High End Luxury Cars

ejerod · October 2002

Ladies and Gentlemen. I own 2 of MB's finest. The 2002 S500 with AMG Sport Package, and the 2003 SL500 hardtop convertible. I also own the 2002 Lexus GS300 which I think is the best car that Lexus makes overall. All of the things you guys are arguing about are subjective. I personally didn't buy the LS430 because I think it looks too bland. IMO Lexus did the same thing that Infinity did with the Q45 before it's recent renovation. They were afraid of alienating their client base and went for safe and bland instead of being creative and going for beauty and excitement. The numbers tell the story well. The Q45 lost a huge market segment, ( and Lexus isn't meeting their sales expectations with the LS430 either. The other cars, the RX, GS, ES and SC's are selling gangbusters) . Mercedes on the other hand has been bold and a leader in not only technological innovation, ie Brake by wire technology, keyless go, radar controlled cruise control , 16 seconds to go from a hard top touring sedan to a convertible, etc. MB has led the way in styling. The S Class, E Class, SL class and others are the most stunning looking cars on the road. Are they perfect ? None of them are. I for one don't like that MB still uses cd rom technology for the nav system. At the same time I hate the looks of the LS430. It's bland and doesn't generate excitement when I look at it. The wheels on the base model LS430 look like something you'd see on a Ford Escort. The GS on the other hand looks like it performs. Exciting, quick,etc. I have the new GS 300 with the Sport Package and the shifting paddles built into the wheels. I'm still young. I'm 39 and people still card me when I go out because I look like a teen. Everywhere I go when I use the valet my cars are displayed at the front door, while the LS430's are relegated to the other end of the lot... All these cars have their pros and cons.. one has to decide what turns him/her on, and buy what he/she likes.. the opinions of others don't really matter... Happy motoring..

glamourlife · October 2002

Great Post Ejerod. Spoken like a person with real experience with luxury makes.

ljflx · October 2002

Lexus blew away the sales targets in 2001 (32% over) and exceeded them again in 2002 and is off to a good start in 03.

1487 · October 2002

I dont think the GS is selling like gangbusters. I dont think it has had a good year since it's first two on the market. I feel its styling has held it back from teh type of success lexus expected. In addition, the cost of the car kept creeping towards its superior German competition at it doesnt look so good at those prices.

The LS430 is very bland in spite of its nicely executed interior. That car has some of the worst rims on any luxury car. I dont think I have ever seen a person under 65 driving an LS430. I dont think there's anything wrong with older buyers but I find it interesting that Lexus is never criticized for designing cars that appeal to retirees while cadillac and lincoln are constantly ridiculed for that.

airmatic · October 2002

thanks for telling me that. that really puzzled me. So i guess that the chrome strips on the front and rear bumper are exclusive to the Li model then...

also saw a millenium silver LS430 this morning; shocked by the rims (they were the 16-inch). One negative thing i have about the car is that it reminded me about the enormously large previous-generation S_class. In my opinion, I don't think that the front and rear of the LS430 match that well, as opposed to the S-class or Jaguar.

carnaught · October 2002

...still not produced any media examples to support your contentions in your post #1687.
Your examples just comment on the improvement in current model M.B.'s which I agree with. I also feel these are Mercedes' responses to stiff Lexus competition.

glamourlife · October 2002

First of all, read my post again and you will see I did provide several examples to support my assertions. Secondly, I do not work for you, and it is not my job to produce things for you on demand. Finally, As I have stated repeatedly, Lexus is not forcing MB to do anything. MB is the leader, risk taker, and trendsetter. Lexus cannot make a move without seeing what MB or BMW will or already have done.

Now instead of throwing words like Silly, fanatic, etc. around, let's use real world experience. The few owners of Lexus and MB vehicles who have chimed in have backed up most if not all of my opinions. again, I own a Lexus as my daily driver. It is reliable and luxurious, however I would liken it's luxury more to Cadillac and Lincoln than to BMW or Mercedes. Do any of you who worship at the altar of Lexus have real world experience with any of their models?

pcbrs · October 2002

Glamourlife-

I was taken aback by your rather sharp response. I don't think carnaught was trying to be rude by his comment, and I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment. You really need to step back from this forum, and realize we mean no offense. We're just here to discuss and exchange our ideas and opinions. So take a deep breath, and let's continue our friendly dialogue.

