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High End Luxury Cars

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well....maybe now!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I know you get my point.

    Yes. And you know I agree with it . . . to a point. Journalists do have a little subjective latitude, as it goes with the territory. But a blatent biased misuse of that latitude is shameful, IMO.

    Even the car rags are sometimes guilty, and I have to wonder why.

    As I've said before . . . stay with the truth and the facts please.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As I've said before . . . stay with the truth and the facts please

    Unfortunately that is never ever going to happen here or in the auto rags. Truth and facts can only prevail when passion is not involved. Unfortunately in the case of autos most auto reviewers (professional or unprofessional) view cars quite passionately and their opinions will be tainted by their biases.

    Show me any auto reviewer that does not have any bias whatsoever and I will show you a reviewer who views cars with complete indifference. Such an indifferent and rational reviewer will end up working for Consumers Report and it is those kind of reviews that I tend to avoid.
  • greasykid1greasykid1 Member Posts: 336
    My reference to high maintenance and increased price refer ONLY the Bluetec emmission systems. Present data states that the urea system will have to be serviced regularly.Present intervals mentioned are 10,000 mi.

    Also the implimentation of urea etc.will increase vehicle costs. This info was covered in detail in a recent copy of the MBA club "STAR" magazine.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    No poster on this forum (myself included) is truly unbiased, so how can we expect journalists to be any different?

    Of course some are more biased than others.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Maybe I'm misunderstood. As I said, there is going to be some latitude. This is due to the bias and passion you speak of. I expect it.

    What I don't like is false statements or twisted data.

    That's different, unacceptable, and THAT is what I was referring to.

    Yes, I agree that the unemotional reviewers belong at Consumer Reports, but I'd swear, IMO, even those guys are biased, too!

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yes I understand.

    With this kind of negative bias from LA Times is it any wonder why GM threated to pull ads from their publications?

    Although I dont think Toyota is going to make the same threat to LA Times.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have never seen such blatant prejudice against an auto company in a vehicle review as this guy expressed in the LA Times against Lexus.

    (Sorry Dewey-most of this is not directed at you.)

    Whether we as posters or whether professional auto reviewers are biased or not completely misses the point.

    Whether I agree with the reviewer's comments about Lexus, the company, also misses the point.

    This guy was using the guise of a review as an excuse to spew vitriol against Lexus the company, when he should have been telling us about the brakes, steering and handling of the 2007 Lexus LS460 to the best of his ability, biases or not.

    Anyway, enough said. Time to move on.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm sorry, but while I agree that Dan Neil went out on a biased limb, I don't see the review as the horror story you are portraying it as. Bad journalism? YES! Horror Story? NO!

    I do think these kinds of reviews are more common than you are suggesting, and we will continue to see more of these biased views, some for the positive as well as the negative. Collectively they paint a more colorful picture, IMO.

    Heck, some of these reviews in the past have been so overly positive that they have made me wonder if the author is on the auto manufacturer's payroll. And others have been nothing more than a re-print of the manufacturer's press release.

    When the dust settles, and many more reviews are in, the Lexus LS460 will be much better understood, and we will all realize that the vehicle has legs to stand on. Ultimately we will all test drive it, and then we will truly know for ourselves what the LS460 really is.

    In the meantime, I'm not about to freak out over a few overly biased reviews (positive or negative). It's nothing new as far as I'm concerned. And, YES, it is time to move on.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The good thing about the Bluetec is that MB will roll-out a CDI-exclusive scheduled and unscheduled maintenance program for the emissions system ONLY. The rest of the car will have scehduled maintenance free.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Not a horror story. Just a platform for his anti-Lexus pokes.

    Telling us that "Lexus ranks near zero Kelvin on the prestige thermometer"-what's that got to do with a review of the 2007 LS? it has no place there and demonstrates that this reviewer cannot be taken seriously.

    Tell me if the brakes are grabby, not that "Lexus has the emotional appeal of a public golf course."

    If these out of place comments annoyed me, I can't begin to imagine what Lexus lovers must feel.

    -273 degrees celsius is pretty cold even for me. :surprise:
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    As a devil's advocate, I would point out that the reviewer said he had no real opportunity to drive the car, so he can't be expected to talk about brakes, steering, etc. However, from the gee-gaws on the car, it does seem obvious that Lexus is bidding to be the big dog in the HELM category, so the reviewer's observation about its perceived prestige is warranted. I mean really, automated parking in a football field-sized parking space, taking well over a minute to accomplish? Gimme a break. This car, fully loaded, is clearly marketed to The Donald wannabees and not to the rest of us.
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Member Posts: 184
    I agree totally - but the Porsche sales guy wouldn't let me offroad the Cayenne when I was test driving it.

