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Comments
Yeah. Someone here posted that the IS has better straight line motion than the 3 Series.
Hey, sooner or later, ya gotta turn the wheels!
I would agree, provided that one ends "anytime soon" to the end of the sentence.
The 3 does what it does very well. Moreover, it is entrenched in its position, and in people's minds. A competitor merely matching the 3 in capabilities isn't going to outsell it.
But IF someone can produce something just a bit better, in overall handling/performance and/or reliabililty and/or styling, then over a 5-10 year timeframe, the 3 can be surpassed in unit sales, imho.
The 3 has survived all this time by delivering what it's customers want. The car was long the pinnacle of poor reliablilty, yet they bought the cars continually in droves. The car's redo in '00 erased most problems and thus have infused reassurance with it's customer base, and this is why the 3 only has a 4 day lot time.....
Nobody else will do it. BMW owns the ELLPS segment.
You can take that to the bank.
If you would read my last post, it clearly stated that the IS is BMW's greatest challenge yet. That's all.
I have tempered enthusiasm for the IS. I still want to see the convertible due next Summer, and the manual tranny for the 350.
The Next G35 is not to be overlooked either!
When the IS is fully realized, and the G35 reinvented, they should both be putting out 75k units, which will be similar to competing units from BMW. The other 15 variants will give the 3 higher total numbers, doh.
If you are going to TRY and quote me, at least copy and paste, to avoid such errors in the future. :sick:
Thank You.
DrFill
BMW may own the segment now, but they may not always.
Most 3 Series reviewers state the current 3 Series is better than ever. The car continue to evolve.
They just have to keep Bangle away from those tail lights.
All auto companies are always improving their products. But the rate of improvement can vary, and there is NO assurance that BMW's rate of improvement will always equal or exceed the competition's.
Before Lexus introduced the RX, didn't it look like the ML dominated its segment?
Didn't MB probably think at one time (like 1988) that it had nothing to fear in the S segment?
Didn't Cadillac at one time dominate some of its segments?
BMW and the 3 are not invincible. Maybe the 3 will be at the top of the heap 10 years from now. Or maybe not.
If I'm wrong, I will admit it right here, 10 years from now.
Should be right around that time Tagman trades in his Lotus.
Whatever happened to your praising Bangle for boldly going where no one has gone?
I haven’t criticized BMW styling in a while. I’m thinking about stoking up a few of my rants.
My fellow BMW fan I respect your opinions but the real question is what will the 3 evolve into?
In order to discover where it is going you will have to look at where BMW's R & D $$$ are going. The link below is a good indicator where not only the BMW 3 series is going but where the entire BMW productline is going:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2060804.010/country/gcf/bmw/bmw-late- - - - st-driver-assistance-r-d-developments
Their R & D is focused on "Driver Assistance Technologies"?
Ain't that a hoot!
The Ultimate Driving Machine is becoming the Ultimate Rider's Machine with minimal involvement from the driver.
If this is the future of the BMW 3 then I can assure you the future 3 will not be in my garage.
Based on my unbiased opinion the 5 series Touring wagon is the best looking wagon on this planet. And ofcourse the second best looking wagon is the 3 series Touring.
Only Bangle can make a wagon look this sexy.
Excellent question, isn't it? And what will the Lexus IS evolve into? More power? Better handling?
Oh, I'm sure no one here thinks that the IS can be any threat to the mighty BMW, and so far I would agree that it isn't much of one, but my crystal ball tells me that the future will be different, and Lexus will step on BMW territory.
When the LS first came out, who would have thought that it could possibly impact the almighty S-Class the way it did and does?
I am absolutely a Eurocar fan, but I have tremendous respect for the marketing capabilities of Lexus in this country. The Lexus/Mercedes lesson is one for the history books . . . we either learn from it or we don't.
TagMan
I have written many times that I find his work on the 3 Series tail lights hideous.
This is fine for Lexus and MB, but would be a total shame if BMW caves.
Competition is a good thing me thinks.... :P
I don't know about that. I believe the Audi A6 Avant looks pretty sexy!
Not that they will.
Unless Porsche decides to enter the ELLPS arena.
Other folks around here listed reasons why they won't.
How far do you take the station wagon (Without calling it a station wagon)?
I would put more R&D into a super minivan, which Americans seem more partial to, than a super station wagon, which Americans think of a relics that are remembered for wood paneling and seats that face backwards.
The RX doesn't need to change, or adjust to any other vehicle, particularly the R-Class.
What Lexus should do is make a bigger RX, like the HPX concept. The next Infiniti FX will only get bigger, and the SRX is already that size.
