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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    I readily admit that the S is the Benchmark.

    But, as you seem to understand yourself, a major qualiifier needs to be added.

    I sincerely question the duration of that statement.

    Hemi

    So now if the LS sells 30k in 2000, unless it sells close to 60k in 2001, it's not a good a redesign? I'm not following you.

    Since Lexus is quite proud of the Next LS, and is showing it off to all concerned, a quantum leap in sales, and a sag in current LS sales, may yield the increase of which you speak.

    You can set the bar as high as you want. You know the LS will clear it with ease! ;)

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    DrFill,

    first and foremost let us make sure we are talking about the correct benchmarks.

    Tagman and Hemi are talking about the benchmark the S Class sets in terms of of the car itself when compared to other models.

    While the benchmark you are talking about is based on sales $$$. Sales benchmarks say little about a car as movie box office sales say little about a film.

    An independent thinker will not be swayed into liking a movie or a car just because of how much $$$ they raise.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Posts that are focused on other members are not appropriate and are being deleted.

    Please stick to the cars and not your opinions of other posters.

    Thank you.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    It was my understanding that Lexus sold 49,000 LS' in 2000, not the 30k you quote.

    And yes the bar has been set quite high nowadays by the ubiquitous S-Class. But with better suspenders and a decent set of all-seasons, it should at the most meet the bar.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I have thought that way about Infiniti's since the new gen cars start appearing starting with current Q45. This car is missing the polish cream the '97-'01 models had. Those cars were very sound and tight.

    The same for most of the other cars in it's class. THe QX56 is by far and away the most "detached" SUV in it's class. At 50k, there is no reason for the shortcomings of this ride. Hopefully the new G's are improved over the predecessors. But I must admit, Infiniti must've sent the M to finishing school as this is the best car in terms of fit/finish in the line-up. I think it is their best offering hands down....

    But one thing I can say about the Infiniti's: Boy are they reliable.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Alright Houdini, I say this with a grain of salt. My worst HELM was my '87 Audi 5000 S. This car was during the dark days of Germany, and this one beared the grunt of the gloom.

    Two days after having the car, the ECM goes out. Got it fixed, a month later, the power steering goes. Then the "sudden acceleration", and so forth....

    What a difference 20 years make. My A8L W12 has been a model of absolute quality and reliability. Not so much as a hiccup in this car with 14k miles on it. German engineering had dark days indeed, but thankfully, looking at the renaissance of MB, BMW, Porsche, and Audi, those days are over.....
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ah-h '87. BMW gave us the first M6 and Porsche had the 3.2 911 and 930 with magnanimous whale's tail. You had to workout on a leg machine to drive those Porsches. Even today I'll take a 930 cab.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    My post referred to the "Benchmark" vehicle, not sales "Benchmark". Nor did I imply sales as a criterion.

    If you are going to interpret for me, try to do it accurately.

    Tag

    I was not quoting sales numbers for the post. It was an example to illustrate my point.

    My posts aren't this hard to understand. They can't be! :mad:

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The 3 coupe is nice, but it's going to be facing brutal competition in the states from the G35 coupe, which like last time, is going to be faster, sleeker, and sportier than the sedan.

    I don’t know about brutal competition but you know I like the G coupe concept—a handsome piece of work—one of the best lookers IMO. I sure hope it comes unbotched.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …what do you think would happen to BMW design if it continued introducing cars with no major design changes? IMO BMW would share the same fate as Jaguar in which customers would become quite vocal in their complaints about too subtle sytle changes.

    I always point to Porsche when anyone asks that type of question. The 911 basically looks the same as it did 40 years ago. I’d like the same for Jaguar but they are a different problem. I think Ford will be the death of Jag, AM and Volvo unless they sell them off to worthy concerns. Also, Jag was always plagued by reliability issues so in the hands of Ford the market perception just gets worse.

    I don’t think BMW needed radical styling change. The only thing the new styles did was trumpet “new model”. They could have done the same thing with an evolutionary approach just as Porsche does. Porsche actually went backward with the exterior styling of the 997 in response to complaints about 996, even though they did step up the interior in terms of material quality.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag

    I was not quoting sales numbers for the post. It was an example to illustrate my point.

