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One of my dad's business partners who lives in the Streeterville area of Chicago, just has a Porsche Boxster as his only car. For he and his wife, living in the city, it's a perfect car. Small, fast, fun. And if you have guests, or need more space, you just take public transportation. That's an interesting thing about Chicago, everyone from blue-collar workers to CEOs will be seen taking the CTA.
Okay, you asked for an explanation, and I can give it to you, just be patient.
When someone decides to buy a new car, they usually set a goal price...usually the top price they will pay, out the door. This is even before they start looking at and comparing different models. They might have a few models in mind, but the real comparison starts after the goal price is set.
I think we could all agree that price is the most common limiting factor(do not confuse with determining factor) in a new car purchase, right?
So in the sense of the market, the LS430 is more of a competitor with the E430. There is the basic answer to your question. Same goes with the SC versus the SL...in terms of the market, the SC430 is more of a competitor with the CLK.
------------------------------
However, the issue you push is comparison. There is a difference between cars that are comparable and cars that are competitors.
The LS is comparable to the S class. The GS is comparable to the E class.
For me personally, the SC and the SL dont even compare. Sure, the arangement is pretty similar, but the purpose is completely different. The SL was designed with performance and luxury. The SC has never intended any emphasis on performance, other than having a fairly powerful engine.
The same goes with the ES and the C class. They are competitors, however they do not compare in my mind. FWD never has competed with RWD in my mind though. But that doesnt stop them from competing.
----------------------
Competing encompasses price as a major priority, because that is how cars compete in peoples minds. Comparing does not encompass price. You could compare a Pontiac Bonneville with a BMW 745, if your only consideration was size...however that does not mean they are competitors.
No technical issues were involved. Nealm1 just tried to state how crazy that was, and
except for you, found plenty of agreement. Even you would be hard pressed to say that a
6cyl E could compete with a V-8 of just about any pedigree. Now let's end this and I
promise I will never say another negative thing about MB on this board because you
simply can't handle it. "
First of all I'm trying to figure out where you and Nealm1 got 60K from for an E320, most of them would never be optioned out that high. I don't know why you and him can't understand that. For 60K I myself wouldn't want an E320 either, I'd go with the E500. Who other than Nealm1 was silly enough to actually believe the BS you and he kept harping about is the question. Where oh where was this "plenty of agreement" that you found....other than from another Lexus fan?
You and I have had this conversation before and we'll never agree on it, but then you turn around and say things like I can't "take it" because I disagree, you're starting to sound like all the GM fans out there who, once you don't agree with them, start saying "you're not being objective". Objective meaning you're not agreeing with them. You and him never cea
I can understand why you didn't get anything from driving an SL, all you're looking for is the stereo performance and soft ride, you may as well drive a Buick if thats all you're going to look for. I mean really, you dismiss technology as being nothing and then go on to say how it isn't needed, all from a 15 min test drive....that is ridiculous. Stick to Lexus, they've got your best wishes at heart.
nealm1,
I already explained to you why Edmunds website says that, it was a "FIRST DRIVE". Haven't you ever read a car mag where they list the price as "estimated", i.e. meaning they don't have the actual price yet? I can't believe that was so hard for you to grasp.
M
M
Wishinhigh - you said it about as well as it can be said. That is why when I was last shopping i initially started out comparing an E to an LS430, That was a mismatch supreme. So i went to the S-430 which was in the same league but priced 9k or so higher. Now we had a match going but the S-430 was an underpowered car next to the LS430 so I quickly moved onto the S-500. A great match but the latter was $18k more and could be optioned out to be $25-35k more. I thought the LS430 a better car than an S-500 for my driving desires and its ride quality and it was the more luxurious car. The sport version - if I wanted more performance - handles better than any base S-430/500 and it costs $100 more than a base LS430 - for the tires. But there was a wait for the car at the time and I couldn't wait.
"I'll take excess luxury with the right amount of performance over excess performance and less luxury all the time."
Thats why I said you'll be better off with Lexus.
M
Hope someone out there responds to my journalist friend on the following mission:
Anyone out there shopping for a BMW? I'm a journalist with a national
publication looking for people who have owned or are seeking to buy a
BMW. I'm also looking for long-time BMW owners with thoughts about the
styling of the new 7-series. If you don't mind being quoted, please send
an email with your telephone number to carguy147@hotmail.com and I will
call and interview you. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks from both of us,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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Cadillac Divisonal Sales:
--Up 53.6% over Ausgust 2001 to 21,942
--Up 19% for the year to 128,700
Cadillac Car Sales:
--Up 41% over August 2001 to 16,493
--Up 6.1% to 96,565 for the year
Cadillac SUV Sales:
--Up an astounding 110% over August 2001 to 5,449
--Up an astounding 89% for the year to 32,135
Indeed, nothing short of amazing...
