High End Luxury Cars

oac · July 2006

Excellent points, Len. When you gross $200K+ in income, and you drive an LS, you must be unable to afford an S-class ! That's what I read from these kind of posts... Let's see, at $90K for an S550, you can probably lease one for the $1400 range (not exact # here, but roughly speaking). So at an income bracket north of $200K, this is going to send you to the poor-house ? Puleaze !

And now we must believe that Germancarfans who own an S-class could care less about resale values of their German automobiles... Talk about living in fantasy La La land ! Without good resale values, luxury cruisers are doomed to failure. Just ask Jaguar... even Audi to some extent... The strength of leasing is partly that the car will resell well after the leasing period, otherwise you or the leasing company eat the difference. Someone must pay for that resale value calculation/miscalculation in leases.... Meaning EVERYONE cares about resale - buyers/leasees and sellers/lessors...

tagman · July 2006

Hey, were you not supposed to be out of action until after Labor Day ? Get back to work, and catch up on those gadzillion e-mails awaiting your attention

I'm scheduled to be gone again the second half of August, and I do have a million things to catch up on, but I've got this short two to three week window to catch up on things and it is difficult to stay away from the forum after painfully missing a month.

You are right, my friend . . . I'd better get to work. I'll check in with you later.

TagMan

cyclone4 · July 2006

Len,

I think that you are probably the most qualified to answer this question. As you know I will be getting the new LS600hL when it becomes available next spring. I currently own (I paid cash) a 2004 LS430. I already have a couple of willing buyers for the LS430. My question is this: Would it be to my advantage to purchase outright or to lease the new LS600hL? At first, I was thinking that I was going to purchase. However, I have been having second thoughts lately. The technology is changing so fast with hybrids, etc. that it might be better if I lease it. In fact, we did lease the RX400h that my wife drives. It was a special one payment ($25,000) lease . We have a choice after 3 years (May 1 of 2008) whether to pay a balance of about $32,500 and own the RX400h or to give it up and get something new. I am very happy that we took this option since it gives us the freedom to do what we want after 3 years. I am almost positive that we will give it up and lease something new at that time. Who knows what the next generation RX hybrid will be like? It may be out of this world. So, what do you think I should do when the LS600hL is available? I know this is still pretty far into the future, but it does not hurt to ask.

ljflx · July 2006

Impossible to answer at this point without knowing lease deals, residuals etc. On the basis of battery changes in the future I'd say its better to lease than to buy and throw the resale risk on Lexus or the financial institution. A simple way to view a lease vs buy financially without net present values and sophisticated caics is estimate your money trail. A 90K purcase after 3 years really cost you about $108K when you calc in the lost interest on the $90K at say 6%. A lease and buy comparison is simple. Lets say your buyout is $54K and the lease deal is $1400 a month, so you are out 50,400 on the lease, about 4,600 on interest income lost, about $500 on lease fee and the $54K buyout, assuming you buy at lease end. Pretty close under those assumptions. Is it worth an extra grand to $1500 to throw the risk onto the financial institution vs being locked in to your purchase? Naturally the better you think you'll do vs 6% the more you are skewed toward leasing.

cyclone4 · July 2006

Thanks so much for your expertise Len. This does help out a lot. I guess more will be revealed next spring. I may ask your opinion again at that time.

lexusguy · July 2006

I am almost positive that we will give it up and lease something new at that time. Who knows what the next generation RX hybrid will be like?

Well, I wouldn't expect huge changes by 2008. A totally redesigned RX hybrid will probably hit around '10-11.

cyclone4 · July 2006

Thanks LG. You are probably right. But at least we will have nice options at that time.

blckislandguy · July 2006

North of 200K puts you in an S Class? Maybe not. If you are living in the Boston-to-Washington corridor or on the West Coast and living an upper middle class life style, filing jointly on 200K isn't a lot of money. It doesn't go very far with Andover costing 45K a year, a modest August rental on the Vineyard going for 15K, etc.

It seems to me that the whole key to driving a HELM is if you do it with pre-tax money (i.e., through your LLC, etc.) or post tax money. If you're not "running it through the company" as they say, I doubt that on 200K you're going to be driving an S Class.

