Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
No ifs ands or buts, its the truth. Wake-up merc1. Your delusion is not shared by anyone except hate-mongers on this thread. You have been ranting for past 6 years on this board and what did you accomplish with your propaganda??
Nothing, absolutely nothing! Did Daimler do better? Did mercedes do better? The germans can barely conceal their hatred for LS and ground breaking IS and they are fuming and rotting with jealousy. Had they been collaborative instead of combative, harmonious instead of acrimonious, spiritual instead of hateful they would have done much better.
Despite relentless propaganda machinery unleashed by europeans through their paid minions in US and europe, they have not been able conceal the truth.
LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM. More reliable, more gadgets, more fuel efficient, more luxurious and more elegant.
NOT!
A great day for the great "Company of Ideas".
This should be celebrated as a universal holiday.
Close the schools! Close the banks! Get the Detroit Lions to play football on that day!
Finally I have world-wide confirmation of what I have known for some time-the BMW 3 Series is a winner without peer!
Rubbish. Land Rover makes a better luxury SUV and Mercedes has sedans that will wipe the floor with anything Lexus makes. A LS430 clearly wasn't the best car that money could buy, only arguably the best within a certain price range. The LS460 and LS600h will do the same, provide a strong alternative to the German iron, but the best there is, not even. That would something from Germany with 12-cylinders.
Your delusion is not shared by anyone except hate-mongers on this thread. You have been ranting for past 6 years on this board and what did you accomplish with your propaganda??
Apparently yours about Lexus pricing their cars to match Mercedes, BMW or Audi isn't either. Not trying to "accomplish" anything, only correcting some very ill-thought notions about some of these luxury car brands from those who apparently don't know much about anything besides Lexus/Toyota.
Why don't you ask yourself what you've accomplished in the time you've been here, not much of anything but making your own fellow Lexus fans tire of your nonsense.
LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM.
Ladies and Gentlemen may I present to you the most utterly ridiculous statement yet posted here. I thought I had read it all when I read that the 760L and S600 weren't luxury cars, but no....this about the LS takes the cake. Congratulations!
M
And yet the distinguished judges who issued the recent World Car Awards completely passed Lexus over.
Go figure!
One exciting feature about this car is its drivetrain: An Audi contending LeMans 5.5 V12 diesel engine generating 700HP and 885LBs of torque.
LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM. More reliable, more gadgets, more fuel efficient, more luxurious and more elegant
LOL,
are you here to support Lexus ? Or are you here to ridicule the Lexus brand?
Hemi, just say No to Blow!
To update all who missed 3-4 years of mag covers in the mid-90's.....
From June 1993 on, Supra Turbo was untouchable, until 5 years later, when the Vette was redesigned, and even then, C&D said it was within a hair of it!
Don't even bring up the ZX, because I can name at least 3 comparisons where the Supra whupped it, crippling ZX resale values from then henseforth.
The RX-7 was close, but the Rotary proved unreliable, to this day. And the car in general was less than Toyota-esque in quality.
3000GT? Pretty car, dug the facelift in '95, but too heavy, and NO MITSU, then, now, EVER, had better quality than the Supra, or any Toyota! :mad:
Anything that can take 900+HP, with stock tranny and chassis, is a legendary stud! Secretariat! Period!
Now back to our regularly scheduled HELM shouting matches, already in progress......
DrFill
And now I must reveal a stunning bit of information, surprising to no one, Steve is team Europes best ally. Sorry to break your cover dude but, oh well, you kind of did it yourself with your last two posts.
I have missed your refreshing, penetrating posts.
I especially enjoy reading about your insights concerning the pride of Lexus, the LS.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'm here to elaborate on my experience today in a brand spankin' new Maserati QP GT today. Let me just say, WOW. I've long underestimated this car as I'm still not as forgiving as some with the past Maserati offerings of the past 20 years.
First thing, this cars interior, while not quite as lush as an A8 or S550, is very nice. The choice of interior materials and quality of them is about the best thing out of Italy behind a Ferrari Scallietti V12. The seats are super supportive and coddles without the restrained feel.
