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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    In a sort of role-reversal here, the S450 will represent the "value" vehicle to some respects. This should not be hard to understand because for YEARS, the LS430 had less horsepower, and we heard the argument about how that didn't matter to many buyers.

    Tag, I don't think that's correct. I think that for quite a few years, the LS430 has had an hp and 0-60 advantage over the S430. I haven't gone back and checked so I'm not 100% sure, though.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    And p.s., it was the germancarfans who tended to say that hp and straightline performance weren't critical.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ouch!

    So far there are no CD/JD Power stats on the Q7 but it may end up earning the same number of CR black holes earned by its Touareg cousin. I have much more confidence in the various cars Audis sell(not all of them) than their Q7.

    I also have confidence about the future reliability of my 5 series wagon(the 3.0l has passed the test of time with great success). But I am a bit worried about the reliability of the untestsed twin turbo 3 series. Despite my concern I cant resist that car and I will soon be visiting my dealer to make a deal.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    And p.s., it was the germancarfans who tended to say that hp and straightline performance weren't critical.

    German car fans in the past few decades have found hp as not the only important factor in a performance car.

    BMW's history of being an hp laggard is decades old(at least BMWs without the M initial). And despite this history BMW has always been referred to as a manufacturer of performance cars.

    Currently BMW's history is being re-written with the new BMW335i since this will be the first BMW that I can remember that has an hp level that is equivalent to the top contenders in its segment (without mentioning the 335i's superior gobs of torque).

    I think future models of the 5 and 7 series will experience a major inflation in HP and will lose their stigma of being HP laggards.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The Q7 problems should give a boost to sales of the new MDX.
    I will drive the Acura when it comes out next month.
    I wouldn't touch the Q7. :lemon:
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The MDX isn't going to be quite as luxurious as I want (meaning, I don't care for faux wood), but I'll probably buy either it or the rumored JX. Not sure if the latter would be roomy enough, but it should be luxurious enough.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    but a 4-door convertible S550, never! IMO of course.

    Well Merc you know the old saying: "Never ever say never".

    image

    Apparently the sister company of MB will likely be introducing a 4 door convertible in the form of the next generation Chrysler 300C. If there is a 4 door convertible Chrysler than why not a 4 door convertible S Class Benz?

    Also notice that the link below provides no mention whatsoever of platform sharing between the future LX platform of the 300C and the MB E Class.

    I strongly believe the rumors of increased platform sharing between the future 300C and the E Class are highly unlikely.

    2010 Chrysler 300C Convertible
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Our previous rhetoric and debates won't matter. The marketplace will allow for the S550 to have the horsepower advantage, the LS460 to have the Lexus "value" in comparison to the S550, and for the S450 to offer the Mercedes "value" in comparison to the LS460.

    At this point, that's how I see it.

    And remember, all S-Class vehicles are long wheelbase, BTW.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I remember reading all this hullaballoo about the Lexus LS Self- Park feature. Who cares about parking when you can get a car that can drive itself? Well folks it appeare First Auto Works from China has a sophisticated new car with a self drive feature.

    Here is a picture of the FAW Hongqi (Red Flag) HQ3 :

    image

    Chinese carmaker First Auto Works (FAW) is demonstrating a sedan that drives itself. Equipped with two cameras hooked up to a computer guidance system of some sort, the FAW Hongqi (Red Flag) HQ3 prototype is designed to navigate its way through streets, avoiding obstacles and stopping at traffic signals.

    FAW demonstrated the car at the Northeast Asia Investment and Trade Expo, where it was limited to a snail-pace 37 mph, though the automaker claims it could safely operate at speeds up to 93 mph

    Here is my dire warning: Once you allow yourself to buy a car that electronically self parks itself then what will stop you from buying a future car that will self drive itself? If this temptation is prevalent among car buyers then driving enthusiasts will become nothing more than relics of the past ( in other words as extinct as a Tasmanian Tiger) :(
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You must have missed my post last month about the Volkswagen vehicle that drives itself.

    link title

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    SCARY!

