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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    A recall, while sometimes major, is often voluntary and preventative on the part of the manufacturer to make sure that a discovered potential problem or defect is fixed BEFORE it poses a danger or becomes significantly worse.

    When a vehicle problem is already known, but the manufacturer waits until a statistically significant number of people are killed before deciding to (or being forced to) recall vehicles . . . well this is dead wrong (excuse the pun) and borders criminal, IMO.

    However, early discovery and recall of a potential problem deserves positive recognition and praise, IMO.

    Regardless, and independent of recalls, the reliability of Toyota is still unsurpassed, certainly well above Ford and many others.

    Toyota proves that even with recalls, if handled correctly, a manufacturer can still build reliable vehicles.

    TagMan
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Tag, I didn't mean "top dog" in terms of sales. None of the domestics are overacheivers. But in terms of all out luxury, the SRX is what Caddy should've been all this time. You won't mistake it for an RX or Range Rover, but it is better in some respects than many of it's competitors.

    I still can't believe that it makes C&D's Top 5 trucks all the time.
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    What this only proves is that, yes, even the quality king has problems. Did anyone ever expect Dell to be in the shape it's in, the all-out king of computers? No.

    Toyota has problems. Just like the General. Just like Ford. Even like it's homeland competitor Mitsu.

    May it be corruption, scandal, or plain lack of useability/attention of the brand, they all have their problems.

    But Toyota's problem is unique in that it can have an X amount of recalls but their sales never waver. Sure it makes headline news, particularly here in the States. But is it a deal breaker for someone looking at that sporty Camry SE V-6? Absolutely not.

    OTOH, when it comes to "world domination", it's easier said than done. It's pure economic sense. GM has stables in 6 continents and 96 countries. Toyota is really a start up company in East Europe and next-door-neighbor, China. Almost obsolete in the Land Down Under. So it's gonna take more than "we're Toyota" to have the king's crown. It can be done, but not this decade.....
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OTOH, when it comes to "world domination", it's easier said than done.

    I just wanted to make it clear, given the way the posts were going, that there is a distinct difference between recalls and reliability.

    "World domination" doesn't happen overnight. But, Toyota certainly is on a track that could get them there.

    There are other factors at play here, as well. Particularly regarding the energy scenario. GM has recently patented some of its hydrogen fuel engineering, and while I don't think it will necessarily hurt Toyota, I do think that it represents that the automobile industry is in such a massive and unprecedented transition, and that there will be major rewards for innovation when the dust settles . . . and GM certainly has the potential to be innovative.

    TagMan
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yep, looks like our love affair is over. The California Attorney General filed suit today against the top 6 auto makers alledging billions of dollars of damage to the CA environment because of green house gas emissions.

    Extorting billions from tobacco wasn't enough for these crooks. Their quest for deep pockets continues. Gimme a break!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    Regarding: What this only proves is that, yes, even the quality king has problems. Did anyone ever expect Dell to be in the shape it's in, the all-out king of computers? No.
    Toyota has problems. Just like the General. Just like Ford. Even like it's homeland competitor Mitsu.

    Having more recalls is not the same as having poor quality.

    As of now, the JD-Power and Consumer Report's evaluation of Toyota cars are still top-notch. We can start the doomsaying for Toyota, after CR finds any significant change.
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You may want to re-read your JDP report. No Toyota is not at the top, it's that brand that only a short 10 years ago was the laughing stock in the auto world, and that brand is Hyundai.

    BTW: CR is for losers....
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    As usual, very well put. Understood and agreed.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Where on earth are you getting those figures?
    Do these figures include the Ford Pinto, Torino and Mercury Capri?

    The figures are very real. From Detroit news:

    The Dearborn automaker has recalled 6.7 million vehicles worldwide since January 2005 that are equipped with a Texas Instruments speed control deactivation switch that has been linked to dozens of engine fires and has sparked numerous lawsuits.

    If the combined total of 6.7 million vehicles called back -- including 5.8 million in the United States -- were a single recall, it would be the fourth-largest ever, behind a 1996 Ford recall of 7.9 million vehicles for ignition switches and two by General Motors Corp., according to NHTSA data.

    Full link here

    Toyota has a long way to go before they can match the domestics for "recall all-stars".
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    You may want to re-read your JDP report. No Toyota is not at the top, it's that brand that only a short 10 years ago was the laughing stock in the auto world, and that brand is Hyundai.

    Well, I've predicted before that lexicans would be defending their favorite brand from koreancarfans in 10 years or so.