I for one have real world experiences with many brands. My parents bought the LS430 upon my recommendation, because an evaluation of the BMW 7 and new S class revealed them to be not as luxurious... in MY opinion. The Lexus ride is soft, luxurious, and quiet... just like the way my mom likes it. The interior was by far of the highest quality. I've spent my share of time in a S, and the cheap, gimmicky plastic got to me. The 7 series was over complicated, and looked like it would be frought with technical issues... which was confirmed. The A8's interior, however, was a different story. My mom has driven Acuras and BMWs in the past, and this is by far her favorite. Some of my friends are also quite financially well off, so I've had the fortune of sampling many different MB, BMW, and Audi products, including the SL55, SLK320, 745li, etc.

I'm getting a BMW 330ci in December, because it's the right car for me. The interior isn't as luxurious or is of a caliber of a Lexus. It's known for its interior rattling, especially with the Sport Package and Harmon Kardon upgrade, both of which I have opted for. The HK upgrade really pales to the Mark Levinson system. But, I can live a less luxurious interior, given it's more athletic performance. I guess we all have our own assessments. But mine seem to follow most magazines, the sources you value so much.

ejerod-
I respectfully disagree with some of the things you said. I found the GS300 to be underpowered for my taste, but I guess you can drive the SL for more spirited driving. The LS has been exceeding sales expectations, and has been consistently outselling the S, since its introduction. Good night.

Jeff

ljflx · October 2002

I have Lexus vehicles including the LX470 which is one hell of an suv - imo - which is why I took it. Do you think it is not a great truck and if not why? You have your choice of suspension settings and the luxury is top notch. Cadillac is not in this league right now but they are rising.

MB - You honestly think they didn't respond to Lexus? They'd be in sad shape today if they didn't. The business market of the 90's expanded the luxury market and MB would have cleaned up if Lexus wasn't around. Being a car fan is one thing but understanding the underlying fundamentals of a business and competition is another. When you see an LS430 on the road there is a very good bet that if Lexus wasn't around that would have been an S-430/500 sale or an E-500 sale. The GS sales would have been a lot of E-320 sales. Did Lexus hurt MB? For sure. Did MB respond to the competition well? Absolutely. But the move to younger buyers of cars at this price point is not a safe bet given the economy is so different than it was in the last 7-8 years.

Age factor - I see many a young driver behind the wheel of LS400/430's. It's Cadillac and Lincoln that still have the older demographics.

brtmd · October 2002

How wonderfully amazing. "merc1" has been either cloned or reincarnated as "glamourlife". Same m.o., same tactics, and their contributions seem equally useful.
ljflx: I'm 36 and behind the wheel of an LS (being such a youngster probably explains why I opted for the sport suspension)

glamourlife · October 2002

Ljflx- Sure some people cross shop MB and Lexus, but they are really Apples and Oranges. Lexus products are much softer and geared towards luxury and comfort first. Lexus offers superior value so people motivated by price or who can't afford the added expense usually opt for Lexus. Lincoln, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadillac have suffered the most from the emergence of Lexus, not Mercedes and BMW.

BMW and MB both are enjoying record sales years, and have done so for several consecutive years. Moreover every "comparable" MB model is at least $10K-$15K more than Lexus, yet MB still manages to sell more than its fair share. Lexus may look to MB and BMW for direction as they always have, but they have stolen sales from Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Lincoln mostly. Lexus is probably one of the most important reasons Oldsmobile lost so much market share and shut down.

Competition is good for any industry, however you cannot foolishly assert that every LS430 driving down the road is one less S-Class. That is ridiculous. The LS starts at $55K, you can't even think about an S-Class for less than $75K. A $20K spread is reason enough for many buyers to look at Lexus. But how would you explain record sales and profits for MB if Lexus is supposedly stealing so much share? The S-Class is in direct competition with the A8 and 7-series mostly. Sure the Q45, Deville, RL, etc. can all claim to be in the competitive set, but they are really LS430 competitors. Lexus by and large is an old person's car. It is just a modern interpretation of what Buick, Lincoln, and Cadillac used to do so well before Lexus emerged. Create plush, comfortable, and luxurious cars. However, the lack of innovation inherent since the company's founding causes it to be lacking in "Soul" and leadership.

Again, I ask anyone to name one Lexus automobile innovation? When MB can point to ABS, Crumple zones, Stability control, distronic cruise control, sensotronic brakes, and a host of other innovations, that fully illustrates it is playing in a different league altogether than Lexus.

pcbrs · October 2002

Glamourlife-

I'm sorry. I can't help but chuckle a little at your latest comment. You're right. Not everyone shopping for an LS430 would've bought an MB S-Class. My parents certainly could've purchased one, but chose not to, but this isn't always the case. For the price of a nicely loaded LS430, one could also purchase an E500. Price isn't always the motivation, as I know several people who cross shop between all those luxury brands you mentioned.