    This self-drive idea is spreading like a contagious disease. ;)
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I suppose the next logical step is for the car to self-order itself as a newer model when the current lease expires...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    and then deliver itself to your house. ;)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Did we miss all of the tranny probs over at Acura MDX? All of the broken suspension pieces of the rude n' crude ruff n' tumble Caddy Escalade? The air-suspension failures and sludge build up in the engines of the LC/LX Toyota's? Then for sure you must've read all of the posts about the all-time lemon, the QX56?

    Folks, no car on inception is a safe bet. The Q7 has been a strong seller in Europe(number 1 in sales, handidly beating the GL(4-1), X, and various Euro models) and is off to a great start in the States, boosting Audi's sales over 41%, along with the A4. For sure that number will only grow when the introduce they V-6 variant as you're reading this and the hi-po V10 and V12 TDI.

    The Q7 doesn't appear to have all of the inherit electrical probs that the T'regg/Cayenne has. If the models were such lemons, then how would Porsche stay in the top 3 of all out reliability with the Cayenne being such a popular vehicle? You can't have it both ways. And if you think the Q7 is a lemon, then the Porsche must be a lemon with a little vinegar on it because this thing is loaded with way more stuff than it's cousins, altho the Audi is only loosely based on them.

    In summation, if I listened to all of the ranting and disgruntled posters here, I would've never bought an MB or Audi. But all of my cars have served me as promised. Even the supposed pathetic A8 has been one of the most reliable cars that we've ever owned. Some people who own a Lexus, Toyota, Infiniti, or Acura don't get in their cars everyday and it works like a gem. Read the posts, and you'll find out....
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    it's a little early to call the Q7 a lemon although their are problems. If 6 months to a year go by and those problems still persist, then I will jump on board. I talked my wife out of the Toureg with all the problems I read about even though it drove better than half the suv's in the class. The problem with the toureg is that it seems as though the problems are varying and numerous. I don't see as many varying issues with the Q7 as of yet, but the night is young so to speak.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    if this "new" BMW I6 will usher the return of the 735i? Three hundred HP should be plenty to get that battleship moving.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Not all Lexus owners have had 100% happy experiences, including me. But the historical statistical evidence is that, even with first-year models, certain brands (like Lexus) have proven to be safer bets from a reliability perspective.

    I wouldn't hesitate to buy a 1st year Lexus model, based on that historical record. With Acura the 1st-year record isn't as good, but is acceptable and with the MDX I might buy a 1st year model if I view it as sufficiently attractive vs the competition. But with a German model, because of history I would wait to read annecdotal evidence and large-scale survey data re reliability, since reliability is a concern of mine. On the German side, I don't think a Q7 or GL are sufficiently reliable for me, though an S might be.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    True. Acura can never be taken seriously as a luxury brand so long as it insists on using its rather unique test tube version of "wood." :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And fill out the paper work too.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would probably go with the new Acura but would have to check out the "wood"( :surprise: ) for myself.
    Could be a deal-breaker.

    The reviewers have been raving-comparing it to Porsche and BMW in handling.

    Haven't had a Japanese vehicle since my 1983 Mazda 626.
    Getting tired of seeing that same old BMW dash after 13 years.
    But the wood has been real! :blush:
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Mercedes bionic car
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Agreed. Historically in recent times, the Japanese brands have been more reliable off the bat than the Euro/American models. But they're not immune...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The 735i exixts. Yes this is true. The Europeans have the all to cool option of having a combined 25mpg 7-Series WITHOUT i-Drive... :shades:

    I don't think we'll see a six-cylinder 7 at least until the next model, which BMW has promised to spice things up for the American market. The return of the six-cylinder model may be on contention that MB releases the S350... But who knows with BMW as they operate under a model of secrecy. Who saw the twin-turbo coming last year.... nobody.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Acura can never be taken seriously as a luxury brand so long as it insists on using its rather unique test tube version of "wood."

    Disagree.

    Particularly for an SUV, I think this current MDX meets the criteria . . . fake wood and all.

    image

    image

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Test tube "wood".

    A cruise ship-sized steering wheel.

    No front passenger power lumbar.

    No power liftgate unless ordering the rear entertainment package.

    However, aside from the "wood" and large steering wheel, coming from BMW, I have to say I like the interior quite a bit.

    Looking forward to sitting in one.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Well, if you buy your wife zircon jewlery instead of real diamond, can it be considered a luxury? I haven't seen the new MDX in person, but I think the faux wood might look more visually different from real wood than say zircon looks from diamond.