The exterior design, while not the best in the class, is stunning as pictures don't do it justice. And the performance: The Ferrari-sourced V8 is absolutely electrifying. The sound is so good you actually think you're behind the wheel of a F430.
The car takes curves like it's on rails, altho I didn't think it to be that much better than a 750i Sport. But what the car does do right is stop on a dime. 60-0 in 119 feet, a few shorter than a Boxster(none S) and only 4 feet longer than an Enzo.
So, my friend who owns the car asked: Dude, is it enough to pry you out of your W12? I replied, heck no. He went on to ask sense my wife and I sold our CLS55, will it take your mind off of the S8? I replied, are you crazy? Then finally, he asked will I rethink the soon-to-be-purchased S600? I told him that I would have to drive them back to back again as the S600 is just that good. The QP GT is a true "4 door Sports Car", while the S600 is the complete package. It goes fast, it turns on a dime, and looks damn good doing it.
Tag, Merc, hp, dewey, reality, even LG, what do you fellas think of the QP, particularly the GT? I respect your views on cars more so than most on here as they're unbiased, unlike some the "perfecto's".
(and then go right back outside and run it!)
I usually stay away from vehicles that are a bit above my price range.
However, from everything I have read, there is no doubt it is the best of the HELM vehicles discussed here in that it is the only vehicle that has successfully solved the luxury/performance dilemma, is great in both and makes no concessions.
Such a vehicle is wasted in the USA with its ridiculous speed limits, IMO, unless you have access to a great track and can really put it through its paces where I am sure you will feel quite exhilarated.
As one would expect, the mpg is quite dismal, but if you can afford this vehicle, I'm sure you don't have to ask about the gas.
As for me, I'm like Pat. I will just keep playing the lottery and dream!
I'm sure Merc, LG, Dewey and Tagman have a lot to say about this allegedly great vehicle.
Maserati Quattroporte 2005+
You might already know that I do not have the same negative view of the interior that some others do on this forum. The other day I posted the interior pic for all to see, and although I understand the criticisms, I really see and appreciate the beauty in it.
The exterior is wonderful.
I remember months ago I had asked the question of this forum to find the one single HELM that blended luxury and performance and the Q was one of the answers.
The tranny is reputed to shift a bit too harsh, but I understand that is about to be changed for the better.
I filled up at the gas station the other day right next to a gentlemen and his Q. I had to ask his take on the car. He LOVED his Q . . . its style and performance.
My take on the Q? I have intended to drive it for myself, as there is a dealer not too far, but I've put it off for one reason or another, most particularly of course because I'm not about to buy one right now, but a drive will be in the future. At this point, without the test drive I give the car high marks, but a test drive is worth a lot. I would predict that after such a drive I would like it even more.
TagMan
The transmission will lose it's Cambiocorsa moniker in favor of a , ironically, Audi-sourced 6-Speed autobox.
The interior has a unique flair to it. The choice of woods,plastics, and leathers are very appropiate for the 100k+ sticker, but closer scrutiny reveals the interior is not as well assembled as MB or Audi's. No huge biggie, what cars are?
The suspension was on the stiff side. But I like my suspensions like I like my drinks, STIFF, STIRRED and not SHAKEN. The car has that glued to the road feel of the 7, but admittedly, a 760i Sport will dance circles around it.
I did enjoy the stiff structure and rattle free interior. Absolutely no body roll. And I thought the Audi 4-Ring was huge on the front, that Maser Trident measures 11 inches, HUGE.
All in all, I really dig the car. It is truely what the blend of performance and luxury is really all about. The car has the perfect balance of a true sport sedan. But that is the problem: too sporty. My W12 and the S600 let's you choose between all sporty or all comfort, not so in QP, which is it's intended purpose anyway....
BTW: Thanks to all for your respective views on this awesome sports sedan. The info is really appreciated. What do any of you think of the S600? I think I know where Tag and Merc stands...........
