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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Lexus makes the best SUVs and flag-ship sedans on the planet.

    No ifs ands or buts, its the truth. Wake-up merc1. Your delusion is not shared by anyone except hate-mongers on this thread. You have been ranting for past 6 years on this board and what did you accomplish with your propaganda??

    Nothing, absolutely nothing! Did Daimler do better? Did mercedes do better? The germans can barely conceal their hatred for LS and ground breaking IS and they are fuming and rotting with jealousy. Had they been collaborative instead of combative, harmonious instead of acrimonious, spiritual instead of hateful they would have done much better.

    Despite relentless propaganda machinery unleashed by europeans through their paid minions in US and europe, they have not been able conceal the truth.

    LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM. More reliable, more gadgets, more fuel efficient, more luxurious and more elegant.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And if Lexus won the World Car of The Year Award, would you be questioning the credentials of the judges with such disdainful scrutiny?

    NOT! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why can't you just accept that the just about perfect, dynamic and incomparable BMW 3 Series has won one of the most prestigious vehicle awards in the world from some of the most distinguished judges around.

    A great day for the great "Company of Ideas".
    This should be celebrated as a universal holiday.
    Close the schools! Close the banks! Get the Detroit Lions to play football on that day!

    Finally I have world-wide confirmation of what I have known for some time-the BMW 3 Series is a winner without peer!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus makes the best SUVs and flag-ship sedans on the planet.

    Rubbish. Land Rover makes a better luxury SUV and Mercedes has sedans that will wipe the floor with anything Lexus makes. A LS430 clearly wasn't the best car that money could buy, only arguably the best within a certain price range. The LS460 and LS600h will do the same, provide a strong alternative to the German iron, but the best there is, not even. That would something from Germany with 12-cylinders.

    Your delusion is not shared by anyone except hate-mongers on this thread. You have been ranting for past 6 years on this board and what did you accomplish with your propaganda??

    Apparently yours about Lexus pricing their cars to match Mercedes, BMW or Audi isn't either. Not trying to "accomplish" anything, only correcting some very ill-thought notions about some of these luxury car brands from those who apparently don't know much about anything besides Lexus/Toyota.

    Why don't you ask yourself what you've accomplished in the time you've been here, not much of anything but making your own fellow Lexus fans tire of your nonsense.

    LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM.

    Ladies and Gentlemen may I present to you the most utterly ridiculous statement yet posted here. I thought I had read it all when I read that the 760L and S600 weren't luxury cars, but no....this about the LS takes the cake. Congratulations!

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    makes the best SUVs and flag-ship sedans on the planet."

    And yet the distinguished judges who issued the recent World Car Awards completely passed Lexus over.
    Go figure!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Look at this Peugeot 908 and you can see the Bangle influence around its rear end. In fact it kind of look like the new Camry.

    One exciting feature about this car is its drivetrain: An Audi contending LeMans 5.5 V12 diesel engine generating 700HP and 885LBs of torque.

    image
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexus makes the best SUVs and flag-ship sedans on the planet.

    LS has triumphed against all odds. It is the best-handling and most fun to drive HELM. More reliable, more gadgets, more fuel efficient, more luxurious and more elegant

    LOL,

    are you here to support Lexus ? Or are you here to ridicule the Lexus brand?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    "......the Supra, while a great 2+2 with a massive cult following, was not always tops. In fact, the 300ZX Twin Turbo won more comparos than any of it's competitors. And even tho the Supra was a Toyota, the Mitsu 3000GT actually had better build quality."

    Hemi, just say No to Blow! :blush:

    To update all who missed 3-4 years of mag covers in the mid-90's.....

    From June 1993 on, Supra Turbo was untouchable, until 5 years later, when the Vette was redesigned, and even then, C&D said it was within a hair of it!

    Don't even bring up the ZX, because I can name at least 3 comparisons where the Supra whupped it, crippling ZX resale values from then henseforth.

    The RX-7 was close, but the Rotary proved unreliable, to this day. And the car in general was less than Toyota-esque in quality.