    On the other hand, wood trim isn't an overwhelming portion of the buying decision.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    the fake wood thing with Acura. Their is a trade off however. Arguably the best nav system as far as auto manufacturers go. The quality of their electronics in general. And the new Elliot Schnieder sound system is second only to the B&O in the S8 IMO.
    If BMW had a Honda/Acura nav system, their would be nothing to complain about. :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    be the last kid on my block without a navigation system.
    What did we all do for so many years without one?

    I can easily plan my trips on the internet in advance.

    I must admit, however, that there have been occasions when I was told to go North and it should have been South. :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The MDX is nothing more than a Pilot with a tuxedo and somewhat sportier sneakers.

    What is a RDX? A CRV with a blazer and track pants.

    What is a TL? An Accord with a suede jacket and a Nike sweat shirt.

    I can go on and on like this for every single Acura product. Kudos for Lexus and Infiniti for at least having some models with a distinctive platform.

    The only Japanese luxury SUV I admire is the Infiniti FX with its distinctive platform that is not shared with a Nissan.

    And in order to pre-empt an attack on my post I would like to state the obvious: Yes my logic applies equally to German SUVs like the Q7 and Cayenne sharing a platform with a VW. If I had to choose a German luxury SUV I would buy either a BMW X5 or a MB ML whose platforms are not shared with a mainstream manufacturer.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    The only Japanese luxury SUV I admire is the Infiniti FX with its distinctive platform that is not shared with a Nissan.

    Nissan Murano
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Murano uses the FWD platform shared by the Nissan Altima and Quest.
    The FX uses the RWD platform shared by the Infiniti G and M.

    Although I must admit there is somewhat of a family resemblance between the FX and Murano.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I thought they all (other than Q and Sentra...and trucks) shared the FM platform including the Z350...with the M and now the new G using the “updated” FM platform; though I supposed we could argue what sharing means.

    But I suppose you are correct, there is no Nissan with RWD that shares the FX platform.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm confused on that one Tag.

    Yes, the S450 will represent the value leader for the S-Class, but how will that value stack up agains the LS460 is the concern.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh no a S550 Convertible will not happen. I'll eat the brochure if it makes it to production and is sold here at the local Benz dealer!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What is a RDX? A CRV with a blazer and track pants.

    And my god are they ugly, especially the CRV. The RDX looks like some sort of British bulldog, short, fat and stubby.

    Until LG posted something about the RL using the Accord platform I never made the connection between the two. Honda uses a variation of the Accord platform for darn near everything!!! Only the Civic platform is truly any different it seems.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I thought they all (other than Q and Sentra...and trucks) shared the FM platform including the Z350...with the M and now the new G using the “updated” FM platform; though I supposed we could argue what sharing means.

    Nope. Nissan's Front-midship architecture is strictly rear or AWD on the ATTESA E-TS cars. The Altima and its ilk are on Nissan's "D" platform.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Dewey, this is the CL I want:

    image

    The CL63 AMG, my gawd it is gorgeous!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The MDX is nothing more than a Pilot with a tuxedo and somewhat sportier sneakers.

    Well, like the RX, the MDX came first. The next generation Pilot won't get the power, or the trick AWD system. It's not like Honda is trying to pull a fast one, if the upgrades aren't worth it, buy a Pilot.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting photos. I definitely want to see what Lexus does with it.

    Link
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I doubt if we'll see any 6-cylinder or even smaller V8 model from BMW, Mercedes, or Jaguar here anymore in their top sedan models. BMW sells both a 730i and 740i Europe, I6 and 4.0L V8 models respectively. If I'm not mistaken the 740i has 306hp, and the 730i has 230hp? Not really sure about the 730i. Audi and Jaguar also have smaller engined versions of their flagship cars over there too. I don't think we'll see another S350 until the end of the W221's run in order prop up sales like they did with the W220 for the 2006 model year. I think BMW could sell a 740i here though with ease if priced right. Lexus fans will love this, but the base LS model with a V8 would make cars like the 730/740, S350 and various smaller engined A8s and XJs a touch sell here now. You have to want those cars as opposed to being a value shopper when it comes to hp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I suppose the next logical step is for the car to self-order itself as a newer model when the current lease expires...

