High End Luxury Cars

ejerod · November 2002

Was away for a while in the mountains. Had to get away to refresh my brain. Anyway, to answer your question 1487, no I'm not feeling sorry for you my friend. I think you're smart enough that one day you'll find your niche and achieve whatever it is in life you were created for. I'm a private banker with my own firm. That allows me to live a full and wonderful life. I'm not one that worships at the alter of the almighty dollar, but I do believe in hard work and planning.. Thanks for responding, and happy motoring everyone..

fjk57702 · November 2002

Both models are based on the 1995 Aurora platform. The Deville has a longer wheelbase ( about 3 inches) and a longer body (about 6 inches). The STS has larger antiroll bars, so handling may be better.

The Seville will become a rear wheel drive model based on the CTS's sigma platform for the 2004 model year or perhaps the 2005 model year. Probably an early 2005 model. The Seville is whats left of Cadillacs Fleetwood models. This implys a better grade of interior refinement, but I'm not sure that you actually get much.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

"I saw a CTS today with an atrocious gold package and some kind of mini-carriage roof. The car looked absolutely hideous. It's owners like this that continue to make Cadillac second-rate."

Gee, I have seen a few S and E-class Mercedes-Benz models with full carraige roofs...does that mean MB is second rate too?

"I agree with zach and fjk. Caddy & Lincoln will have to prove they can build a consistent quality 30+ car before they jump into the 70+ range. That means at least the next two generations of cts and ls will have to keep getting better."

I agree. Mercedes Benz should stop production of the S class until they build a car with consistent quality.

maxhonda99 · November 2002

S-class and E-class with full carriage roofs? Huh. Where have you seen those? I've never come across one of those.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

I have seen two E class sedans with full carraige roofs, one in Santa Barbara, one in Sacramento, and an S class in the east bay somewhere.

carnaught · November 2002

I think you've seen the only Mercedes' with carriage roofs that exist....

magnetophone · November 2002

Yeah, i see dozens of Mercedes a day and never have seen one of those.

merc1 · November 2002

" It's main downside is that it's simply not designed for the American driver."

Then why bother? The car has been a comercial failure here, the place that matters to me. I still say it's hard to cater to both the enthusiast and the pure luxury folks all in the same brand. Lexus hasn't been able to do it so far. Both of their "sporty" cars simply don't sell, the IS300 and especially the GS430. Think about it, BMW is all about sport first, Mercedes usually tries to sit in the middle and Lexus (except for one model) is all about Luxury. Audi probably does both the best, if you discount Mercedes having AMG. Wishnhigh1, what you think?

_______

I've seen at least one of every luxury brand's cars with a cloth top or some other silly add-on, but the difference between Lexus/MB and Cadillac is that Cadillac dealers still stock these cars on their lots. The Caddy dealer here (Town and Country Cadillac of Naperville) regularly has DeVilles done up in this way. You'd practially have to tell an MB dealer that you're not going to buy the car in order to get them to do such a thing to a Benz.

M

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

Its a trend that started on the west coast, and will probably die on the west coast. Im not saying that they arent rare, Im saying that owners personal preferences should not determine the worth of the brand, like magneto implied.

nealm1 · November 2002

"I still say it's hard to cater to both the enthusiast and the pure luxury folks all in the same brand."

If these are mutually exclusive, to which does MB cater?

fjk57702 · November 2002

Cadillacs problem is not padded roof treatments but the fact that a lot of the parts are also found on Chevys. Cadillacs interiors are really not as nice as they should be for the price of the car. Since I live about a 1000 mile round trip from the nearest BMW/Mercedes/Lexus dealership I am really not able to go into one of those dealerships to compare cars. But it is my considered opinion that GM's interiors have gone downhill in the last 20 years.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/cadillac/seville/sts4drsedan46l8cyl4a/photo_4.html

Sorry. Not seeing the lower-class GM resemblance.

jschlenker · November 2002

Looks like My former STS interior except the headliner was falling down at 2000 miles! The car spent 11 days in the shop the first 18,000 miles.The high speed vibration problem never was resolved so I sold it and purchased a LS430, zero troubles to date. The LS430 is quicker (0-60), more comfortable, and has more rear seat and trunk room. My LS also gets better mileage then the STS. The ML audio system is also superior to the Bose in the STS. The STS is just a fancy Olds Aurora in my opinion.

fjk57702 · November 2002

I was thinking in terms of the turn signal stalk for example. The plasic used on the dashboard top is not unlike that used in other GM products. I will say that I think the Seville is much better than my 98 Aurora or 95 Riviera was for that feel of luxury.

