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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I do believe the IS is supposed to be directly competitive with the 3 series.

    It's really a shame. Many more years ago than I care to remember, Toyota was making a serious effort at producing cars that provided some driving excitement.
    My heart still pounds thinking of the first time I got behind the wheel of a Supra.
    I have no idea why they abandoned this mission and decided to concentrate exclusively on mainstream automotive blandness.

    There is no excuse for the IS not to be as much fun as a 3 series, given the price and size of the vehicle.

    The $14k Kia Rio manages to provide really exhilarating performance, for heavens sake!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    IMO the Infiniti G, especially the upcoming model will be a true competitior to the BMW 3 series.

    I can definitely see it winning some comparison tests, especially now that C&D seems more concerned with MSRPs than they have been in the past. An '04, 260hp managed a 1st place win because C&D only allowed a 325i based on price. They'll probably do that again with the new cars.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Fortunately this comparison test approach is not followed by other car reviewers.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    There is no excuse for the IS not to be as much fun as a 3 series, given the price and size of the vehicle.
    The $14k Kia Rio manages to provide really exhilarating performance, for heavens sake!


    The luxury, styling, quality and straight line performance of an IS350 is superior to a BMW 330i series. And it is also harder to negotiate a good deal on an IS than a 3 series.
    Your statement above makes me want to switch to the Lexican team. Most luxury cars are not as fun to drive as a BMW 330 including my own BMW 530xi Touring.

    Despite the above fact I cant think of a better family wagon to drive, except ofcourse the MB E55 AMG wagon. And even if the AMG was not beyond my pocketbook I would still pick the more staid Bimmer mainly because of its three pedals.

    Which reminds me the Kia Rio does have three pedals and is also a family wagon just like mine. :surprise:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The luxury, styling, quality and straight line performance of an IS350 is superior to a BMW 330i series.

    Careful . . . it sounds like you are starting to agree with my point about Lexus vs. BMW. ;)

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Careful . . . it sounds like you are starting to agree with my point about Lexus vs. BMW

    You're right. I better take two Extra-Strength Tylenols and hope I become myself again
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    What happened after 8 pm last night? Someone pissed Len off into oblivion, now who am I gonna argue with for good company? Ah, the good Doc is here....

    Back to IS V. 3 talk again . The IS is an awesome hustler and features Lexus usual quality, even better styling than anything in their stable. But the buck stops there.

    The 3-Series is still the champ(and I say this over my beloved A4 3.2/S4/RS 4) in it's class. The recipe has been protected for over 20-years. No car in it's class out-steers, out-corners, out-manuvers the perinnial 330i. And with the 330i getting the 330iC's new 310-hp twin-turbo I-6, that acceleration lead over the Bimmer will end soon enough, especially seeing how in BMW(and Audi) fashion, you'll be able to row your own.

    Yes the BMW sales figures were off unexpectedly. The 5 is still doing well for the year. Not one bit shocked at the E-Class sales figures as everyone anticapates the '07 for this fall, biggest wait is for the E550.

    On other news, Ford recalls 1.3 million trucks and SUV's, it's main source of existance. Now wonder America's favorite automobile of any type may lose it's crown to the Dodge Ram.

    Someone mentioned something about the merger with VW/Porsche. Although I'm very fond of the VW AG company, Porsche will never ever concede all rights to VW, no matter how good the offer. With the most profit per car sold in any company, why would the risk it? They have complete control over style/powertrain decisions(something that was written is stone with the Q7, T'Regg, Cayenne alliance)...

    On Tokyo Express, they mentioned that the LS will have an app. start of 58.5k, with the range topping LS600hL stopping short of 90k. Not far off the mark of many analysist...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The 3-Series is still the champ(and I say this over my beloved A4 3.2/S4/RS 4) in it's class.

    There is no dispute over that statement. The origin of this thread was when I suggested (as I have in the past) that Lexus is taking a shot at BMW with the IS, and that BMW is becoming more vulnerable in the marketplace.

    The more you look at it, the more you start to see my point, as Dewey did (before he took the Tylenol), and hpowders did to a degree.

