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Comments
You've got to be kidding me.
But since you like to make comments that are out in left field then Dewey I'd think if you're the CEO of MB or DCX, you'd have no fear of Lexus. Ok that's your point and if you believe it that's fine. I certainly wouldn't feel that way if I'm running MB or anyone else and I can't imagine many business people who would. It's that attitude that has caused the Germans a lot of problems in the first place anyway.
When a model faces potential extinction due to persistent negative sales growth (i.e. Jaguar X-type).
Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance. Will TMC remain humble after being number one? Unlikely, very unlikely!
Threat as defined for this topic is best described as a fear of losing sales.
So enough with the semantics. Let's get back to my initial question about anyone here having proof that MB should feel threatened by the LS?
This LS threat towards the S Class seems to be a recurring theme here , dont you think?
Also there is this recurring theme here on how much Lexus accomplished in such a short time with hardly any heritage in luxury to fall back on. (unlike MB).
Well BMW's heritage in luxury is not exactly a century old. In fact it is not much older than the heritage of Lexus.
So let me say something that has not been said here in this forum:
It is amazing at how much BMW accompished in such a short time with hardly any luxury heritage to begin with .
If the LS gains (which I recognize you might not agree with) further market share (normalized for where each Lexus and competing model is in it's life cycle), wouldn't some of those sales be coming from the S?
Isn't the LS a threat to the S? And vice versa?
Has anyone on this board said the S faces potential extinction because of the LS?
Oac came close when he used the term "scary".
Face it. Lexican rhetoric throughout the years has suggested that the extinction of German cars is their dream.
It's automotive genocide. We need to bring the UN in on these talks and lay some sanctions on the Lexicans. It's the only way we will get them to acquiesce.
To me this is not a very smart statement. In other words, you actually believe that the MB S Class sales would not be any higher than they are today if the LS was not available here in the U.S. To put it another way, the LS is totally irrelevant in S Class sales. Is that right? If this is what you believe then you also must believe that Miami will have a white Christmas within the next couple Christmases.
ofcourse the LS stole some sales from the S Class. Of course they compete.
But which models in the past 17 years were most affected by the LS? I think the most affected models were from Lincoln, Cadillac Jaguar and let us not forget Chrysler's Imperial. Do you honestly think most LS buyers would have bought an S Class instead? I dont think so.
Also the S Class lost a lot of sales these past 17 years to the BMW 7 Series and Audi A8 . The 7 series was not taken seriously by Benz until the late 80s.
In otherwords an increase of one Lexus sale does not mean a decrease in one S Class sale. That kind of math just does not work.
I think most lexicans/germancarfans delight in seeing their favorite brand succeed in the marketplace, meaning gain market share vs its competitors. But most rational lexicans/germancarfans wouldn't want a competing brand to actually go extinct. Competition is good for everyone, in pushing companies to innovate, and in keeping prices from getting out of hand.
You're kidding yourself. Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler Imperial lost out to imports generally, not Lexus specifically. And I do think that when someone buys an LS, he was most likely cross-shopping a German import, not an American or British marque.
The new LS and all of it's iterations are sure to breathe new air for the entire model line. But this talk about it canning S-Class sales has gotta stop. Someone mentioned that the LS went from zero to number one in it's class. Yes that is true, but only MB has the gall to sell on 6 continents, likewise with Audi/BMW. Try Europe, Austrailia, even do a better job in it's homeland Asia, and then it shall be worthy a entrance into the world elite. This is not to say the LS isn't worth it's sales as I think we all agree there, but can't be THEE car. Cheap pricing can only get you so far.
And we all agree that the intitial LS460 will be a magnificent success, but a complete wash? Hardly. Trust me, MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace....
" MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace...."
I don't disagree with that at all. But another way of saying it is the more optionality you allow the more you have to charge. The further removed from a syndicated product you are the more your costs go up. It's really a business model and mission statement issue. No matter what though the 80/20 rule applies and is more like a 90/10 rule in reality as 80%+ of the sales will still come from 10-20% of the product offering. So in my book if you are buying the syndicayted S-classs you are paying a toll for the varied offerings that MB makes. It's the way business works. If you're a customized shop you've got to get the syndicated buyers to pay most of the freight.
I'm sorry. Is it Lexus' job to "threaten" German marques? That would lead one to believe that the German marques (including Audi) are controlling the market somehow.