Now that several people have successfully refuted your questionable assertion that Lexus interiors are not up to par, you seem to be trying to distract the issue with subjective statements like lack of "Soul". So how are we supposed to argue which car has more prestige or soul? Sounds like a very shallow, and rather pretentious subject to me, that can never really be objectively argued anyway. Just to humor you, I would argue that Lexus has shown remarkable leadership in improving the quality of dealership service. MB and BMW still have a lot to learn, and catch up on. The Optitron gauges on the LS430 are also the best designed gauge clusters in the market period... IMHO. This is going back to your original comment about LS430 interior quality.

-Jeff

merc1 · October 2002

You asked me whether or not glamourlife's post was a put down or not. Yes in the simplest form of the word, but I do the same thing...to the BRAND, not the owners. You and other Lexus onwers/fans put down MB owers by questioning their "common sense" and basically calling them idiots for purchasing anything other than a LS430. I know you know the difference. Now you can't blame me for this round, all I did was post about the new Jaguar XJ (lol).

brtmd,

Ha ha, funny. Not me.

___________________________________

We all have argued this "innovation" thing before, and it's best said that Lexus isn't an innovator. At least when it comes to technology, design, styling or any of the things German cars do so well.

Yes they raised the bar on quality, and the whole business of selling and servicing cars. I can *see* where some would see this as an "innovation". However, when it comes to the cars themselves they'll never win over the enthusiast like MB, BMW or Audi do. Never. All the reliability, mints, carwashes, soft leather, ML stereos, and DVD based Nav systems in the won't change this. The fact that so many Lexus fans points to Nav systems and leather quality is very telling about whats important to them, nothing wrong with those things, but they're obviously not enough to sway the many that still buy German cars.

M

pcbrs · October 2002

Merc1-

You make some interesting points. You're right. I would argue they are all important. And they are all areas of innovation. Some areas are more important than others for different people. I'm giving up luxury and superior quality build with the BMW (over Lexus), but it's more fun more me to drive. My priorities may change when I'm much older though. Who knows?

Jeff

ljflx · October 2002

I know 7 people who drive Lexus automobiles and SUV's. They are all most likely MB buyers if not for Lexus. They are not even remotely thinking of the domestic brands and most importantly they all come out of MB,BMW or Audi in the first place, and in some cases for many years. They all make 6 figures and in a few cases 7 figures. These are not people buying Buicks - even for their kids who are reaching driving ages. The average income for LS430, LX470 and SC430 buyers is above $250,000 per year - same as MB S-class buyers.

Lexus's whole marketing posture is aimed at the high-end German brands most notably MB. When was the last time you saw Lexus market against the domestic brands?

brtmd · October 2002

Based only on my personal experience from owning cars by BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, and now Lexus, the Lexus innovation in the luxury car category is quality and reliability. The innovation of "value" in this vehicle segment was also pointed out above.

The competition: Again based only on my recent personal experience of shopping for and purchasing a vehicle--I cross shopped the new 7 Series, the S class, and the LS. Apparently, I totally forgot to look at Lincoln, Cadillac, Buick, and Oldsmobile.

ljflx · October 2002

I must admit I also thought that might be you in drag having some fun.

carnaught · October 2002

....."I do not work for you and it is not my job to produce things for you on demand..."

Lighten up man....I'm not "sweating you" . (LOL)

I was just asking you to substantiate that now (infamous) previous post (#1687) of yours. Your response seems to be predicated on being hostile, perhaps as a diversion. When one makes provocative comments, one should be expected to defend them, that's all. Now let's just take a chill pill.

glamourlife · October 2002

provided? I put up an article from Edmunds that questioned the build quality of the LS. Again, reliability and shiny interiors do not equal durability and build quality. Yes Lexus may have more plush and comfortable interiors, but their build quality is not superior to BMW or MB. Please re-read the following article I put up already:

....And another on the flagship LS430 from Edmunds, "So nearly perfect is this vehicle that the few nits I have to pick seem silly, save one. For example, the plastic parking brake release exhibits too much gloss. The front passenger airbag isn't seamlessly integrated into the dash or hidden behind the lovely rosewood decorating the panel above the dual-tiered glovebox. Some climate and stereo functions are bundled with the navigation screen, ridiculous given the amount of space gone underutilized on the center stack. And the remote keyless entry fob for this premium car provides poorly marked buttons that are difficult to see in dim light.

