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Comments
OMG, how could anyone not see that arrogance all these years ? Thanks Dewey for pointing that out to us. Of course those who point one finger at another, find that the other 4 are pointing their way.... MB/BMW execs must be epitomes of automobile modesty...
"Striking in its ugliness"... "worst looking tail-lights ever designed"... And this is coming from an owner of a Bangled 5-series ?
2007 Camry (rear)
2007 LS460 (rear)
2007 550i (rear)
The only car/truck/suv more bought, stripped, and dissected by it's "Competition" than the Lexus RX is the 3-series, and I'm probably wrong on that!
Buick Rundesvouz, Mercedes ML350, Kia Sorento, Saturn Outlook, Chevy Equinox, et al, are all beneficiaries of Lexus DNA, albeit by artificial insemenation.
The RX is clearly the best premium SUv on Earth, and apparently everyone but you has gotten the memo.
GM, Acura, Mercedes, and especially Audi have serious wet dreams about building an RX300. Or RX330. Or RX350.
They have a dream.
DrFill
At least the American part of it!
Can lightning strike twice in the same place?
Damm, too late.
But, then again, I guess it would be hard for you to re-dominate a market you already dominate, huh?
That would be re-dundant. :confuse:
I've even heard Merc compliment the Camry for it's stylishiousness!
Score another one for Team Lexus! Woo-Hoo! :shades:
There is good news for the rest of the automakers.
It's not like Lexus LS/Toyota Camry can pass you again.
Maybe they'll check their rear view mirror.
For nostalgic purposes.
DrFill
I can never pick between them. :confuse:
DrFill
(I said most, not all.)
You know there is no comparison.
The people have spoken with their pocket books making the Bangle 5 series the overwhelming LPS of choice.
You can think it's ugly. Obviously tens of thousands of people with taste, don't.
The Camry rear looks like something I would expect to see in a comic strip.
Just looking at that top photo gives me the creeps.
I beg you in the name of humanity, please delete that top photo! :lemon:
Leave the photo of the LS. That looks nice.
Looking forward to seeing it up close.
The 5-series is just about as ugly and bland as a car can get. Looks like the old Kia Rio from the back. There is only one new BMW that actually looks tasteful and that is the BMW 3-series. Oh, and the Z4.
Everybody's different.
If the 5 is so ugly and bland as you profess, why are so many people buying or leasing it?
Human nature being what it is, people would be embarrassed to drive a vehicle perceived as ugly and bland.
So why is the beautiful GS on the verge of extinction?
Talk all you want. I will lull myself to sleep with those fabulous sales numbers.
Good question... Howard. Now lets use your exact point here: Do you realise the Camry is the #1 selling mid-size car in America ? So going by your argument for the 5-series (see above) is the Camry as ugly as you claim it to be if that many people love it that much ? Seems to me that some Germancarfans will trip over themselves just to bash Lex/Toyota that they'd even make conflicting arguments...
Oh, I will get you those pics of the 5-series you asked for, but would you be happy to stare at them ???
As requested...
ES350 (rear side profile)
LS460 (rear side profile)
2006 550i (rear side profile)
2007 Camry (rear side profile)
And a Camry XLE
Yes there is no comparison, the CAMRY is a far better styled car than a Bangled 5-series.... And if sales is a good judge, as you opined for the Bimmer 5, then the Camry is much loved (beloved, really) by hundred of thousands of Americans as the car is flying off dealer lots in record numbers, just as DrFill pointed out.
Well you don't seem to have a clue as to what it is yourself. Now you're wording that "30 percent" as though it is no big deal yet when this car hits the market you'll be doing all the cheering about how good its MPG numbers are and how it duplicated some German's V12s in performance.
What is the point of spending so much money on a hybrid if not to at least to get better MPG while in Lexus' case to also get better performance? If the aim was just to duplicate BMW/Audi (not a prayer of duplicating MB V12 performance) then why not just build a V12 like everyone else? Explain to me why the LS600h L is a hybrid not just another big-engined top of the line sedan like the 760Li or A8L W12?
So in your world, only hybrids tout their MPG ratings ? Haven't seen many car ads lately ???
See again, another example of a twist. Of course hybrids are about their MPG numbers, that is their main function in most cases. Those ads you're talking about are for regular cars, not high-end cars so that leave Lexus out of the MPG hard-sell ads you see on TV right now.
and you do know what every Prius owner/greenie thinks as well, and how this will impact LS600hL perception by these greenies, eh ???