I don't see that being the case. If anything, the Germans are reacting to Lexus just as much, if not more so, than the other way around.
Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance.
Is that a vailed GM reference, or a vailed Mercedes reference? You wouldn't make such a complimentary Lexus reference. :P
And I HOPE Europe doesn't give a whit about the Lexus LS. That only proves their secondary status in the automotive market.
After what Tiger and someguy with one hip did this weekend, does Europe have any credibility vs. the US at this point? We tell them what's important, what gets done, and how it gets done, not the other way around.
Thank You
DrFill
Pretty much the same place BMW sales came from!
A full 1/3 of BMW sales come from the 3-series.
The 3-series is a great car! It is not roomy, but it has everything else. Good-looking, fun, versatile, fast, feature-laden, damn near hypnotic to drive, it's even easy to park! And word-of-mouth takes it the rest of the way!
It offers a combination other cars can't in it's class.
The Lexus RX300/330/350 works in the same mysterious way. It accounts for 1/3 of Lexus sales, and this will not change.
It is powerful, roomy, elegant, luxurious, versatile, and reeks of quality! And good news travels just as fast.
The 3-series and the RX have one thing in common.
They are so good, you can't walk away from them. They are the benchmarks.
Lexus has the ES, LS, and RX with built in customer bases. The rest of the lineup falls in around them, until further notice.
Lexus vehicles aren't the prettiest, or the most fun, but they eliminate the screw ups MORE COMMON in high-end German and American-engineered cars and SUVs. That's all!
Lexus eliminates the "Bitter Beer Face" you may've seen elsewhere.
This loyal following has been cultivated over the past 17 years, and BMW has taken a similar path, offering a sporting, yet versatile (4-door), driving experience uncommon in the luxury car market.
It's not that Lexus will kill Mercedes. It's just that they are the closest competitor as far as "Mission Statement".
They are trying to do the same thing, but both have very different ways of doing it. And they are starting from different areas of the landscape/timeline.
Lexus is building a can't lose proposition for themselves.
Either they continue to absorb the lower-end of the luxury market, and scream value, or increase their appeal and prestige and move upmarket.
I'd like Team Europe to stand up and say a S550 is $25k better than a LS460L.
Come on, all together now......
Ok, is it $10k better? $5k?
Having stood next to both vehicles at the same time, I don't see how the LS will be a lesser vehicle, dynamically. The only difference is the LS has never been an $80k-90k vehicle, while the S has been for awhile.
Lexus can change that paradigm, if they so choose. I'd like to see them push the prestige envelope. But they'd rather not mess with the Golden Goose. Can you blame them?
The LS460 can do it, but Lexus/Toyota won't risk it, and the GS hasn't shown it can stand the $50k ground, so it would cause a chasm Lexus doesn't need.
I think I've run out of analysis. Maybe....
DrFill
Interesting !!!! LS needs a low price as its saving grace ? This is a new one. How many times are we going to repeat ourselves when it comes to pricing. TPS is an efficient system, so efficient that Lexus/Toyota can produce their cars at lower costs relative to the over-priced German labor market. Do you not see how labor costs, supplier costs, and production efficiency play significant roles in car pricing ? Excuse moi.... I am not gonna overpay for a German car when a comparable version from Japan is cheaper and more durable (read: reliable). And since I don't live in my car, the few times I need to drive it, I enjoy driving regardless if its in luxury or sport mode...
And let's see what the answer to DrFill's question is: Is the S550 $5/10/25K better than an LS460 ? Just look at the feature lists of both cars, and stack them side-by-side and tell us if the S is that much better, or its simply overpriced... which it is...
They sure do. Only to add a face that screams: My parent company still after 17 years doesn't have any distinction whatsoever, including there still conservative and staid L-Finesse.
BTW: Every car company generates sales in the lower spectrum of the models, so you don't have an arguement after me.
And for the extra $$$ the S commands, asked the extra 29% of takers(mtd) that that bought the car with an average mean of $92k if it was worth it?