If I had to choose between these two wonderful cars I would pick a QP. Is the QP too sporty? I wouldn't want it any other way. The purr of a V8 Ferrari engine is just too tempting.
Based on my interpretation of your statement above it does appear that you're leaning towards a car like the S600 which provides more of a balance between luxury and performance than a QP.
If I am mistaken and you do favor the sport of a QP, then have you ever considered putting your name on the waiting list for an Audi RS6? I know the QP and RS6 are at very different price levels but the RS6 does look like one great bang for the buck(at least relative to a QP)
Take Care!
What about some of the AMG models?
TagMan
I agree on the interiors. The German cars are, well German. The attention to the smallest details in the A8 and the new S is of course first rate. Every last piece has been calculated to absolute perfection. That, I think, is what German luxury is all about.
The inside of the QP is also incredibly luxurious, but in an Italian style. It's in the look, the feel, rather than ultimate build quality. The QP reminds me of the famous Italian speaker company, Sonus Faber. They use lute shaped cabinets, with hand matched wood panels, leather baffles, and silk wire grilles. To Sonus Faber, the look and feel is just as important as the sound quality.
The QP is not an engineering tour de force like the new S class, and it feels out of its element on bumpy city streets. What the QP does have though is soul inside and out, that you can't get from Jaguar, Mercedes, Audi, or BMW, and certainly not Lexus. It's not a well rounded car, but it is a fantastic Italian drivers car.
And yes, the soul of the QP is undoubtedly tops in the class.
I have removed a bunch of posts whose primary purpose was to snipe at one or more other discussion members. I'm going to continue to do so.
If you are not able to keep your post focused on the cars, understand that it's not going to live very long.
Thanks to those who have been trying to get this ship righted. We would all appreciate everyone else's cooperation.
:sick:
If I needed four doors that could perform like the QP then I might jump on it [finances permitting ] However, I would probably take a GT3RS for maybe a little more money and have an awesome track car. The S8 will scare the pants of any unsuspecting soul riding in the front, while those in back would have no idea.
My two cents, worth about two cents.
Basically, you are distinguishing between sport and luxury, road cars and living-room cars, and the levels at which they are achieved. Although I have not driven a Quattroporte I wouldn’t say you can’t get soul from a BMW. Their sport-tuned suspensions are impeccable. However a Quattroporte owner who also had an E39 M5 said he really likes the Q better.
I pine for said M5. Maybe I shouldn’t drive the Q lest I get ruined. I don’t know though, I’m not a fan of low low-end-torque and high redline in the heavyweights, not to mention the sequential gearbox. Plus, a slushbox contradicts that type of engine.
TagMan
Before I got this car, I had considered the A8L (SWB was not available at that time),BMW 7 and MB S Class.
The A8L was so long that it would not fit in my garage and I felt like a limo driver. I liked the ride but I was hesitant about Audi quality reputation and while I liked the interior, I was not in love with the exterior and it did not "feel" like a 70-80K car to me. The S Class stole my heart in terms of looks and image. But I had heard so many horror stories about electronics issues and with the lease price a good 400 per month more than the Lexus, I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. If the price would have been within 200 per month, I would have taken a shot that the quality issues would not apply to my car. But to stretch to 400 and be in the service shop was not my thing. The 7 series did not feel luxurious enough to me for the price and, not that it's a bad thing, but I "only" felt like I was driving a big 3 series, a car I had and loved.
So I went with the "value" play and to me it is a compromise. (another big reason was that I wanted blue tooth conductivity for hands free and the others didn't offer at the time). While the car has a fantastic build quality and everything works the right way every time, it is not an inspiring car to drive. I got it for comfort, reliability and convenience and it delivers very well on those. However it definitely lacks the driving dynamics of the Euros. It floats over the road and doesn't convey the feeling of control that one gets from the Euros mentioned above. Sometimes I find myself getting a bit weary because I feel disconnected from the drive. The seats are OK, like a nice couch but I prefer the firmer more supportive MB, BMW style.
I wish the steering was more connected and tighter even if just in highway driving not canyon carving.
