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  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What a great quote! "Objectively it does everything you could ask of it, subjectively it falls a little short."
    Really sums up what we Euros have been saying for years.

    Yep, but of course this isn't understood by the Lexus faithful.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Does anyone else find it hard to fathom a 4300lb car that does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds being short on low-end torque, or NEEDING to be revved to draw power?

    No, this is why the car has 8 gears! The first 2 are short because this new marvel of a V8 is what others have said, short on torque at low RPM. This is where having a larger engine like a 5.5L V8 turns out to be an advantage.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I just noticed that Edmunds has a review up also, but they don't mention anything about actually driving the car, just a lot about the features, but they stated:

    With a new long-wheelbase model, Lexus' all-new flagship sedan is less about driving and more about being driven.

    Hmmm..I wonder how they know that because the review doesn't read as if they've actually driven the car?

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hmmm..I wonder how they know that because the review doesn't read as if they've actually driven the car?

    A LOT of that info appears to be extrapolated from the Lexus Press Release.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well it wouldn't be the first time I've seen an Edmunds "first drive" in which there was very little if anything pertaining to actually driving the car. I understand the techno features of the LS are extensive, but surely there was room somewhere for a comment or two about how the car actually drove.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well that is why I have elected not to post on the LS-specific board if I'm not really seeking information about the car. That is only fair, IMO. I wouldn't want them on the MB-specific boards.

    Well, the wonderful thing for us is that the LS is a HELM and is "on topic" for us to discuss. On the other hand, they are technically not supposed to discuss at length the other marques that we have the liberty to discuss here.

    If they want to talk about the Mercedes and BMW and Audi HELMS, they can't do it for long on the LS board.

    Nothing but LS over there. ALL the HELMS over here.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    FACT: The '07 LS does not have a lot of low-end torque. The 0-60 acceleration time of 5.4 seconds is accomplished by the FACT that the first two gears in the new 8-speed tranny are specifically designed to be low enough to accommodate the low torque, and still enable brisk acceleration.

    Thus, the engine DOES, in FACT, need higher revs to accelerate.

    FACT: The engine is officially rated at 380 horsepower at 6400 rpm and 367 pound-feet at 4100 rpm. People can "fathom" all they want to . . . there is quite simply and FACTUALLY not a lot of low end torque to this engine.

    FACTS and TRUTH on the HELM forum . . . and more to come.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    High reving engines make cars feel sportier . . . just like light/sporty handling . . . neither is what is much demanded in vehicles of this size class.

    LS460 does not need to rev high to get good accelearation from start because its first two gears are low.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    FACT: We have not seen the torque curve in graph yet. 367 lb-ft at 4100rpm peak could mean 330lb-ft at 1800rpm for all we know, until we see the torque curve to the contrary.

    FACT: engines do not need higher revs to accelearate . . . engines always accelearate quickly at lower rpm's . . . because engine accelearation means increase of RPM in the engine itself, whether the vehicle is moving or not. What you meant probably was vehicle acceleration . . . in that case, whether an engine needs higher revs to get the vehicle to accelarate from low speed is quite dependent on transmission/final-drive configurations.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Isn't that kinda redundant? Tossing a 545i too much on too tight curves may find the driver tossing something else too, compared to even a lowly 330i or Z4. Tossing the vehicle on tight curves are not what these big sedans are made for . . . dah! Get a $7k motorcycle for tossing fun.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Tossing the vehicle on tight curves are not what these big sedans are made for . . . dah! Get a $7k motorcycle for tossing fun.

    That's not really true. The QP is in the 200" club, and is also a very tossable and fun car to drive, especially the Sport GT. Obviously a S55 AMG or Audi S8 stands no chance on a track against a M3 CSL or RS4. That doesn't mean they can't be fun on some twisty roads.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    As if Lexus is all of sudden going to make the LS any more fun to drive....why would they risk messing up the ride of the LS?

    Yes, this is the essence of what happened and was predictable. I said on several occaisions in the past that the LS460 was unlikely to out-handle the German competition. In part because it makes good business sense to target a certain part of the market that has already been successful for the company (meaning luxury-leaning rather than sport-leaning) and in part because Lexus itself in its past PR only promised it would be the best-handling LS ever (as opposed to the best-handling in its class or best-handling Lexus).

    If the sport-seeking are lucky then someday maybe we'll see a AMG/M-type LS, but my impression is that Lexus hasn't given any definitive indication that one will be forthcoming.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    link title
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I didn't come up with those words.
    The reviewer from Canadian Driver did.

    His point was obvious-the 2007 LS is about as agile and clumsy as the vehicle it replaces, and is about as much created for driving pleasure as a cobra is designed to give you a tummy rub.

    Add the grabby, impossible to modulate to a smooth stop brakes, and it's looking better and better for the Mercedes Benz S Class.

    Lexus had all that time to improve the driving dynamics of the new LS.
    Instead they paid more attention to making sure the chauffeur's hat has adequate clearance and that the rear passengers' butts will be perfumed.

    It has been written that Lexus should raise their price for the LS to give it more "status."

    After reading several reviews which unanimously condemn the car as a major disappointment from a driving standpoint, I would set the price of the LS460 at $38,000 and hope there are enough comatose people out there who don't read the reviews to buy it, and also, subsidize their leases like crazy.

    Forunately, however, Lexus can always rely on those Mercedes Benz wanna-bees-those who cannot afford to step up to the ultimate HELM, the Mercedes Benz S550-600, which in both performance and luxury will always be way out in front of the Lexus LS.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I was very excited to read the Edmunds "First Drive" of the new LS. Alas, there wasn't much "drive" but merely a rundown of features.
    I was very disappointed as I have very little interest in the self parking mechanism and much more in knowing if Lexus is really trying to take on the S Class in terms of the driving experience. Come on Edmunds, "where's the beef?" Maybe in the full test?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    In my experience, many, but certainly not all, "first drives" are nothing more than a summary of a car's appearance, exterior and interior statistics and accessories.

    They are really just "previews" and it would be a demonstration of integrity to call it what it really is.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I don’t think that Lexus should touch a thing.

    Not like I’m in the business of defending Lexus, I actually can’t stand the company (err…division)…but my automobile bigotry is a different issue.

    The LS has a competitive (sales wise) formula. The vehicles are reasonably quick in a straight line and give a “relaxed” ride. I know many people that do not give any attention to a vehicle’s handling…or more accurately equate being able to turn it around in a parking lot as “good handling”.

    Modulate brakes? What does a Lexus owner know about that? “When I press the brakes, it stops”

    Just as an improved engine will not cause the Lexus faithful to flock to the show rooms, neither will a better handling Lexus…and a vastly improved handling Lexus (I know not hard to do) may destroy the “formula”. So sacrificing the established in order to “potentially” attract me does not seem to be a sound business decision.

    Up until the latest models (and I have not driven any of them), it seemed Lexus could throw any “junk” in the drive train and people would still buy them…like a co-worker last year buying an 05 LX 470…65K for a 235hp V8, 5 speed auto; I was confused…but hey…she was happy.

    I wouldn’t expect BMW to start making soft mushy vehicles to compete against Lexus.

    A new sub-division of Lexus (AMG,M,RS) may be in order…or possibly a whole new division (they’ve got money to burn), but I wouldn’t mess with what works (for them).
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Modulate brakes? What does a Lexus owner know about that? "When I press the brakes, it stops." "

    Sure. Those were the good old days.

    Seems like the 2007 LS now has the same brakes as the GS430-which I drove. They are among the worst brakes I ever tried. Hyper-sensitive.

    Believe me, if the new LS gets these brakes, there will be a lot of unhappy Lexicans out there. Paying $65k and up for a car that jerks to a stop.

    They will go from :) to :cry: !
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I wouldn't expect BMW to start making soft mushy vehicles to compete against Lexus."

    Maybe not, but in its own disappointing way, BMW seems to be abandoning its mission more and more away from drivers' cars and is selling out to distracting technology.

    Adaptive steering, difficult to use turn signals, distracting and complicated iDrive. Brakes that are almost as bad as the ones in the GS430.

    At least the adaptive steering is an option, but with my 545, I had no choice but to get the iDrive and those cursed, touchy brakes.

    Believe me, BMW ain't what it used to be.
    I just hope it doesn't get worse from here. :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    After the "First Drive" of the 2007 LS 460:

    "The new Lexus may not be as pretty as the Audi, or as powerful as the Mercedes, or as driver-focused as the 750i, but it is the only one that can park itself."

    Let's see-it's not too pretty, not too powerful and not too driver-focused.

    Well what the heck is left???

    If that's the best Edmunds can say about the 2007 LS, it must be pretty disappointing.

    A shame to pay $65k and up when the best you can say about the car is "it can park itself." :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's still way too early to draw any significant opinions about the LS, IMO.

    The vehicle is likely to show signs of improvement, but for the most part will simply accomplish the task that it was created for, and do so very well.

    The luxury will be refined and the ride will be soft. A bit more power, techno wizardry and the car parks itself.

    It's way too early to be drawing big conclusions about the brakes, IMO, although early indications are that they may be a bit too touchy or grabby.

    "touchy and grabby"? . . . . sounds like the car is X-rated.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Seems to be generating a lot of interest on the helm board. Come on guys, it will be 2 months before the car hits the streets. Rather than already bashing it, can't you find something good to say about some other makes? Reminds me of Bush and the democrats!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The Lexus press release admits that the first two gears of the 8-speed tranny are intentionally low to enable brisker acceleration. This is a very good indication that the low end torque is a bit weak, but as you say, the final curves are not out yet. I'll bet the ranch, however, that the engine is a bit weak in low-end torque, and that overall it delivers its best torque and hp at mid to high rpms, with not very much going on at the low rpms.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "It will be 2 months before the car hits the streets."

    Yes, but some reviews from Canada and Britain are already out for the 2007 LS-none favorable, plus you have the Edmunds "first drive" which was mildly polite at best.

    When the reviews come out for any new HELM model, as they have been with the 2007 LS, we will comment on them.

    It's what we do! :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, if you need some info on the S Class just go to that board. There has been one post there in the last month!! All the previous posts talked about were problems, problems, problems!! Very exciting!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And you can go to the regular LS board (not the futures board) and find all kinds of talk about problems with the LS.

    So . . . what's your point other than to do some more bashing?

    BTW, unlike the LS booard, this board allows us to discuss ALL the HELMs, including the LS, so it is reasonable to expect more comparisons and criticisms alike.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Plus you have the Edmunds "first drive" which was mildly polite at best.

    Who knows, Edmunds could end up falling in love with the car. There's so much continuity in the reviews around here that the GS is simultaniously Japan's best, and worst, sports sedan.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, that's pretty obvious also...so what is your point? I thought you liked factual posts. No need to get defensive.

    I can't seem to find a forum for the NEW S Class. You would think a car of this worldwide status, prestige and interest would have one.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    There is a long, long way to go on reviews of the new LS.
    We will be saturated with them over the next 2 months.

    My gut is telling me that the autorags will find it rather dull because, after all, they live for redline.

    I do not believe anyone seeking a positive write-up on the LS should be waiting for R&T and its ilk to review this vehicle.
    Lexus will have to lobby them real hard for those guys to even consider reviewing the LS. Lexus shouldn't bother.

    I'd rather check some of the online review sights-they will be fairer to this vehicle: New Car Test Drive, Canadian Automotive Network and the Professional Car Reviews of MSN Autos come to mind.

    And yes, the Edmunds review could, of course, be favorable.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I can't seem to find a forum for the NEW S Class. You would think a car of this worldwide status, prestige and interest would have one.

    :D lol . . . man, you are on a roll today.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes Tag, I am a little full of myself this afternoon because I shot a 73 this morning on a very tough golf course! Sorry!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Congrats. Was that your personal best? Mine is 74.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    It wasn't my best score. I shot a 67 about 20 years ago on a much easier par 70 course. I would say this was my best round of golf as far as striking the ball. I hit 16 greens in reg. but had a fairly high 35 putts. A par 72 course with a slope rating of 138. The back nine has a slope of 150.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Nice. Next time play the back nine too.

    With a name like "Houdini", I'll bet you are quite good at making bogeys disappear. :P
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    QP also has a very high-revving engine . . . another trait that is atypical of this class. These cars being routinely out-handed by cars half their price goes to show that handling is not the primary characteristics of these cars.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And the reviewer from Canadian Driver has been an objective writer for how many . . . hours?? Scribes for car reviews may as well be commentators for WWF . . . they enjoy toeing the "character" lines . . . it makes for good story. Objectivity be damned.

    The rest of your post reads like someone who really wants an LS but can not afford one . . . with sour grapes. For what it's worth, it's BMW and MB that heavily subsidizes their leases, not Lexus. What does that say about BMW/MB and their lessees if we were to follow your own logic?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    These cars being routinely out-handed by cars half their price goes to show that handling is not the primary characteristics of these cars.

    :confuse:

    TagMan
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    you would SO be welcome to start a new one, seeing as you're a HUGE fan and all :)

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "The rest of your post reads like someone who really wants an LS, but cannot afford one."

    Well, ya finally got me! I must confess that I actually live in an alley on the bowery and am posting this with a laptop provided by the good folks at the salvation army.

    Congrats. Ya saw right through me!

    What gave it away? I tried so hard to act like all you rich folk.

    Gotta go. A guy just tossed me a quarter. It's rolling away... Don't want any of the other bums to get it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    OUCH!! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    What "gave it away" was very simple: you leased a 545i, which is less expensive than an LS . . . the same logic that you were using accusing LS buyers of being unable to afford an S. Now I will sit back and watch you squirm and come up with arguments that debunk your own earlier ridiculous logic.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    who cares about brakes any more? . . . afterall, the car parks itself!

    ...so does a cab
    :shades:
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The real "reviews" will be when Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile and Motor Trend do their thing. Until this all these reports from the press introduction really don't mean much IMO. Of course that all-important C&D comparo will be the talk of the year! I can see it now, the LS460L, S550, 750Li, A8L and XJ8L all being compared in the December 06' or January 07 issue.

    Well here is a better review:

    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/autoexpresstv/featuresvideos/202343/lexus_ls460.htm- l

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, not too bad of a review.

    He wanted to hear that big V-8 "growl", but that's not what Lexus is about.
    He found the steering a bit "dull at the center." Typical Lexus, there.
    He is to be envied being able to put a car through its paces on the Autobahn at 200km/h (120 mph).
    I myself can only afford to do that in "momentary spurts" and there is NOTHING LIKE IT!

    Thanks for posting the link to this review.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Np.

    I've been scouring the net for reviews on the new LS, and so far that is the most in-depth one out there.

    The usual monthly publications should have theirs in their Nov or Dec issues.

    Autoweek should have something on it next week or the week after next.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I hope we get several good comparos pitting the LS460 vs the S550.

    I also hope the autorags see some merit in it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The real "reviews" will be when Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile and Motor Trend do their thing.

    I've pretty much heard what I need to hear between AutoExpress, Canadian Driver, Edmunds, and wasn't their a fourth posted around here? However the real review will be when we drive it but I know exactly what to expect. Bottom line for me is that it's a nice luxury car that offers nothing for the performance-minded.

    The only issue at large is this longstanding battle between the LS and S in the HELM thread. I guess a trophy must be awarded with bragging rights duly accorded and, yes, the full comparos in one or all of those that you cited are the key.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "there" not "their"

    I hate when I do that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    hate it more than you do!

    Excuse me while I go out to my 165 slope golf course and shoot 65.
    I'm borrowing that other guy's pencil.
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