    On the other hand, the Land Rover sales guy grinned from ear to ear when I asked to off-road it... so I took a brand new 2006 LR3 HSE demo in behind some houses that were being built in a new development near the dealership.. the area where the bulldozers and service vehicles go... anyways, it had rained that morning, and it was all mud and ruts and sloppy, slippery goodness....

    It does accelerate as well as pretty much any other HELM SUV - considering it weighs in around 5700 lbs(depending on options), but it can go places where few others dare to tread.

    Hence the reason why I now have a new Land Rover, instead of a new Cayenne, or BMW X3/X5 sitting in the driveway.

    Thinking of doing the Moab, Utah Land Rover experience soon too... looks spectacular!

    [Side Note] I didn't buy the demo. ;)

    After I got back into the sales center, the sales guy said that while we were out, some couple had been dealing with the other sales guy and had bought the demo... I brought it back coverred in mud everywhere - even over the roof, and buried in 24" of muck up the sides of the wheel wells. You shoulda seen their faces when I drove back on the lot with it! Absolutely Priceless.

    /DA
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Hmmm...I guess the same could be said about Mercedes and Chrysler. Why won't some people admit that? Some seem to be obsessed with this notion concerning Toyota/Lexus but they must get nervous when they see the R7 sitting alongside a Pacifica.

    Because there is nothing to admit, Chrysler and Mercedes don't have a image problem between the brands like Toyota and Lexus does. Only the ill-informed would think a Mercedes is a Chrysler in better clothes. Similar in design and them, but nothing else and one isn't an extension of the other. Unlike the R and Pacifica, the LS and Camry look the same inside and out, right down to their dash designs.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm not sure why this is big news now, it has been known for months that the Bluetec wouldn't be sold in all 50 states. That is why MB has been saying 2008 because by then maybe the EPA will approve the urea injection that makes up Mercedes' "Adblue" system.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/FREE/60828027/1041

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm sure that you are correct about Bluetech;however it will have a more complicated emmissions system that will incease the cost of the car and be more expensive to maintain. Practically the same performance and milage as the current CDI.

    Yes, but only a few dollars hardly worth mentioning and the technology will be cheaper for MB to spread across literally their entire model range compared to getting the old I6 to meet new standards.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    We are talking about cars, not interior decorations, furnitures or toy cars. What matters most for cars is platform and drive train. MB and Chrysler _is_ (one and the same company) doing a lot of platform and drive train sharing . . . probably more to come in the future simply because that's how economy of scale works. LS and Camry are certainly far more different from each other than, say Crossfire from SLK.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "The LS and Camry look the same inside and out, right down to their dash designs."

    Well, I've seen the new Camry and from what I saw of the new LS on MotorWeek, the LS is far better looking than the Camry.
    It isn't even close, even though there is a distinct family resemblance.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well, I've seen the new Camry and from what I saw of the new LS on MotorWeek, the LS is far better looking than the Camry. It isn't even close, even though there is a distinct
    family resemblance.

    True, but as you state the resemblance is there, which was my point, a family resemblance that shouldn't be there if Toyota and Lexus truly have seperate design teams/facilities. Same thing with their interiors. Same layout/design, but of course the LS takes it up quite a few notches.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes the resemblance is there. That's for sure.
    The Camry, Avalon and LS obviously come from the same design team.

    However, the design dramatically improves as one proceeds from the Camry to the Avalon. The leap isn't as great as one proceeds from the Avalon to the new LS, IMO.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I'm not sure why this is big news now, it has been known for months that the Bluetec wouldn't be sold in all 50 states.

    Oops my post was a bit dated. I was under the false impression that this was news.

    At least in my case it doesnt matter whether I live in the province of Ontario (looser emissions regulations) or California since I have no intention upon getting a Blutec Benz before 2008. I will be patiently waiting for the future generation of diesel E Class Wagons.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What matters most for cars is platform and drive train. MB and Chrysler _is_ (one and the same company) doing a lot of platform and drive train sharing . . .

    What do you define as a lot?