I hear you, Len... Like I said, its all about Lexus-bashing.... Buying a Prius is now so mainstream, a status the 600hL will hardly ever meet (sales-wise and mainstream-wise). The latter is strictly a low production high-end luxury atuomobile, not a gazillion production econobox like Prius. At $25K, that's as affordable as most cars in its class. And with hybrids all over the car/SUV landscape, the Prius no longer stands out. Maybe with a 100mpg ! But there is the electric car at 125mpg. Why wait till MY '09 for a 100mpg Prius, when there is a current 125mpg electric car ??? I suppose this 125mpg car would now threaten the 25mpg 600hL as well.... Simply ridiculous line of argument from Dewey and Merc1 !!!
And how do you know how TMC would act when (not if) they become #1 ? When Lexus became the #1 luxury nameplate in America, did Lexus/Toyota act arrogantly ? And talking of arrogance, which company CEO's have shown the most arrogance to their competition ? That would be those of BMW and MB towards Lexus' upward move in the luxury segment. We'll see who will eat their arrogant words...
Take Jag for instance. The base price of a XJ8 is only 3k more than a LS430. With England's often labor-protected factories and abbriviated work weeks(not by choice), the company miraculously keeps the price of the car down, despite having one of the strongest chassis/frames in the biz. So this argurement is seperating at the seams.
As for the S' standard list roster over the LS, the S makes the LS look like the just-above-average bloated Camry it is. The S offers more safery equipment, technology, power, creature comforts, and a better overall design than any LS. True, with a $25k price difference, it should.
And yes, the German labor market is so shrouded with unions it's a wonder anything is built there. But the arguement here is cheaper labor equated cheaper priced cars. Then why does a ES350 cost more fully loaded(51k) than a 330(46k)? A GS V8($63k)v. 550i($61.5) I know the ES is not built in Japan, and that is why the labor arguement is a weak one.
Japanese cars have always undercut their American and European counterparts in pricing as that was the only way of existance. Reliability was still widely unknown(And you did throw in the R word for the unteenth time, new material please...) In the '80's , when they arrived with full force, Acura, then Lexus, then Infiniti often undercut the comp. by up to 10-20k dollars. See, nothing has changed.
Just face it. If the LS moved into S-Class price territory, the very existance of the LS would halt immediately as the 3-pointed star carried much weight over the golden(plated) L. And Lexus knows this. If the car was so good, why not price it head-up with it's competition. What's the excuse this time Lexicans.... They're wearing thin, very thin........
Arrogance? That only begins to descibe the attitude that Lexus has towards the Europeans, altho now it's to offer a true "Euro-Spec" suspension? You've gotta lov'em.
BTW: Hopefully Lexus won't hide this one out.
I think you answered it yourself in your preceding sentence:
If the LS moved into S-Class price territory, the very existance of the LS would halt immediately as the 3-pointed star carried much weight over the golden(plated) L. And Lexus knows this.
Translation: The 3-pointed star has greater prestige than the "L", so if the LS were exactly equal to the S in every way except prestige, it would not be able to command the same lofty prices.
Then you say: And yes, the German labor market is so shrouded with unions it's a wonder anything is built there..
Can't have it both ways... Truth is the German labor laws and costs are far HIGHER than comparable workers in Japan. So labor costs, supplier costs and production system... 3 things, not one... three factoids.. why not counter ALL three points ?
Then why does a ES350 cost more fully loaded(51k) than a 330(46k)? A GS V8($63k)v. 550i($61.5) I know the ES is not built in Japan, and that is why the labor arguement is a weak one.
Are we reaching or what ? An ES350 versus a 330i ? Since when do ES buyers say to the Lex dealer: "see, for that ES price I can get a comparable 330i far cheaper" ? Need I say more ??? Why not try an IS350 v 330i price comparison ? As for the GS/5 comparison, yes, the GS has grown up and have moved upmarket in price, maybe the Bimmer has remained stale in price due to fear of losing market share, eh ?
Finally, this is a really good one. You stated that:If the car was so good, why not price it head-up with it's competition. What's the excuse this time Lexicans.... They're wearing thin, very thin....
Excuse ? Maybe its the Germans that believe their price points should be the benchmarks. Maybe Lexus thinks otherwise. That you can produce and sell a world-class luxury sedan, with ALL the features Germany can put together, and better integrated to boot, for a price WAY below the Germans can dare to price it. If MB could price lower, and sell more, would they not ? Afterall, their profit margin is NOT any more higher just bcos their cars are priced higher. Lexus makes MORE money per car than MB does, despite the higher prices of the latter. Those gadzillion MB variants cost lots of Euros/$$$ to build, and some people gotta pay for them...