Great radio, great electronics in the Lexus and one gets the idea that this car will continue to be fully functional and flawless for 200,000 miles or more. All said, I think my next car will be European. I love the new S Class and while I haven't driven one, I may be tempted especially if they bring a smaller engine at a lower price. To me,that is still the king of the road luxury car with the most solid feel and good compromise between lux and sport (The last S430 I did drive). I look at the S Class and I think that it's the pinnacle and there's no where else to go (I wouldn't drive a Maybach,Rolls etc even if I could ever afford one or won the lottery) Or maybe the BMW, if it improves with the next 7 with a turbo engine and fixing the electronic glitches.
Lexus is still a value based company in my opinion. Meaning that they must undercut the Europeans in price since they still lack in prestige even though it's amazing how far they've come in such a short time. Dollar for dollar being equal or close, I would have gone with the S Class last time around, but while my heart wanted the S, my brain convinced me to go with the LS which had more goodies for less money with the reliability aspect added in for good measure. I think it would be premature for them to price their cars equal or close to the Euros. I for one would love to see them take a stab at a sport version (like AMG or M) with firm seats, tighter steering etc) but I think that the marketing types and bean counters are looking at the typical US Lexus owner who wants the best Caddy, Town Car ever made. And it's that by a long shot. Do they want to alienate their core clients or dilute their approach for the sake a few guys like us that rant and rave on Edmunds! In the end, they are running a business to make a profit and to grab market share. As long as they are very successful I don't think we will see them change their strategy.
Pretty much confirms what I don't like about the LS-the disappointing disconnect from the involving driver's experience-due to the floaty suspension, the loose steering and the excessive body lean.
Glad you mentioned the seats. I did not find the LS driver's seat all that comfortable either-my 545's comfort seats are a big improvement, as of course is the driving excitement.
However, as you point out, the LS has its enthusiastic supporters here, and the fact that it has and will most likely continue to sell well, shows there are many people who enjoy the luxury of a limo experience at a HELM value price.
The LS is very good at what it provides.
Those of us who find it disappointing have plenty of other choices.
I have previously posted that Lexus should offer a serious sport package for the LS as Toyota does with the Camry SE.
Keep in mind relative quality has improved significantly, so if a Lexus vehicle is currently rated "excellent" and a BMW, "average"-that "average" would probably have been equivalent to "better than average", just a few years ago.
Whichever vehicle you decide on, Euro or Japanese, please come back and share your experience.
A wonderful post!
The fact that your post is a real-life testimonial adds credibility.
You have hit on many of the key differences between a Lexus LS and an alternative such as an S-class or BMW. Your experience reinforces the "safer", "value-conscious" approach to purchasing a Lexus, and that when doing so, there are attributes left behind . . . "driving dynamics", as you put it, is certainly one of them.
Yes, your heart wanted the S. . . . but your wallet would have been squeezed too tightly at the time. Hopefully next time your heart will prevail, and you will enjoy a wonderful S-class, BMW, or other Eurocar.
Thanks again for that post . . . it was like a nice piece of candy.
TagMan
I hope the new S Class is improved in that area.
That being said, I do agree that cars today are so much more reliable than in the past that the bar is raised so high to get a very good rating. This is a good thing for all of us. My 00 BMW 3 had 2 small annoyance fixed quickly and was flawless for 50K miles. And I loved driving it!
MY wife's X5 actually had 2 occurances of computer malfunctions which rendered the car undriveable and it had to be towed. But to this day, she will tell you that it's her favorite car of all time. Now, can we get a car with great Euro driving dynamics and the bullet proof reliability of the Lexus? That would be crowned the "New Champion"
In real life . . . probably not. the Lexus is tops at reliability and no other cars, not even other Japanese cars, do as well, although some come pretty close.
Interestingly, though, the latest generation of all-aluminum Jaguars do exceptionally well in the latest years of JD Power surveys, within a stone's throw of the Lexus on occasion. Incredible! I am not suggesting that a Jag is in your future, however, just remarking on the "reliability" topic.