Dash board style is very much like the Audi/Mercedes/BMW I think. Looking back through old Motor Trends, I found that the 92 Sevilles dash board design was probably based on the above cars but significantly refined by Cadillac. The current design is a refinement of the 92 layout.

stevestein · November 2002

Where in the US are you 500 mi from any BMW/Lexus/MB dealership? Alaska?

fjk57702 · November 2002

but I live where we are trying to turn our gold mine into a neutrino catcher. The (now deposed) majority leader passed some legislation to get this done. (Are these enough clues?) The nearest dealers are near Denver ~350-400 miles one-way.

baron87 · November 2002

You have got to be kidding me. The Lincoln train was taking it treacherously slow (lack of funds, we assume), and look what happened to it. From the looks of it, the entire Lincoln operation has been derailed, permanently or otherwise.

I don't even have the patience, nor the time to really answer to that argument. It's just absurd, and furthermore, it really doesn't matter because the fact remains, unless you work for the said entity, that you will not have the ability to make an impact any more relevant than a statistical anomaly.

Moreover, it doesn't matter because it has already been said and/or done. Cadillac Motor Car is launching an all out, all-or-nothing assault on the industry at large. So, for better or for worse, Cadillac is moving along, gaining momentum, increasing its wattage (yes, joules/second;watts, a measurment of power, that is the ammount of work (fd) accomplished per standard time unit).

1487 · November 2002

i have seen a benz with a cloth roof myself, I believe it was an S-class.

Cadillac should not take anything slow. They need to attack things full speed ahead. They have been behind for so long that it would make no sense to have a ten year plan, they need a two year plan. Cadillac is not excactly Hyundai, their image isnt as bad as you people want to make it out to be. You guys need to apply some brainpower when reading my posts. I NEVER said their cars sell for $60K but I did say that they have models that go up to that price range. Incentives aside there are ways to option a cadillac up to the $60K range. They are not VW who is making a $30K price jump in one or two years. they dont have any $70K cars in their lineup because they dont have anything worth $70K to sell right now, that will change next year. The other thing is I want to know how merc1 and hond99 seem to have such a good handle on the car's price. I have not seen any official info about the price but everyone here is throwing around the $75K and $80 numbers like its fact. Next week you will say the car will cost $85K. The car might be $70K fully loaded, we don't even know that yet so stop harping on the fact that it's overpriced. This insanity about cadillac building up its image over 10 years and gradually building better cars is crap and it would be a recipe for mediocrity. They know certain people will never buy a cadillac and those are the people who are on here constantly beating up on the Cimarron and cadillacs that arent even out yet. However, before its too late they need to get busy attracting unbiased or innovative buyers who have a mind of their own.

The CTS is not perfect but it is not nearly the dog you guys are making it to be. It's underpowered? compared to the IS300, ES300 or the C320? Please spare me. It's interior may need some work but so does the interior of the C320, IS300, 330i, 9-5 and most of all the damn G35. Audi may make the best interiors but once you get beyond that the CTS is right on par with the competition. The only two entry lux cars interiors I really like are the A4 and the ES300, everything else needs work. Of course the mags and you people have nothing negative to say about anything that' not a caddy. Anyone who says the car isn't competitive with those other cars is not being realistic. Even if the cars styling isnt your cup of tea the car is still a good performer BEFORE it gets the new engine. When it does get the new engine there will be more excuses and more negativity so I wont even fool myself into thinking it will change anything.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

Sorry to citisize another Caddy fan...but you really need to cut down with the techno-geek lingo.

Sure it may sound kinda cool to other kids your age, but to those that do know what youre talking about, you end up sounding like my 10 year old brother trying to prove to me that time travel is possible.