YMMV

ljflx · July 2006

"A house is quite different from a car. Among my clients I dont know anybody who is motivated by resale values before buying a car(luxury or non-luxury). Except certain individuals in this forum (including myself)"

You guys brought up the resale value. Good luck finding a post where someone bought the LS because of future resale value. The resale value being high is the icing on the cake assuming you are selling in a relatively short time. The LS buyers on this board are holding their cars for 7 to as much as 16 years so resale at that lonngevity of ownership is almost irrelevant. If you're holding only 3-4 years and didn't lease than the higher than forecasted resale value is dessert, not the meal, and certainly not the cause of purchase. I look to resale for a different reason. It bothers me that Lexus underestimates the value of their 3 year old cars in lease deals. It means you are paying for depreciation that isn't happening. I also look to resale for future list prices. If a car is not holding up on reasle than the MSRP won't hold up either. You should lease, and not buy a car that is holding resale values poorly as the discounts are built right into the lease in such cases. And by resale I mean what used cars are really selling for, not a high lease residual, as the difference between that and the real used car selling price IS the subsidy built into the lease.

tagman · July 2006

I like the point you are making. May I suggest that those geographic areas that are known for their high cost of living generally have residents with higher income figures. It just goes hand-in-hand. I think that is true with most areas on a general average.

It therefore easily explains why in the most expensive places you still see the most HELMS, as opposed to the places with the lowest cost of living, where you will see more Hyundais and Kias.

len - there are PLENTY of reasons to buy a Lexus . . . resale not being a necessary consideration.

TagMan

oac · July 2006

The LS buyers on this board are holding their cars for 7 to as much as 16 years so resale at that lonngevity of ownership is almost irrelevant...

My 1999 LS400 in-service date: Nov 13, 1998 with 13 miles on the odo. July 2006 (almost 8 years later) and with 114K miles, car runs real strong, almost like new... As to its resale value, let's see...my 14yo daughter doesn't want it (she wants an Audi TT), and my wife doesn't want it either (she likes her LX470 better), so I will trade it in (FWIW) for an LS460. Maybe they'd give me a nickel or something for it, eh ?

oac · July 2006

True...

I live in San Diego... Not a cheap city to live by any stretch. $200K joint income is pretty much middle class here. For a city harboring one of the richest zip codes in America, an S550 is nothing to shout about. Way too many rich folks in this city of 3 Million. But $200K income, with proper investments can afford lots more than the income suggests. We have been lucky to have moved out of stocks into real estate a tad earlier than many others. And we did good in the red-hot market out here... So if you judge by income you'd say why would I buy an S550... But I sure can afford to lease one if I want to... However, the LS460 fits the bill for me. Luxury, refinement, style, quality, features/gadgetry (love gadgets) and priced right. I won't overpay for a 3-pointed star, period.

Hey, I got this brochure in the mail from Lexus. It claims the LS600hL will be 208.2" long. That'll put it a few inches LONGER than the S550. Is that going to be the case ? Oh it also says the output will be MORE than 430HP, with SULEV (70% cleaner emission than an S550/A8L/760iL)... Imagine this car priced in the mid-80s ? It'd sell out pretty quick. But here is the caveat: Lexus says the car is still in "development" but will be out in 2007. Huh !!! I'd hope its closer to production by now...

lexusguy · July 2006

But at least we will have nice options at that time.

True. If you're interested in something more sporty than the RX, there's the totally redesigned MDX. Infiniti should also have a brand new FX35\45 by '08 or so.

dewey · July 2006

SOURCE: Wall Street Journal July 29th, 2006

Compared with the previous Porsche Turbo model, the new car has a more utilitarian, less cluttered look. Its spoiler, which automatically pops up at high speeds to generate downward force that keeps the car's rear planted on the pavement, is barely noticeable from some angles. Nothing seems to have been added to the exterior as an afterthought.
The overall look of the leather seats and brushed-metal dashboard trim is racy and well-finished, though more purposeful than luxurious.
At first glance, the new Turbo looks much like a garden-variety 911 coupe

The above description should be the description of all German cars. Understated with uncluttered looks, utilitarian, function before form, more purposeful than luxurious.

Unfortunately not all German cars are Germanic

lexusguy · July 2006

Unfortunately not all German cars are Germanic

This certainly isnt:

tagman · July 2006

thanks, lg - I had a terrific dinner tonight and you just ruined it with that pic. Suddenly I feel like barfing.