    My posts aren't this hard to understand. They can't be!

    Doc,

    You've got someone else's post confused as mine. I don't know what you are talking about . . . I never replied anything about sales numbers . . . re-check, my friend.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It was FUN driving home in that new Lotus Elise. I did opt for the loaded "Sport Elise". Turns out the car is number 5 (of 50). I had originally thought it was number 25. It makes absolutely no difference, however. The only drawback . . . rather harsh on very rough roads. Avoid them when possible. Otherwise, tons of excitement.

    My little guy thinks it's a real-life Hot-Wheels race car. In some ways he's probably right.

    Anyway, I've got a hungry family here. I'll chime in later . . . and start talking HELMS again. ;)

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Congratulations, that's awesome!
  • shrinkrapshrinkrap Member Posts: 17
    I am new to this board and hopefully will not be asking too naive a question. I am in the market for an AWD luxury sedan and today did the 2nd test-drive of an Audi A8L. Great driving car, and I sense that the Quattro system is technologically superior to the 4MATIC system of the M-B.

    However, my dilemma is A8L vs M-B S550 4MATIC (which I realize isn't on the road yet). I like the styling of the M-B better, and after having driven a flawless S430 for 5 years, I feel as though I am being a traitor jumping to the Audi side.

    Any comments? I believe that the Audi is a better car for the money - the A8L being about $12K cheaper than the comparable M-B - and has a sportier feel on the road. What are the impressions of others of you?

    shrinkrap
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Congrats!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Yes, '87 shaped to be an imaginery year for the Germans. IT also proved to be a great year for the Big 3 American, fast forward to 2007, and well.......

    BTW: I almost bought an M6 in '87. But with the 58k sticker and so-so fun factor, it just proved to be a waste. So I took the plunge on one of the greatest American cars ever built: Buick GranNatitional. This wasn't granny's Buick my friend. If you wanted to go fast and look good doing it, this was the ride of '87(save for the fun I-ROC Z and Corvette)...
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Why don't you wait for the ultimate AWD luxury sedan, the LS600hL? It will be available in the spring of 2007.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    READ: Before the end of the decade, without a shot of goodness into Jaguar, the brand will be in jeopardy of dying out. With the new XK comes worry. Don't get me wrong, aside from the Taurus-esque grill detail, the car is strikingly beautiful. "BUT" With the likes of the SL, XLR, and SC as your competition, why bring the newest car to the party with the weakest engine? And the new XKR won't stir any souls as the 400hp mill is only 18hp higher than the MB unit. It just don't have anything that screams I'm different from everyone else, ah but the interior is oh so well crafted, and I'm an interior nut, this one looks like Audi design, if not Audi grade...

    I've related several times that Jag will have to eventually evolve the styling of the XJ. The car, while very capable, isn't as exciting as it's Euro peers. The car has current technology and a very atheletic stride to it, but in this class, styling is what sets the tone with many buyers(German, American, and Japanese alike), and the XJ looks staid in comparison. The look is too reminescent of the previous car. Only we car nuts can decipher the difference.

    Add in the underwhelming X-Type and tired S-Type only adds to the disaster. A complete model range line-up needs to effect soon, with the exception being the XK. Development of a higher performing AJ-V8 with 400-hp out of the box as standard would definetely set the tone for this car. What's wrong with using the awesome new Aston 4.3L V8 with 380hp on tap??

    Speaking of Aston, even with new model designations and better quality, there is still something missing in this low-pro/high-dollar maker. Once the stable of all things exclusive, the brand has been "FORDified". The brands quality has taken a step backward, albeit reliability has been taken way up considerably....

    And yes, Porsche addressed it's customer base swiftly with the 997 V. 996. The car has went back to the perfect-round eye vs. the new and unwanted egg-eye. It actually looks cleaner and simpler.... Thanks Porsche for listening.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You face the same exact dilemma that I faced when shopping for my next AWD ride, I too tested the S500 4-Matic, and while not quite as sure footed as the Quattro, it did get the job done right. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but here in NY, the Quattro system proved to be better than some big honkin'4WD SUV's.

    I chose my A8 over the Benz because of Audi's complete blend of performance and luxury. No other car at the time(Fall-'05) offered what the W12 did. No car offered this much power in AWD, and they still don't.