Throwing around a bunch of technical terminology does not create credibility, it bores some people and annoys the others.

magnetophone · November 2002

I took lots of physics classes, and I don't think we ever attempted to explain the automobile industry in terms of joules or wattage. I agree.

And just how is Cadillac launching a full scale attack on the industry? All it appears to be doing is launching models that mimic the concepts of other existing leaders (XLR is intended to be in the vein of the SL, the SRX is going after the car-based crossover crowd - the RX300's, the X5's, etc.) This doesn't constitute anything but trying to catch up to the competition. This is not a bad thing... in fact it's necessary for Cadillac's survival, but (someone with a neutral opinion) show me that they're anything other than just a boxier American version of BMW and Mercedes standards? At least with Audi you can say they're going their own way - their cars are FWD and AWD and their goals are different (for example, the A4 is obviously more focused on safety and quality than a 330i - compare the paint jobs or interiors and you'll probably agree.)

BMW, Audi, and Lexus have their "schtick" - BMW is aspirational performance, Audi is sort of a minimalist safe & secure, with a heavy focus on "apparent" quality, whereas Lexus is focused on rock-solid reliability.

This makes me wonder....where is Cadillac and Mercedes?

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

Cadillac is trying to be the stylish and powerful and comfortable American alternative that they once were.

In other words, big powerful V8s in almost all models, big flashy look-at-me styling, more interior room than any car period(not just per class), as well as trying to keep pace with the tech advancements of the now(like nightvision and stuff).

That is what Cadillac is trying to be, but we have to give them some time.

Mercedes on the other hand is about the attractive but conservative, built-like-a-vault, safer than any car approach.

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00033.htm

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00027.htm

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99012.htm

What I would like to know is where Infiniti is trying to fit in.

merc1 · November 2002

Your funny jabs aside, Mercedes tries to cater to both. Successfully, not always. No matter what Mercedes says they're cars are still skewed towards the luxury crowd. This is also true of their AMG cars. Pure enthusaist are still going to pick a BMW.

1487,

One thing you are is consistent. You always turn around and tell us what you "didn't" say right after you've been proven wrong. What was the point of pointing out that Cadillacs can cost up to 60K if they aren't selling anywhere near those prices? Does it really make a difference if the XLR costs 75K or 80K, it's still going to be a tough sell for a Cadillac at either price.

Nobody said the CTS is a "dog". But your view on the CTS doesn't even jive with Bob Lutz's and he runs the company! The car in it's 2003 form is underdeveloped. Period. Is the CTS competitive, yes. Is it among the top cars in the class, NO. Same ole GM story "wait till next year". You have to be "innovative" to buy a Cadillac? What on earth does that mean?

That very attitude "full speed ahead" is why the CTS isn't complete now. Just think if they had waited one more year and introduced a finished car. Reputation is everything in the luxury car business and the CTS has been forever tarnished in the minds of many because of the 2003 version.
______________

Infiniti is still struggling with that very same question. The Q45, while and interesting car has flopped again. They tried to market it as a sports sedan and it's anything but. Then they bring in the M45 with %95 of everything the Q45 has. Oh and they made it unattractive too. The I35 is just a fancy Maxima and the G35 is hindered by a silly interior. But man is it a fun car!

Acura, I guess has decided not to truly step up with a true "luxury" car, as their next product is yet another 20-30K front-driver. Where is the V8 rwd RL replacement? I just know for 2004 they aren't going to disappoint me again. They're gonna do the right thing right?

The rest, Lexus, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW are pretty much clear in product, mission and purpose.