TagMan

tagman · July 2006

I spent the day yesterday with my wife and another couple who invited us up to Napa for an event at the Silver Oak Winery for a special release of one of their wines. It was a gorgeous drive, with the gals in the back seat and guys up front. He was doing the driving in his fairly new Infiniti M45.

Of course, with me in the vehicle we were going to be talking cars sooner or later. I asked him about the Mercedes vehicles he previously owned and why he switched. He had owned the M-class suv and the small C-class with the V-6. Apparently, the C-class had 32 visits to the shop in about a year and a half. As he described the situation, just about everything imaginable had gone wrong with his cars . . . some of the situations being dangerous, with regards to the brake failure in the M and electrical meltdown in the C. He said the sunroof dislodged itself somehow in the M, and he was kindly describing all the horrible stuff that he and his wife had endured.

The surprising thing is that he still loves Mercedes, but he won't buy one again until he knows that they are more reliable. He said that he doesn't need the most reliable cars, just "reliable enough". He had a very balanced view of reliability, and was most patient with his unfortunate circumstances in his Mercedes vehicles.

As a Mercedes fan, I was sad, but I knew that those were not typical situations, but it left me shaking my head.

The Infiniti has not given him any troubles to date, and BTW, it was a very comfortable ride, and the interior was very well appointed, and tastefully designed for a car in that price tier. There were many well-thought out amenities and my respect for the marque has increased from this experience.

I have not lost my love for the Mercedes marque, but the truth is a good thing and it does place the perspective of reliability a bit more in focus for me.

BTW, I had the pleasure of meeting the owner of the winery and his son, amongst other interesting peple, including former Raiders Gene Upshaw, who happened to be there and signed my glass. Because of my association with my friend, who handles some of the winery's investment banking, I was allowed to purchase some of that delicious wine at a special price . . . so I did so. It was a beautiful day. Good thing I wasn't the designated driver!

TagMan

blkhemi · July 2006

The debates that have come about on this thread makes those old Swift-Boat ads seem tame...

So I've compiled a ballad of campaigns for the following sets to win the honors of '06:

Team Lexus: LG, OAC, the good Doc, ljflx, and few others slogans follows as such: We, the people of unprecedented quality, perfection, and luxury hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people should have the chance to own the most reliable car in it's class. While the styling may not be as bold as some of our constituents, but as we say in Washington, we're working on that: We urge you to give us your vote in fall of '06.....

Team Europe: myself BH, Merc1, hp, tag, dewey, and some others, we say: We, the people of unmatched balance of ride comfort and performance(BMW), impeccable fit/finish(Audi), world-class presence and innovation(MB), heritage and stately classic styling(Jag), we hold these truths to be self-evident, that the people of this great country shall no longer be bogged down with transportation that is boring, unsatifying, and dull. The Great people of this country will have the honor to choose(not be forced) what car suits their needs. Team Europe: The people of Choices.

This Novemeber will not have squat on what's going(and already happening) to take place in the HELM marketplace...

tagman · July 2006

I'm still laughing!

BTW, Team Europe will continue to win regardless of the count. According to the Doc, Bush is on our side . . . and he wins elections, regardless of the votes . . . or his reliability. :P

TagMan

blkhemi · July 2006

"As a Mercedes fan, I was sad, but I knew that those were not typical situations.."

You're absolutely right. Take my previous '01 S500. This was pre-'03 refresh, the very model that CR calls "the worst buy in the last decade". Well, the only problem I had was the usual COMAND failure that everyone experienced and one HID bulb. 41,000 miles of everyday driving and that was it. No ABC/Air-suspension failures, A/C problems, no electrical grimlins(much unlike my '98 LS400), noda..

And to my '05 S65 AMG. Two new rear tires was all the maintenance it required for 10,000 miles of onwership. Of course the usual oil/lube and other MB/AMG stuff, but nothing out of the scheduled maintenance. And the tires were due to my over-zealous driving habits.

So many people jump the gun about MB's and Bimmers being hugely unreliable. Take for instance Porsche. 10 years ago, it was thought to be nothing more than a weekend toy because of what people assumed to be unreliable. Now it's the most reliable company in the biz, hands down....