The big surprise, however, was how much creaking, rattling and buzzing the cabin of our test vehicle exhibited. Idling at a light, I detected a barely discernable buzz from the rear headliner area. On a rough side street near our office, the interior emitted damped and low-frequency, but still evident, rattles and squeaks. A couple of sharper bumps resulted in creaking from the dash. Considering how well Lexus nailed the rest of the car, this apparent build-quality problem was truly surprising.

Derivative best describes the styling, which to my eye incorporates a combination of past and present Mercedes-Benz cues. The overall effect is pleasing, if unremarkable. I prefer the more forceful appearance of a BMW 7 Series, sleek look of a Mercedes-Benz S-Class, classic image of a Jaguar XJ8 or refined visage of an Audi A8. ...
© Edmunds.com, Inc. "

This article fully illustrates that the LS430 is a wonderful vehicle, but it is not on the same level "BUILD QUALITY" as its aspirational targets.

And brtmd, of course you no longer would even consider Buick, Lincoln, Oldsmobile, etc. That is entirely due to the fact that Lexus has supplanted what those brands once represented to American car buyers. My assertion is that the fact that you looked at Lexus as your alternative to German brands and not the former American luxury brands is indicative of where Lexus has gained their share.

glamourlife · October 2002

I already defended the statement with several examples. If you choose to ignore them, that is on you. I have no reason to cause a diversion. I own a Lexus, and I will readily admit that it is a very luxurious, comfortable, reliable, and capable ride. However in my experiences and as the articles I cut and pasted illustrate, it is not some marvel of engineering or perfection of MB, BMW, and Audi as you all are so quick to believe.

It has a recurring and nagging buzz that the dealer is loathe to even admit to. It also has way less power and performance than any of its competitors(Range Rover, G500, Navigator, Escalade, X5, etc.).

Again, I have stated repeatedly in every post that I have made that Lexus' are reliable, good values, and very luxurious. However, that does not mean they are innovative in styling, performance, design, safety, or any of the other truly relevant characteristics of automobiles. Furthermore they have a dated portfolio of vehicles with no new product news except for the GX470 and rumored demise of my LX470.

ljflx · October 2002

An Edmunds reviewer prefers edgier styling and that is a verdict for you. Styling is a personsal and subjective opinion and nothing more. The guy writes "so perfect is the car that the few nits he has are silly" and that is a poor verdict??. He states that his car exhibited a lot of creaking, rattling and buzzing. Now I wonder if that buzzing was the same "barely" discernible buzz he heard from the rear headliner.

If you read the S-class board you'll see many complaints about rattles and squeaks. If you read the LS430 board you'll see that our biggest problems are coins and cd's sloshing around making noise. That and the stereo is the only interior noise you really hear. Maybe the Edmunds reviewer had a bad car. I'm sure Lexus cranks one out now and then. I haven't had a rattle in my cars since I started buying Lexus in 95 and I hardly think that the Edmunds car is representative of LS430's being squeak or rattle prone. Sorry - the body build on this car is spectacular.

This all started with you saying Lexus wasn't in this league and had a cheap interior. Keep trying - I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you somewhere sooner or later.

glamourlife · October 2002

Funny how you conveniently left out AMG!!!!! Its easy and irrelevant to compare base model MB's with top of the line Lexus. The LS430 is supposed to be the Lexus flagship. A more accurate comparison would be with the S55 or even the S500, not the entry level S430. The new E500 and impending E55 exposes the GS430 for the pretender fake BMW/MB wannabe that it really is. And let's not even bring up M3's, M5's, S4's, S6's, or S8's. Lexus' are way underpowered and out of their league compared to any of these cars.

The LX470 has 230HP. You don't think that's underpowered for your flagship SUV? Compare that with an Escalade, G55, Range Rover, X5 4.6, or any other premium SUV.

Infiniti, Acura, Jaguar, and Cadillac are creating more innovative product than Lexus, And BMW, MB, and Audi are in another league.

And all of you who claim to have purchased the Lexus over "competitive" BMW, Audi, and Mercedes models know that only one factor was the key reason, PRICE! All I can say is happy motoring to all of you. Enjoy your cars and keep telling yourself how much better they are than any car ever created. If you repeat it long enough, it might actually come true. I doubt it though.

airmatic · October 2002

if Lexus built a LS-car comparable to the S55, it would probably cost the same price as the S-class or 745Li. Then, the buyer would probably want to buy the BMW.