Nope, of course not just like you don't know if the opposite will happen. I made that point about 2 pages ago.
M
Of course they are. Who here ever said that MB's cars weren't priced higher in part due to inherent problems with building a car in Germany? I mean seriously have you not been paying attention to the dialogue all this time?
And buyers couldn't care less even when they end up paying for these overpriced automobiles ? Hmmmm.... Let's read more on the rants....
Obviously not if they're buying these "overpriced" MB products. For one people don't "end up" paying for anything. You walk in or browse the car of your choice on the net and you either buy or you don't. I seriously doubt many buyers in this segment "end up" buying something they don't feel is worth the money. Now they may feel like that down the road, but that can happen with any car.
When it is going to sink in here that buyers couldn't care less as to WHY a car is priced the way it is, or what a particular company's production structure is like? All they care about is the end result, that being in this case the MSRP (and what they can get off of it).
Like I said earlier, if MB could make their cars cheaper, and price it less, would they sell more or less cars ? And here is the kicker, MB's lofty price does NOT equate higher profit margin !
Again, what does all this business nonsense have to do with anything else being talked about here? Where has anyone speaking up about Germancars ever said that the above statement isn't true? Where? Of course MB would like to dramatically lower cost, price it a little less and make a bigger profit, that is common sense. Why you think this is relevant to the average buyer who knows little (or cares) or anything about what it takes to produce a car is beyond me. I guess anytime anyone says anything negative about Toyota or Lexus this about their costs, profits, production techniques is the standard response no matter what is being talked about. So tired that knee-jerk response is!
Conversely, Lexus makes more profit on their products than MB does despite their lower prices... Go figure !!! Its all business, Merc1... all business.
Yeah sure that must by why MB can't sell a car because buyers are tuned into this nonsense. NOT! A car is for a lot of folks (not Lexus buyers obviously) somewhat of an emotional purchase and it is anything but "all business" all the time, otherwise buyers would only buy Toyotas and Hondas. Such utter nonsense OAC. I guess Lexus die-hards can't grasp anything about the cars themselves beyond why it costs what it does, that it is cheaper than the primary competition, how many ++s can be added to features others have brought to the market before it, and lastly what the profits are on the money they're spending to buy a Lexus. It all sounds so sad.
BTW, I'm still waiting to hear about this 8-speed CVT that the LS is supposed to have.
Price is a HUGE part of the equation, and MB's lofty prices are justified with those huge HPs and elegant designs... Plus, of course, the brand name is still worth something to buyers.
Sure it is, and it has a direct impact on sales, but why a car is priced they way it is and all that other jive nonsense is irrelevant to most buyers.
German car brands in this country on are on the rise all at the same time for the first time in years, every one of them from VW,Audi,BMW,MB, and Porsche are up this year and that obliterates this bunk about buyers caring about why a car is priced the way it is. Do you really think if buyers knew (or cared) about how much trouble is it to produce a car in Germany they'd really want to buy one?
All this about a buyer caring about why a car is priced the way it is falls under the same catergory as a buyer caring about what a CEO says or company's profit statements. Toyota/Lexus fantics are the only ones in the whole world who believe that. Honda, Porsche, BMW and others that make money also and they don't have nearly the same one-track group of supporters when it comes to all this irrelvancy about corporate matters.
"Disingenious", "specious", "fallacious", "two-faced", "hypocritical", .... wow !!! All that in one sentence ??? Didn't realise how some Germancarfans are so emotional ! Phew !!! Emotional outbursts aside, here are facts... the S-class prices are HIGH bcos their costs (to produce these cars) are HIGH... And the LS prices are LOWER for the same reasons in reverse. Tack on brand name uplift, FWIW... Got that ? What part of this fits all the adjectives and invectives you just spewed above ?
See how you didn't address anything with this? The point was that you made the claim that the LS460's price will start in 5-Series/E-Class space and then you say the LS will be the best selling car in its class. That is the specious part because it is priced way below the "class" based on those numbers. You didn't even touch on THAT with the above response, only the same old tired (and irrelevant to the conversation) reasons about why the S-Class is priced higher. I guess when you can't address the subject at hand the standard Lexus line of defense has to be used. You didn't touch the sales part of it at all!