    3000GT? Pretty car, dug the facelift in '95, but too heavy, and NO MITSU, then, now, EVER, had better quality than the Supra, or any Toyota! :mad:

    Anything that can take 900+HP, with stock tranny and chassis, is a legendary stud! Secretariat! Period! ;)

    Now back to our regularly scheduled HELM shouting matches, already in progress......

    DrFill
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    already knows how the new LS handles? Where is his official review? "The best handling, most fun to drive HELM". I can't wait to read this, can anybody forward this groundbreaking article to me? In the meantime, might I suggest that team Europe go hide out in a cave, and quiver, over this stunning review, from this oh so experienced, car journalist, and human behaviorist.
    And now I must reveal a stunning bit of information, surprising to no one, Steve is team Europes best ally. Sorry to break your cover dude but, oh well, you kind of did it yourself with your last two posts.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Simple. Lexus doesn't represent a global marquee. American jingoism for Lexus is cute, but holds no merit in the global Tier 1 marketplace ruled by Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. Merc1 you have it right! Lexus is a nice luxury branded vehicle but that is all.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Hey Steve! Welcome back to the HELM board!

    I have missed your refreshing, penetrating posts.

    I especially enjoy reading about your insights concerning the pride of Lexus, the LS.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    They are thrashing around and striking out at the magnificent new LS like a spider that has been stung by a wasp! Merc, I know your livlihood depends on Mercedes, but please don't be so boring and transparent. Lighten up and have some fun!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Man, this discussion has zoomed downhill over the last couple of weeks. Can we get back to talking about the actual CARS and stop all this sniping at each other?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You know, I was going to strike back at the Doc and tell him to stop taking the crazy pill, but no.

    I'm here to elaborate on my experience today in a brand spankin' new Maserati QP GT today. Let me just say, WOW. I've long underestimated this car as I'm still not as forgiving as some with the past Maserati offerings of the past 20 years.

    First thing, this cars interior, while not quite as lush as an A8 or S550, is very nice. The choice of interior materials and quality of them is about the best thing out of Italy behind a Ferrari Scallietti V12. The seats are super supportive and coddles without the restrained feel.

    The exterior design, while not the best in the class, is stunning as pictures don't do it justice. And the performance: The Ferrari-sourced V8 is absolutely electrifying. The sound is so good you actually think you're behind the wheel of a F430.

    The car takes curves like it's on rails, altho I didn't think it to be that much better than a 750i Sport. But what the car does do right is stop on a dime. 60-0 in 119 feet, a few shorter than a Boxster(none S) and only 4 feet longer than an Enzo.

    So, my friend who owns the car asked: Dude, is it enough to pry you out of your W12? I replied, heck no. He went on to ask sense my wife and I sold our CLS55, will it take your mind off of the S8? I replied, are you crazy? Then finally, he asked will I rethink the soon-to-be-purchased S600? I told him that I would have to drive them back to back again as the S600 is just that good. The QP GT is a true "4 door Sports Car", while the S600 is the complete package. It goes fast, it turns on a dime, and looks damn good doing it.

    Tag, Merc, hp, dewey, reality, even LG, what do you fellas think of the QP, particularly the GT? I respect your views on cars more so than most on here as they're unbiased, unlike some the "perfecto's".
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The folks whose opinions you are seeking know what they are talking about and I probably don't. But let me tell you, if I won the lottery, I think the first thing I would do is find a Maserati QP and bring it home. :P

    (and then go right back outside and run it!)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well I wish I can say I drove one, but alas, I haven't.
    I usually stay away from vehicles that are a bit above my price range.

    However, from everything I have read, there is no doubt it is the best of the HELM vehicles discussed here in that it is the only vehicle that has successfully solved the luxury/performance dilemma, is great in both and makes no concessions.

    Such a vehicle is wasted in the USA with its ridiculous speed limits, IMO, unless you have access to a great track and can really put it through its paces where I am sure you will feel quite exhilarated.

    As one would expect, the mpg is quite dismal, but if you can afford this vehicle, I'm sure you don't have to ask about the gas.

    As for me, I'm like Pat. I will just keep playing the lottery and dream!