The LS430 only comes in one model, whereas the S-class comes in 4 in the US. It cannot compare to the S55 AMG in terms of performance. however, In my opinion, the LS430 is the perfect balance of power, luxury, reliability and most importantly, VALUE.

In fact, have you ever driven a S500? In my opinion, I find the LS430 at the same par, if not, faster and more nimble than the S500. My friend has a 2002 S600, and to be quite honest with you, I would feel just fine behind the wheel of a LS430 (LS430 has plenty of power; the S600's performance is a bit too much for me, and in my opinion, it isn't worth for the car-buyer to pay above $100,000 for it).

Can we all just get along, and stop fighting over a discussion that is now pointless will never end?

I have owned my S430 for over about 6 months now, and I am now regretting that I didn't purchase the accesory AMG wheels. I didn't think that paying $5000 was justifiyable, so I opted for the standard wheels. Now, at my kids school, there are several S-class with chrome AMG rims. I am told that standard AMG are about $2,400 and chrome are $5,000. I am considering whether to get the alloy or chrome AMG... Is it worth paying almost double of the alloys to get chrome?...

brtmd · October 2002

You are absolutely right, I couldn't be happier. As for all of your other gross generalizations, they are just that. Your posts seem to be geared towards one purpose only, to incite an argument over largely subjective claims. You make blanket statements that are simply incredible. You seem to feel you are a reader of minds, yet I have been unable to find any common ground with your statements--a sign of argument for the sake of argument. As for me, I will continue to try to speak from my own experience and not pretend to be omnipotent.

airmatic: agreed--pointless; I like the chrome wheels on my LS and have thought they look sharp on the S class--but they are expensive for something essentially aesthetic. However, there may be a very minor performance benefit moving to the AMG wheels if they reduce unsprung weight.

ljflx · October 2002

Glamourlife - what do you think the annual worldwide sales (not US but worldwide) of AMG cars are? What percentage of MB sales do you think AMG sales represent? If you know the answer than you know the meanning of the word irrelevant.

It is ridiculous to bring in a virtually custom made and very low production car vs. a stock car in any comparative power testing. Get real. By the way you only need 5 digits for worldwide AMG sales and the first digit starts with a number lower than 2. Now instead of you relying on AMG's to win your power argument lets compare the base MB models that represent 98% of their US and worldwide sales. By the way a 360hp LS car is due in soon - as a stock car. Antiosana forgot to mention that.

brtmd - your right. She's just inciting an argument and has no basis for her position. It's time to end this nonsense and watch the WS.

brtmd · October 2002

I have to admit it has been a more enjoyable series than I expected. Enjoy.

carnaught · October 2002

.....married to merc1 or are you one and the same person?

zachmbenzfvr · October 2002

Would any of you give their opinions why Mercedes-Benz is only keeping the 4.3 liter V8 for the S430?

merc1 · October 2002

Now I want you to very carefully read glamourlife's posts very carefully and tell me if we truly sound like the same person or are linked in any way. I never, ever said Lexus has cheap interiors, never...which was the basis of their argument.

ljflx,

I agree with most of what you've said, but I hardly think the average LS430 buyers income is the same as an S-Class' buyers. I think 55K is a big difference from 80K. I agree they're the same group more or less, but not always.

M

pat · October 2002

Let's debate our opinions with lowering ourselves to name calling and accusations.

Just because one of you holds a different opinion that another of you does not make either of you wrong, and it certainly doesn't make either of you deserving of these derogatory comments that are being flung around.

Please support your opinions without attacking others.

Thank you.

1487 · October 2002

i dont know who was saying that lexus whurt the US lux makers more than the Germans but that is false. Even in 1990 people didnt see US makes as equal to German imports and therefore the people who rushed to the Lexus dealership were people who would have considered a MB or a BMW (although that is a stretch) not a cadillac. Lexus made a big splash but i dont see them gaining any more ground a this point. Lexus offered you a MB like car with a better price and better quality. Their quality is still superior to German cars but people are over that now. MB, BMW and Audi are coming out with better products all the time and by this time next year Cadillac's lineup will be solid. Lexus needs something to stand out from the pack. If you subtract one vehicle, the RX300, their sales arent even that impressive. None of the other luxury makes are so reliant on one model, except maybe cadillac with the deville. The RX300 was innovative at the time and is selling well as far as I know but the compact lux SUV market is much tougher now than it was in '98. In other words the RX's best days are behind it and they will need another hit vehicle to sustain that #1 or #2 position. I think next year BMW will be #1 and Cadillac will be #2 in sales.