    As far a I know there is not one single case of platform sharing between MB and Chrysler. The current generation SLK does not share the same platform as the Crossfire. The Crossfire is based on a previous generation SLK.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ford Motor Co. said Thursday it is exploring the possible sale of all or part of its Aston Martin luxury brand as the company works to free up cash to pay for its North American turnaround plan.

    But it said no decisions have been made about its other luxury car brands which include Jaguar and Land Rover.

    "As part of our ongoing strategic review, we have determined that Aston Martin may be an attractive opportunity to raise capital and generate value," Bill Ford, the automaker's chairman and chief executive, said in a statement.

    SOURCE: WALL STREET JOURNAL
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    The current Chrysler 300 uses the old MB E platform. The new 300 will use the new E platform.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The current 300 is based on a old E platform?

    That is news to me.

    The new 300 will use the new E platform.

    That is even newer news to me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The new 300 will use the new E platform.

    That is even newer news to me.

    All of the Chryslers currently using Mercedes parts are last gen (SLK320\Crossfire, E430\300). Thats about to change, Chrysler and Mercedes are going to get much closer, with platform and engine sharing.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    All of the Chryslers currently using Mercedes parts are last gen (SLK320\Crossfire, E430\300). Thats about to change, Chrysler and Mercedes are going to get much closer, with platform and engine sharing.

    Depending upon the actual real-life sharing strategy, of course, I suspect that the results of such a move would be more likely a benefit to Chrysler, as opposed to hurting MB.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    PART$ $HARING MAKE$ $ENSE.

    I agree Tag, this should definitey benefit Chrysler. I also think the Dr. Z ads would be good if only everyone knew who he is.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    MAKE$ $ENSE FOR CHRY$LER NOT FOR MERCEDE$.

    Unless ofcourse the future 300 is based on the current E Class platform. By then there will be a new generation platform of the E Class that will be different from the platform of the future 300 . If that happens then the mystique of MBs will be preserved.

    Otherwise MB gets the short end of the stick and their distinct reputation will be tarnished and many will ponder the reasons for spending the extra $$$ for a Benz.

    I myself have difficulty understanding how anyone could choose a Lexus ES over a V6 Camry. :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I myself have difficulty understanding how anyone could choose a Lexus ES over a V6 Camry.

    Toyota could probably offer a "super luxury package" for the V6 Camry with similar equipment as the ES, with a price of maybe $36K. No one would buy it. Why would they, when they could get an Acura TL for the same money? The Lexus gets you the better warranty, infinitely better service department, and of course the Lexus badge that people are willing to pay for. If you don't want it, dont buy.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Lexus gets you the better warranty, infinitely better service department, and of course the Lexus badge that people are willing to pay for. If you don't want it, dont buy.

    LOL and what would the MB badge give you over a Chrysler?

    Better service? Better reliability? I dont think so!!

    I hate to say this but this whole idea of platform sharing between Chrysler/MB platform sounds incredibly self- destructive for the Stuttgart side of DB.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You could be right. I can see it going either way or it could have no effect at all. I think most of the buying public is blind to platform sharing anyway.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I hate to say this but this whole idea of platform sharing between Chrysler/MB platform sounds incredibly self- destructive for the Stuttgart side of DB.

    Disagree. It's a benefit to Chrysler.

    Unless . . . it goes beyond the platform and . . . we start to see Dodge "Hemi" engines in the MB's (lol)! :D

    I can see it now . . . no more AMG needed . . . introducing the new S-Class Hemi.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I guess I just don't get your point about the Camry and the LS looking the same, or having a resemblance. Why do you care? Why does this bother you so much? Is the E Class diminished because Chysler now uses their platform? Not really. It is just good financial planning and trying to save money to make a better car. Please get over this.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I hate to say this but this whole idea of platform sharing between Chrysler/MB platform sounds incredibly self- destructive for the Stuttgart side of DB.

    It all depends on what a “platform” is.

    I remember reading a discussion on the similarities between a Volvo S40 and the Mazda 3. They officially share the same platform; but have different engines, HVAC, suspensions, floorboards, insulation…practically everything is different.

    I think a “platform” really doesn’t cost much to reproduce…it’s the R&D of it that drives up the costs…so sharing just that would make sense.

    While I would like to be able to buy an MB E class for 24K I don’t think you’ll ever be able to…irregardless of what badge is on the front.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Let me chime in on this just a little. I think it is typical to see design themes that proliferate throughout an entire marque's model line up. We see it with Mercedes, clearly, from the C-Class right up to the S-Class. We see it with BMW and with Audi and with Jaguar.