Truck chassis are in decline, and Lexus has a nice bullet still in their holster! :shades:
I'd say Lexus knows what their doing with the RX. Anyone care to disagree?
DrFill
1.) Range Rover Sport HSE - can be out-accelerated by a Toyota Highlander. Even in Supercharged guise the Range Rover Sport only matches the Highlander, 0-60 mph in 7.2sec
2.) Mercedes CLS - it has less room than the E-class the same engines and similar specifications yet costs $10,000 more
3.) Audi A8 - gets notice from fanatics about its interior design, but who cares? it is a such a slow seller
4.) Maybach [short and long wheel base] - very slow seller compared to Rolls Royce and Bentley
5.) Lexus GS450Hybrid - a relatively large car that's a poor fit for families because it has the trunk space of a small convertible
6.) BMW Mini - rather pricey compared to Subaru WRX, Saab 9 2-X, Audi A3 etc.
Source: Autospies.com
I'm not going to argue much, except in favor of the Mini, with the features, sport, and appeal of a BMW, for the price of a Camry.
Small, but knows where the party's at! :shades:
DrFill
And yes, from what I've read/heard, the vaunted G35 will definetely march foward towards the crown even farther. BUT
One can't forget the '08 A4(on sale mid year next year), the car that BMW is anxiously awaiting in Germany at the end of this year. For the first time ever, the quattro AWD will be powering the rear wheels 100% of the time until an impending slip occurs, and it will only take 0.05 of a millisecond to send torque forward. The car will also for the first time have it's engine mounted completely behind the axle line, similar to what Nissan does for the FM platform, however Audi's enigines will sit much lower in the bay creating an ideal center of gravity and near 50/50 weight distribution.
With the 3.2 direct-injected engine serving as the new base engine(no more 2.0T for US A4's), creating 305hp in the process, it looks to be an interesting year for Audi's best selling car in the US.
BMW knows this and released a statement acknowledging that "our fellow native makers have given us some serious thought here recently in how we direct our attention to our line of automobiles..: It seems that Munich shall not be only worried about the Japanese comp, much more worried about what's going down in the land of Beer. And with the provacative C-Class to bow next year, this class is shaping up to be the best premium class hands down with every maker having new product........
The number one car, drum roll please: THE LS430.
Long a stable of "purported" reliablility, supposed ok quality, and hushed transport. Outside of that, WHO CARES? Oh the US buyer that purchases it because of it's warehouse prices!
You and "autospies" have nothing more to do but conjure up a uncompelling list of cars that do what they were designed to do very well, unlike one car I know that sells more than what it promises to deliver....
I know the A8 shot was aimed at me. But you know I will defend it at all costs, including responding to all of your ridiculous rhetic.
The Porsche 911 S is better than Splenda . . . so sweet and without the nasties. Solid, smooth, willing to please, and it does so in spades. Everything is right where it should be and thus it is instinctual to drive it well.
Then, I went on my mission to the Lotus dealer. Gorgeous facility with such beautiful cars on display. I was surrounded by Lamborghinis, Bentleys, Jaguars, Land Rovers, and of course the Lotus vehicles.
I was greeted by the Lotus manager and the discovery process unfolded. I noticed that the Lotus Elise traps your eyes in so many ways, as there is a lot going on with the body curves, grills, and vents. Very dramatic appearance and small.
It's a race car that got stuck in a mad scientist's shrinking machine, but then the "less is more" starts to kick in . . . enough to want to sit inside. Getting inside the Lotus Elise required specific instructions from the manager, and thank goodness I listened. Anything other than the correct way to get in simply will not work and will result in either injury or embarrasment.
Once inside, it is instantly obvious that this is not any typical sports car. I was in a cockpit of a car that had a purpose. A unique driving (racing) machine, no doubt.
So . . . I needed to know. I wasted little time. Let's drive it.
But first I had to exit the vehicle we were in and go to the demo vehicle. Getting out of the Elise is even more difficult than getting in. There is, quite frankly, no graceful way to exit this car, without practice, and even then I doubt it would ever be easy.
Anyway, the manager pulled the demo out of the facility, and the very second we were on the street, people were staring at us. After a few blocks, the manager pulled over into a little parking area, and we traded places (with effort). A guy that was passing by (tourist, I think) tapped on the window, asking if he could snap some pictures of the solar yellow Elise. The manager said to get used to that kind of attention.