    I'm sure Merc, LG, Dewey and Tagman have a lot to say about this allegedly great vehicle.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Thanks blkhemi. I must say that I have driven the QP once. I think it blends Italian design and performance in a very nice package with a very Italian taste to it. Which is nice compared to the ulitarian German look. Only Merc and Audi make comparable sedans to the QP GT as you mentioned. In my simple review, for a vehicle weighing so much, I found it easy to drive with a pretty good communicative feel in terms of handling. I did not notice too much roll either. It is very stiff though, much more I would assume than the new S8 since the S8 has adpative suspension. One thing that grabbed me a bit strange during my test drive was that the V8 spools up and sort of "gathers" itself before launching. For me this was a bit ackward. I get this same feeling on my '05 A6 4.2, but not as soft as the QP GT and much faster. The transmission is interesting and takes some time to get used to, but I did not find it frustrating as others have reported in various reviews of the QP. The interior is a nice blend of Italian tradition with a modern appeal, but not up to Audi standards. Still, the QP is low on hp compared to its main rivals from MB and Audi. But the QP is a very nice ride with that elegant and sexy Italian appeal. Robb Report is 'gaga' over it as they chose it over other competitors. Would I get it over the S8 - no! But still it is very appealing and different (which is always good).
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Why would Air Europe be desparate? I am not sure of your point. There is room for the LS in the marketplace, but it won't hurt the Europeans, especially in Europe, where no one will buy the LS except some "footballers wives".
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Blkhemi... if you haven't done so yet, read the entire Quattroporte thread on Edmunds. It's must-reading for anyone with interest:

    Maserati Quattroporte 2005+
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Regarding the Q:

    You might already know that I do not have the same negative view of the interior that some others do on this forum. The other day I posted the interior pic for all to see, and although I understand the criticisms, I really see and appreciate the beauty in it.

    The exterior is wonderful.

    I remember months ago I had asked the question of this forum to find the one single HELM that blended luxury and performance and the Q was one of the answers.

    The tranny is reputed to shift a bit too harsh, but I understand that is about to be changed for the better.

    I filled up at the gas station the other day right next to a gentlemen and his Q. I had to ask his take on the car. He LOVED his Q . . . its style and performance.

    My take on the Q? I have intended to drive it for myself, as there is a dealer not too far, but I've put it off for one reason or another, most particularly of course because I'm not about to buy one right now, but a drive will be in the future. At this point, without the test drive I give the car high marks, but a test drive is worth a lot. I would predict that after such a drive I would like it even more.

    :)
    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Tag, most of your opinions about the car are pretty much what I came away with today.

    The transmission will lose it's Cambiocorsa moniker in favor of a , ironically, Audi-sourced 6-Speed autobox.

    The interior has a unique flair to it. The choice of woods,plastics, and leathers are very appropiate for the 100k+ sticker, but closer scrutiny reveals the interior is not as well assembled as MB or Audi's. No huge biggie, what cars are?

    The suspension was on the stiff side. But I like my suspensions like I like my drinks, STIFF, STIRRED and not SHAKEN. The car has that glued to the road feel of the 7, but admittedly, a 760i Sport will dance circles around it.

    I did enjoy the stiff structure and rattle free interior. Absolutely no body roll. And I thought the Audi 4-Ring was huge on the front, that Maser Trident measures 11 inches, HUGE.

    All in all, I really dig the car. It is truely what the blend of performance and luxury is really all about. The car has the perfect balance of a true sport sedan. But that is the problem: too sporty. My W12 and the S600 let's you choose between all sporty or all comfort, not so in QP, which is it's intended purpose anyway....

    BTW: Thanks to all for your respective views on this awesome sports sedan. The info is really appreciated. What do any of you think of the S600? I think I know where Tag and Merc stands...........
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All in all, I really dig the car. It is truely what the blend of performance and luxury is really all about. The car has the perfect balance of a true sport sedan. But that is the problem: too sporty. My W12 and the S600 let's you choose between all sporty or all comfort, not so in QP, which is it's intended purpose anyway....


    If I had to choose between these two wonderful cars I would pick a QP. Is the QP too sporty? I wouldn't want it any other way. The purr of a V8 Ferrari engine is just too tempting.