M

magnetophone · November 2002

I don't think Acura is trying to compete. Honda is an excessively conservative company. I think either they're never planning on being a major lux competitor or they're going to do what they did with the Pilot and Odyssey and take their time. For now, Acura serves as a profit booster and nothing else.

magnetophone · November 2002

FYI, the Audi A6 also comes in a V8 and a 2.7 twin turbo engine, both of which are very fast!

syswei · November 2002

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1037044975318633708,00.html?mod=europe_business_whats_news

fjk57702 · November 2002

The CTS is a lowend luxury or near luxury car at best. I would say that the Deville is luxury (standard luxury) not really highend. High end is the S-class mercedes or the Audi A8. I am not sure if any of them are worth what they cost. The price tag that cadillac puts on their cars is too high for what one really gets in my opinion. On the other hand, the price tag on the buick park avenue is too high too. Actually I think all cars are too expensive these days. Still, if this forum is about high end marques, then I think cadillac falls short of the mark.

pat · November 2002

Folks, there are a couple of you who need to listen up.

If you are not able to post a message that articulates your point of view WITHOUT disparaging personal comments, expect that your post will be removed.

If you continue to have messages removed due to violations of the Membership Agreement such as disparaging personal comments that violate the civility and respect requirements of your membership here, expect that your Town Hall membership will be revoked.

I'm sure the very few folks to whom I am speaking know exactly who you are.

If there are any questions, email me. This discussion has been sidetracked way too often, and it stops now.

Pat, Host

syswei · November 2002

It was pointed out to me that the link posted earlier only works for WSJ subscribers, so here's a summary:

Mostly about MB quality problems. Mentions Consumer Reports, JD Power, and a European survey that "is prepared for car makers themselves and is normally kept secret" where MB's rating "fell below that of Opel" (German subsidiary of GM) "a brand with one of the worst images in Europe." As for JD Power's 2002 new-vehicle quality survey..."Mercedes finished 13th among all brands, tied with Chevrolet".

Also provided a couple annecdotes. One from a MB dealer in IL complaining about quality problems especially on the E and S. Another from a S owner who "has lost track of how many times he has been to the dealer for repairs"...transmission lurching, electronics system shutdown, etc.

QUOTED ITEMS ARE FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, NOVEMBER 12, 2002.

fjk57702 · November 2002

Interesting! J. Kitman, who writes for Automobile magazine, did a Cadillac Deville test and wrote that the Deville was the equal of the S class Mercedes.

1487 · November 2002

"But your view on the CTS doesn't even jive with Bob Lutz's and he runs the company! "

What did I say that doesnt agree with Lutz? As always you do not address the legitimate points I make and then you ignore the statements I make that acknowledge flaws in Cadillac. I JUST said that the CTS' interior needed some improvement and then you say I have some idealistic view of the CTS that is rosier than that of Lutz. What???? He said the interior was not good enough to allow the car to be successful in Europe and that may be true. What I said was that many entry level luxury cars have interiors that need work. Any comment on that?

"Does it really make a difference if the XLR costs 75K or 80K, it's still going to be a tough sell for a Cadillac at either price."

This is your opinion, not fact. Considering the amount of positive press the car is getting and the number of people who have contacted cadillac about the car, I don't know that you are correct in the assumption that the car will be overpriced. Once again I state, this is not VW, this is cadillac. They are not going from entry level cars to super-lux cars. Theya re going from semi-expensive vehicles to very expensive vehicles. They are also planning V12 powered models that will cost more than the XLR.

"Reputation is everything in the luxury car business and the CTS has been forever tarnished in the minds of many because of the 2003 version"

Spare us the dramatics. The car was projected to sell 40K units this year and that's what it will sell. I would say the majority of cars come out with a serious flaw that is addressed within the first three model years. That can be interior design,transimission availability engine power, styling or even price. The CTS is no different. Why do you act like Cadillac is the only manufacturer that has ever put out a less than perfect product. If BMW had just waited another year to perfect idrive maybe it wouldn't have been so senselessly confusing and overwhelming. If audi had waited about three years to release the A6 maybe it wouldnt have labored with a weak 200hp iron block V6 that propelled it to 60 in about 9secs. No matter how good or bad the CTS was it wasnt going to be univerally loved. If it looked like a BMW they would have been slammed for not being original, they design a unique car and its slammed for not being mainstream. They come out with a manual tranny and people question Caddy's intelligence because they say no one who buys caddys drives a stick. They can't win. I want to know which cars in the class are complete. To me the A4 and maybe the 330 are the closest to complete. I can find major flaws in the Xtype, Is300, LS, G35 and C320. I can list them if you wish. In fact considering its price I would take a '03 9-3 with the sport package over some of the aforementioned models. It looks good in and out and it should deliver better performance than any of those cars except the 330 and G35.

that is the cleaned up version of my post. I dont understand why everything is so strict now. I am not "attacking" anyone on here and I dont take offense to anything said to me. I have not changed the way I post and I dont see why I am getting reprimanded all of a sudden.

maxhonda99 · November 2002

1487, List the flaws on each cars. NOt looking to start a argument, just want to see your views on the major flaws of each.