    Oh I can defintely see the day when the car will remind you when the lease is up and even play a clip of the car you should replace it with via the nav screen. If BMW's can call the dealer's service department on their own and link you to an adviser then this is the next logical step.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I could be wrong but I believe the Q7 is on it's own platform. It shares less than 16% of it's parts with the porsche, and VW.
    Edmunds latest article on the RDX says that it shares hardly anything with the CRV as it's drive trains are completely different.
    It's great that Lexus shares very little of their platforms, who cares they all look alike. Every time I see a new ES, or the back of an Avalon, I think I've spotted a new LS test mule.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The MDX is nothing more than a Pilot with a tuxedo and somewhat sportier sneakers.

    Like the Lexus SUV's compared to their Toyota counterparts.

    In the case of the MDX, it is quieter, better handling, allows for the simultaneous combination of one the best nav systems AND multi-media video entertainment, which is not available on the Pilot, more luxurious and more features (auto lights, trip computer, etc.).

    It is my understanding that the brand new '07 MDX, which handles so remarkably that it was reported that it's as though God himself has His hand guiding the vehicle, will have no Honda counterpart for now.

    The '07 Acura MDX reviews so far are darn near as good as any SUV reviews could get, IMO.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm confused on that one Tag.

    Yes, the S450 will represent the value leader for the S-Class, but how will that value stack up agains the LS460 is the concern.

    Confused? Sorry.

    Just consider a prime reason for choosing the LS460 over the S550. You've said it yourself . . . it's largely the price. Not the only reason, but a large one.

    Now enter the S450, with a lower price, and voila, we have a "value" S-Class model that is closer to the LS460 price. LS buyers have historically been more than willing to give up serious horsepower and handling, as you and I and others have argued for a long time, so it stands to reason that even if the S450 has less hp than the LS, it won't matter that much. It'll be about the price/feature/prestige combination.

    The prestige/status as well as styling of the S450 will also be a contributing factor in favor of the S-Class.

    To get that wonderful S-Class for a price that comes closer to the LS, will be a "value" for the Mercedes S450. With the new S-Class being so desireable, the more affordable S450 should prove to be a viable contender, IMO.

    TagMan
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I agree and believe that it will also become the volume leader S Class for MB. Forget the HP, it's 0-60 times that people will relate to.
    If it is .5 seconds slower to 60 but hits it in 6.0, that's a quick ride. By offering AWD and if the price is within 7-10K of the LS, I think they will have a winner. In addition, they can always negate the price difference even further with strong leases. The big key for them is quality. I think they helped Lexus big time by "flunking" so many of the quality studies. If they get that handled, they can score big or should I say bigger.
    The car is striking to look at, has a fantastic interior and has the presence that says, "ultimate". Just one guys opinion. (hey I drive an LS by the way)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    DH, you are correct. The Q7 shares less than 6% of chassis structure with the VW and Porsche, mainly the front bulkhead and sub-frame connectors.

    The Q7 is really unique in that the chassis had to be fortified and strectched to accomodate a 3rd row. In the process, the Q7 gained 67% more stiffness against bending and 37% more ridgidity, all to make up one very suprisingly entertaining ride.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Actually, the G,M, and FX Infiniti models are based off of the FM-platform that was first used on the 350Z, so they do use, well, a Nissan platform.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    FINALLY: The CL is now a car that I can actually get interested in.

    This CL63 looks leaps and bounds over the W220- CL65 of last year. Gone is the conservative styling. Gone are the awkward-looking exterior dimensions.

    But as they say with MB big coupes, "it's nice to have a dream"0 as they're so unattainable, especially the hi-po AMG's.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Agreed.

    I don't think the LS upped their hp in order to retain existing customers but to attract new ones.

    I would venture to say if Lexus had a 200hp V8 they would still retain their existing base (ok maybe 250hp);so a competitor needs to create a better “Lexus”...and the definition for Lexus doesn't include high hp or performance.

    All generalizations of course.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh no a S550 Convertible will not happen. I'll eat the brochure if it makes it to production and is sold here at the local Benz dealer!

    OK then we are just going to have to defer this bet to some time in 2010. But if I lose I am not going to eat any brochure (some brochures are so big that swallowing one could be fatal). ;)
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