Seeing the color "rose":
S550
LS460
In your opinion of course - and that's one bad opinion. You guys don't get it - the more you post like that the more it is obvious that Lexus, and the LS in particular is under your skin and bothers the hell out of you. It causes total irritionality in your posts. Just look at the ones from the German crowd today from the Prius to the Camry LS. They are downright comical.
Japanese cars have always undercut their American and European counterparts in pricing as that was the only way of existance. Reliability was still widely unknown(And you did throw in the R word for the unteenth time, new material please...) In the '80's , when they arrived with full force, Acura, then Lexus, then Infiniti often undercut the comp. by up to 10-20k dollars. See, nothing has changed"
I hope you realize that you just wrote two contradicting paragraphs there. This is what I mean about getting emotional (and irrational) about Lexus.
Because it's blocked by.......
"My Humps, My Humps, My Humps, My Humps....
My lovely lady lumps!
Check it out!" :shades:
DrFill
Nope I'm not I just see what the original poster was saying. If you had read my post to LJ you'd see where I said that this will likely have no effect on LS600's sales or anything. My take on what the original posters of this theory was that greenies might take not of this, nothing more. We all know that a buyer of a 100K isn't going to opt out for a Prius for their main car. Never stated that, but of course you're going the harp on the extreme without reading anything previously stated.
Since when are $90K cars about MPG ?
Uh...duh when it is hybrid. Isn't one of the reasons for buying this LS600HL conserve fuel while getting comparable performance to a BMW or Audi V12? Again you don't know what your fav brand's mission with this car.
I don't see an S550 ad which touts its 22MPG, or does it ?
Why would it? It isn't a hybrid?
I will repeat it again, no one gives a hoot what the Prius is when it comes to what a 600hL brings to the table...
And that doesn't make it so either. Again, you seem not to know what the original poster's point was about the hybrid technology being shared or view across the brands, and unless you know what every LS600 buyer is buying one for you have know way of knowing anything about why they buy a LS600 or what their take is on the whole hybrid thing.
M
NO, it isn't a business connection. Do you know anyone that drives a hybrid? People who generall like hybrids keep up with these type of developments across whatever the brands may be. This has nothing to do with "business" it has to with folks who get a kick out hybrids. If all these celebs and rich folks would buy a Prius because of its greenie appeal they're going to buy a LS600hL for the same reasons aren't they? You don't think this group will notice that when the next Prius (the car that you and other Lexicans touted as being popular with "celebs") comes out with superior technology they won't take notice? Again, like I said to OAC, no one here (or at least not me) is saying that LS600 buyers are going to jump ship or turn their cars in for a Prius, but they'll take note of the technology and some might, and I say might feel that their car is no longer cutting edge or has the best hybrid technology that Toyota has to offer, thats all.
As for celebs - they will buy whatever makes the best statement they want to show about themselves. I thought you'd have known that by now. The celebs that bought the Prius are exceptions to that cars classs of buyers, not the rule, and they were probably stolen from Mercedes anyway.
When in doubt, bring up Mercedes. Prius customers were probably stolen from Mercedes. Now does this suggest that someone driving a Benz got rid of it to drive a Prius? A totally different type of car from a totally unrelated brand, yet you don't think anyone who is Toyota fanatic and greenie hybrid lover won't take notice of the next Prius because they're some snooty LS600 buyer yet both products are made by Toyota. That is so beyond ridiculous LJ. Then again the more I think about it, the Prius probably did take some MB/BMW/Porsche/Ferrari/Cadillac/Aston-Martin/Bentley buyers because each one of those are far more "in" with celebs to begin with than drab-dullard Lexus is.
If you need to believe that I am separating Toyota from Lexus then go on believing it. No automaker realizes the synergies of its cars the way Toyota does and it's why they'll mint $14bln plus growth a year in after tax profit for a long time to come. I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent.
Yawn Time to change the record. Heard it all before as the standard (largely irrelevant to most topics we discuss here) defense to any criticism about Toyota or Lexus.
Aren't we already seeing evidence of this with MB holding up it's S450 to see Lexus pricing??? When was the last time that happened?
Well officially there is nothing on this, and no S450 has been announced yet, but yeah that is my theory as to why there is no S450 yet in the U.S. market, but it isn't like there is one in Europe or anywhere else yet either. I'm trying to figure out what any of this has to do with hybrids? Oh I got it, it is the usual in closing Toyota/Lexus superiority rant.