Despite it's many sophisticated electronic devices, trick suspension, AWD, complicated powertrain, and precious construction, I have not had not one issue with my A8L W12. Yes it's very German, but very reliable, not something I can say about the two Japanese LS400's I've owned, but again, case by case experience. Not all are complete lemons just like not all will be as reliable as advertised.....

tagman · July 2006

Despite it's many sophisticated electronic devices, trick suspension, AWD, complicated powertrain, and precious construction, I have not had not one issue with my A8L W12. Yes it's very German, but very reliable, not something I can say about the two Japanese LS400's I've owned

IMO, Audi is just out of the gate in its ascension. Audi will be one of the more exciting German marks to watch over the next few years and decade.

TagMan

blkhemi · July 2006

Maybe it was Bush that told Lexus that the GS would be an even better success if they add the GS450h in the mix.. Wrong again.. Makes me wonder, how much do we really know about the reliablity slogan Lexus has boasted over the years?

blkhemi · July 2006

Agreed, very much so.

tagman · July 2006

Maybe it was Bush that told Lexus that the GS would be an even better success if they add the GS450h in the mix.. Wrong again.. Makes me wonder, how much do we really know about the reliablity slogan Lexus has boasted over the years?

How is it that Lexus can have reliability issues and yet they slide off like Teflon?

TagMan

blkhemi · July 2006

What in the world happen to all of the Audi A8 consumer ratings??

blkhemi · July 2006

Great question. Maybe Team Lexus can elaborate in our inevitable debate before the day is over.

tagman · July 2006

We'll see.

TM

atlas7 · July 2006

Why all the venom? All of these cars are pretty sweet, they are all good cars. There is no one best car. I have never driven any of these cars, but I will buy one before '06 is out. Will drive S550, 750, and the LS460. I am sure I could live with any of them. I am sure I will have preferences one way or another, but that doesn't mean the cars that I don't choose, suck. Live and let live!

drfill · July 2006

I have not been briefed on these "Reliability issues" of which you speak, but Lexus could become Ford or VW for a year, and still be Quality Standard.

Lexus has earned more than any benefit of the doubt.

The problem with being Team Lexus/Toyota is that you've been whipping the Germans and the Americans in quality and value for so many years, it's like being the New England Patriots.

You mean the same team can't win the Super Bowl ever year, indefinitely? This must be the Seventh Sign of the Apocolypse!

Truly victims of their own success. Too good for their own good. If they have a hangnail, it's an International Media Event! :mad:

It would be like me sayin' when the C230 hatch was sent here (before being mercifully banished), and the ML was best seen on Tow trucks and Wreckers nationwide, that Mercedes was having "Prestige Issues", because they were pandering for cheap sales on one hand, and building junk on the other.

Nothing prestigious about 4-cylinder hatch. Nothing prestigious about a minivan that can't stay on the road. But Mercedes will always be Mercedes.

Everyone knows Lexus' place in the market, an ideal blend of Quality/Lux/Value, and everyone else is sucking wind to keep up. Mercedes is Lux/Prestige. BMW is Sporting Lux.

This is what is called "Common Knowledge". It seems that memo just hasn't reached all "Constituents" yet......

Keep me posted on the Demise of Lexus, doh. I could use a good laugh now and again.

DrFill

tagman · July 2006

I can't understand you when you're mumbling . . . and rambling.

I think you should refer to Sam's posts which compare and contrast the Mercedes and Lexus vehicles in one of the most balanced presentations we have seen.

You continue to put the Lexus on a pedestal, don't you?

Be careful, second commandment is - "You shall have no other Gods before me."

TagMan

drfill · July 2006

Just writing so you can understand, T. Did I go too fast for ya?

DrFill

tagman · July 2006

Did I go too fast for ya?

No chance . . . you'll never be going too fast in your Lexus, Doc. :P

TM

blkhemi · July 2006

No one said anything about the abolishment or demise of Lexus. Lexus is here to stay and we all know this.

Re-read the post and you'll understand that all was said was that Lexus is not immune from deficiency.

You can't make this into one of your Team Lexus shouting matches.

Talking about something that should've never came across the Pacific, the laughable ES250(circa 1990) and the previous-gen IS300 was an inert attempt by Lexus to encroach on the market by offering mal-performing cars at cheap prices. Witness the GS, a car that went from '98 to '04 without a single major update(besides a upgrade from 400 GS430). The new GS needs: A new engine, a touter suspension, and styling revisions already? This from the makers of PERFECTION? Paaleeeesssseeeee. Appalling to say the least. Lexus even admits that it had to do this in order to stay competitive(or lack thereof) with the E/5/A6. Still, if it had to be Japanese, the M35/45 walks on it all day long...

drfill · July 2006

Ask a BMW 330i owner trying to chase down an IS350 :P

DrFill

drfill · July 2006

Regarding your post, you back this Pit into a corner, he gonna bite! :mad: Had enough of your commentary recently.