I adjusted the mirrors, and off we went. The car drove like the featherweight champion of the world. Absolute brute power in such a small package. The sound of the engine is always wonderful, but changes dramatically as the rpm's reach 6K and above . . . unleashing a wonderful sound of serious business unlike anything I've experienced before.
My adrenaline was pumping as I pushed the pedal to the metal through the first 3 gears, and let back before ever reaching 4th, 5th or 6th. Then I shifted normally in all 6 gears to discover that the torque is missing where the Porshce has all you need at those lower rpm's. So, this Lotus (Toyota) engine needs to spin in order to express itself, and give it enough rpm's and it goes with a fury. The car handles as though it is hard wired directly to the driver's brain . . . just think it and it does it . . . perfectly.
I had so much freaking fun that the manager let me drive the demo for quite some good part of the afternoon. So much so that I'll be returning there tomorrow to test the limited edition car number 25 "Sport" Elise first thing in the morning . . . right after my Starbucks.
Bottom line? . . . There can be no reason to ever get this car except to have a bunch of fun driving. It is simply not normal transportation. A Porsche is tons of fun, but is more normal, and practical, IMO. The Lotus Elise is almost constant adrenaline and attention from the driver to the road and attention from bystanders to the car.
FUN. It's true. Yes, it really is. Tomorrow can not come too soon.
Will I buy? I'll let you know tomorrow.
TagMan
BTW: Did they have any Exiges there? These cars are very difficult to find, with only 3 on the east coast, two of which are, of course, in Miami.
Yes, one.
There is also one at another dealer 30 minutes south.
TagMan
Whether they go ahead and build it is another matter. With the R-Class selling as poorly as it is, and then only with massive incentives, I imagine the Lexus bean-counters aren't really keen on the idea.
Plenty of them around the NY area. No one wants AWD in So Cal.
I'm very interested in the new 3-series coupe. Some criticism has the butt looking like an old Taurus but that's fine with me compared with the ugliness they've been dabbling with. The current sedan looks like a prune. The new coupe has more of the low-slung reserve that I expect from a BMW.
I can't believe the 5-series is in its fourth year. It won't be long now before we see the next generation which may come earlier than the 7-year cycle change. Can't wait until the fruit cart is history. These are the current BMWs I would buy:
3-coupe
6-coupe
750i or 750Li
X3
X3 is the best-handling SUV on earth bar none.
Yep, while the cats are away the mice will play. Oac is funny.
Here, let's ogle the awesome new 3-series coupe, the next class leader, the despot: ;-)
http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/futurevehicles/new3coupe?source=3COUFMA
Trouble worth it? Heck, my wife and kids give me tons of trouble, but all well worth it! I don't anticipate too much trouble from the Lotus, if I buy it, given its Toyota powerplant .
Speaking of wifey's blessing, I'm dragging her with me, hopefully, later this morning for my second round. If she can get in and out of the car, all should be good. If not, she's gonna want to know what "unecessary thing she can get, too."
She'll probably want an LS for herself, don't you think, oac? After all, what else could she possibly want?
Hope all your business meetings go well, my friend.
TagMan
The 3 coupe is nice, but it's going to be facing brutal competition in the states from the G35 coupe, which like last time, is going to be faster, sleeker, and sportier than the sedan.
This is where BMW really shines and is truly in a class by themselves-the ELLPC segment.
I'm looking for a repeat of what the BMW 5 Series has done to the Infiniti M. Only a bit more lopsided in favor of BMW.
TagMan
But LG seems to think the new G35 Coupe will be a serious threat to the 335i Coupe in the USA.
Sorry, LG-I just don't see it happening.
I can hardly wait for September to test drive that twin-turboed little devil!
Could very well be my next vehicle.
Yeah. I know. I say that about everything.
Me too. I myself would love to see a new twin turbo touring. I think it should be due to happen soon, though probably not soon enough. This maybe a misperception but sometimes I feel my new 530xi touring is slower than my old 99 323i. The extra weight is a real acceleration killer.
Can't wait until the fruit cart is history.
I always knew in what BMW faction you belonged to and it certainly is not the Bangle faction. Having said that what do you think would happen to BMW design if it continued introducing cars with no major design changes? IMO BMW would share the same fate as Jaguar in which customers would become quite vocal in their complaints about too subtle sytle changes.
Some people may not like the new bling look of the S Class or the Bangle influences on Toyota/Lexus designs but at least these style changes gives the perception of novelty among MB and Lexus buyers.
Let's see now . . . maybe an '07 Lexus LS?
I may drive to a Lexus dealer to inspect one and sit in it, but my true intention will be to mooch some free designer coffee-served with milk specially obtained from Angus cows, I'm sure.