You'll go for any mere (negative) speculation or theory about Mercedes, but couldn't possibly entertain the notion of Toyota/Lexus being anything other than perfect in everything they build, sell and market.
M
That is a good question! How many times are we going to hear this about TPS and why an S-Class costs more than a LS? For the jillionith time, no Germancarfan here is saying that this isn't the case, but a buyer couldn't care less about any of this. All they see is the sticker price. The bottom line is that the LS has been cheaper than all of its European rivals, especially Mercedes which typcially is the priciest of the entries in the segment. That cheaper price, regardless as to how it came to be, is a factor in the LS430 and previous LS models selling so well compared to much pricier German iron.
Right here on this very board you've touted how the LS460 is starting at E-Class/5-Series prices, yet you'll tout that the LS is likely to become the best selling car in it's "class" when the average price for one isn't really even in the same "class" as the car it mostly competes with! Nothing in the entire bag of Lexus rhetoric could be more hypocritical, two-faced, fallacious, specious and downright disingenuous. It runs the gamut.
M
Wait a minute! So the Prius might "stand out" if they come up with one that can get 100 MPG and you still think this won't catch the eye of the astute buyer of that LS600HL which shares hybrid technology with the Prius? Amazing because according to LJ the Lexus LS buyer is likely the smartest buyer in all of carland, yet when their LS600HL's tech is made to look yesteryear they won't even take notice. Makes sense to me.
All that about sales and what not is something you brought into this. No one here is saying that Pruis is going to have any bearing on Lexus LS600 sales or that people shopping for a LS600 will suddenly not buy one because of the Prius, only that they will take notice of it and that some of them might feel that Lexus should have had the latest and greatest hybrid tech first. Nothing major like you and LJ have trumped it up to be in you guys typical over the top, Toyota/Lexus is superior defense of anything criticism of Lexus/Toyota.
M
Exactly, but in the opposite, but for Lexus fans it isn't any particular Mercedes, it is the company itself. There is no other group of fans that constantly have to mention their competitor when one their favorite brand releases a new car. The MB envy is so obvious and the implied (wish) promise of Lexus taking MB's spot keeps the fire going for Lexicans. It is always the same old tired line about what Mercedes "must do" or what MB is going to "have to do" capped off with the usual gloom and doom for MB speech.
M
Animal House was on over the weekend. That scene where Belushi stuffs his mouth with mashed potatos and pops the zit was hilarious.
FOOD FIGHT!!!
I am hoping that since Belmont is late October, we'll be able to drive the LS460 vs the competition. And no, I don't expect it to be more of a "driver's car" than the 7 or S.
Isn't one of the reasons for buying this LS600HL conserve fuel while getting comparable performance to a BMW or Audi V12? Again you don't know what your fav brand's mission with this car.
Yes, at projected 25MPG, that's less than 30% better fuel efficiency than an LS460. So come again with the "conserve fuel" thingy !!! And why do you tell me I don't know what Lexus brand mission is ? Care to educate me since you know it so well... Sheesh...
Why would it? It isn't a hybrid?
So in your world, only hybrids tout their MPG ratings ? Haven't seen many car ads lately ???
...and unless you know what every LS600 buyer is buying one for you have know way of knowing anything about why they buy a LS600 or what their take is on the whole hybrid thing.
and you do know what every Prius owner/greenie thinks as well, and how this will impact LS600hL perception by these greenies, eh ??? You should feed yourself with the same medicine you dole out to others...
So you are saying that MB prices are HIGHER bcos of the issues I listed here ? And buyers couldn't care less even when they end up paying for these overpriced automobiles ? Hmmmm.... Let's read more on the rants....
That cheaper price, regardless as to how it came to be, is a factor in the LS430 and previous LS models selling so well compared to much pricier German iron.
Like I said earlier, if MB could make their cars cheaper, and price it less, would they sell more or less cars ? And here is the kicker, MB's lofty price does NOT equate higher profit margin ! Conversely, Lexus makes more profit on their products than MB does despite their lower prices... Go figure !!! Its all business, Merc1... all business. Price is a HUGE part of the equation, and MB's lofty prices are justified with those huge HPs and elegant designs... Plus, of course, the brand name is still worth something to buyers.