C&D said last year that the GS430 is better than an E500 and 528!

And the last IS did very well, behind only the G35 and 328i in "11 Sports Sedans" back in 2002.

With a VDIM-off switch, new for '07, and a Manual tranny, the IS350 it is better than a 330i.

The M45 can be a great driver, but the GS is easily better-looking. Inside and out.

And with 303HP, the GS350 will go forward and multiply!

DrFill

brightness04 · July 2006

If "form follows fuction" is the basic tenet of German car design, doesn't that entirely debunk early assertions that others copy German stylistic elements? After all, these stylicstic elements are nothing more than what naturally flows from the function of a car, right?

brightness04 · July 2006

Talking about something that should've never came across the Pacific, the laughable ES250

Even that supposed subject of derision was better than its primary competition: 318i/318ic/318ti/190e, etc..

nvbanker · July 2006

You know, I bought my LS430, because I wanted to experience the whole Lexus thing - the "Passionate Pursuit of Perfection", bullet proof reliability, amazing performance. To be fair, I'm disappointed. Here's why;

PERFECTION: It isn't. I've had Lexus Link failures twice now, and the universal joint knuckle in the telescoping steering wheel had to be replaced. Not horrible, to be sure, but honestly, I've had Lincolns that gave me less trouble than this in 2 years of ownership.

PERFORMANCE: Uh....it's alright, but it could use more low end power for sure. You kind of have to kick it around the city to stay up with traffic. Or get a wheelchair sign for the mirror or something.

DESIGN: The seat is clearly the WORST design I've ever sat my fat American [non-permissible content removed] in. It's as flat as a board (the seat that is), no lateral bolster support at all. It's hard, and it's hard to get it comfortable. The car is short on legroom for Americans too, if you give yourself enough legroom, you're reaching for the Steering Wheel, even adjusted all the way out. The interior design is bordering on elegant, but not attractive by any means, and the outside says "my last car was a Grand Marquis", it's so old fashioned.

I hope some of these issues are addressed in the next line. The outside looks much better, hope the inside is too. I don't mind a couple of repairs now and then, but if she becomes a hanger queen, she's out of here. May as well get a Jag and enjoy the style, if I have to fix it.

blkhemi · July 2006

A IS350 and a G35 both are faster in a straight line, but neither has the legs of the 330i and they both will be completely left in the twisties and braking, where it really counts. Traffic light races are not all what these cars are about, and conversely, the 330i remains the champ.

BTW: That acceleration run that Lexus has over the 330 will be brief as the 330i will receive the 330iC's 310hp I-6 for '07. I hope that manual tranny is a good one that Lexus has found....

blkhemi · July 2006

The GS430 is better E500 and 528i?

So now it takes the V8 version to unseat the 6-cyl 5-Series? Doc, let's get more competitive and try it against the perinnial 550i, then we can talk And more over, last year doesn't count.

That same publication that you're quoting must've really thought about giving the GS that honor as they just said the E550 is the best all-arounder in it's class. So much for last year....

The GS better looking that the M? Purely subjective, albeit there are more than a few people who'd think otherwise on this very thread. The GS350 has not been tested yet, so that assumption is out of the window. But I don't think the bloated GS will out-run the cheetah-like new 295hp M.

blkhemi · July 2006

So much for the pursuit of perfection. There ya have it Doc, another one bites the dust...

Banker, you've experienced what a many people have gone through. In the pursuit of perfection and precision, Lexus completely dropped the ball in some critical areas, and judging from the rush job of the supposed 5-Series beating GS, they're still not even close to the mark of perfection. Reliability can only go so far; Porsche sell more reliable cars than Lexus does on a whole. The Buick Lucerne receives the same exact marks in projected reliability as the Lexus. I think the Buick precision commercials are actually paying off....

sv7887 · July 2006

Nvbanker,
You basically summarized my Lexus experience. My 2002 LS430 had the same steering issue and had the rain sensor replaced three times. My 1998 LS400 suffered from electronic gremlins that caused it to stall and the cluster to flicker.