    Based on my interpretation of your statement above it does appear that you're leaning towards a car like the S600 which provides more of a balance between luxury and performance than a QP.

    If I am mistaken and you do favor the sport of a QP, then have you ever considered putting your name on the waiting list for an Audi RS6? I know the QP and RS6 are at very different price levels but the RS6 does look like one great bang for the buck(at least relative to a QP)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Anyways I am going on vacation to the USA for two weeks (finally our Canadian dollar is worth something). I need a two week break from the stresses of work and this HELM forum. :)

    Take Care!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    blkhemi,
    What about some of the AMG models?
    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The interior has a unique flair to it. The choice of woods,plastics, and leathers are very appropiate for the 100k+ sticker, but closer scrutiny reveals the interior is not as well assembled as MB or Audi's. No huge biggie, what cars are?

    I agree on the interiors. The German cars are, well German. The attention to the smallest details in the A8 and the new S is of course first rate. Every last piece has been calculated to absolute perfection. That, I think, is what German luxury is all about.

    The inside of the QP is also incredibly luxurious, but in an Italian style. It's in the look, the feel, rather than ultimate build quality. The QP reminds me of the famous Italian speaker company, Sonus Faber. They use lute shaped cabinets, with hand matched wood panels, leather baffles, and silk wire grilles. To Sonus Faber, the look and feel is just as important as the sound quality.

    The QP is not an engineering tour de force like the new S class, and it feels out of its element on bumpy city streets. What the QP does have though is soul inside and out, that you can't get from Jaguar, Mercedes, Audi, or BMW, and certainly not Lexus. It's not a well rounded car, but it is a fantastic Italian drivers car.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    As usual LG, I appreciate your viewpoint. You're not scared to give a good nod on anything outside of Japan,

    And yes, the soul of the QP is undoubtedly tops in the class.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some of us have been working hard to get this discussion back on the right track. Unfortunately there are a couple of you who don't want to cooperate. That's a real shame - this used to be such a high-class discussion. I know others join me in hating to see it going down the drain like this.

    I have removed a bunch of posts whose primary purpose was to snipe at one or more other discussion members. I'm going to continue to do so.

    If you are not able to keep your post focused on the cars, understand that it's not going to live very long.

    Thanks to those who have been trying to get this ship righted. We would all appreciate everyone else's cooperation.

    :sick:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    much time looking at the QP. I can tell you that looking at the S8 at the Audi driving event in Dallas [southfork ranch for he release of the Q7] It is as stunning a car in the class and I would bet the house that most people would say the same.
    If I needed four doors that could perform like the QP then I might jump on it [finances permitting :blush: ] However, I would probably take a GT3RS for maybe a little more money and have an awesome track car. The S8 will scare the pants of any unsuspecting soul riding in the front, while those in back would have no idea.
    My two cents, worth about two cents.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The QP is not an engineering tour de force like the new S class, and it feels out of its element on bumpy city streets. What the QP does have though is soul inside and out, that you can't get from Jaguar, Mercedes, Audi, or BMW, and certainly not Lexus. It's not a well rounded car, but it is a fantastic Italian drivers car.

    Basically, you are distinguishing between sport and luxury, road cars and living-room cars, and the levels at which they are achieved. Although I have not driven a Quattroporte I wouldn’t say you can’t get soul from a BMW. Their sport-tuned suspensions are impeccable. However a Quattroporte owner who also had an E39 M5 said he really likes the Q better.

    I pine for said M5. Maybe I shouldn’t drive the Q lest I get ruined. I don’t know though, I’m not a fan of low low-end-torque and high redline in the heavyweights, not to mention the sequential gearbox. Plus, a slushbox contradicts that type of engine.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Dewey - have a great vacation! :shades:

    TagMan
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I am currently into the last year of a 3 year lease of a Lexus LS430 and at this point I feel that I can give a good objective summary of this car. (By the way, I have also leased BMWs, MB's Infiniti and Lexus in the past).
    Before I got this car, I had considered the A8L (SWB was not available at that time),BMW 7 and MB S Class.
    The A8L was so long that it would not fit in my garage and I felt like a limo driver. I liked the ride but I was hesitant about Audi quality reputation and while I liked the interior, I was not in love with the exterior and it did not "feel" like a 70-80K car to me. The S Class stole my heart in terms of looks and image. But I had heard so many horror stories about electronics issues and with the lease price a good 400 per month more than the Lexus, I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. If the price would have been within 200 per month, I would have taken a shot that the quality issues would not apply to my car. But to stretch to 400 and be in the service shop was not my thing. The 7 series did not feel luxurious enough to me for the price and, not that it's a bad thing, but I "only" felt like I was driving a big 3 series, a car I had and loved.
    So I went with the "value" play and to me it is a compromise. (another big reason was that I wanted blue tooth conductivity for hands free and the others didn't offer at the time). While the car has a fantastic build quality and everything works the right way every time, it is not an inspiring car to drive. I got it for comfort, reliability and convenience and it delivers very well on those. However it definitely lacks the driving dynamics of the Euros. It floats over the road and doesn't convey the feeling of control that one gets from the Euros mentioned above. Sometimes I find myself getting a bit weary because I feel disconnected from the drive. The seats are OK, like a nice couch but I prefer the firmer more supportive MB, BMW style.
    I wish the steering was more connected and tighter even if just in highway driving not canyon carving.
    Great radio, great electronics in the Lexus and one gets the idea that this car will continue to be fully functional and flawless for 200,000 miles or more. All said, I think my next car will be European. I love the new S Class and while I haven't driven one, I may be tempted especially if they bring a smaller engine at a lower price. To me,that is still the king of the road luxury car with the most solid feel and good compromise between lux and sport (The last S430 I did drive). I look at the S Class and I think that it's the pinnacle and there's no where else to go (I wouldn't drive a Maybach,Rolls etc even if I could ever afford one or won the lottery) Or maybe the BMW, if it improves with the next 7 with a turbo engine and fixing the electronic glitches.
    Lexus is still a value based company in my opinion. Meaning that they must undercut the Europeans in price since they still lack in prestige even though it's amazing how far they've come in such a short time. Dollar for dollar being equal or close, I would have gone with the S Class last time around, but while my heart wanted the S, my brain convinced me to go with the LS which had more goodies for less money with the reliability aspect added in for good measure. I think it would be premature for them to price their cars equal or close to the Euros. I for one would love to see them take a stab at a sport version (like AMG or M) with firm seats, tighter steering etc) but I think that the marketing types and bean counters are looking at the typical US Lexus owner who wants the best Caddy, Town Car ever made. And it's that by a long shot. Do they want to alienate their core clients or dilute their approach for the sake a few guys like us that rant and rave on Edmunds! In the end, they are running a business to make a profit and to grab market share. As long as they are very successful I don't think we will see them change their strategy.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Great post Topspin628!

    Pretty much confirms what I don't like about the LS-the disappointing disconnect from the involving driver's experience-due to the floaty suspension, the loose steering and the excessive body lean.

    Glad you mentioned the seats. I did not find the LS driver's seat all that comfortable either-my 545's comfort seats are a big improvement, as of course is the driving excitement.

    However, as you point out, the LS has its enthusiastic supporters here, and the fact that it has and will most likely continue to sell well, shows there are many people who enjoy the luxury of a limo experience at a HELM value price.

    The LS is very good at what it provides.
    Those of us who find it disappointing have plenty of other choices.

    I have previously posted that Lexus should offer a serious sport package for the LS as Toyota does with the Camry SE.

    Keep in mind relative quality has improved significantly, so if a Lexus vehicle is currently rated "excellent" and a BMW, "average"-that "average" would probably have been equivalent to "better than average", just a few years ago.

    Whichever vehicle you decide on, Euro or Japanese, please come back and share your experience.

    A wonderful post! :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    topspin628 - you have succesfully summed up with one well-balanced post what many of us have been saying on this forum for a long time.

    The fact that your post is a real-life testimonial adds credibility.

    You have hit on many of the key differences between a Lexus LS and an alternative such as an S-class or BMW. Your experience reinforces the "safer", "value-conscious" approach to purchasing a Lexus, and that when doing so, there are attributes left behind . . . "driving dynamics", as you put it, is certainly one of them.