For once, I also have to agree with you flaws over all car makes. I don't think the CTS's image has been harmed at all. More to the point, the CTS really doesn't have major flaws. Styling could be a flaw, but we won't go there, being that it is subjective. One sees beauty, one sees beast. Overall, I can't see anything that would have tarnished the CTS's reputation in 2003, I mean there are no major recalls, no major reliability problems. It's only real flaws are lack of manual trans., the powerplant's a little outdated, and the interior could use some work in the quality of materials dept.

maxhonda99 · November 2002

fjk57702, You seem to have left alot of cars out, only the S-class, 7-series and A8 are high-end luxury sedans? You're missing a whole lot.

Forgetting the Lexus LS430 and Jaguar XJ8.

fjk57702 · November 2002

Those should qualify too. I consider Rolls way beyond high-end. I think Cadillac isn't quite there. But all in all, Cadillac is not a bad car, if you can get one for $10000 off list.

After looking at the prices, the lexus is maybe not quite there.

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

the CTS does have a manual transmission, and will have a new V6 and an available V8 next year I believe, and also I have heard that the interior styling will change.

stevestein · November 2002

You can't just go by price. The LS430 definately fits in the category, judging by the cars many buyers are chosing between, and the target markets. Some of the owners (for whom the $ wasn't a big issue) have chosen it over S500's. Toyota is just able to offer the car at a great price. The value you get for the dollar shouldn't diminish the status of the car. An 85,000 Yugo (I don't want to get anyone's dander up) still wouldn't make the high end luxury marque grade, but the 55-75K LS does.

magnetophone · November 2002

A lot of Lexus owners who prefer the LS430 were weaned on Lexuses.. they were part of the newer-money younger group and have stuck with what they started on.

Any brand can be a good brand with the right reliability and quality and design to back it up. There are plenty of once-sorry brands that are now considered upwardly mobile... Audi, Skoda, even Toyota and Hyundai to an extent.

merc1 · November 2002

" I make that acknowledge flaws in Cadillac."

I guess that means you see that Cadillac has a problem.

" What I said was that many entry level luxury cars have interiors that need work. Any comment on that? "

No, because we weren't talking about the other cars here, just Cadillac. Why is that so hard to understand? This was about Cadillac, not the rest. Plus no other car other than the IS300 has to have their interior redone in just one model year.

I said that Cadillac will have trouble selling a car for 80K. Yes that is my opinion and everyone else's in the car industry. Why is that you brought up how many cars Cadillac sells and what prices they sell them at? For one Cadillac hasn't done anything in the last 30+ years that warrant them selling anything near 80K. Nothing. Why is it that GM fans are the ones that can't grasp the concept of lineage and reputation? DeVilles are discounted heavily as are Sevilles. Cadillac hasn't groomed anyone for a 80K car, so yes that price for a Cadillac will be a shock for many. The same price shock that you're trying to imply that VW will have Cadillac will also have.

" Once again I state, this is not VW, this is cadillac. They are not going from entry level cars to super-lux cars. Theya re going from semi-expensive vehicles to very expensive vehicles. They are also planning V12 powered models that will cost more than the XLR."

For once you're correct, Cadillac isn't VW. The difference there is VW makes at least ONE car that is at the top of their respective class. Cadillac doesn't have one car that is anywhere near the top of any class. VW is doing what Lexus did in 1990, but with the same brand. Cadillac is reaching for new heights and hasn't truly made a mark on their present market.

About the CTS. Why is it that only Cadillac introduces a car for one year and then promises that next years will be better. Why not the best car possible at launch? If you can't see that some buyers are turned off by that then you don't understand the luxury market. You mention the Audi A6. That car made it on styling and quality of build alone and it's available with other engines. Nor was the original A6 2.8 billed as a sports sedan in the same way the CTS is.

Please list all the major flaws for those luxury cars that caused their makers to install a totally new base engine and redo their interiors in just ONE model year. Those things having to be done to the CTS scream half-baked, unfinished product. Period.

M

fjk57702 · November 2002

Well, the CTS was introduced by the old GM management and it was the car they wanted. Lutz is the new GM management and he decided that the CTS needed to be better. The CTS interior is on a par with the 3 series and other competition I think. Personally, I think the door trim needs some work and the car would be much nicer (at least the luxury package should upgrade the door trim more than just a few sticks of wood).

Anyone who does not understand that GM management has recently undergone a change in management is totally clueless. This comment is not directed at anyone in particular.

magnetophone · November 2002

Yet we have to wait and see what a post-Lutz car looks like.

fjk57702 · November 2002

If you all would look back at the beginning of this thread, you will see that the base price should exceed $49999.99 to qualify as high end. Cadillac does not meet these qualifications with any current production model. The CTS is not even close. I fail to see why Cadillac is a topic of discussion here.

magnetophone · November 2002

The Escalade is the only cadillac product that generally ends up being sold for more than $50K, so I agree.

fjk57702 · November 2002

The base price was the critiera, not the fully optioned out price. And I would go on to say the base model (for example the base Deville) sets the base price. Thus for Mercedes, the S class qualifies while the E class does not.

So, lets try to get this discussion back on track.

maxhonda99 · November 2002

"I fail to see why Cadillac is a topic of discussion here."

True, the CTS definately isn't high end, and neither is the DTS or STS. And as far as the XLR goes, it will be high end, but this is a "sedans" topic. Someone should create a convertible high end topic and rant all about how the XLR will squash the competition.

This topic should be discussing the LS430, A8, 745i, S-class, XJ8, and I know I'm probably missing a couple of other cars.

magnetophone · November 2002

The VW Phaeton!

brtmd · November 2002

Re # 1892: Your thoughts on "weaning" are probably true for some. It was just the opposite for me; I was weaned on Mercedes and ended up choosing the LS over the S and 7. When the time comes again to choose a new vehicle, I will probably be looking at the same "good brands". Perhaps by then MB will have their reliability back where I feel it should be.
Maybe the Phaeton will make my shopping list next time around.

magnetophone · November 2002

Well, I look at it like this way - Mercedes-Benz is the brand I want to own when I am a rich person. Granted I do have a 190E now, but that's not a new Benz.

If I am anything less than rich, I want a car that is a safer, more affordable investment to begin with and Mercedes is not that. But if money is no object, neither are repair bills.

brtmd · November 2002

magnetophone: I understand what you are saying. But for me, repair bills and affordability were not the issue in my decision. My "happiness" and time are more valuable to me than my money--in all situations. Dealing with a variety of irksome problems became annoying and competed with my enjoyment of the vehicle. So far I have had nothing but enjoyment from my Lexus, and zero problems; I couldn't even imagine that was possible a few months ago. BTW, many people are rich in part because they refuse to say "money is no object".

wishnhigh1 · November 2002

"BTW, many people are rich in part because they refuse to say "money is no object"."

Amen to that. It is the people that say "money is no object" that fulfill the fool part of the saying "A fool and his money are soon parted".

stevestein · November 2002

I just browsed through the BMW movies. They do a great job defining the image they want to project..top level performance. I could never imagine Lexus going for an ad campaign like that, even though they could probably get a pro driver to mimic most of the same actions. I guess I see these two as the alpha and omega of the group as far as the comfort/performance spectrum. I think it would be hard for anyone who "feels right" in one of these to be really comfortable owning the other.

merc1 · November 2002

I hardly agree with that. The CTS' interior isn't on par with the 3-Series, not at all. The CTS needs more wood or none at all. That coating on the top of the dash feels terrible. The E500 is definitely "high-end" going by that 49.9K threshold.

M

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