    But don't get me wrong. I'm a MB fanatic also, having owned two in the last 5 years. The first a magnificently reliable S500, and the second a stupid fast S65 AMG, which I regretedly sold to pursue my A8L W12.

    For what it's worth, the S550 4-Matic will be the closest thing in matching Audi's Quattro AWD. It retains the 40/60 split like on the quattro, but does without a LSD, a crucial piece in the mountain-goat-like surefootedness of the A8.

    And I must admit , Lexus has the LS600hL coming out, but from what Lexus released, the car will be 100% RWD until it feels the need for AWD. These systems have proved twitchy on ice covered roads and useless in most situations that you feel you need the AWD....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Say it ain't so, what is BMW doing. The Z29, with all of it's unique weight-saving techniques, while good, the look is actually, dare I say, worst that Bangle??????...........
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    I see plenty of A8L in SoCal. So, again more bias than fact.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I do agree appearance-wise the Z29 is more of a beast than a beauty.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I don’t think BMW needed radical styling change.

    Interestly your description fits one part of BMW and that is called the MINI.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And the new XKR won't stir any souls as the 400hp mill is only 18hp higher than the MB unit. It just don't have anything that screams I'm different from everyone else, ah but the interior is oh so well crafted, and I'm an interior nut, this one looks like Audi design, if not Audi grade...

    The XK was in the same showroom today, and it is a beautiful car, particularly considering the exceptional price. What comes that close for the same money?

    I've related several times that Jag will have to eventually evolve the styling of the XJ. The car, while very capable, isn't as exciting as it's Euro peers. The car has current technology and a very atheletic stride to it, but in this class, styling is what sets the tone with many buyers(German, American, and Japanese alike), and the XJ looks staid in comparison. The look is too reminescent of the previous car. Only we car nuts can decipher the difference.

    The XJ is a classic, and the new generation aluminum Vanden Plas is a steal, but the design mistake was not angling the front end to be a tad more like Bentley, IMO. The interior is gorgeous as well, but a little more "techi" look without sacrificing its luxurious and sumptuous look and feel would have been the answer, IMO. Amazing class-leading fuel economy for a car so large and nimble. With the recent high quality and reliability, I love Jags, even as they are, but I would love to see the necessary improvements made before it is too late. The loss of Jaguar would be a tragedy, IMO.

    And yes, Porsche addressed it's customer base swiftly with the 997 V. 996. The car has went back to the perfect-round eye vs. the new and unwanted egg-eye. It actually looks cleaner and simpler.... Thanks Porsche for listening.

    Porsche removed the gorgeous, subtle and sexy air intake (is the term cowl?) at the base of the windshield with the new generation 911. It was a distinguishing trademark of 911 and it should have stayed to distinguish the 911's from the Boxsters. I miss it. (Probably got the ax as a result of a wind tunnel test, darn it.) The rear lights had a nice subtle connecting wrap in the previous generation that also should have been retained to distinguish the 911 from the Boxster, IMO. Regrdless, I totally agree with you that the headlights are an improvement.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Eliminating turbo lag is one of those things that get pronounced numerous times but never quite done. Turbo impeller has mass, therefore moment of inertia, to be overcome when spooled up. One can reduce turbo lag but never eliminate it. When an industry rag tells you a manufacturer has eliminated turbo lag, you can bet your bottom dollar that when the next product comes out without turbo, the same rag will completely trash the previous (current) generation with turbo as a piece of crap with intolerable turbo lag . . . the same cycle happend numerous times in the huckster's industry of drug/performance car pushing.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I don't really think Aston Martin and Volvo are in trouble right now. Aston makes more beautiful, popular cars than ever, and Volvo is doing great with the new C70 and the XC90 has been a massive success. Jaguar and Mercury are the companies pulling Ford down right now. It's all they can do to make a profit.

    However, you forgot Land Rover, which is doing commendably- Range Rover and RR Sport are flying off the lots as usual, and LR3 has been a hit. Their only flop in the US was the Freelander, which has been discontinued, to make way for the LR2.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. True. I should have said BMW claims to have reduced turbo lag greatly.
    They cannot have entirely eliminated it.
    Every review I read indicated a slight turbo lag was present.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Every review I read indicated a slight turbo lag was present

    The BMW inline 6 in itself is a marvel and this twin turbo version is only going to make it better. I will gladly suffer the slight turbo lag of BMW's twin turbo inline 6 especially when you compare this gem of an engine with other 6 cylinders.