Yeah, I have seen people compare the pontiac bonneville to the 740i. Does that mean they are competitors too?!
And regardless of what you think, buying habits are the same with rich people as those less well off. The only difference is those with more money to spend can rationalize spending more money for certain things.
It is not like they are thinking, "Hey I like the SC430 a lot, it has everything I want, and at a great price. But wait...I can afford the SL500 so I think I'll get that."
So where do you draw the line between "most people" and "rich people"? You seem to imply there is a distinct line between those that can afford an S430 and those that can buy an C230. Does someones mindset change as soon as their income increases past your line?
wishnhigh1,
Ditto. But I can't help but say that anyone who seriously compares a Pontiac Bonniville to a 7-Series is an idiot to begin with. I know you understand that those two buyers couldn't be more different.
ljflx,
True, and I'm done with it.
M
I got an LS430 after two MB, and it would take a major upheaval in one of the two brands to make me think of switching back. Most of the people I have seen posting in the LS board had previously owned MB as well, and also considered an S class purchase. None come to mind that regretted their decision to go with Lexus.
How many former LS owners have switched to MB and been happy afterwards? To me this is a true test of how the customer base for both these cars perceives their relative merit, more than comparisons based on magazine statistics from people that have never had more than a test drive in either. The zealots on either side would not budge in any case, but the shakeout of the "undecideds" tells alot.
ljflx - so this is where you and the crew have been hanging out!
There are many overhauls coming up for the 2004 LS but I don't even think Lexus has yet finalized what they will be. I'm glad because that's when I renew my lease and I'm not going anywhere. You're right about many of those who have switched. It's hard to leave near perfect reliability in the first place, let alone when the competing brands are slipping.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3229
http://www.aiada.org/gr/issues/luxtax/luxtax.htm
Anybody know any different?
Tim
And stevestein, that analysis based on movement trends between brands was very insightful.
Can't believe I missed so many posts and such a spirited - if predictable - debate. Back on the LS board we're reduced to arguing about the nav system being a deadly distraction!
Feel free to email Eric.Gillin@thestreet.com with your comments or contact information. Thanks!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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this is a rare find.bought from an estate sale,
the dealer kept me from going to mb to sniff around.i bought the car for 58k from the dealer
with 5.25% financing.lexus somtimes makes it hard
to rear off to another brand name.the lexus financing is easy to hop on since they can play
with the big boys in % numbers.so far this car is
flawless except for the goodyear tires that need to be replaced at 35k miles
Our S class (1987) was safe, but this one tops our big time...
to a special few on here.
If it doesn't have the fanciest stereo, the softest leather, extra glossy wood, lowest sheen
plastics, and coffin-like silence then it's a cheap pitiful car. Thats all you need nowadays
to "impress". Nevermind all that wasted engineering beneath the car.
M
What's with all the exaggerations and more importantly what's with all the bitterness?
"Some of the ones MB differentiates itself with only come as options and only end up on a handful of cars anyway."
Not entirely true. Electro-hydraulic braking is on every E-Class and SL. ABC is available on all the S and CL-Class cars, and MB's unequaled safety engineering is present on every car they make.
"What's with all the exaggerations and more importantly what's with all the bitterness? "
What exaggerations? That seems to be all the talk on here now, plastic quality, wood and stereos. If a car doesn't excel in those areas it's not up to par, everything else doesn't matter. Not bitter at all, just going by the mood on here lately.
M
M
Anyway, great engineering is a matter of perception. Are Mercedes clearly better engineered than other luxury makes? Do they handle better than BMW's? Have better reliability than Lexus's? Better craftsmanship than Audi's? Safer than Volvo's? Are features like electro-hydraulic braking or ABC adding significantly to your driving experience?
Don't get me wrong, they are for the most part very nice cars. But this vaunted engineering prowess is mostly a thing of the past.
Amen!
World class car engineering should include the engineering that goes into making all customers happy...not just the engineering that goes to making engineers and car enthusiasts happy.