    However, the point is that Toyota is a DIFFERENT marque than Lexus, even if it is the same parent company, and whether or not platforms are shared, the styling and design similarities do not necessarily need to be so similar.

    So there is some merit to the idea of creating further distance between the Lexus and Toyota marques in terms of style and design, regardless of any platform sharing.

    TagMan
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    The MB badge tells people that you are rich.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The MB badge tells people that you are rich.

    One reason that some buy a MB, perhaps, or other prestige vehicle, but certainly not the only reason. After all, Mercedes are expensive, and financial clout is a pre-requisite for the most part . . . unlike, say, a Toyota Corolla.

    But, you'd be amazed at how many rich people drive economy cars!!!!!

    That logic applies to anything that is expensive. A yacht or private jet also say you are rich, wouldn't you agree? But a lot of rich people fly coach!!

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I hate to say this but this whole idea of platform sharing between Chrysler/MB platform sounds incredibly self- destructive for the Stuttgart side of DB.

    I thought about mentioning that. If its done right, I think they can get away with it. Sharing V6s is ok, many automakers do that. V8s however, should remain M-B exclusive.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    So there is some merit to the idea of creating further distance between the Lexus and Toyota marques in terms of style and design, regardless of any platform sharing.

    Why would there be merit in this? Toyota/Lexus seems to be doing just fine with the current arrangement.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with Tagman. If a company is going to ask customers to pay more for a product, they will probably have greater success, everything else being equal, if that product is differentiated from the lower-priced product...and that includes differentiation of appearance.

    If Rolex and Timex were owned by the same corporate parent and you bought a Rolex, wouldn't you want it to look very different from a Timex?

    As a consumer, I don't mind platform/parts sharing between Lexus and Toyota, even though it may hurt Lexus' prestige a bit. But I do feel that there should be more of an effort to diffentiate on the basis of appearance.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I guess I can see your point a little bit. But this is so far down on my priority list in making a buying decision that it hardly matters. That's all I'm saying.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Actually, exterior styling isn't at the top of my priority list either. I figure, most of the time is spent INSIDE the car, not admiring it from outside. If I were single maybe it would be a different story.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Actually, exterior styling isn't at the top of my priority list either.

    Wow! That's quite a departure from the vast majority of consumers. Single or not. ;)

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If styling was my top priority, I don't think I'd be a Lexus fan!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If styling was my top priority, I don't think I'd be a Lexus fan!

    lol :D . . . Is this "true confessions"?

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Is this "true confessions"?

    I take pride in being intellectually honest, not one of the "my favorite brand can do no wrong" types, both germancarfan and lexican, that are all too common on this board and the 2007 LS board.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, the "germancarfan" vs "lexican" needs to stop - let's get away from this us vs. them from here on out.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    We're trying Pat, we're trying!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    There was an AP report out today that suggested Ford is in the process of selling off bits and pieces or maybe all of Aston Martin to the highest bidder.

    The report suggested that automaker can no longer dump cash into the not to profitable brand. While other PAG members may be spared, like Volvo and Land Rover, Jaguar is up for discussion

    The company has long said that Jaguar is not performing as designed when the takeover was implemented in '89. The lower profits over the years has left the parent company up in arms over what to do about the cash hog.

    I got a brilliant idea for both. For Aston, the 4-door sedan MUST BE BUILT!! With even Porsche going 4-doors, there is absolutely no holding back now. Also expand the line-up, with only 3 cars, it's a major struggle. Altho the V8 Vantage is wonderful ride, it ain't no 911. Tweak it some more. The DB9 needs to seperate itself more from it's forebears for more distinction.

    Jaguar, let's see: First off, take the X and S-Type's out back and put them out of their misery. DO NOT USE A FORD CLONE PRODUCT, as is the case with the X's Mondeo, and the S' Lincoln LS/Ford T-Bird. Build a sporty LPS that can fully compete with the 3 Series, A4, IS, G35, and TL seriously. The S-Type is a definete must do. Use one of those wonderful Euro chassis that we Americans can only dream of for the next S-Type.

    Easier said than done, I know. But without fresh product, you're doomed to fail. At least GM appears to be on the right track with brand finally putting priorities first. The brand will take Pontiac all RWD and Chevy will go back to the roots with Impala heading upmarket in price and size. Cadillac is said to take the next DTS way upmarket with the 3rd gen Northstar making 400+ hp out of the box.

    Times a changin for the domestics. For the best hopefully.
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