    Cant wait to test drive one!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Actually hp and brightness, they can fully eliminate lag. There is a such thing as variable-vane geometry. This method actually spools up one turbo faster than the other, giving the sensation of a normally-aspirated car. It works even better in a single turbo engine. I tested the new 911 Turbo last week, and judging from the previous 996, this car has completely ruled it out.

    The old car for instance, would suffer in the 2-3k rpms, where it really counts the most. This car spools up so fast that you forget it's actually a turbo.

    The German makers have been doing this for a couple of years now, starting with the Audi/VW 2.0T 4-cylinder engine. Combined with it's direct-injection, it gives this littlest 4-cyl the power of a V6 with awesome fuel economy.

    BMW has promised to eliminate turbo lag on it's first time in a long time turbocharged car. I don't think they'll make such an assumption if they couldn't live up to it......
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You're right, there is no other car in the XK range that delivers what it can at it's price. The SC is there, but come on, that isn't a contest.

    But have you looked at the XK's sticker with some mild options? This thing can get down right pricey, passing the XLR on up to the $90k mark only set by the trendsettin SL and Porsche Cab.

    See we are on the same page about Jag. The company still has that certain verve to it that only needs some voom to show the marketplace "that hey, were still here", even tho our parent company closed one of the most historic factories in the world where we were built, Browns Lane...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    We, the people of all things fun and exciting, would like to take the time out to thank the people of this great planet that we call Earth, for giving us confidence that we can continue to offer products that absolutely no company can copy or alter.

    While our competition has used some of out best concepts, only we can fully deliver the product. Some have even went so far as to copy one of the supposed hated (Bangle) styling cues on the market today. This company knows who it is, once the stable of all things conservative, has adapted our Bangle-Butt and kink in the quarter glass of the rear door. Our styling was the laughing stock of the turn of the century, now everyone uses it?? My how a couple years makes a difference..

    Team Europe urges you to stick with the original recipe makers, the ones who actually invented the automobile, the ones who invented the term performance luxury, the ones who invented the most capable AWD and most scrumptous quality money can buy. This is why Team Europe will never leave you astray. We will never sell to our older crowd a car so easy to operate then turn it into a car that makes our i-Drive look like an etch-a-sketch..

    Our slogan holds truths in it: Team Europe- The people of many choices....
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I see plenty of A8L in SoCal. So, again more bias than fact.

    A-ha! That counters Oac's claim. Something's rotten in Denmark!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I don't really think Aston Martin and Volvo are in trouble right now.

    Give it some time. ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Slight turbo lag or none, I will be at my BMW Dealer in September to drive the 335i coupe.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    NYT yesterday said Japanese authorities are investigating 3 Toyota officials for CRIMINAL violations for concealing vehicle defects for the last EIGHT years! No wonder they seemingly had such a stellar record! They knew it all along, and did nothing about it. Mitsu also had Tokyo on their criminal tail before their freefall. I'm not suggesting such a fate for Toyota.

    NYT says many of these quality problems apply to Lexus and that baby of the green movement, the Prius.

    The article had an amazing statistic. Toyota has a 40% share of the domestic market, and had 1.9 MILLION recalls in 2005. Nissan and Honda both had about 200,000 recalls in the same year. It didn't say, but I think both companies had half the domestic share of Toyota, roughly 20%. That means a domestic Toyota is FIVE times more likely to be recalled than a domestic Nissan or Honda. Now it's possible both companies are also concealing their defects, a la Toyota. But there's no evidence of that yet.

    Toyota is trying to address its recent horrendous recall record. But the auto experts here and Japan don't think the problem is going away soon. Their reasoning: the recalls are for cars already sold, some for as along as 10 years ago, there's nothing Toyota can do about them now.

    Another interesting thing: Toyota's problems come mostly from design flaws, unlike Nissan's problems, which came mostly from that brand new manufacturing plant.