The 2005 was mechanically sound but suffered from the worst paint I've seen in a long time. I've never seen paint chip and scratch that easily. It was really irritating to see new scratches on it every time I polished it. I barely drove the car 7,000 miles and there were chips and scratches in the clearcoat all over the car. (Especially the bumper area)

That was one of the biggest reasons for getting a S Class with Nanotech paint. It's amazing. I accidently clipped a dump truck with the side mirror of my S430. I saw the mirror fly off the car and was resigned to spending $600 or more to get a new one.

Much to my surprise the mirror was laying on the side of the street undamaged. There was a slight scratch in the paint and it snapped right back on the car..I couldn't believe my good luck. Good engineering on Mercedes' part.

I don't foster any illusions about my S430. I fully expect this car to break. As long as it's under warranty I don't mind. If it breaks, I have an excuse to drive my LS400. Or I can steal the Corolla from my son.

A word about the Corolla. I am very surprised with the build quality of this car. It rattles like crazy and the CD player doesn't work when the weather gets hot. The tires spin even in the slightest of rain..It's quite dangerous, especially when on a hill..

Seems like Toyota's build quality is slipping a little bit. I'm pretty sure the Lexus models should be fine. My only worry is the increasing technical complexity of these cars are going to cause problems. Ask Airbus how much trouble you can have with electronics!

Nv, I echo your feelings on a Jag..I'm still eyeing for for next year. The only problem is I have no room to store it in my house..Time to buy a garage!

-Sam

dewey · July 2006

After all, these stylicstic elements are nothing more than what naturally flows from the function of a car, right?

No contradiction whatsoever. These functional stylistic cues are in disrepute today. I guess you've heard the complaints about German cars being too austere and spartan?

There are many things that can be said about Banlgle design, but austere and spartan are certainly not a part of the Bangle vocabulary.. These lines and curves may be as temporary in BMWs as fin tails were temporarily used in 1950s Mercedes Benzes?

And maybe the BMWs of the future will have a more Germanic look than they do today just as 1960s Benzes looked more Germanic than the 1950s fintail models ?

merc1 · July 2006

Mercedes has fallen quite a bit in market share but not in actual sales number. The market has shot way up in the last 10 years but MB has'nt gotten much of the growth.

What? That isn't true. Mercedes sold 76,752 units in 1995 compared to 224,421 in 2005, they've nearly tripled their business in this country in the least 10 years so where you're getting this from I have no idea.

The luxury market has grown in the last 10 years like you stated, but has it tripled (or more than tripled to keep in line with that about MB not getting much of the growth) like MB's sales nearly have?

M

merc1 · July 2006

MB was sinking when he inherited it and had turned red and he's a cost cutter synergy type of guy. Who do you please - the purists like Merc1 or the investors? The answer is obvious and what I'd do if I were him is re-invent the Maybach at a much lower level and let it be the MB purist brand. Maybach is bleeding and going nowhere in its current state.

Interesting, but you can do both. Porsche does it. Just because the investors are pleased and a company makes money doesn't mean the cars have to be lifeless, dull and boring. This blending you're suggesting will make a Mercedes out of a Chrysler and a Chrysler out of a Mercedes, and thus Mercedes-Benz will be finished and there goes 1/2 of your business. The half that is currently profitable I might add. If this guy is as smart as everyone seems to think he is he won't dare trade in what makes a Mercedes a Mercedes to please some clueless investors. DCX ain't GM, and Mercedes ain't Saab.

All Maybach needs is a stunning new design that says look at me in the Rolls Phantom does. To go down market with Maybach say anywhere under 225K (the price of a Bentley Arnage) wouldn't make any sense because a S65 or CL65 already push 190K. Mercedes and Maybach can't overlap otherwise Maybach is rendered even more pointless.

M

tagman · July 2006

Now you can see the more realistic truth about Lexus that blkhemi and I told you this morning. As you read the entire day's posts you can easily see what we were saying all along. Read them and you will understand honest testimony from honest folks based upon honest real-life experiences.

We're not trying to insult you or Lexus, Doc . . . but these posts are honest and sincere . . . and balanced . . . what more could or should you want than that?