While many of you have also discussed the group that has switched from Mercedes and to a lesser degree BMW to Lexus, I know many who have switched from Lexus to Mercedes b/c there is a perceived difference in qualities such as solidity and perceived safety. A friend of mine who has a 2001 LS430 didn't realize how unsatisfied he would be with his car is now trying to sell it. He also has a 92 SL that he's trying to sell as well since he can't fit in it anymore. But he will agree that there is this sense of solidity that you can't quantify in a Benz.
Reliability is difficult to gauge as the typical Mercedes driver will more angry at any mechanical or electrical issue than that of a Lexus driver. I myself know of hoards of Mercedes drivers who have had no issue on their late model Mercedes. Mercedes, while rated less in reliablity than Lexus, is similar or better than BMW and Audi.
In the end, I do believe Mercedes must continue improving it's perceived and actual quality which I think will be marked by the year 2003 as the new E and CLK class have been rated ahead of their competitors in European publications. They both have been heralded as a return to traditional Mercedes values of quality. The S class receives a much needed interior revamp, the SL is just wonderful, and the M class has one less year of life.
However, I don't feel they are true luxury since they break down all the time. And to make matters worse, I see more '86-'92 E class than '84-'93 190 Es. How is that?
Simply put, the 190 is pure garbage and if you look at most of them that are around today, they look like crap as well. And I am surprised that they have not aged well like the 300E compared next to them. Those 190s creak and rattles over minor potholes and bumps now. Poor condition automobiles at best.
J "CaddyLac"
I have stated a many times that Mercedes-Benz needs to get reliability under control especially since they're taking technology further and further with each re-design. Agreed.
What gets me about certain people in here is that they'll tell you that a Benz is made of Kia grade plastic and a sound system so bad that you can't hear it. Every Mercedes is this cheaply built, poor handling, terribly unreliable side-of-the-road car.
Lexus on the other hand has never ever had a problem, no recalls nothing. Perfect in just about every way. Good-looking, welded correctly from the factory, outhandles BMWs etc, etc.
Pluskin, handling like a BMW was never part of the design brief for any Mercedes except the C-Class. Where is it written that a Mercedes has to out-handle a BMW? BMW for all their "handling" doesn't move nearly as many cars as Mercedes does over 50K. Handling plays second fiddle to cracked engine blocks and failed SMG transmissions. Don't get me wrong, I love BMWs, but this "handling" thing is getting a little absurd now. Nowhere other than at the C-Class level has Mercedes ever said anything about BMW and trying match their handling.
As far as safety is concerned I think you need to see the photo about 10 or posts back. I seriously doubt any other car would have held up as good as that S430 did. Only Volvo comes to mind.
"World class car engineering should include the engineering that goes into making all customers happy...not just the engineering that goes to making engineers and car enthusiasts happy.
Nearly impossible. You can't make everyone happy. A Mercedes never was and never will be as "plush" as certain cars it's not the MB way. If you want gushy-plush, Cadillac and Lexus will gladly sell you a car. If Mercedes went that route their traditional customers would be gone.
M
Last time I checked, Benz was in the business to sell cars. Lexus sells more cars than Benz. Do you think that Mercedes doesnt really care enough to try to cater to the tastes of the new modern Lux buyer???
Are Mercedes clearly better engineered than other luxury makes?
Do they handle better than BMW's?
Have better reliability than Lexus's?
Better craftsmanship than Audi's?
Safer than Volvo's?
To answer your first question, Yes in most ways they are. Though it's lost on the uninformed or the type that can't get past the window sticker or that all important 10 minute test drive.
Do they out-handle BMWs? No, never were intened to. Better reliability than Lexus. No. No argument there. Safer than Volvo's thats a good debate since Volvo is the only other company that can hold a candle to Mercedes' experience with safety engineering. Better craftsmanship than Audi. Not quite. Does a Benz suffer the problems that Audis have? Nope. Side note: I love Audi too, but they don't build a car even cable of standing next too a Benz over the long haul, once all the wood and leather treatments get old.
What I'd like to know is what car does all of these things in one singular package. Outhandles a BMW, more reliable than a Lexus, better made than a Audi, safer than a Volvo. What car does all of this? Please tell me because I want one.
Does ABC and SBC add anything to the driving experience? Every driven an Mercedes with these features? How do the SL55 and SL500 overcome their heavy weight to post excellent handling numbers? Ever read any posts here from S and CL owners with ABC on their cars?
"This vaunted engineering prowess is mostly a thing of the past."
Oh really, I'd like to know what other company is pushing technology like Mercedes.
M