But, that's as far as it goes.
Have to seriously check out the 335i. BMW seems to have eliminated turbo-lag.
So when folks around here write that BMW is stagnating- resting on its laurels, I have to laugh!
Folks, gimmee a break!
That may very well be so! But as dhamilton pointed out I think Audi has better prospects in trespassing BMW territory. And let us not for the MB C class and Infiniti G.
I am not disagreeing with you but there seems to be a bizarre logic in this forum that goes something like this:
The new LS stole sales from MB, Cadillac, Lincoln and other marques since the early 90s. Therefore such and such a future auto from Lexus will do the same to every other competing model.
It is easy to over-rate one specific product of a company and glamorize that one achivement to the rest of the products offered by that same company. A good example of this is Google. Most people think Google will grow endlessely since everything it touches will have the same successful results as its search business. In reality almost everything Google touches other than search has been a flop. But still that perception of Google invincibility remains. Similarily everytime a new Lexus model (LS or non-LS) is introduced every Lexican here points out the initial success of the LS and predicts dangers for the MB S Class, dangers for the BMW 5 series from the GS and dangers for the 3 series from the IS. In fact this Lexus logic of invincibility is so prevalent in this forum that you would think that Lexus will soon monopolize the luxury auto segment in North America.(that would certainly be a good time for me to immigrate)
Protection Clause from future Lexican Attacks: With that Google example I am not implying that everything Lexus touches will be a flop other than the LS.
I take it then that you are suggesting that the LS is the only true success for Lexus? Because I don't see it that way.
I see the current IS as a hit in addition to the LS. I see huge SUV sales that must have been hurting SOMEONE.
The ES is no slouch. The SC and GS are a concern, but the SC will get replaced, and when it does, who knows? The GS is still a mystery to me. I think it can't compete well in that class, with BMW 5 out there.
But, all in all, I see more than just an LS, and I STILL think that the newest IS will spawn a new type of small sedan and coupe success for Lexus.
I agree the 3-series is awesome, but so is the S-Class. Vulnerable?
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I appreciate you pointed out the above and let me assure that is not at all what I am saying. After consulting with my team of lawyers I have edited my prior clause to be read as the following:
Protection Clause from future Lexican or neutral GermanCarFan Attacks: With that Google example I am not implying that everything Lexus touches will be a flop other than the LS.
You are funny. So sorry if I didn't understand.
TagMan
Since leasing is no bargain, I would pay cash for it (yes-I would try and scrape up a few spare schekels, somehow) if I liked it, which is highly doubtful. But I doubt if Lexus would offer an SE for the LS anyhow.
By the way, that stuff you are currently drinking:
Obviously, it is very effective in making you appear quite foolish.
[The Infiniti service has been A plus by the way.]
I think, [In my opinion, and any other disclaimer I can think of to not offend anyone] that Infiniti has a way to go to equal the build quality of the Germans, and even Lexus. The interiors don't wear to well over time, and the doors don't quite have that satisfying chunk when closing like every Audi I've ever been in. Just my 2 cents.
FWIW, Len I hope you come back, I know I can be a pretty sarcastic sob. If I had anything to do with your departure I apologize. I think this forum is so fun because everyone is so passionate. The sparks flying are the chemistry that keep me coming back.
I don't even remember the year exactly but it was around 87 or 88 when I became the proud owner of a brand new Sterling automobile. The a/c quit on the way home from the dealer and things went downhill from there. Acutally is could have been a fine auto except for all the electrical glitches, etc. I still think the car was gorgeous (for its time) and it had a great engine and good responsive steering. It was just that nothing of an electrical nature would ever work. It was truly a maddening vehicle to own
To show you how desperate I became, I traded it in on a 1990 Mercedes 190!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I also see that you are becoming obsessed with my drinking habits! After a few sips of good single malt scotch, my IQ goes up about 20 points!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Sort of conflicts with their image of the vehicle, I guess.
They used to offer a "Euro-Tuned Suspension", but I have never heard of anybody actually driving one in this form.
As far as I know, it has only been available in the back of some brochure.
What is most exciting is that the Z29 lightweight engineering will later be found in production BMWs. This is the kind of engineering I love and look forward to owning a weight-watcher's version of either the M3 Touring or a twin turbo BMW 5 Series wagon. In fact a feather-light fuel efficient 535 turbodiesel doesnt sound too bad either.
Most reviewers agree with that, and I know that I certainly do. Doc, excluded, of course.
S is THE benchmark at this point in time.
TagMan