TagMan

merc1 · July 2006

I don't care how anyone is tuned into the "driving" aspect of a car. No one lives on left-hand turn race tracks, neither do people live on autobahns.... or motor speedways. The real purists don't drive mainstream cars like many of us here do... They drive STi, WRX, M/RS/S, Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc...all with a stick... Those AT AMGs don't count either (except for my fav MB, the E55). Now we are talking purists cos these cars are simply meant to be driven, no pretensions of luxury or fluff about these cars...They have only one purpose in their genre.. However, to use the word "purist" on a HELM board just don't work together... HELM refers to LUXURY MARQUES not sport-tuned sedans which you'd find in the LPS forum... To hear the so-called *purists* on HELM, you'd think that they live on speedways/race tracks... See, reality is that your car drives you from point A to point B, with some comfort, some speed, some handling, some pleasure, thrown in. No single car on this planet gives you EVERYTHING you'd need/want in a car.... Its all about business which provides such driving xteristics. Dr Z is a business man and he understands that lil' reality which I am afraid some Germancarfans struggle with... Its not that hard to grasp, is it ?

Apparently it is very hard to grasp because you just don't get it. All this worshiping of "Dr Z" by a bunch of Lexus fanatics is just hilarious. One person makes a "business minded" post about the man and all of a sudden he is the best thing since air conditioning. If you think that being a purist is just about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny.

The word "purist" as LJ is using it applies to folks who like MB for what it is and more importantly they actually know the brand and what it stands for, and they'd like to see it stay that way instead of blending (and losing) MB's DNA with a Chrysler. This goes way beyond your simplistic resentment of other brands that are able to actually make driver's cars.

I'm also noticing that we're talking about the head of a company, but this particular rant focuses on HELMs. Uh..we're talking about the whole company here not just the S-Class/LS sideshow so uh..the other cars these "luxury" brands make are like totally relevant here.

M

tagman · July 2006

All Maybach needs is a stunning new design that says look at me in the Rolls Phantom does

I'm not officially disagreeing with you, here, but let me suggest that it is much easier said than done, Merc. You don't just snap your fingers, get out your top designers and come up with something on that order or magnitude, IMO, and then assume the problem is solved. Yes, a stunning redesign is necessary, I agree, but PART of the fix. The rest, I'm afraid is some aggressive pricing.

To go down market with Maybach say anywhere under 225K (the price of a Bentley Arnage) wouldn't make any sense because a S65 or CL65 already push 190K. Mercedes and Maybach can't overlap otherwise Maybach is rendered even more pointless.

Not totally pointless. Your reasoning is well taken, but consider for a moment that the animals are different enough that a base price of about $175,000 to $190,000 for a stunning new Maybach might be just the answer. A further enhanced model could be based at $250,000. I don't see major cannibalization of the S65 or CL65. Again, different animals . . . and even if there was a little overlap as you thoughtfully indicated, you might be inclined to agree here that it would be well worth sacrificing a small slice of the Mercedes pinnacle to jump start the Maybach. Definately something to consider.

TagMan

merc1 · July 2006

C&D said last year that the GS430 is better than an E500 and 528!

Wrong, the GS430 faced a E350, not a E500 at Car and Driver.

And the last IS did very well, behind only the G35 and 328i in "11 Sports Sedans" back in 2002.

Oh so now 3rd place is respectable, only when it comes to Lexus I guess.

And with 303HP, the GS350 will go forward and multiply!

Yet at the same time it renders the GS430 the most pointless car in a Lexus showroom. Where is the GS460?

M

oac · July 2006

Apparently it is very hard to grasp because you just don't get it.
...
If you think that being a purist is all about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny.

The problem with you Merc1 is that your posts read like someone spoiling for a fight... that's why all the name-calling.... I am sorry, I won't oblige you. Read Designman, Tagman or BlkHemi's posts and compare to yours... difference is like night and day.

Fact is purists and HELM are not synonymous.... no matter the sugar coat and negative spin you try to put on it. Here we discuss High End Luxury Marque, or call them FULL-SIZE LUXURY SEDANS... That's the lil fact that you fail to grasp. There are no cars in this forum that a purist cares about.... so spare me the sermon about purists and who knows/does not know squat about nothing... Yes I'll repeat myself... you are no purist, simply an idealist, IMO !

I am off this bridge-to-nowhere point with you.. Go ahead and have fun with it.

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