So the LS starts where the E/5/GS ends (don't forget the GS430/E500/550i are all at around $60K list), but has MORE features than the S-class brings to the party
Your point is? The LS does not have more features either. It appeals to those who count having more speakers and more gears as having "more features", generally the uninformed about "real" features. Lexus has become what some here have accused Mercedes of being, "about numbers". If MB has a 7-speed tranny, Lexus does 8 and if a MB has a hard-drive with XXXX if storage Lexus has one with XXXXX this much. The reason I say this is because when MB brought these things to the table FIRST it was matterless, but because Lexus took the idea from MB and added to it, we're supposed to be in awe. Not. Lexus innovates only in the minds of those who don't know what innovation is, well except for hybrids. On hybrids they lead head and shoulders for sure.
... And it will appear that the new LS series of cars will continue to kick the S-class in sales, and will dominate the NA full-size luxury market for years to come. And their is nothing MB or BMW can do about that. You do know why, of course...
Yeah when a LS starts at the price of a E-Class or 5-Series why shouldn't it outsell at car that goes for about 90K at the moment. There aren't any cheapo lease deals on the S-Class either at the moment so you can't go there. On the LS board I see where some think the average price of a SWB LS460 will be 67K, not even close to the 86K where the S550 starts. Even the LS460L is pegged (per your 07 LS board) at 75-82K, close to the base of a S550, but not equal.
M
There is that wording again! Yes I agree, the SE Camry can actually make you wonder what it is before you see that snout!
M
M
I see no envy from Land Rover, Porsche, Infiniti, VW or BMW when it comes to the Lexus RX and none of them even consider it to be anything more than what it is, a tall fwd wagon. Yes, MB did switch the program (frame/construction) around with the ML for the 2nd generation, I'll give you that, but the ML is easily more capable at being a SUV. The RX is nothing more than the ultimate posermobile.
The RX isn't even a real SUV, it can't go off road past a wet gravel parking lot!
M
The car may be flying off the lots now as a brand new model, but let's see how the sales are going after the first 6-9 months of introduction.
I predict that the styling is controversial enough to bring more people Hyundai's way.
I look for the Hyundai Sonata to overtake the Camry as the number one selling car in the USA by the end of 2007.
Now Ma and Pa Jones who drive a 2007 Camry look like they belong in the Blondie comic strip. They better drive real fast to avoid having to listen to being ridiculed by their neighbors.
Whereas people who drive the Bangle 5 are admired and watched breathtakingly as they aerodynamically glide by to their next significant destination.
When I saw the new Camry, my second reaction was that Toyota just opened the door for Hyundai to surpass them in this country. The first reaction, of course was uncontrollable laughter.
Well, just whom did Toyota copy (rather ludicrously) the new Camry's tail lights from?
Gimmee a B... Gimmee an M...!
It's always the same with Toyota/Lexus design. They can't come up with anything original on their own, so they steal-first from MB and now from BMW.
The Bangle tail lights have now been immortalized in the Camry, Avalon and LS.
You might as well get used to them.
I had not driven any of these vehicles before, so to me it was a back to back comparison experience. If I were to determine a benchmark among these cars, it would be the RX350. Other drivers may not have come to the same conclusion; it was my personal choice.
So who is the final authority on benchmarks? Individual values and personal preferences differ and I would not presume to answer for every one; I don't believe it's engraved in stone.
Well, let's see-they do both have 4 wheels.
No offense taken.
First of all we should be chiding people, especially those in prominent positions, for abuse of language such as pronouncing the word “nuclear” as nu-kye-ler, not people in the creative writing environment known as HELMs.
There was a time as you should recall when Dewey was Davey Crockett defending the Alamo, making the argument of German-car reliability against Japanese cars or something to that effect. It was only fitting that Lexicans storm the Alamo not Lexians. In this context I believe the metaphor and alliteration rule. “Lexican” is now part of the lexicon in Edmunds forums. Accordingly, it would probably be sanctioned by Webster’s because of common usage, as is the nuke-ye-lar pronunciation.
Lexians? Lexans? Na-a-h (shakes head). Forcing the issue would be pedantic. Lexicans. It’s another color in the box of crayons. It works.
Luv it. I have a lot of family in Texas and will have to lay that on them. And I’ll have to tell a real estate agent that I’m looking for a Georgican Colonial.
Anyone remember the East Side Kids with Terence Aloysius 'Slip' Mahoney? Was probbly a Noo Yawkan ting.
Mercedes got their design by copying the Ford Granada in 1975.
BMW got their styling by copying the Terraplane.
Lexus got their (so called) styling by copying, not the current, not the recent, but the FORMER, W-140 Mercedes S class.....
There, that settles it.
I will send a photo of the rear of the new Camry to the publisher of the comic strip, Blondie.
