the specs they did look like BMW beaters. Unfortunately as soon as the Lexus rubber hits the pavement euphoria disappears real fast .
In fact give me one single Lexus model on the roads today that is a threat to one single vehicle among the luxury Gemran marques (including Audi)? Just one?
And please dont respond with a future redesigned Lexus model or you will set yourself up for future disappointment. :P
Interesting article Have You Hugged a Hummer Today
Purchasing a $100K Lexus with hybrid technology my only be worth the statement itself.