    On the other hand, as regards JDP, most people consider the VDS more important than IQS.

    VDS rankings 2006

    IQS rankings 2006
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    As of now, the JD-Power and Consumer Report's evaluation of Toyota cars are still top-notch. We can start the doomsaying for Toyota, after CR finds any significant change.

    Wouldn't that be a notch below Buick and Cadillac?

    Luckily the individuals that designed and manufactured my “old” 99 A6 didn't read any of these publications; my A6 was more reliable than my subsequent Honda.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, I've predicted before that lexicans would be defending their favorite brand from koreancarfans in 10 years or so.

    It will be interesting to see how Hyundai does in the 2009 VDS report. Their quality has improved quite a bit since '03.
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes, they should move up, we'll have to see by how much.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ok Lexusguy and KillerBunny,

    I stand corrected.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Our local dealer's row (BMW, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, Chevy, Toyota, Land Rover, Mini and Chrysler) has pulled together to fund/build a test track in which customers can put their potential purchases though some tight turns and a bumpy road section. There is also a hill-climb section for Land Rover buyers. It isn't anything huge, but it is the first one I've seen.

    Oh, went to see the VW Eos yesterday and couldn't take it on a test drive due to their only being one sales personal on duty for the first 6 hours everyday! This is a large VW dealer twinned with a Buick dealer, but the VW side has only 2 salespeople. There is a lot wrong with this picture!

    M
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Someone posted a few days back that Toyota was looking to boost global production by some outlandishly high number (40%?) by 2008. Looks like the real plan is more like 11%:

    Toyota forecast global vehicle sales would grow to 9.8 million units in 2008 from an expected 8.85 million units this year, supported by the planned addition of 1.13 million units in output capacity worldwide between 2006 and 2008. reuters story
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh, went to see the VW Eos yesterday and couldn't take it on a test drive due to their only being one sales personal on duty for the first 6 hours everyday! This is a large VW dealer twinned with a Buick dealer, but the VW side has only 2 salespeople. There is a lot wrong with this picture!

    Despite a lack of sales people, I think the Eos is going to make life very tough (tougher?) for Volvo and their C70. The VW will cost less, but offer more power and of course the DSG, which is light years ahead of any Volvo tip-autobox.
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    nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Recalls to me, are not an indicator of reliability issues. They are almost all safety related in one way or another, and it is a signal more of a consience than bad product. Regardless of who it is, a recall doesn't damage their reputation with me. As with Mitsubishi - they denied problems for years that Toyota would have recalled and dealt with.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Oh, went to see the VW Eos yesterday...

    Which one? . . . since there will be the standard version and the more powerful/featured model.

    This is a large VW dealer twinned with a Buick dealer, but the VW side has only 2 salespeople. There is a lot wrong with this picture!

    Now that the Eos has arrived, maybe they'll take a giant step up to 3 sales people. ;)

    What did you think of the Eos so far, from what you were able to see without test driving?

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Here's the link:

    link title

    TagMan
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    From Toronto's Globe & Mail there is an interview with an MB executive about Blutec. The following is the best description I read so far about Blutec:

    Vaughan: In basic terms, what is in this BlueTec technology that makes it clean?

    Maier: There are four steps.

    First, the engine itself, which is brand new and produces the lowest possible level of raw emissions even before the purification systems come into play.

    Second, there's an oxidizing catalytic converter to minimize carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons.

    Third, there's a filter that catches 98 per cent of particulates.

    The fourth step reduces nitrogen oxides, which are currently the only exhaust gas component still emitted in greater quantities by diesel as compared with gasoline engines.

    Vaughan: Well, that fourth step is somewhat controversial because, to get the maximum benefit, you have to add a liquid into the exhaust stream, and some regulators want a completely passive system that doesn't require the vehicle owner to do anything.

    Maier: BlueTec comes in two versions, depending on the type of driving and the level of regulations.

    The second involves injecting a non-toxic aqueous solution into the exhaust gas, which releases ammonia that breaks down nitrogen oxide into harmless nitrogen and oxygen.

    You would only need to refill the tank of this solution with every oil change so it does not require much effort by the owner.

    Interestingly MB is rumored to be discussing Blutec lisencsing deals with BMW, VW, Honda and Toyota (for their Tundra Trucks). Obviously there is no need for automakers to duplicate the efforts of MB in terms of achieving stricter emissions requirements.

    Blutec
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As with hybrids, Blutec does not achieve EPA Figures.

    Linked below is a test drive of the new Blutec E320 Benz.