I believe in sharing the laughter.
I wrote that I was considering the Camry SE as a possible second vehicle, based solely on reviews that I read, until I actually saw one.
Now all bets are off on that.
I do however like the rear of the new Avalon-Toyota/Lexus' best-looking sedan to date, IMO. The tail lights are done much better than the Camry's.
It is quite possible that the rear of the new LS may look even better than the Avalon's.
I recall him making some sort of favorable comment like that but don’t remember him saying he saw it in person. It’s quite clear to me that he needs to see the vehicle live. Proof is how he keeps referring to the styling of the new LS in the future tense as if the photos are not speaking to him. Many people get a handle on looks by seeing photos but others don’t, they need to view it in the flesh... we hear this often from many others.
You leave him alone. Sonny boy knows what he’s talking about.
(Heh heh... the ol’ crow ain’t bad, at that.)
;-)
In the flesh, I found it bold, aggressive and daringly original.
Hey, my wife looks much better in person than in her photos. So arrest me!
The photos of the Camry looked okay.
Very disappointed after seeing the car.
If they wanted to copy Bangle, don't make it a grotesque distortion.
If it's supposed to be a string of polo ponies, don't take it and make it a string of poloponies.
That's all I'm sayin'. Geesh!
link title
Even if we're talking about the latest entry into the HELM echelon, the Camry! :P
Who here ever said that MB's cars weren't priced higher in part due to inherent problems with building a car in Germany? I mean seriously have you not been paying attention to the dialogue all this time?
No..sorry
Obviously not if they're buying these "overpriced" MB products. For one people don't "end up" paying for anything. You walk in or browse the car of your choice on the net and you either buy or you don't. I seriously doubt many buyers in this segment "end up" buying something they don't feel is worth the money. Now they may feel like that down the road, but that can happen with any car.
OK...
When it is going to sink in here that buyers couldn't care less as to WHY a car is priced the way it is, or what a particular company's production structure is like? All they care about is the end result, that being in this case the MSRP (and what they can get off of it).
Still waiting for that light switch to go ON...
Again, what does all this business nonsense have to do with anything else being talked about here? Where has anyone speaking up about Germancars ever said that the above statement isn't true? Where? Of course MB would like to dramatically lower cost, price it a little less and make a bigger profit, that is common sense...
Really ? Good to know...
German car brands in this country on are on the rise all at the same time for the first time in years, every one of them from VW,Audi,BMW,MB, and Porsche are up this year and that obliterates this bunk about buyers caring about why a car is priced the way it is. Do you really think if buyers knew (or cared) about how much trouble is it to produce a car in Germany they'd really want to buy one?
You are telling me...
Yeah sure that must by why MB can't sell a car because buyers are tuned into this nonsense. NOT! A car is for a lot of folks (not Lexus buyers obviously) somewhat of an emotional purchase and it is anything but "all business" all the time, otherwise buyers would only buy Toyotas and Hondas. Such utter nonsense OAC. I guess Lexus die-hards can't grasp anything about the cars themselves beyond why it costs what it does, that it is cheaper than the primary competition, how many ++s can be added to features others have brought to the market before it, and lastly what the profits are on the money they're spending to buy a Lexus. It all sounds so sad.
Yes, very sad indeed !!!
BTW, I'm still waiting to hear about this 8-speed CVT that the LS is supposed to have.
Me too...
...but why a car is priced they way it is and all that other jive nonsense is irrelevant to most buyers.
OK
All this about a buyer caring about why a car is priced the way it is falls under the same catergory as a buyer caring about what a CEO says or company's profit statements. Toyota/Lexus fantics are the only ones in the whole world who believe that. Honda, Porsche, BMW and others that make money also and they don't have nearly the same one-track group of supporters when it comes to all this irrelvancy about corporate matters.
I wonder as well.. Have u been talking to Dewey lately ?
See how you didn't address anything with this? The point was that you made the claim that the LS460's price will start in 5-Series/E-Class space and then you say the LS will be the best selling car in its class. That is the specious part because it is priced way below the "class" based on those numbers.
Its my failing old eyes to blame...
Your point is? The LS does not have more features either. It appeals to those who count having more speakers and more gears as having "more features", generally the uninformed about "real" features. Lexus has become what some here have accused Mercedes of being, "about numbers". If MB has a 7-speed tranny, Lexus does 8 and if a MB has a hard-drive with XXXX if storage Lexus has one with XXXXX this much. The reason I say this is because when MB brought these things to the table FIRST it was matterless, but because Lexus took the idea from MB and added to it, we're supposed to be in awe. Not. Lexus innovates only in the minds of those who don't know what innovation is, well except for hybrids. On hybrids they lead head and shoulders for sure.