1487 · October 2002

ps.

WHo said young people drive LS430s? where do you live? I have NEVER seen a young person behind the wheel of an LS430. I have never heard a young person even refer to an LS430 as a car they would desire.

footie · October 2002

I think it was Glamourlife that said that Edmunds had a review of the LS430 where the driver said it had rattles and buzzes.

I read everything on the Edmunds board for the 2001 and 2002 LS430 and found nothing but effusive superlatives gushing from the reviewers.

One Edmund's reviewer loved the way it handled! Even on twisty Molholland Drive. Can you imagine that?

ljflx · October 2002

I also remember nothing but superlatives in the reviews but I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

maxhonda99 · October 2002

1487, Lexus sales are not reliant on the RX300. Lexus was reliant a few years back when the previous ES300 was aging but the RX300 thru calender year 2002 makes up 31% of Lexus sales.

Here's a breakdown:
RX300 31%
ES300 31%
LS430 11%
SC430 6%
GS300/400 7%
IS300 9%
LX470 4%

That shows Lexus sales are hardly reliant on just the RX300. And remember, The GX470 is right around the corner, as well as a new redesigned RX300 and LX470 not to mention for 2004 a new GS-series.

I love the pesimistic attitude that people have about Lexus; comments like "If you take away this one model, Lexus sales are nothing", or "BMW, Mercedes, AUdi are coming up with better products all the time and by next year Cadillac's lineup will be solid". Do you forget one thing? BMW, Mercedes Audi aren't the only ones coming up with better products, Lexus products are also constantly improving as are now Infiniti's. Lexus expanding product line is constantly expanding and becoming more solid year by year, as next year will be the intro. of the GX470 as well as all new RX300, '04 the GS-series and for '04 the SC330. ANd really what is going to make Cadillac's lineup so darn impressive next year? The CTS I like, it's a very nice car. But the SRX cross-over will come out. ANd a new Seville for '04 I believe. That's not really enough to catapult them over Lexus in sales, especially considering what I pointed out above about new model introductions coming next year.

I have never heard a young person even refer to an LS430 as a car they would desire." I also don't hear may your people refer to a Deville or a Seville as car they would desire. There is a better chance of a young one desiring a LS430 over a Deville or Seville, for example.

ljflx · October 2002

Maybe we should take the top stock or highest bank account out of their personal holdings.

Now can you imagine what Microsoft would be without the windows operating system or what Coca Cola would be witout coke. Why should that be any different given the brand leadership of those products to the respective companies. Ridiculous.

brtmd · October 2002

A philosophical question for 1487: How old do you have to be to be young (does that make any sense)? From my perspective, I would agree that I have not seen any young people driving the LS--that would be persons younger than about age 30. I am actually just kidding, and perhaps I am somewhat of an anomaly choosing the LS at my age--other's loss.

Pat: You are of course correct and must restore reason and civility. On the other hand, when someone runs into a room to throw in a grenade and it blows up in their face, you will find little pity.

So much for "research and facts": Earlier today, I read for the first time the new Edmunds overview info on the 2003 LS430. That write-up essentially refutes/disagrees with every comment made by glamourlife.

antiosama: Agree with you on the WS. Have found myself cheering for the Angels (probably as a result of that Disney movie!).

glamourlife · October 2002

One point I want to clarify though, I never said Lexus has terrible interiors, I just said more flash, gloss, etc. than substance. If the plush gawdy thing floats your boat, go for it. Its just that the shinyness does not equate with build quality and durability.

The interior of any new MB, BMW, or Audi may not employ as many gawdy materials as Lexus, but that does not mean they have lower build quality. In fact I am arguing the reverse is true.

In any event, I am tired of all the personal attacks. What would I stand to gain from fabricating an Edmunds review? Don't you think the host would call me on it?

Also, yes I have driven a S500 extensively. I have also driven a LS430. And in my opinion, yes the Lexus is amazingly serene, plush, and luxurious, however, it is still an imitation of an authentic.

And as for the LX470, I enjoyed my time with it, and I agree with the comment made about SUV's in general. We recently traded the LX470(last night), and I now have a 2003 E500. I am still "learning it", but all I can say is WOW! Any of you that feel the Lexus has superior build quality, please visit a MB dealer and check out the 2003 SL, S, or EClass'.