    Yes, your heart wanted the S. . . . but your wallet would have been squeezed too tightly at the time. Hopefully next time your heart will prevail, and you will enjoy a wonderful S-class, BMW, or other Eurocar.

    Thanks again for that post . . . it was like a nice piece of candy.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    great post. Nice to hear real world experience. The LS is truly great at what it does, value, reliability, excellent customer service, great build quality, but that is where it ends.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    As for overall reliability, I think that BMW is good Except for the 7. I personally know of 2 people who both had to go Lemon Law for the first year model. (I don't know too many people who drive them so statistically that's way too high). For the S Class, I also know 2 people who were given brand new cars by the dealer. That's amazing to me and good for MB for backing up their products. When I was serious about the S Class, I spoke to the manager of service who had no vested interest as he didn't even know that I was in the market. He told me that vast majority of them were fine but if you got a "bad" one it was really bad.
    I hope the new S Class is improved in that area.
    That being said, I do agree that cars today are so much more reliable than in the past that the bar is raised so high to get a very good rating. This is a good thing for all of us. My 00 BMW 3 had 2 small annoyance fixed quickly and was flawless for 50K miles. And I loved driving it!
    MY wife's X5 actually had 2 occurances of computer malfunctions which rendered the car undriveable and it had to be towed. But to this day, she will tell you that it's her favorite car of all time. Now, can we get a car with great Euro driving dynamics and the bullet proof reliability of the Lexus? That would be crowned the "New Champion"
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Now, can we get a car with great Euro driving dynamics and the bullet proof reliability of the Lexus?

    In real life . . . probably not. the Lexus is tops at reliability and no other cars, not even other Japanese cars, do as well, although some come pretty close.

    Interestingly, though, the latest generation of all-aluminum Jaguars do exceptionally well in the latest years of JD Power surveys, within a stone's throw of the Lexus on occasion. Incredible! I am not suggesting that a Jag is in your future, however, just remarking on the "reliability" topic.

    I would be willing to bet that the latest '07 S-class will start to accumulate some very good quality and reliabiity statistics as time goes. From what I know so far, it is doing very well.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Basically, you are distinguishing between sport and luxury, road cars and living-room cars, and the levels at which they are achieved. Although I have not driven a Quattroporte I wouldn’t say you can’t get soul from a BMW. Their sport-tuned suspensions are impeccable. However a Quattroporte owner who also had an E39 M5 said he really likes the Q better.

    Italian "soul" isn't really about handling. It's about the sound and fury of those V8s and V12s. The M5 doesn't have that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Look for it to be BMW in a few years.

    Regardless of what LG says, anybody blind-folded can tell the difference between an Infiniti M and a BMW 5 Series.
    They are both fine vehicles, but the BMW has better steering and handling. The M has better brakes.

    BMW has taken reliability issues to heart and their sedans are getting better in that respect.

    I have had 3 problem-free BMW's-two 3 Series and a 13 month trouble-free 545.

    Sorry to hear about your wife's problems with the X5.
    The X5 has probably been BMW's most unreliable model over the years. I wouldn't touch one.

    I can't speak for you, but I feel the very small potential of a problem with any of the BMW sedans should not outweigh the incomparable rush you will feel driving one, as you already know.

    It's a terrific feeling being behind the wheel of a BMW.
    I hope you get to re-connect with one.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Now, can we get a car with great Euro driving dynamics and the bullet proof reliability of the Lexus? That would be crowned the "New Champion"

    The Infiniti M comes very close. I believe the next G and FX will also fit this bill.

    The Jags have gotten very reliable, but the X and S type are mediocre cars, at best. The XJ is a good car, and more fun to drive than an LS430, but its not a match for the Germans, in speed or handling. Just look at this Fifth Gear shootout between a XJR and CLS55. The XJ is rolling all over the place, while the Mercedes stays remarkably flat in the corners for its size and weight.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBlORzxlGD0
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Just remember, Dewey, your BMW synthetic motor oil is no longer a carry-on item. ;)

    You should be back in time to be one of the first to drive the fabulous, new twin-turbo BMW 335i Coupe.

    Looking forward to comparing notes.