    Another thing I predict: from now on authorities and consumers worldwide won't give anymore Toyota the benefit of the doubt regarding recalls, driving them up further.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sounds like the beginning of the end for Toyota/Lexus domination.

    Everything is going according to plan:

    The Hyundai Sonata will be the best-selling car in America by December, 2008.

    How sweet it is!!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    But LG seems to think the new G35 Coupe will be a serious threat to the 335i Coupe in the USA.

    Sorry, LG-I just don't see it happening.

    Oh no? BMW sold 72 330Cis in July, and 256 325Cis. Infiniti sold 2,090 G35 coupes. Infiniti is no threat, eh? You can whine that the BMW coupe is end-of-life, but so is the G. July 2005 sales for BMW 325Ci, 328. 330i, 220. July 2005 Infiniti G35 coupe sales, 2,515.

    At least in the US, Infiniti has hurt BMW rather badly in the sales department, wouldnt you say Tag?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    We'll just have to wait for the numbers.

    A twin-turbo 335i coupe sounds rather irresistible, don't you think?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    At least in the US, Infiniti has hurt BMW rather badly in the sales department, wouldnt you say Tag?

    Refer to my brief post 17666.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A twin-turbo 335i coupe sounds rather irresistible, don't you think?

    It does sound like a great car, don't get me wrong. I just dont think it will be outselling the G35. Infiniti sells almost as many coupes as sedans. The 3 series may be the benchmark, but the segment is ruled by the TL and G in terms of sales numbers.

    The new turbo engine will help them to at least match if not outrun the new G and the IS350, but I hope they are able to keep that signature BMW turbine smooth power delivery. I've driven plenty of turbo\AT cars, and most of the time I haven't been impressed. In the Subaru Legacy 2.5GT for example, the autobox feels dim-witted and clumsy, and there's basically a choice of not enough power, or too much.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    No leasing deals from BMWFS on this one.

    Historically, BMW coupes have been assigned lower residuals and higher money factors than their corresponding sedans.

    Curses! :mad:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    No leasing deals from BMWFS on this one.

    Historically, BMW coupes have been assigned lower residuals and higher money factors than their corresponding sedans.

    Curses!

    When you say "Curses" are you suggesting that it would make a personal difference to you regarding a genuine buying decision? Or are you just blowin some air? :)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well if I drive one and I go nuts about it, and if my dealer knows someone who wants a 2005 545 in immaculate condition with low miles, it could happen. Probably not likely though, which in that case puts your second question in play as operationally correct. Heh! Heh!

    Well, it's off to see Taylor Hicks and the other Idols live.
    I'll bring my ear-plugs!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Is this discussion about high end marques??

    Why do we keep dragging all of these clearly no-where-NEAR-high-end marques into this conversation?? :confuse:
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IMHO, you are setting yourself for disappointment. Physics is physics . . . Porsche promised sportscar handling for Toureg (eh, Cayenne), but unless we are talking about decades old sports cars . . . likewise, turbo spindle has mass and moment of inertia . . . all that twisting of vanes will be in vain.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Exciting you getting the Lotus....I bet you fit like a foot in a shoe, but that gives the support..Did you get it at the `Collection`? tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Exciting you getting the Lotus....I bet you fit like a foot in a shoe, but that gives the support..Did you get it at the `Collection`?

    Not at the Collection. Yes, fits like a shoe . . . and is exciting, indeed. Can get intense.

    'nuff said for now . . . better stick to HELMS. :)

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    We shall see in due time.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Since we're talking HELMS again, I sat in a Bentley Continental Flying Spur also yesterday while at the dealership, and I just think that this car is so stately . . . and it definately feels like a man's car . . . nothing fluffy . . . just a wonderful combination of wood, leather and metal.

    The interior layout is exquisite looking. Nothing even remotely Japanese in terms of its overall execution. I wonder if the Doc could have appreciated it as much, given its European creation. (Just kidding, Doc.) As I exited the vehicle I felt that little sigh that some of us understand . . . "oh well".

    You know it is too bad the Maybach's price is so high in comparison. It makes the Bentley look like a bargain IMO.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The Mets have this one in hand so....

    All I can say, Tag, is at least we are talking about HELMs again!

    I'm sure LeBron appreciates his Bentley. :blush:

    DrFill
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