Again, let's not make this personal.

airmatic · October 2002

i have to disagree with you on one thing. I have driven both the new 2003 E320 and E500, and I can only say that I was shocked by the ammount of cheap-feeling plastics. As for build quality, i think its questionable. However, I do like the exterior of the new E, which greatly resembles both the S-class (and unfortunately, in my opinion, the C-class).

I dont know, but if I were going to pay what, roughly $54,000+, i would get a LS430 (GPS... Mark Levinson sound...) I mean, GPS and a CD-player is optional on the E500...

But then, everyone has their own ideas and thoughts, and that was mine.

By the way, congradulations on your purchase of your new E500. Also, I heard that after about 2005 or so, Lexus my kill the LX470, but I am not sure about that...

glamourlife · October 2002

The rumored demise of the LX470 might actually be 2004! I can't believe it. In recent years competitors have upped the Ante, but the TLC foundation that the LX is built from is world class. I think that killing the LX and replacing it with the GX is a bad move. I have a feeling the GX will be a disappointment just based off the styling.

On another note, if you really felt that the 2003 E had cheap plastics, then MB will never be able to get it right in your eyes. I feel the 2003 E interior is like a baby "Maybach" in terms of quality of materials. I did force my husband to look at the LS to replace the truck. We could have received a substantial discount too. I also must admit that the DVD nav and Mark Levinson setup are the best in the business, but the copycat styling, glossy interior, shiny plastics, and lack of a personality killed it overall.

maxhonda99 · October 2002

RE: Post #1774.

That's the first time I have heard a Lexus interior called Gawdy.

Also, according to a friend who works at Lexus Eastern Region office in New Jersey, the LX470 will be redesigned and will be taken further upmarket, in the Range Rover neighborhood.

sweetjeldorado · October 2002

The problem with the LX 470 is its Toyota sibling Land Cruiser is probably killing it in sales since it is the same truck. Most people would buy the Cruiser at $50,000 alot quicker than a $60,000+ LX 470. They look too much alike except the front view and you could not tell the difference if the badges and emblems were totally removed. So, it probably makes more since to get a Land Cruiser.

Personally for more luxury features, I would choose the Lexus but other than that it does not sell as well now days.

Several years ago, sales monthly was a little over 1,000+ now they are at between 500-600 or so.

Also too Lexus is beginning to be like Ford and Chevelot. How come they have to have several truck models. That is ridiculous. Think about it, RX 300 (Camry based), GX 470, and LX 470. Lexus only needs a car base truck and a pure truck base SUV like Cadillac with its SRX and Escalade variants is enough for any luxury automaker.

J "CaddyLac"

1487 · October 2002

maxhonda:

I stand corrected about the RX300's sales but I still maintain that Lexus will continue to fall down the sales list. Lexus vehicles have no sense of style and they are no longer the bargains they used to be because the other automakers continue to come out with lower priced luxury vehicles to increase sales. The new Rx300 isnt going to make nearly the impact of the first one. When the first one came out it had no competition except the ML320. Next year the RX330 will compete with the X5, ML, SRX, Envoy, XC90 and MDX. IN other words the competition will be much stiffer. CAdillac is right behind Lexus this year in sales, BMW is first, ad the SRX will be enough to push it past lexus next year or the year after. The SRX fills a major hole in the lineup and unlike the RX300 it will be something new and fresh. Cadillac's lineup is smaller and older than Lexus' lineup and it's still close to lexus in sales. Once you add the ESV, XLR and SRX it wll be good position to pass lexus. The new GS and RX are replacement models, not an expansion of lexus lineup.

How old is old? I am talking 50s and 60s. I have seen many Deville drivers who looked to be in their 40s or early 50s. Most LS430 drivers ae beyond retirement in this area. I think they went from Buicks to the LS430. To be honest, the lexus model I hear the most about from people my age is the RX300. The Es is horrible looking (also a favorite of guys in their 60s), the GS is dated and the RX looks like a civic with big wheels. On styling alone I think BMW, MB and CAdillac will outsell cadillac next year. BTW, BMW has four models coming out next year and two of those will be affordable. If you erase the Lexus price advantage it starts to lose its luster compared to the prestigous German marques.

pcbrs · October 2002

According to J.D. Power's 2002 APEAL (Automotive Performance, Execution And Layout) the LS430 is the winner in the Premium Luxury Car category. Sounds like it has a lot of "appeal" according to the survey.