    What's your take on the beginning of a Lexus threat to BMW?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    continues to produce great vehicles and offers them through leases with incredibly high residuals to keep monthly payments down and Lexus provides very little lease support, I'm not worried about any potential threat from Lexus.

    I had a choice last year between a 545 for $721 and a GS430 for $755, the latter quote making me the envy of everybody on the GS board because they were getting lease quotes of $850 for the GS430.

    And Lexus still couldn't come down to the BMW quote.

    As long as this persists, I'm not worried.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The VDIM is defeatable for '07, so all they need is a manual tranny and they'll be top dog, according to C&D. I have to agree. Getting rid of the VDIm will help road feel tremendously. :)

    The base 2.5 won't sell on paper, especially with AWD.

    The 250 has been times at 7.1 0-60, so it isn't a dog. Just looks like one.

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    continues to produce great vehicles and offers them through leases with incredibly high residuals to keep monthly payments down and Lexus provides very little lease support, I'm not worried about any potential threat from Lexus.

    The origin of this thread was when I suggested (as I have in the past) that Lexus is taking a shot at BMW with the IS, and that BMW is becoming more vulnerable in the marketplace.


    Howard and Tagman,

    this is not about vulnerability or high residual values.

    The success of BMW and Lexus are independent of each others. That does sound a bit confusing so please let me explain with the following example:

    A Lexus that is as spartan and drives like a BMW will be a DISASTER!

    A BMW that is as luxurious and drives like a Lexus will be a DISASTER!

    Both marques cannot afford to be more like each others or else they will both alienate their customers. Lexus will remain more popular in the USA (BMWs are more popular in Canada) because its attributes are more closer to US mainstream expectations. BMW will remain more popular outside the USA because its attributes reflects mainstream expectations outside USA.

    So the only way Lexus will remain a threat to BMW is when Lexus cars become like BMWs and that is just not going to happen(assuming Lexus knows what is in their long term interests)!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I fully agree with your previous post.

    Lexus' latest assault on BMW in regards to the IS is nothing short of amazing. Never in the company's history have they produced anything remotely close to tearing down the 3. The IS is the car that should've been here with the '00 3-Series. I have absolute repect for the car as it embodies what it takes (to some degree) to be a successful sport sedan. Some tweaking of the chassis, better steering feel, higher grip tires, a more reclined rear seat and BMW may have something to worry about. This is something Lexus may correct with the second year of production

    Now, if Lexus does green light the IS500, then the M3/RS4/CTS-v/C55 AMG crowd will get some serious comp.

    But all is not peachy at Lexus. They still don't know what to do about the GS. First they were to give the V6 more oomph but where would that leave the V8(for now)? Then they were to kill off the V8 model completely for the GS450h? Just install the new 4.6 and call it a day to stay competitive. A complete overhaul(excluding the RX- kill the RX400h tho) of their SUV's is well overdue. The GX remains unimpressive, and the LX, altho very capable and comfortable, is dated in it's category. The HPX would serve Lexus proud.

    BMW on the other hand: This company knows what it's customer wants and it delivers. The i-Drive confusion(altho I don't see how it was so confusing) did little to sway it's loyalist away from the brand. With a new 3-Series Coupe, the new X5, the newly introduced X7(a Escalade/RR rival), and a slew of M cars, the company has plenty to keep it's customer base happy. A refreshed 5-Series in '08 should keep it inline with the E-Class and A6. And let's not forget the long-awaited 7-Series for '08(on sale late fall '07). This is the car that is supposed to correct all shortcoming of the current model. With a projected first ever diesel-hybrid, a direct injected 420-hp V8, a first ever M model(finally), and a MB-beating 612hp V12 with a DCX-esque cylinder shutoff, the 7 may longer be the laughing stock in it's class.....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Makes sense.

    We need both BMW and Lexus as is, to appeal to the living and the dead, respectively.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You seem awfully worried about our 1st place Lexus team, but fret not.

    The IS is clearly gaining traction in the marketplace, as it's sales vs comparable BMW models indicates (6000 to 4800). VDIM is defeatable for 2007, improving road feel and ability, and I would wager a manual will appear for 2008 in the 350, around the time the 500 will arrive. I am very confident that the New IS is the 3's greatest challenge yet!

    The GS will get 303HP this year, and the new V8 sometime next year, and it is able to sell with the more potent M to this point, so it is doing fine, and the future also looks bright! In that class, the M is too heavy-handed in style for me, and the GS is too soft. I would quickly take the 5.

    The LX will be replaced by the end of next year, and I too hope the HPX breaks into the US.

    You seem disappointed in the GX, but the people, and C&D, are much more impressed. Pure trucks like the GX are taking a hit these days. Maybe the HPX will replace it, but not because of any great failings on it's part.

    And we all admit the LS will rule this country when it graces us with it's presence. :)

    You also seem to imply that BMW knows what it's customers want. And Lexus doesn't?

    BMW knows what sporting drivers want (except for iDrive). And Lexus knows what luxury car/truck buyers want.

    Granted, Lexus seems conflicted when it comes to producing a vehicle more entertaining. It seems they're listening to their older clientele, and are not focused on getting 25-40 year-olds, more interested in BMWs.

    The New IS is several steps in the right direction, but dropping the manual on the stud 350 does count as a fumble. :cry:

    But, Hemi, the sky is not falling.

    The future is, indeed, so bright, I gotta wear :shades:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good post . . . lots more than rhetoric . . . you provided meaningful content. Thank you.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yes indeed, I'm actually going to the Lotus dealer tomorrow to look at and test drive the Lotus Elise. I'm still interested in that car for some reason. A street legal race car . . . something for the soul I guess.

    The practical side of me says to get the Cayman, but I've had the Boxster and previously a Carrera, and, frankly, while I love the Porsches, they all do look a little similar at this point, with the current look now reaching ten years!

    The Elise is also eye candy, no doubt. And its performance specs are nothing short of spectacular.

    I'm supposed to meet with the general manager at about 1PM tomorrow afternoon. We've had nice chats on the phone so far.

    There's no telling what I'll do. I'll keep you all posted, as I promised.

    If anyone here wants to offer any feedback or suggestions, please feel free to, as I am now officially in Lotus mode.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I had a choice last year between a 545 for $721 and a GS430 for $755, the latter quote making me the envy of everybody on the GS board because they were getting lease quotes of $850 for the GS430.

    And Lexus still couldn't come down to the BMW quote.


    There is some twisted logic here. On one hand, many of you say Lexus doesn't have the clout of the Germans, and Lexus is lower priced to its German competition. OTOH, you see the GS430 priced HIGHER than your precious 545i. How so ? And Lexus won't deal much... They must have something good, and they know it. The LS may be lower priced, but its leasing rates are often HIGHER than the higher priced S430. Go figure... The argument of price falls flat on its face. Enjoy your 545i... God knows we've heard enough about it already...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    So the only way Lexus will remain a threat to BMW is when Lexus cars become like BMWs and that is just not going to happen(assuming Lexus knows what is in their long term interests)!

    My o my ! Are we living in rose-colored houses or what ! Lexus cars to be like BMWs ??? Gotta be kidding... Since when did BMW become the sales benchmark for Lexus to emulate ? BMW lives and dies on sales of the 3-series... Way too dependent on a single model line, don't you think ? OTOH, Lexus makes its hay on the GX, RX, ES, LS, and increasingly the IS.... Far more successful lines than BMW. It may hurt your Germancarfan pride to see how Lexus continues to cream most BMW in sales, must be that most buyers prefer Lexus to BMW, isn't it ? Maybe those buyers don't know/care squat about the drivability of a BMW, eh ?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Say what you will, but the LS goes after the S and the IS goes after the 3. What's so wrong with that?

    TM
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Saw an Elise the other day, in mustard yellow... For the life of me that car is no beauty ! I'll take a Porsche anyday... Of course you've had your fill of Porsches, so maybe an edgy car like a Lotus will be the elixir... I am not sure you can take the daily pounding on the back and knees that car will give you as a daily driver. Why not just get a Bimmer M3/5 or something similar ? Maybe even an R4/6... These cars have the driveability of an Elise, with good looks and driving pleasure. I shouldn't praise a BMW to you... But if its an Elise, good luck...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    For the life of me that car is no beauty !

    For the life of me it sure is!!!!! And, the good news is that the touring package now available in '06, smooths the ride out a TON, compared to '05. Some reviews now say it's good enough to be a daily driver, but I'll determine that for myself. I don't need it to be a daily driver anyway . . . just an occasional driver for the excitement, thrill and fun that it eagerly provides in large doses.

    Here's a shot from top gear's gallery.

    image

    Enjoy,

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wasn't counting the R or GL class, as they are brand new. The ML and G are down.

    Well you didn't say that, you have to be more specific, you know that!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well when you frame it that way...lol! Nothing but a slight blip in the BMW sales machine, well at least so far.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    can definitely see it winning some comparison tests, especially now that C&D seems more concerned with MSRPs than they have been in the past.

    I can't stand it when they do that! It it hasn't been just recently either. That same type of lame thinking is what put an Allante over a 300SL back in the day while they had a story off to the side about how the 500SL would kill the Allante. Sometimes C&D is so smart to the point where they're just plain stupid! This last test in which the SL550 and XLR-V were at or over 100K while the BMW and Jag were in the 85-87K range they called it the 100K question, yet way back when the Allante and 500SL were only like 20K apart and yet....well you get my point. They are so darn fickle.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My o my ! Are we living in rose-colored houses or what ! Lexus cars to be like BMWs ??? Gotta be kidding... Since when did BMW become the sales benchmark for Lexus to emulate ? BMW lives and dies on sales of the 3-series... Way too dependent on a single model line, don't you think ? OTOH, Lexus makes its hay on the GX, RX, ES, LS, and increasingly the IS.... Far more successful lines than BMW. It may hurt your Germancarfan pride to see how Lexus continues to cream most BMW in sales, must be that most buyers prefer Lexus to BMW, isn't it ? Maybe those buyers don't know/care squat about the drivability of a BMW, eh ?

    See more of the same. Dewey said nothing of the sort about Lexus cars having to be like BMWs. The line of discussion was about Lexus being a threat to BMW in the context of getting more die-hard/long time BMW drivers into a Lexus, not the usual cheerleading about sales and who is going to destroy who. What Dewey is saying is that BMW and Lexus are different types of cars and that neither would gain anything by moving too far in the other's direction. This has nothing to do with sales, it has to do with what Lexus and BMW think a luxury car should be in terms of design/dynamics etc and how different those views are.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "You see the GS430 priced HIGHER than your precious 545. How so?"

    I have no idea. Given the professional reviews overwhelmingly picking the 545 over the GS430, this remains one of lifes' unexplained mysteries.

    Given the cramped cabin, uncomfortable seats, gated shifter, gimmicky brakes and steering, electronic nannies and laughably small trunk of the GS430, I am content that I not only got the better vehicle, but a terrific value as well. :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This has nothing to do with sales, it has to do with what Lexus and BMW think a luxury car should be in terms of design/dynamics etc and how different those views are.

    Exactly!
    Imagine what would happen to MB's reputation if they produced a fwd ES? Imagine the threat to the BMW marque if the 3 and 5 series is offered with no stick and equipped with a electronic nanny like the vdim? Unlike these two German marques, Lexus can sell a lot of fwd ES models. Lexus can sell many vdim IS models that are not even offered with a manual tranny.

    I dont think you and I would cheerlead MB and BMW if both these companies ovetook Lexus in terms of US sales at the expense of softer handling Benzes and Bimmers. IMO that would be a nightmare.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It would be foolish for any of us to try and influence your choice. I'm sure you researched it thoroughly.

    Personally, I would go with the Cayman S.

    But if the Lotus makes you happy, go for it, enjoy it and let us know how it rides.

    Best of luck with your purchase. :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The practical side of me says to get the Cayman, but I've had the Boxster and previously a Carrera, and, frankly, while I love the Porsches, they all do look a little similar at this point, with the current look now reaching ten years!

    Did you see TG's review of the Cayman? Clarkson was somewhat disappointed with it. "You get the sense that the engineers could've made the Cayman (I wont say ****ster) faster, and better, but they weren't allowed to, because then it would be faster and better than a 911. I couldn't live with that. I think a car should be engineered to be as good as it can be, not engineered to fill a gap in the marketplace".

    One other point, TG mentioned that Lotus normally fits Elises with skinny front tires to make the car prone to understeer for unskilled drivers. They said if you get the dealer to fit proper tires in the front, the handling improves greatly. Please let us know what you think of the Lotus.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If I was an empty nester or if I had a garage of more than a few cars(my house has a small garage which in itself is a great luxury in midtown/downtown Toronto) then my top choice would be a Carrera S. Unfortunately my choice is highly hypothetical and I wont be visiting a Porsche dealer today. :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Most of the reviews of the Cayman S have been overwhelmingly positive bordering on the ecstatic in some cases-such as Andrew Frankel's review in the Sunday Times-the same place inhabited by Clarkson.

    The fact that Clarkson didn't like the Cayman S means little.
    He seems to enjoy verbally tearing most cars to pieces, assuming you have the patience to read through 1000 words of introductory exposition to finally get to the actual review. :sick:
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Please euthanize me the day Jeremy Clarkson influences my car purchase.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Did you see TG's review of the Cayman? Clarkson was somewhat disappointed with it. "You get the sense that the engineers could've made the Cayman (I wont say ****ster) faster, and better, but they weren't allowed to, because then it would be faster and better than a 911. I couldn't live with that. I think a car should be engineered to be as good as it can be, not engineered to fill a gap in the marketplace".

    The Cayman is a terrific car, but only worthwhile in the "S" configuration, IMO. Regardless of what Clarkson says, most all the Cayman reviews are pretty darned incredible.

    TG mentioned that Lotus normally fits Elises with skinny front tires to make the car prone to understeer for unskilled drivers. They said if you get the dealer to fit proper tires in the front, the handling improves greatly

    Almost EVERY review of the '06 Lotus Elise is probably more amazing than even the Cayman reviews. I've read and printed out nearly every one of them. The tires are an easy upgrade directly available at Lotus, and available in a couple of packages. No concern at all there.

    My top concerns are the vehicle's somewhat spartan interior even when amenities are added. You know, I don't need to be greedy, but will it be cozy enough? Also the size . . . will it be too small a vehicle? And, of course, the ride quality is paramount to getting this car. I guess what I am saying is , overall just how much comfort is sacrificed to achieve the stellar performance that the Lotus Elise is known for? That's what I'll be looking out for.

    The Porsche is always there as a safe bet if this Lotus lets me down. Cayman S or Carrera S. Good safe bets.

    Then there's that limited edition "Sports Elise" that I need to consider. Only 50 made. Number 25 is available. AutoWeek wrote up an article on it. But only in yellow with silver stripes . . . and phenomenal performance.

    link title

    Please accept my thanks to those of you that have shown an interest in chatting with me about this. Most appreciated. :)

    Well . . . less than 6 hours till discovery time. :confuse:

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Also the size . . . will it be too small a vehicle?

    I see these around sometimes, there is a brand new Lotus dealership in my town, in fact on the same block as my office. Not my cup of tea (I'm not a "sport" fanatic), but it does look pretty small, almost toy-like when I see one on the road.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    My crystal ball says you'll be getting a Porsche. Regardless, I look forward to your review of Elise.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Sometimes C&D is so smart to the point where they're just plain stupid! This last test in which the SL550 and XLR-V were at or over 100K while the BMW and Jag were in the 85-87K range they called it the 100K question, yet way back when the Allante and 500SL were only like 20K apart and yet....well you get my point. They are so darn fickle.

    I take C&D reviews with extra salt. I don’t trust their performance results. For instance, in the test you mentioned the 911 came in third in the slalom. The 911 blows them all away on weight, not to mention it has the superior suspension and rear engine. There is no way it doesn't win among that bunch in a slalom. NO WAY. Also their acceleration times seem inconsistent with others at times. I just don’t think their test drivers are the sharpest knives in the drawer. For performance tests, R&T is the best in my opinion. Also, C&D has a flowery writing style that is not unlike Clarkson’s. I don't like that with performance comparos, but that's a separate issue.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    we will all be waiting with breathless anticipation for CR's take on the 911 in next month's issue.

    I can see it now: "While not as roomy as the Camry..."
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I take C&D reviews with extra salt. I don’t trust their performance results.

    For performance tests, R&T is the best in my opinion.

    I see your point now and then. Depending upon the car(s) being comped, tested or reviewed, there are times that I could throw any one of those rags in the round file.

    But, when all lumped together, they provide a cumulative view.

    It's always unfortunate when the hard numbers are not the same, though, and I find that intolerable when there are gross differences in data. At those times, someone is clearly incompetent.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    and in only a few more hours I'll be in the driver's seat of the Lotus Elise.

    I think I'll swing by the Porsche dealer first, since it's on the way. Test that 911 again. ;)

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You know what the problem is with testing Porsches these days? The suspension and drivetrain setups are so numerous what with PASM, SportChrono, wheel sizes and engines. I could drive a salesperson nuts.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So . . . are you suggesting that the different results are due to different configurations? Comparing apples to oranges somehow?

    The last visit I had to the Porsche dealer a couple of months ago, I was surprised to find that there are now SO many options and variations to consider. It was insane.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    So . . . are you suggesting that the different results are due to different configurations? Comparing apples to oranges somehow?

    I don't quite understand your question. Are you talking about the comparos in the mags?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    sorry . . . I am.

    and I see where you didn't mean that. You must have been talking about an individual testing, not the rags.

    Anyway, time to go have some fun. I'll tell you about it all later.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sounds to me like you really, really wanted that GS...but just could not afford it and had to settle for the 545!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • allcarsrcoolallcarsrcool Member Posts: 113
    With the success of the Chrysler Pacifica and Mercedes R-Class, would it be plausible that lexus is considering to design their own version; after all, they are missing a few names in the suv/crossover line up, or does the RX already fill that 4-door, 3-row, 6-seater spot? (yes i know the RX does not have a 3rd row or even seat 6)

    Sedan SUV
    LS -> LX
    GS -> GX
    ES -> __
    __ -> RX
    IS -> __
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The R-class has had disappointing sales.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'll take your post as intended humor.
    If the 545 is "settling", please give me more! Heh! Heh!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, let's just say MB's venture into the minivan segment has been unsuccessful.
    I mean who needs a designer minivan?
    This should be a utilitarian vehicle.

    A lot of room and luxury, but the transmission doesn't shift smoothly, from what I read, and the mpg is dismal.
    In addition the rear doors are enormous and heavy so you can imagine what kind of damage the kids in the back will do to any vehicle unfortunate enough to be parked next to one.

    All of the above translates into one of the best leasing deals to be had today.
    You can lease this $58k minivan (R350) for only around $500 per month for 27 months or buy it for an astonishing (or should I say, embarrassing) $7000 below invoice for around $47k.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    and I see where you didn't mean that. You must have been talking about an individual testing, not the rags.

    Didn't mean what? Suddenly you're talking French and I'm talkin' Russian.

    ;-)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    So now when I pay Lexus a compliment, I'm worried. The IS has been a great success, there you have it. But to say it's going to be the car that kills the 3-Series is absolutely pathetic. Sales or no sales, the car WILL NOT outsell the 3. You can quote me on that. That sounds like Infiniti when they introduced the G35 and said that "BMW should afraid, very afraid." Well a host of quality issues and a staid interior stopped that fanfare.

    Then the new TL came, and altho a great performer, the transmissions drives the wrong wheels. The Caddy CTS was and is a close match, but the car has fallen off considerably from '02. The '08 CTS should correct all of it's shortcomings....

    Now we have the IS. A strikingly handsome ride with the sprint action of Jesse Owens, if not the moves of Barry Sanders. For '07, the VDIM is defeatable(altho not completely, says Lexus, it still intervenes if things get to frisky), this should make the car more tossable like the cars in it's class. The car is GOOD, but not 3-Series GREAT.......
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