    Globe & Mail
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Recalls indicate a laps in design/testing/manufacturing. While a recall is not as bad as hiding the problem...it is still an “oops, we messed this up, bring it back and we'll get it right”.

    Sometimes when you have a state of the art vehicle with new cutting edge components you'd expect a number of recalls because you're pushing the envelope; whereas other may be taking the safe route. On the same note, a Corolla should not have recalls...it's pretty basic.

    Most manufacturers have numerous recalls...some insignificant items like fuel door labels and some major like steering failure.

    For me, repeated recalls brings into question the reliability; or more accurately perceived reliability...I'd be wondering “whats next?”...and worse than that is “whats next? Can they or will they fix it?”
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Despite a lack of sales people, I think the Eos is going to make life very tough (tougher?) for Volvo and their C70. The VW will cost less, but offer more power and of course the DSG, which is light years ahead of any Volvo tip-autobox.

    Neither the Volvo C70 nor VW Eos excites me. The power of the C70 drivetrain is a joke especially for its price. And the Eos is just an overpriced VW Golf Cabrio.
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    And the Eos is just an overpriced VW Golf Cabrio

    Overpriced compared to?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Recalls indicate a laps in design/testing/manufacturing. While a recall is not as bad as hiding the problem...it is still an “oops, we messed this up, bring it back and we'll get it right”.

    Just as Mitsubushi, Toyota is under Japanese criminal investigations for recall cover ups. Within this forum I had posted a news story related to this matter months ago.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Compared to what a VW Golf cabrio would cost.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Recalls indicate a laps in design/testing/manufacturing.

    There's more to it. Often the problem is from parts suppliers, whereby the auto manufacturer has indeed properly specified a certain design parameter for the part, but the part supplier does not live up to the obligation, and provides the auto manufacturer with a defective or deficient part . . . which then in turn ends up in the vehicle's production, only to ultimately (but not always) result in discovery and therefore a recall, if warranted.

    TagMan
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Sort of getting off the HELM...but is the VW Golf cabrio still for sale? If I remember correctly, it was quite pricey (for it's category).

    I think 28K (base) it quite reasonable for a convertible with auto hard top.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In this case our disagreement is based on what side of the border you live on.

    US prices are quite reasonable. The Canadian price for a base EOS is US$ 34k (37.6k Cdn $). In otherwords in Canada it is selling at a 21 percent premium (adjusted for current Foreign exchange rates). Way overpriced IMO.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Oh Canada Oh Canada. The premium you pay for such mild winters, I guess. ;)

    TagMan
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Paying a hefty premium in order to drive a topless VW for only 4 months a year just doesnt add up. At least where you live in California you can enjoy a convertible twelve month a year without paying those "Made in Canada "premium prices
    .
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    alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    Yep, looks like our love affair is over. The California Attorney General filed suit today against the top 6 auto makers alledging billions of dollars of damage to the CA environment because of green house gas emissions.

    Extorting billions from tobacco wasn't enough for these crooks. Their quest for deep pockets continues. Gimme a break!

    too funny - I knew this guy was pro-tobacco industry.

    LOL - that's gotta do wonders for a guy's credibility

    haaa!
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    "The lawsuit does not seek a specific claim for damages."

    Calif. Sues Six Automakers Over Global Warming
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What did you think of the Eos so far, from what you were able to see without test driving?

    Oh I like it a lot, a very slick little car. The top has a lot and I mean a lot of mechanical bits that come into play when it does its thing. The salesman said more than a few people were worried about all this mechanical complexity, but they all bought one anway. Of course the EOS has the typical slick VW interior and the usual good looking styling. I suspect it will be a bit hit also, but it would be a lot bigger hit if the dealers actually had some to sell and the right staff in which to do it.

    M
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I'm not as versed in the law as others, so maybe somebody can explain...but how do you have a lawsuit with no specific claim for damages...isn't that the point of a lawsuit?

    Maybe they could get an injunction from autos being sold there...that way they could be stuck in an automotive time warp like Cuba :P
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Syswei, it was I that posted that about Toyota's big boost in output.

    This info came directly from the top American guy, Jim Press, on CNBC the other day.

    He also related that the US production is to ramp up by 25% in this timframe also.

    Building the cars is one thing. Selling is another. But I have no doubt that they can do this in the American market, by the global market is a bit less forgiving. Take for instance the slowdown in Japan's own econonmy, which has created an instant ripple effect in that nation's car biz. But Toyota is not a company of mistakes in terms of marketing and knowing what fits where. So I think that their plan may work, but as I said earlier, tackling the General is easier said than done, particularly since the company is on a strong rebound by virtue of interest in current and future products...
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Being surrounded by law for many years, I can tell you this is one of those lawsuits that will only eventually tie up court/legal time and the result will be absolutely nothing.

