High End Luxury Cars

hpowders · August 2006

Not too far upward.
I get nosebleeds!

pat · August 2006

we are not here to talk about other posters nor are we here to talk about what is going on in any other discussion. If you have a problem with a posted message here or in another discussion, please email me.

Yeah, a couple of posts met Kirstie's magic vanishing potion that she licensed to me.

houdini1 · August 2006

Does anyone actually have any credible sources of info concerning average age of certain auto owners? I've eaten quite a few hats before but I will gladly eat another one
if the age of Mercedes drivers isn't older than Lexus drivers.

I am not trying to start a war, I am just curious. Anything other than opinion out there?

tagman · August 2006

A number of months ago, there was a chart posted here that represented the average ages of drivers of most vehicles.

Maybe someone here remembers the source.

Bottom line . . . there IS some credible data on this, and BTW, the average age of the MB driver IS older than the Lexus driver, but that is likely due to the demographics economic curve.

Most drivers tend to get older in ratio with the increase in price of the vehicles, with some very interesting exceptions, however.

TagMan

syswei · August 2006

Here you go:

Car buyers' median age by brand:
Division Median age
Rolls-Royce 62.9
Lincoln 62.8
Buick 60.8
Mercedes 58.7
Chrysler 56.4
Mercury 55.1
Cadillac 53.4
Jaguar 49.8
Lexus 49.4
BMW 46.1
Ferrari 45.6
Hummer 45.6
Acura 45.3
GMC 44.4
Saab 44.4
Pontiac 43.4
Porsche 43.4
Dodge 42.9
Chevrolet 42.7
Honda 41.9
Toyota 41.9
Infiniti 41.6
Mitsubishi 41.3
Volvo 40.3
Ford 39.7
Land Rover 38.9
VW 38.7
Jeep 37.6
Nissan 35.1
Mazda 34.6
Suzuki 33.2
Isuzu 32.7
Subaru 31.7
Saturn 30.9
Hyundai 29.8
Kia 28.1

source

tagman · August 2006

syswei - good work!

But watch the data get twisted.

TM

hpowders · August 2006

I stand by what I say.

Where I live, about 7 out of 10 LS drivers are senior citizens.
I never mentioned the average or median age of the entire Lexus brand, did I?

Your statistic has no validity to what I posted, because this statistic going across the brand involves a lot of SUV sales-many of which are being driven by young, affluent Moms- what's their average age-about 34?
This is a huge market for Lexus and will skew the average or median age significantly downward.

Therefore, I have no problem with the average age being 49. I can accept that.
What would it be if you take out SUV and IS sales?
A lot higher!

Even Autospies photographed the demographic target sign for the new LS recently and it was, I believe 55-60.
Good luck Lexus with that!

Whether you like it or not, more affluent older people drive the LS than younger people of significant means.

Sorry, but that chart is totally inapropos what I am talking about.

syswei · August 2006

Where I live, about 7 out of 10 LS drivers are senior citizens.

Not where I live.

What point are you trying to make, anyway? Are you saying that LS owners on average are older than S owners? 7 owners? If the former, I disagree. We have no model-specific data, as you point out. But by observation, "where I live" if there is a difference between the age of the average S and LS driver, it would be that the S driver is older. I think the S appeals more to "old money" and the LS to "nouveau riche". All just my opinion.

If you mean that LS owners on average are older than 7 drivers, I would agree, based on personal observation and simple knowledge of the market positioning of the respective models.

hpowders · August 2006

The point is the Lexus target age for the LS is a lot higher than the median age across the brand.
That's gotta tell you something? No?

syswei · August 2006

Sure, it tells us that the LS is higher priced and less sporty than the rest of the lineup and hence attracts older customers on average than the rest of the lineup.

But that would be true about the S, 7, A8, etc., relative to their lineups.

So what is the point? Did anyone here ever say that the median LS buyer is 49?

I actually had been only skimming the thread of late, noted Tagman's request for the table, and found it for him. Didn't make any claim that it represented the LS specifically.

I have no problem with a viewpoint that the average LS buyer is older than the average Lexus buyer. But if you are trying to criticize the LS or its buyers by saying they are "old", I would respond that imho they are no older than S buyers.

pat · August 2006

Anecdotal data does not tell you what the target age (or any demographic characteristic) is for any brand.

We need to be talking about the CARS. You like or don't like the car for what the car is - you don't like or dislike the car because of real or perceived demographical data ... do you?? :confuse: I sure hope not.

tagman · August 2006

What's your REAL point for crying out loud? If Lexus drivers are older, so what . . heck, with age comes wisdom, right? You can twist this data all day long and go nowhere fast. Sorry, Howard, but you're picking an argument that has no merit in the first place. Know what I mean?

BTW, season finale of "Rescue Me" airs tonight.

TagMan

hpowders · August 2006

I understand what you are saying.

Great segue into the "Rescue Me" by the way!

blkhemi · August 2006

Mercedes has always let it be known that the Bluetec would initially not be able to be sold to all 50 states off the bat.

The engine is low-sulfur ready and Tier 2 emissions capable.

BUT: The bluetec isn't done. MB will fit the water-vapor canister to the entire system to work in concert with the 4 catalytic converters that will last 1M miles for the '08 m/y. The Germans will have the cleanest diesels on the face of the planet, even outperforming some of those supposed super clean gas motors. Audi's TDI has a similar system on their cars that will be for sale here in '08. And BMW with the diesel-electric powerplant that it is in cahoots with GM on? This is going to be a very interesting upcoming year.

High Maintenance? Nowhere close. If MB does anything right, it's diesel engines.

pat · August 2006

We're here to talk about cars. Not other members of the Forums who like or don't like any given vehicle and not any demographics, anecdotal or staticized (is that a word? It should be!!) about the drivers/owners of said cars.

Let's please keep our comments confined to how we feel about the cars themselves from here on out. There's plenty to debate right there.

hpowders · August 2006

Just went over to Autospies and saw the first TV ad in the new campaign for the 2007 Lexus LS460.
The first comment by somebody who viewed the ad was in essence that the new LS looks too much like a "5-er."
I cleaned his comment up a bit.

A little from the back, perhaps.
Otherwise, I surely don't see it.

tagman · August 2006

If MB does anything right, it's diesel engines.

Man, I'm with you on this.

As Dewey pointed out, this is the engine I'm waiting for. It will be worth the wait, I have little doubt. The question is, which models will get it?

I'm under the impression that we'll find the BlueTec in the E-Class and also in the new GL, but I just have to believe that it will work it's way into the S-Class sooner or later . . . it just plain makes so much sense to me to offer an S-Class diesel.

TagMan

tagman · August 2006

Here's an interesting article about the current sales condition for Lexus in its very own backyard.

Seems odd, but it is nonetheless true.

More interesting is to note the sales data for BMW in Japan.

link title

TagMan

blkhemi · August 2006

The German-spec S-Class offers a higher output version of the 3.0L Bluetec, to the tune of about 260hp and 400lb-ft of torque.

For sure, this will be the engine they'll put in the S and GL, as well as the ML-Class.

The '08 C-Class is due to be the first diesel passenger car to be 50 state certified early next year, just a couple of months ahead of the new A4/A6 TDI's and the 330d that BMW claim they won't send yet the car has been given the green light in the crash standards and EPA certifications earlier this month. Why go through this much trouble to certify a car that you don't plan on selling here? The 530d is scheduled to come also.

There is no question that MB will get 50-state compliance out of the Bluetec as it is that good. The JGC CDI will the first domestic model to be able to be 50-state legal. The Jeep will feature the water-vapor canister that spits out only water from the exhaust pipe. DCX is on a major roll.

killerbunny · August 2006

Regarding: It has been my observation that approximately 70% of LS drivers are senior citizens. On the highway I have seen many of them driving too slowly even though they have this big powerful V-8 at their disposal.
It's what I have found. Sorry if it frustrates you.

From my own experience, 100% of S-class drivers and 80% of 7-series and LS drivers are senior citizens.

Yeah, it does frustrate me. I want one of those NOW, at 30, not when I am at 70. But old people have got the wealth, well... it takes long to accumulate wealth :sick:

tagman · August 2006

And all that will just be the very beginning. It will get even better as time marches on.

The future looks bright for DCX / MB.

TagMan

killerbunny · August 2006

And all that will just be the very beginning. It will get even better as time marches on.
The future looks bright for DCX / MB.

Are you referring to the 30% news?

DB was not in its right mind when becoming DC. Shoulda picked a Japanese company to merge with. Look at Mazda and Nissan now.

Subaru should be a great buy for BMW.

tagman · August 2006

Are you referring to the 30% news?

No. But there are those that frown on that business deal. It's all history now.

I am agreeing with blkhemi that the combined company (like it or not), is poised to do very well with its diesel engines in the immediate future and beyond.

TagMan

houdini1 · August 2006

I was under the impression that this merger was driven by Chrysler and that Chrysler actually acquired DB at a last shot at keeping DB solvent. That was the supposed in-the-know behind the scenes reasoning. MB really did not have a choice.

tagman · August 2006

Allow me to post the history of the merger:

Daimler-Benz merger:

Chrysler merged in 1998 with Daimler-Benz to form DaimlerChrysler AG. This was initially touted as a merger of equals, but within a couple of years the truth was evident: it was a buyout of Chrysler by Daimler-Benz, with the latter being very much the dominant partner. As if on cue, Chrysler went into another of its financial tailspins soon after the merger, greatly depressing the stock price of the merged firm and causing serious alarm at headquarters in Germany, which sent new CEO, Jürgen Schrempp, to take charge. The Plymouth brand was phased out in 2001, and plans for cost-cutting by sharing of platforms and components began. The strongly-Mercedes-influenced Chrysler Crossfire was one of the first results of this program. A return to rear-wheel drive was announced, and in 2004, a new Chrysler 300 using this technology and a new Hemi V8 appeared and became a solid hit. Financial performance began to improve somewhat, with Chrysler now providing a significant share of DaimlerChrysler profits due to restructuring efforts at the Mercedes Car Group. The long-standing partnership with Mitsubishi was dissolved as DaimlerChrysler divested its stake in the firm due to diving Mitsubishi profits and sales worldwide.

On April 7, 2005, a conclusion was announced by U.S. District Judge Joseph Farnnan Jr. presiding over a bench trial in Wilmington, Delaware between Kirk Kerkorian and DaimlerChrysler AG regarding allegations that Jürgen Schrempp of Daimler Benz AG, prior to the 1998 merger, lied and manipulated the Security Exchange Commission and Chrysler Corporation's shareholders (the largest of which was Kirk Kerkorian's Tracinda Corporation) by touting the 1998 merger as a merger of equals, and not an outright acquisition. The judge found in favor of DaimlerChrysler. However, another case (brought by other shareholders, on the same merit as the Kerkorian case) was settled in 2003 for $300 million. The Kerkorian case took over one year to decide.

TagMan

dewey · August 2006

The following link below has to be one of the worst written auto reviews I have ever read in my life . The writer of this Q7 review has more to say about Rottweilers, drug dealers, tattoed types and environmentalism than about the Q7 itself.

SOURCE: THE INDEPENDENT, LONDON EDITION

link title

tagman · August 2006

has to be one of the worst written auto reviews I have ever read in my life

You're not kidding! Worthless trash!

What TagMan would say to the author of that review:

YOU'RE FIRED!

dewey · August 2006

After being fired he can at least put one line on his very short resume:

Knowledge about Rottweilers and their owners.

hpowders · August 2006

Yes. that was a pretty bad review.

Wonder if he will review the LS460?

I can see it now: "a pit-bull in sheep's clothing."

He did like the GS450h.

dewey · August 2006

He did like the GS450h

In that case he has very little knowledge about the Q7 and the GS450H.

lexusguy · August 2006

DB was not in its right mind when becoming DC. Shoulda picked a Japanese company to merge with. Look at Mazda and Nissan now.

Subaru should be a great buy for BMW.

Well, all of the cash they pumped into Mitsubishi went into a giant black hole, never to be seen again. At the time of the DCX merger, Nissan was headed for doom. I don't think that DB could've done nearly the job that Ghosn has turning Nissan around. Nissan could be where Mitsubishi is now if DB had "merged" with them instead.

BMW buy Subaru? I thought most of GM's 20% stake was picked up by Toyota, and they are already building (or there are plans in place to build) Camrys at one of Subaru's under utilized US plants.

dewey · August 2006

Consider BMW's new Remote Park Assist feature. The system allows a driver to stand outside the car and guide the vehicle into a parking spot using a button on a control key that communicates with ultrasound sensors mounted in the bumpers. To avoid mishaps, the car stops immediately if the driver lets go of the button.

SOURCE: WALL STREET JOURNAL

link title

I do sense some kind of disaster here with the above quote. If idrive can make the most trivial tasks complex can you imagine depending on a BMW designed remote Park-Assist system.

In fact I would have more confidence in depending on my 16 year old nephew (still learning to drive and park) to park my car than being fully dependent on a BMW remote system.

hpowders · August 2006

Thanks for the link, but unfortunately, it is only available to WSJ subscribers.

I wouldn't worry too much about the reliability factor. BMW has made significant improvements here, as even CR has noticed.

I feel confident enough in BMW that I will predict right here that within the next 2 years BMW will overtake Lexus in quality and reliability.

There are already cracks showing in Toyota/Lexus' armor.
I look for this trend to continue.

BMW up. Lexus down. :shades:

tagman · August 2006

I feel confident enough in BMW that I will predict right here that within the next 2 years BMW will overtake Lexus in quality and reliability.

While I have previously predicted a slight downtick in Lexus' overall quality, due to the large number of new sophisticated technologies that they are employing . . . I am afraid that I do not agree with your statement at all.

I think it is necessary for BMW to increase its quality and reliability, as it is for MB, and I do expect that to happen . . . but they will not overtake Lexus within two years, if ever, in terms of overall statistical reliability, IMO.

More likely, look for a shrinking reliability gap between the marques, as a result of improved reliability, as well-demonstrated in the last few years by our respected friends at Jaguar.

TagMan

syswei · August 2006

I will predict right here that within the next 2 years BMW will overtake Lexus in quality and reliability.

BMW has improved to the point where, if I could get a 7 with AWD, I would certainly consider it rather than an LS. However, I agree with Tagman on your prediction, and would place money against you.

hpowders · August 2006

I would take that bet.
Almost as sure as those puts I took on the price of crude last week.
That should get me a week at the beach. :shades:

hpowders · August 2006

Funny though. If I was in the market for a high-end sedan, my priorities would definitely shift toward the luxury side of the equation and I wouldn't even consider the 7.
I would be shopping the MB S-Class and possibly the new LS if the reviews get consistently better than what I have already read. I want to read more about the brakes.

I am fully aware of BMW's limitations, and it starts and ends with the interior appointments.

I have never been a cheerleader for the BMW 7, and still feel this vehicle runs contrary to this automaker's "vision."

houdini1 · August 2006

Reminds me of some of the European LS reviews. Maybe it is just their style when they review an auto from a different country that may threaten one of theirs (Range Rover). Note how your european buddy could not resist a dig at us Americans! I do not personally care for this auto myself but this was just a terrible piece of trash.

ivan_99 · August 2006

Passion takes a back seat

tagman · August 2006

ivan_99 - While not a "technical performance" review, as we will get from the car rags, nor is it objective by any means, it does, however, express what some see as the difference between the Japanese Lexus LS and the European HELMs.

TagMan

hpowders · August 2006

Thanks for this informative link, Ivan_99.

The reviewer seems to have more of a bone to pick with Lexus as a brand than actually contributing anything meaningful about the 2007 LS itself. Sounds like he had this review written before he even approached the vehicle.

He writes "The brand still ranks near zero Kelvin on the prestige thermometer" and "Compared to luxury brands like Mercedes Benz, Cadillac(!), BMW and Audi, Lexus has the emotional appeal of a public golf course."

If you're going to review a car, tell us about the car and don't use a review as a thinly disguised personal vendetta against Lexus.

Given this reviewer's pre-conceived distaste for Lexus, the vehicle didn't stand a chance.

Let's hope that we can soon read some unbiased comprehensive reviews of the 2007 LS. We don't need biased hatchet jobs.

designman · August 2006

We don't need biased hatchet jobs.

Well at least we have these forums as a respite from such extremes.

syswei · August 2006

Heh heh! Good one, designman!

hpowders · August 2006

The big difference here is I am free to express my opinion on Edmunds.
I'm a BMW person so what I say is colored by that point of view. It's expected.

I am not being paid by a newspaper to give a supposedly unbiased review which turns out to be nothing more than a personal vendetta against Lexus.

I came away with absolutely nothing from that review except that the reviewer is biased against Lexus as a company.

The LA Times should not have printed it.
It is a disservice to their readers who are about to shop this vehicle.

There is a higher principle at stake here. It's called journalistic integrity.

I may personally dislike the LS, but I will surely defend the right of someone who wants to shop this car to be able to read a comprehensive, unbiased review that will help him in his decision-making.

If I am running a newspaper and one of my music critics hates Verdi, why would I send him to review Aida?

houdini1 · August 2006

Bravo, HP. I said essentially the same thing about the terrible Q7 review. I don't particularly like the looks of the Q7 but I hate vendetta style hatchet jobs.

designman · August 2006

The LA Times should not have printed it.

I would be perfectly happy if newspapers didn't have auto reviews. Most of them register zero on my Richter scale.

hpowders · August 2006

Better things will come when Car and Driver and Road & Track finally review the vehicle.
Perhaps AutoWeek will review it in October. If I see a date, I will post it.

tagman · August 2006

I'm marking this day on my calendar.

headline news: hpowders stands up for OBJECTIVITY!

TagMan

hpowders · August 2006

From BMW Magazine:

"Strategic Vision's Total Quality Index is a measure of new vehicle owner satisfaction. It asks buyers to rate all aspects of the ownership experience, from buying and owning to driving."

"For the second year in a row, BMW's 7 Series topped the Luxury Car segment of SVTQ Awards. BMW repeated as the highest scoring brand, its seventh time to do so in eight years."

Always good to read, although I have never heard of SVTQ.

Has anyone heard of these guys?

Probably 4 BMW middle-management guys sitting at a table.

hpowders · August 2006

I know you get my point and are just having a little fun with me.

I can't believe the editor allowed the Lexus hate-speech to be published under the guise of a "review."

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