And here is the closer:
Right here on this very board you've touted how the LS460 is starting at E-Class/5-Series prices, yet you'll tout that the LS is likely to become the best selling car in it's "class" when the average price for one isn't really even in the same "class" as the car it mostly competes with! Nothing in the entire bag of Lexus rhetoric could be more hypocritical, two-faced, fallacious, specious and downright disingenuous. It runs the gamut.
"Disingenious", "specious", "fallacious", "two-faced", "hypocritical", .... wow !!! All that in one sentence ??? Didn't realise how some Germancarfans are so emotional ! Phew !!! Emotional outbursts aside, here are facts... the S-class prices are HIGH bcos their costs (to produce these cars) are HIGH... And the LS prices are LOWER for the same reasons in reverse. Tack on brand name uplift, FWIW... Got that ? What part of this fits all the adjectives and invectives you just spewed above ?
So the LS starts where the E/5/GS ends (don't forget the GS430/E500/550i are all at around $60K list), but has MORE features than the S-class brings to the party ... And it will appear that the new LS series of cars will continue to kick the S-class in sales, and will dominate the NA full-size luxury market for years to come. And their is nothing MB or BMW can do about that. You do know why, of course...
I already explained in a prior that I did not mean extinction.
High prices for the S Class reflects many things. Higher optionality is definitely one reason. And high German labor costs and relative inefficiencies are among the other reasons.
But the most important reason for the high price of an S Class is strong demand among auto buyers who strongly desire to own this Benz more than any other car in this segment of this market.
They are so good, you can't walk away from them. They are the benchmarks
Oh c'mon DrFill tell me you are not serious?
The RX and the 3 series have nothing in common whatsoever. The 3 series is definitely a benchmark vehicle. The RX350 is definitely not a benchmark vehicle in any sense of the word. The RX350 is a good seller but that does not qualify it as a benchmark vehicle.
If the parent of Lexus is proven guilty in the following case:
Earlier this month, police said they were sending papers to prosecutors on three Toyota officials in a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years.
SOURCE: link title
Then I would definitely call Toyota arrogant. Any auto company that builds its reputation on quality and is accused of the above is not only arrogant but also hypocritical and criminally negligent!
Arrogance bred in an organizationa can also cause a top Toyota executive to chase a female employee around a hotel room without worrying about the consequences(fortunately this happened in USA and not in Japan)
And moreover, the LS is a cheaper produced car, and this makes it better than any car in it's class? Yes cheaper at the expense of a flaccid suspension, wood so shiny you could see the food between your teeth, the most supportive seats in the class, the dreaded gated shifter(only a smidge better than the J-Gate), oh, and styling? Dare I say, underwhelming to say the very least. These are things that don't make for a very appealing car to a broad spectrum.
Hopefully these things that Lexus has corrected, but in Toyota fashion, highly unlikely..
Absolutely striking in its ugliness- the worst-looking tail-lights ever designed, IMO.
Makes the Bangle 5 lights look like a Michelangelo design in comparison.
I hope the new LS looks better than the Camry from the rear.
What the heck were they thinking?
More Lexus bashing.... So I take it that the higher priced A8/7/S550 are better than the lower priced LS ? And to a broad spectrum of buyers ? OK... Got it...
Hopefully these things that Lexus has corrected, but in Toyota fashion, highly unlikely..
I could bash Audi all I like, but for what purpose ? The car is what it is.. a low seller here in the NA market. Conversely, despite ALL these dishing of the LS, the car remains a TOP seller here. Bash all you like... The new LS rolls in soon... and then the fun begins
Absolutely striking in its ugliness- the worst-looking tail-lights ever designed, IMO.
The new Camry at least looks like something. The old car was as exciting to look at as a concrete block. I've seen a few of them on the road, and I don't think they are bad looking at all, though the SE definitely has a much better grille than the rest. They look much better from the back than the restyled Accord, which I think looks absolutely awful.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Camry I saw was the LE 4. True. They tried adding some pizazz. But I feel the rear is not at all convincing.
I expect the back of the new LS will resemble the Camry a bit but will look much, much better.
The new Avalon looks quite handsome from the rear, IMO.
Lexus is saving the best design for last with the LS, I expect.
Come to think of it, how did that Camry 4 even get through my neighborhood gate?
Have to speak to the guard.