I would be willing to bet that the latest '07 S-class will start to accumulate some very good quality and reliabiity statistics as time goes. From what I know so far, it is doing very well.
TagMan
Italian "soul" isn't really about handling. It's about the sound and fury of those V8s and V12s. The M5 doesn't have that.
Regardless of what LG says, anybody blind-folded can tell the difference between an Infiniti M and a BMW 5 Series.
They are both fine vehicles, but the BMW has better steering and handling. The M has better brakes.
BMW has taken reliability issues to heart and their sedans are getting better in that respect.
I have had 3 problem-free BMW's-two 3 Series and a 13 month trouble-free 545.
Sorry to hear about your wife's problems with the X5.
The X5 has probably been BMW's most unreliable model over the years. I wouldn't touch one.
I can't speak for you, but I feel the very small potential of a problem with any of the BMW sedans should not outweigh the incomparable rush you will feel driving one, as you already know.
It's a terrific feeling being behind the wheel of a BMW.
I hope you get to re-connect with one.
The Infiniti M comes very close. I believe the next G and FX will also fit this bill.
The Jags have gotten very reliable, but the X and S type are mediocre cars, at best. The XJ is a good car, and more fun to drive than an LS430, but its not a match for the Germans, in speed or handling. Just look at this Fifth Gear shootout between a XJR and CLS55. The XJ is rolling all over the place, while the Mercedes stays remarkably flat in the corners for its size and weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBlORzxlGD0
You should be back in time to be one of the first to drive the fabulous, new twin-turbo BMW 335i Coupe.
Looking forward to comparing notes.
Have a great vacation! :shades:
As for the Jag, I actually had forgotten in my initial post today, that I had taken that for a one day "test drive" and tried to love it because I really liked the exterior styling. Inside though, it was rather plain and the drive was neither sporty nor luxury. It just didn't hit for me on any front.
"Settled" for the 545 which I got for the same lease price as the X5 4.4.
I would stay away from the 7 Series-not enough luxury to be seriously considered as a member of the HELM realm.
Once you sample the new LS 460 I am thinking that you just may make the same decision, for many of the same reasons, that you made 3 years ago. I am betting this will be your next helm!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
By the way, with all of the technology available today, why isn't programable steering an option? For those of us that want a bit more effort and feel there could be a sport setting and for those that like the "american" soft steering, a luxury setting. I'm no tech wizard, but it seems to me that there are much more advanced electronics already available.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think this explains, in part, why some of the Lexus fans have yielded to that pressure and fled to the Lexus LS board.
Unfortunately, as I have checked that forum, unkind remarks and insults are being hurdled at this forum, so I decided not to post there. Apparently, the lack of class and mudslinging has now moved over there, I guess.
It is nonetheless quite fascinating how Lexus LS has been such an amazing force to reckon with, and will most likely get stronger as the new '07 is released.
If they can add more performance and better driving dynamics, then they could convert even more Eurocar fans, I would imagine.
TagMan
The new Volvo S80 offers adjustable effort steering. The problem is that "heavier" steering doesn't necessarily equal "better" steering. I've driven cars with light but telepathic steering, and cars with heavy but dull and numb steering. Unfortunately, from what I've read the S80 falls into the latter group. I assume though that its something that will quickly catch on in the luxury realm, like swiveling headlights.
I meant the Volvo's system is driver adjustable. Automatic variable effort steering has been around for years and years. BMW was first with variable ratio steering, but I think Volvo may be the first with a driver adjustable setup. I dont know of any other cars that have it yet.
I've never heard of the Audi A8L not feeling like a $70k-80k vehicle. My Audi along with everyone who has one probably knows that there are very few cars that have the quality that Audi puts into there cars.
And the qualilty of the A8 is outstanding, as the many journals have reputed serveral times. The body is as swift as a bridge abutment and the powertrains are first rate. IT is one of the safest cars on the road and with the many gadgets this car has, one will never get bored driving it.
And if you think the A8L is long, the 211" S550 is longer than the 205" A8L.