    Have a great vacation! :shades:
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Yes, I'm a big fan of BMW. My point on the X5 was that in spite of those two instances of computer failure and the corresponding inconvenience, we love the car. We've taken it on several long trips and after 5 hours of driving, I feel very little fatigue. It always inspires confidence and it feels rock solid. So there is more to the car experience than reliability. It's like owning a watch that is very accurate but you feel little or no emotional attachment to or one that may need some maintanince now and then but that you love every time you look at it.
    As for the Jag, I actually had forgotten in my initial post today, that I had taken that for a one day "test drive" and tried to love it because I really liked the exterior styling. Inside though, it was rather plain and the drive was neither sporty nor luxury. It just didn't hit for me on any front.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I drove the X5 4.4 last summer. I found it to have BMW's best interior and most generous driver's seat legroom. Handled extemely well, but was turned off by the mpg.
    "Settled" for the 545 which I got for the same lease price as the X5 4.4.

    I would stay away from the 7 Series-not enough luxury to be seriously considered as a member of the HELM realm.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good post Topspin and a good, honest evaluation. We each have our own opinions on what makes a fine automobile and on any purchase there is some compromise.

    Once you sample the new LS 460 I am thinking that you just may make the same decision, for many of the same reasons, that you made 3 years ago. I am betting this will be your next helm!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I saw the new LS at the NY Auto show and I must say that it is a striking car. They claim that it will be as big a breakthrough as the first LS in 90. Let's see.
    By the way, with all of the technology available today, why isn't programable steering an option? For those of us that want a bit more effort and feel there could be a sport setting and for those that like the "american" soft steering, a luxury setting. I'm no tech wizard, but it seems to me that there are much more advanced electronics already available.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have often wondered about that myself. I too like a little steering effort. It should be a simple option to offer.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It is interesting to take note that all the imported HELMS listed on this forum are European with the exception of the Lexus LS.

    I think this explains, in part, why some of the Lexus fans have yielded to that pressure and fled to the Lexus LS board.

    Unfortunately, as I have checked that forum, unkind remarks and insults are being hurdled at this forum, so I decided not to post there. Apparently, the lack of class and mudslinging has now moved over there, I guess.

    It is nonetheless quite fascinating how Lexus LS has been such an amazing force to reckon with, and will most likely get stronger as the new '07 is released.

    If they can add more performance and better driving dynamics, then they could convert even more Eurocar fans, I would imagine.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    By the way, with all of the technology available today, why isn't programable steering an option? For those of us that want a bit more effort and feel there could be a sport setting and for those that like the "american" soft steering, a luxury setting. I'm no tech wizard, but it seems to me that there are much more advanced electronics already available.

    The new Volvo S80 offers adjustable effort steering. The problem is that "heavier" steering doesn't necessarily equal "better" steering. I've driven cars with light but telepathic steering, and cars with heavy but dull and numb steering. Unfortunately, from what I've read the S80 falls into the latter group. I assume though that its something that will quickly catch on in the luxury realm, like swiveling headlights.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Is this this the same as the speed sensitive steering from BMW? That is not something that is adjustable by the driver. What I was talking about was having a setting that can be regulated similar to the suspension settings on some cars.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is this this the same as the speed sensitive steering from BMW? That is not something that is adjustable by the driver. What I was talking about was having a setting that can be regulated similar to the suspension settings on some cars.

    I meant the Volvo's system is driver adjustable. Automatic variable effort steering has been around for years and years. BMW was first with variable ratio steering, but I think Volvo may be the first with a driver adjustable setup. I dont know of any other cars that have it yet.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I agree with most of your post, however there were some things that I can't quite understand.

    I've never heard of the Audi A8L not feeling like a $70k-80k vehicle. My Audi along with everyone who has one probably knows that there are very few cars that have the quality that Audi puts into there cars.

    And the qualilty of the A8 is outstanding, as the many journals have reputed serveral times. The body is as swift as a bridge abutment and the powertrains are first rate. IT is one of the safest cars on the road and with the many gadgets this car has, one will never get bored driving it.

    And if you think the A8L is long, the 211" S550 is longer than the 205" A8L.
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