Sigh...
Yeah when a LS starts at the price of a E-Class or 5-Series why shouldn't it outsell at car that goes for about 90K at the moment. There aren't any cheapo lease deals on the S-Class either at the moment so you can't go there. On the LS board I see where some think the average price of a SWB LS460 will be 67K, not even close to the 86K where the S550 starts. Even the LS460L is pegged (per your 07 LS board) at 75-82K, close to the base of a S550, but not equal.
Got it... Thanks for the lecture. Can I go now ?
I look for the Hyundai Sonata to overtake the Camry as the number one selling car in the USA by the end of 2007.
You've got to be kidding. There's a chance, if Honda really nails the design of the all new Accord, that it could take the lead back from Toyota. Its been many years since Accord was #1, but it has happened. Hyundai though? No.
People literally do not end up _buying_ MB's nowadays. They lease! With C230 lease at $329/mo, literally lower than loaded Accords and Camries, why would anyone _buy_ C class? They lease.
Same deal with BMW, Audi and VW. They are all engaged in heavy-duty lease subsidies. It may have something to do with European Central Bank current interest rate being 2.75% vs. US Federal Reserve's 5.25%. The German carmakers may be able to arbitrarge by borrowing Euro and lending Dollar, assuming the dollar does not drop relative to Euro in the future. That is not guaranteed. In any case, due to the heavy lease subsidies, the MSRP, or even nominal "acquisition price" in a lease, is not the real market clearing price. The Germans are playing the same old game that GM was known for: over-priced MSRP, heavy discount and enormous lease/finance incentives. Porsche actually has some new products, especially significant due to the tiny size base to begin with.
Hyundais have been getting good reviews.
Remember the '69 Mets.
The lease price was just the cherry on the cake in favor of the 545.
I had some issues with the GS 430-grabby brakes and that cursed adaptive, artificial-feeling steering.
The GS 300 had good brakes and steering, but I wanted the power of an 8.
If I liked the GS 430 more than the 545, I would have gladly paided $30 more a month.
The car does have a while to go to catch up with previous gen Camry's lofty 400k units, but anything is possible in this business.
It has been noted several times by Team Lexusknowseverything that somehow the Euro-car fans are somehow jealous of a car that is just now becoming full-circle, in that I mean delivering what every car in it's class delivers: The balance of performance(complain about ride-biasing all you may), luxury, and comfort. So in a sense, the LS is late to the party.
Yes it does have the ultra-plush suspension and tons of creature comforts, but it doesn't offer the total package that it's competitors does, including the XJ8.
I for one hope that Lexus has gotten it together this time round, but as previously posted, highly doubtful.
Take the Camry. The car had a soggy suspension components since the '80s(despite all of the laughable SE monikers), yet it did not get a decent suspension until 2007? And Toyota's about evolution and and innovation? Same for Lexus. Yes they're number 1(due on the most part of the older-set favs ES and LS), but being number 1 does not equate to being the best. GM, number one in the world(for now-altho it's been that way for 75 years), does that make them a better producer than Toyota? DCX? Audi/VW AG? Porsche? BMW? Even Jag? Absolutely not. Not a one of them with the current product(save for Vette/XLR, STSv-/CTS-v, Solstice/Sky, large SUV's that they have out now on all of their numerous brands(poor SAAB).
With that said, once again the LS is going to be another phenomenal success for the company, but the Second Coming? Doubtful! Will Armageddon come when the LS460 hits showroom this fall? A very minute chance! Will DCX shutter the production of the World's Luxury S-Class because of fret that the LS will reign supreme everywhere, including it's homeland Europe(Germany)? Now that's a statement that is utterly impossible.....
The Sonata will be the best-selling car in America very soon. I am starting to see them all over the place.
We all know the LS will be a nice-looking car, but it's ability to be any less barge-like is doubtful.
The new GS was designed by Lexus to take it directly to the 5 series and the trumpets were loudly blasted by Lexus executives that the new GS was indeed, a "5 killer."
And we all know how that turned out as people have voted with their pocketbooks against the GS and overwhelmingly in favor of the Bangle 5 series.
The Lexus CEO made a fool of himself.
I hope the LS becomes more of a drivers' car, but I seriously doubt it because they couldn't even get it right with a car specifically engineered to be a "drivers' car."