    The suit itself is one of the most frivilous I've seen in the last 40 years, especially seeing how it was reported earlier this year that Mother Nature herself is creating more greenhouse gases than man can ever create.

    Look for this one to be drawn out for many years to come, especially since this is one state taking on the 6- Big Guns in the auto industry. I think this is a case of a AG trying to secure his/her place in that State, which is a lowsy way if I must say so. "Do not use the law to benefit oneself without merit", is part of the oath that was sworned by many of an attorney. I guess that has wavered to say the least...
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Regarding the lawsuit . . . I'm sure Hollywood is loving this, as are many of the residents of Berkeley and a few other liberal areas . . . but they do not represent the great majority of Californians who understand that our great and beautiful state is also home to a few too many "fruits and nuts", but they are quite the minority, thank the good Lord.

    A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued for selling too much meat . . . by vegetarians or cow lovers most likely. Heck, isn't selling meat what they are in business to do? And besides, how much smaller should that tiny piece of meat they call a hamburger get anyway?

    So, are we really surprised by yet another historical (or should I say hysterical) lawsuit?

    I'll just have to look forward to the finest CNN news entertainment that my tax dollars can buy!

    :D

    TagMan
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    agentstirlingagentstirling Member Posts: 4
    cool :D
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Regarding the lawsuit . . . I'm sure Hollywood is loving this, as are many of the residents of Berkeley and a few other liberal areas . . . but they do not represent the great majority of Californians who understand that our great and beautiful state is also home to a few too many "fruits and nuts", but they are quite the minority, thank the good Lord.

    Suing the six largest automakers simply because they are the six largest automakers is just rediculous. Sorry California, but Hondas are NOT the problem. The LA skyline does not look like it does because of a glut of Civics and Accords messing up the place.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Suing the six largest automakers simply because they are the six largest automakers is just rediculous

    To say the least. It is absolutely absurd, and fortunately the vast majority of the good citizens of California do not agree with this kind of crazy BS politics.

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Just for fun, merc.

    I'm sure you've seen these already, but I'll remind you once again.

    image

    image

    This car may actually be shown as a prototype next January at the upcoming 2007 NAIAS in Detroit. If so, you can go there and see it for yourself!

    ;)

    TagMan
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Gawd I hope Mercedes doesn't build this thing. I think the press has this confused with a future Maybach or a CL Cabriolet, but a S550 Cabriolet, NEVER!!!! :mad:

    I'll be at Detroit of course! :D

    M
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Takes the focus off the poor rear-end styling! ;)

    Of course, this will come out sometime around the Chrysler 300C Convertible, which will be just after Charlie Sheen wins an Oscar for Best Actor.

    Pretty safe bets, where I stand.

    DrFill
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My sincerest apologies to you Merc1 but it is far too late for you to walk away from both our bets:

    1)The sales volume of the BMW 5 series will exceed that of the MB E Class during 2006.
    2) A cabrio S Class will exist

    Just be careful on what brochure you choose to eat during that fateful month of January ;)
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Dr. Fill,

    every post you posted so far in this forum is hundred percent correct. With the exception of all your posts on Lexus and Charlie Sheen :P
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes Dewey how ironic that both bets will be decided early next year!

    I stand firm by both bets!!!!! :P

    M
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The S450, when it comes available will do more damage to the XJ8 and the aging 750i than to the LS.

    Doc, your comment on the LS board is more appropriate to this board, so to be safe I will reply here.

    Depending upon the price and feature content of the S450, it could easily be perceived as a "value" which LS buyers are well-known to gobble up. But, it is premature to know any specifics of the S450.

    In any event, I think there is great potential here for a value play that actually works in favor of MB this time around. The prestige, features, styling, and driving dynamics of the S450 may prove to be quite a contender. But, again, too early to know.

    TagMan
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Autoweek has some engine details on the car:
    The entry-level powerplant will be Volkswagen's 3.5-liter six-cylinder engine with 300 bhp. Next up will be two direct-injection eight-cylinder engines, available as naturally-aspirated (350 bhp) and with twin-turbo (560 bhp). Porsche is also toying with the idea of using the Porsche GT's 700-bhp ten-cylinder powerplant. Sounds like they are thinking of taking down the S65.

    image

    Link
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