-Jeff

carnaught · October 2002

I had once heard that "old people drive Lexus' and that their parents drive Cadillacs". I've also heard that a Cadillac service lounge is "heaven's waiting room".

zachmbenzfvr · October 2002

Don't you think that Lexus actually should be thanking Mercedes for it's design of the previous and current a-class cars?(not to mention the m-class. Total rip-off of an ML). I mean without Mercedes-Benz, Lexus would be designing all of its cars like the sc430 which in my opinion is by far one of the most hideous cars on the road today. Lexus needs to come up with some innovative designs instead of copying everything from everyone else. Lexus will always be at the bottom of my list, as the cheap rip-off imitation Mercedes-Benz. This is not directed to any particular person. This is my opinion. So I don't want any of you lexuslovers to be up my [non-permissible content removed] about this okay? Ok

pat · October 2002

I think we can ALL express our opinions without others of us reacting in such graphic, provocative terms.

Let's everyone relax for a bit, okay?

There is NO need to take someone else's different opinion as a personal affront. Just talk about your own perspectives without attempting to berate others into seeing things the same way you do.

That ain't a'gonna work -- EVER, no matter how much you berate and carry on.

If some of you would just calm down and think about it rationally, you would realize that pissing off the very people you'd like to convince gets you a minus zero in what you were trying to accomplish.

And then there is the fact of how silly and how off-putting these diatribes look to the truly impartial readers of this mess.

Lighten up, try to be level-headed, and above all, do not attack... Attacking another is what destroys your own credibility.

Seriously.

footie · October 2002

October 8th, 2002:

The 2002 APEAL study is based on responses from more than 117,800 new-vehicle owners and comprises eight specific areas of vehicle performance and design that identify what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership. These areas are: vehicle exterior styling; engine and transmission; comfort and convenience; ride, handling and braking; seats; heating, ventilation and cooling; cockpit and instrument panel; and sound system. The study is in its seventh year...

The E Class, C Class, and S Class MB's did not make top 3 in any classification. The SL and CL came in 2nd/3rd in luxury category behind LS430 because JDPA combines two categories.

A .pdf download with the details is at

http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2002105.pdf.

This study is important is because it actually reflects a statistically significant reflection of ownership experience.

Most Appealing Compact Car MINI Cooper
Most Appealing Compact Pickup Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Most Appealing Compact Van Honda Odyssey
Most Appealing Entry Luxury Car Ford Thunderbird
Most Appealing Entry Midsize Car Hyundai Sonata
Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle Honda CR-V
Most Appealing Full-Size Car Ford Crown Victoria
Most Appealing Full-Size Pickup Cadillac Escalade EXT
Most Appealing Full-Size Sport Utility Vehicle Ford Excursion
Most Appealing Full-Size Van GMC Savana
Most Appealing Luxury Sport Utility Vehicle Cadillac Escalade
Most Appealing Mid Luxury Car Lincoln Town Car (2003)
Most Appealing Midsize Sport Utility Vehicle Toyota Highlander
Most Appealing Premium Luxury Car Lexus LS 430
Most Appealing Premium Midsize Car Toyota Avalon
Most Appealing Premium Sports Car Audi TT
Most Appealing Sporty Car Acura RSX

footie · October 2002

More news and this from Germany-- MB finishes 8th behind Subuaru (7th)! Diahatsu(6th),... Toyota sales in Europe increased 16% September, Mercedes 1%. ..

Toyota Motor Corporation vehicle models, which include Lexus, top the rankings in six out of seven segment award categories, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Germany Customer Satisfaction Index (CSI) StudySM released today.

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=674&CatID=1

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Executive/Luxury Cars Nissan Maxima

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Lower Medium Cars Toyota Corolla

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Multi-Purpose Vehicles Toyota Picnic

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Small Cars Toyota Yaris

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Sports Cars Toyota Celica

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Sports Utility Vehicles Toyota RAV4

Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Upper Medium Cars Lexus IS200

ljflx · October 2002

Since the average Lexus buyer is 53 years old (by the way the average MB buyer is 52) there must be a lot of teenagers driving Lexus cars to get the average down based on your stats. The last time I had my LS430 in for service there wasn't a person over 50 dropping off a car. I also got a newly created Lexus magazine in the mail today and the ads in it - Brioni suits, Nieman Marcus etc - are not aimed at the demographics you speak of. What exactly is your source of data?

Glamourlife - the new Jag interior must also look glossy and gawdy to you since it looks like a Lexus derivative or should I say copy. Regardless it's beautiful, maybe even beats the LS430 - and I'm not a Jag fan. That is the quality interior an $80+k MB should have.

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles