High End Luxury Cars

brightness04 · October 2006

Discounting does not automaticly mean financial death sentence righ away, if the price was marked up to begin with. A classic example is jewlry: has any of us ever purchased diamond at full appraised value, instead of say, 30%, 50% or even 70% below "appraised value"? Obviously, jewlers are not going out of buisiness in droves. They have been doing it for decades. Marking up then offer "incentives" is the classic game played by purveyors of luxury goods. It makes no difference to the eventual bottom line at all whether an S class is priced at $80k for a straight sale or lease it at $100k with a $60k residual then later auction the car off at $40k . . . ignoring interests for the moment, the car company gets $80k from the car through either sales method.

There are however three consequences of this game:

(1) a higher sales revenue is booked at inception of the lease, to be followed by a $20k write-down disgorgement three years later. So long as the sales volume is expanding, the front-ending of the book (ie. more new cooked up sales than lease return coming back to roost) looks good for the current quarter. The day the sales volume drops (i.e. not enough new cooked up sales to offset write-downs from previous fake sales), the company is in trouble. That's how the domestics ran into trouble a decade ago: they had to increase volume at all cost. In other words, this particular marketting method can be either a profit booster or loss booster . . . it's a leveraged play on sales growth.

(2) It allows the leasers to brag about having a car with higher MSRP: $100k vs. $80k, even if the real worth of the car (ie. the life time revenue of the car for the manufacturer) is the same $80k.

(3) In states that collect excise tax based on MSRP, it results in a higer tax bill.

tagman · October 2006

I mean, how much is a $50 Filet Mignon really worth if it comes with a $20 gift certificate

Even MORE . . . $70 :P

(I get your point, though)

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

And somehow, you would go to the steakhouse insisting on charging $50 for the chunk of meat and give you $20 back, instead of another one that simply charges $30 for the same chunk of meat to begin with? Guess what, you are simply out on the tax on the extra $20 plus the whatever tip per centage you normally pay.

edit: See your edit. Thanks for the witty reparte :-)

tagman · October 2006

Thanks for the witty reparte

You're welcome.

Ever since I said that the "LS is all sizzle and no steak, and the S-Class is all steak and no sizzle" . . . all we're talking about any more is freakin' steaks, steakhouses, chunks of meat, taxes, tips, and gift certificates! What the heck's going on here? Are we opening up a darned restaurant or something? Heck, you want it medium-rare or well-done?

To the point . . . I have yet to see your real numbers showing a loaded LS460L compared to an S-Class.

You guys were trying to make it sound as though the prices were miles apart. And I just don't think they are. That's what this is really about.

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

I actually have been suspecting for some time that the life-time revenue for the manufacturer on an S class, aside from the S600, is not much more than that of the LS (LS430!). Whatever difference the inflated MSRP on an S may suggest just simply gets disgorged when the car gets auctioned off way below the residual after lease return. The new LS460L simply matches up with S600 in thar regard. If you are saying now that MSRP's are even comparable, then Lexus may actually generate more life-time revenue on each LS than MB does on the S . . . a state of affair IMHO quite inevitable following the trends of the past decade.

merc1 · October 2006

All comparisons count, but I due place more credit on beating 6-7 cars in a comparison than 1 or 2 cars.

That is bunk doc. What difference does it make how many cars is in a comparo. That is absurd and a naked attempt to say that the LS430's wins are more important than the SC430's losses or the more expensive MB's wins.

Apparently you didn't get my point, which was that winning a comparison and being #1 in sales have different values to different people.

Yeah apparently, but the problem here is which you choose to talk about at any given time depending on the Lexi in question. That is my point, your too whishy washy with the whole comparo/sales rhetoric. Example:

Lexus has stated they want to sell 30k GS a year. As far as I can tell, every month they are getting 2500 a month out of it, so even if it isn't King of The Mountain, it is successful to it's maker, and to 30k buyers.

Translation: the GS doesn't win comparos or outsell the German competition so I'll pick on a new upstart and throw in the "long as it is selling" line for good measure.

The SC doesn't have to win comparisons to be a success. Neither does the C-Class. Or the Lexus ES.

Cop out. Plain an simple because if the SC was a comparo test winner you'd be shouting about it as you do the LS. That is far too hypocritical doc. The car doesn't outsell the German competition nor does it beat it in comparos, but it is still a success when it flunks two of your biggest test? Yeah ok. What a gloss over. Oh now the C-Class can be success, but I seem to remember correcting you C-Class sales a while back, and now it is be a success when it doesn't win comparos, but before it was a bottom feeder?

If the boring LS can, consistently, win comparisons with other sexier, sportier, more powerful rides, it says something about Lexus and their ability to execute.

Now comparos are important again just that quick right?

I remember when the 1996 Isuzu Trooper won an 8-truck SUV comparison in C&D.

Would you call the Trooper a success? No. Why? Because no one bought one.

Pretty desperate to have to go back 10 years for that one to make a point in defense of Lexus.

Which way is up?

M

brightness04 · October 2006

The number of cars in a comparo does matter when judging the value of a comparo, for three reasons:

(1) many of the criteria used in a comparo are subjective rankings, not hard numbers (even hard numbers are problematic, how many tenths of an inch in shoulder room offsets how many tenths of a second to 60mph??, you get the point :-). So in a field of very few cars, it utterly comes down to the weight assigned to each category. Whereas in a field of many cars, because points are dependent on relative rankings, the sheer number of entries makes the rankings more meaningful.

(2) Comparos with more cars also tend to involve more people, hence less likely to be beholden to the agenda of a couple individuals.

(3) Comparos with more cars also tend to divest the testers' prejudice as they broaden their horizon.

GS is not the only Lexus entry for a midsize luxury sedan/wagon. Just a hint: Lexus sells 110k midsize luxury sedans a year. If we want to bring the Lexus compeition to A6, 5 and E wagons into the discussion as well, Lexus sells well over 200k units of midsize luxury sedans and wagons in the US every year. Many midsize luxury sedan buyers find ES350 to be adequate, just like many 5 series buyers find 525 and 530 adequate. Enthusiasts and comparo writers may find 525xi (or was that 530xi?) an utter disaster, just like FWD ES is pathetic in handling . . . for most buyers who want to have a cushy ride while stuck in traffic, and occasionally get themselves around in snow, both cars are adequate. That is market reality.

drfill · October 2006

On your own admission, sales AND comparisons are maybe the two best ways to judge the value/effectiveness of a car in the marketplace.

Therefore, either side of the coin can be used, no?

If a car is successful when judged against it's peers, that's good. But if it can't be sold, that bad.

Are you calling the SC a failure? :confuse:

Regarding the GS, let me state again, for the umpeenth time, it's not what I would've designed, but it is meeting the target numbers for Lexus, so it maybe successful TO LEXUS. I didn't say I'm THRILLED with it. It's not simantics. That's what I said before.

Is it Lexus GS/ES successful, no. Is it winning comparisons, no. I'm not making excuses for it, or apologizing. It is doing the job for Lexus, but I know Lexus can do better.

I'm not trying to discredit any Mercedes comparison victory. My point was if I beat on man in a race, it's not as impressive as winning the NYC Marathon. It just isn't.

In the lower classes, it's harder to get a win, because you are taking on more competitors at once.

In relation to Mercedes, since you are making an issue of it, I have never seen a Mercedes beat a manual tranny BMW in any comparison. So as long as Mercedes doesn't have to offer true sport in the car, they can win.

The M5/6 doesn't seem to offer a manual anymore, so the E55/65/CLK55 is more attractive to performance drivers.

Many would just get a pre-owned M5. :shades:

In that price range, manuals are harder to come by, which plays to Mercedes advantage, since manuals are not implemented by Mercedes.

With a slushbox, the car's spirit is severely restrained, and it can never really be a driver's car.

AMGs to me are bullet trains, but I wouldn't want to put a bullet train in my garage.

DrFill

dewey · October 2006

Luxury and discounts are not a contradiction for Lexuses or Benzes or any other major luxury marque. Each marque has their own form of discounting. MB and BMW engage more in generous lease deal while Lexus engages more in purchase discounts. That is the nature of the game.

For instance the reason BMW can make BIG $$$ in generous lease deals is because their autos have the highest retained values in the industry. Otherwise BMW would engage more in purchase discounts like Lexus.

actually have been suspecting for some time that the life-time revenue for the manufacturer on an S class, aside from the S600, is not much more than that of the LS (LS430!). Whatever difference the inflated MSRP on an S may suggest just simply gets disgorged when the car gets auctioned off way below the residual after lease return. The new LS460L simply matches up with S600 in thar regard. If you are saying now that MSRP's are even comparable, then Lexus may actually generate more life-time revenue on each LS than MB does on the S . . . a state of affair IMHO quite inevitable following the trends of the past decade.

The above analysis is based on mere conjecture with no substantiation whatsoever. Both the S and new LS 460L will soon have discounts. MSRPs for both models will soon become irrelevant.

If you have facts to back up what you are saying then please provide them .
There appears to be little meat in your argument. As the little old lady asked Wendy's CEO: "Where's the Beef?".

brightness04 · October 2006

The point is not about cash discounts (which all dealers eventually engage in, and truthfully reflected in the nominal transaction price), but on lease residual and interest/money-factor subsidies. Lexus residuals are realistic, whereas the redisuals on some of the German models are completely unrealistic; that makes the nominal "sale" price (not MSRP) on these same cars in a lease contract highly suspect.

The fact is quite obvious: far higher percentage of MB and BMW's are leased nowadays . . . clear indication that there is heavy subsidy in the leases that make the nominal purchase price unappealing for a conventional purchase.

BTW, what's the deal with Europhiles' obsession with meats ;-) Like Tagman said, let's get back to the cars. It was bad enough to be side tracked by upscale steakhouse analogies, let's not bring the burger vendors in here ;-)

dewey · October 2006

Lexus residuals are realistic, whereas the redisuals on some of the German models are completely unrealistic; that makes the nominal "sale" price (not MSRP) on these same cars in a lease contract highly suspect.

What kind of proof is that? MSRP is irrelevant independent of whether it is a lease or purchase cash deal?

Brightness if you want to continue this discussion please back it up with $$$ and facts versus mere armchair conjectures that cannot be proved or disproved.

brightness04 · October 2006

Please read my previous post again. The discussion is not on MSRP, but on the nominal "sale" price in a lease contract, and how truthful it is. There is a "sale" price in a lease contract; that's the amount BMW or MB takes out of one pocket and puts in another, and call it current revenue in their books, and then counted towards average vehicle sale price (the write-down that comes 24 to 36 months later is not taken into account for average vehicle sale price)

Go check out auction prices on lease returns. The prices onlease returned BMW and MB are fetching are way below the residual. Checkout what third-party banks are willing to give you as lease residual . . . they are inline with what Lexus would give you on their cars, but way lower than what BMW and MB are offering. Even many Europhiles are realizing this phenomenom; that's why they insist on leasing only, to take advantage of the offer.

dewey · October 2006

Really?

Where are these disgustingly low auctioned prices on MBs and BMWs and those golden high auctioned prices on Lexuses?
Appreciate it if you can link me to that site or group of sites. I myself would love to buy such a deal. Such low prices would make it worth importing a used BMW from USA to Canada even with the customs issues involved.

brightness04 · October 2006

There is no golden high auction prices for Lexuses. They are just inline with what Lexus predicts in their lease offers (and the offers from third-party banks). The problem with MB and BMW is that their residuals are way above auction value. You can find out the numbers first-hand by going to dealer auctions.

If you do not have that opportunity, a proximation can be found by simply looking at the trade-in values on the cars on edmund's website, take for example:

a 2003 745i's trade-in value is 36k, vs. new 750i MSRP of $72k, or 50% of MSRP in 3yrs. There was very little price change between 745i and 750i.

a 2003 LS430's trade-in value is 33k, vs. new LS430 MSRP of $52k, or 63% of MSRP in 3rs.

The current lease residual on 750i offered by BMW is 60% of MSRP, clearly not born out by the numbers from Edmunds; whereas what Lexus is offering on LS lease is 57%. Remember, the per centage of MSRP in a lease applies to the entire vehicle purchase including all options' MSRP . . . whereas in reality as we know the options don't add up to much in used sale value.

dewey · October 2006

Interesting how you used a 2003 7 series as a comparison to the 03 LS

We all know the notirety involved with a 03 7 series model with its new revolutionary idrive system and reliability issues.

The two biggest US organizations that are in the business of determing retained and future resale values voted BMW overall as number one. Ofcourse if you compare one single model from one single year that happens to be the notorious 03 7 series then you will definitely succeed in proving otherwise.

Also I dont know if you are aware of this but higher priced vehicles usually involve higher rates of depreciation . As you know the prices of a 03 LS resembles more closely the prices of a 03 BMW 545 series than a 7 series.

If you honestly believe that this one example you provided proves that BMW/MBs sell for dirt cheap auction prices(which you apparently have no proof of) while Lexuses dont sell at dirt cheap auctioned prices (again no proof) then I will allow you to have that belief.

brightness04 · October 2006

The meat in your bun is turning out to be soy :-)

03 7 series was used because it's three years ago and 7 series is the car that fits this HELM forum. First model year actually tends to have better value retention because there is usually less discount at the beginning of a model run. If you insist, we can look at the 04 7 series. Edmund's trade in is $43k . . . that's 60% after 2 yrs, compared to 50% after 3yrs for 03 745 . . . hmm, I'd stick with the 03 if I were trying to make your argument.

03 540i has a trade-in value of $29k (rounded up), compared to new 550 MSRP of $57k (rounded down), or 51% of MSRP after 3yrs (even after the roundings adding nearly $1k, or 2-3%, to value retention). It's not even close to the 63% of 03 LS430.

Like I said, your "meats" are fake, mere counter-factual prejudices.

745i is one example. Now you have added 540i yourself voluntarily. You can run the numbers yourself on all the main line models from MB and BMW, and more or less getting the same result. Only 3 series before E90 had high value rentention . . . that and some the relatively exotic models like the M and AMG cars. In any case, once you run though the numbers, you'd realize just how inflated the residuals are on MB and BMW cars . . . and that many of your fellow Europhiles are no fools for leasing.

tagman · October 2006

If you honestly believe that this one example you provided proves that BMW/MBs sell for dirt cheap auctions prices(which you apparently have no proof of) while Lexuses dont sell at dirt low auctioned prices (again no proof) then I will allow you to have that belief.

You are doing good here with this argument, dewey. Stay with it.

Brightness04 keeps inferring that Lexus is worth its retail price, and that Mercedes and BMW MSRPs are inflated. Heck, a fully-equipped LS460L is not a price bargain by any means, especially considering the car. Lexus has abandoned low price structures, with exception for the basic LS460.

And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney.

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

Not just MSRP, but nominal "sale" price in leases . . . as the majority of BMW and MB are leased nowadays.

Lease residual vs. auction price is certainly no baloney. The difference is the money that nobody ever paid to the manufacturer in the lease transaction. It's even more dishonest than mail-in rebates or giving a free luxury car for buying a condo, to keep the nominal sales up; at least in these latter cases, actual transfer of money from the buyer (or its banking agent) to the seller do take place.

I do agree that LS460L may not be much of a price bargain. Incidentally, if you follow my logic, you'd notice that, even LS430 is not much of a bargain if one is willing to go the lease route on the MB and BMW's. i.e. MB and BMW actually cost a lot less than their MSRP (or avearage "sale" price for that matter) when subsidized leases are taken into account.

hpowders · October 2006

BMW's are always given the CR coveted red circle for depreciation, meaning "excellent."
Every single BMW rated in the April 2006 CR was given the red circle except for new models which weren't rated.
Very few cars hold their value as well as BMW's and this has been true all the way back to the lamented Bavaria and 2002 models of the 1970's.
Admittedly, the residuals are a little inflated on the BMWFS leases, but not by much!

dewey · October 2006

Ingenious Brightness, ingenious!

The data you point out from Edmunds is valid for the number of cars involved . The sampled examples in Edmunds is substantially smaller than the samples used by the two biggest organizations that are in the business of future resale values/retained values and CR itself. In otherwords Edmunds datais more prone to sampling errors. If I am going to rely on stats I am going to rely on the ones with a bigger samples.

And which brings me back to my original point:

Your view that BMW/MB values are selling at dirt low prices at auctions is bunk. You yourself cant prove it. Can you?.

Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk. And now excuse me I am going to have some serious steak Tartar with raw egg yolk( raw fish is far too over-rated in my opionion)

brightness04 · October 2006

1. BMW sells far more 3 series than 5 and 7 combined. 3 series before E90 had very good value rentention. The heavy discounting on E90 had not yet begun or had its effect by April 2006.

2. CR also gives red circle to Lexus. In a sea of domestics, both brands are fine, especially if BMW numbers are dominated by pre-E90 3 series.

I'd call 60% residual vs. 50% actual auction pretty big discrepancy. The monthly payment would have been nearly a 33% higher if the true 50% residual were used (assuming 10% reduction in nominal sale price from MSRP). On cars like E46 convertibles right now, with nearly 20% off MSRP negotiated capitalization cost possible, a 10% MSRP decrease in residual (from 60% to 50%) would increase payment by 50%. I'd say, that's a huge difference.

dewey · October 2006

And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney.

Baloney. Meat? There you go again.

brightness04 · October 2006

CR has data on the BMW brands not 7 series specificly. The last time CR did its survey, the BMW brand value retention was predominated by E46 3 series. That's a whole different ball game from the 7 series under discussion in this HELM board. . . it's even different from today's E90, which is witnessing price discounts that had been unheard of this early in a BMW 3 series model cycle.

I have been to auctions, so I know what it's like first-hand. For obvious industry profit reasons, those numbers are not widely published. If you think your own preconceived notions are more valid than Edmunds' numbers, that's your problem. It's rather hard to believe that they would consistently get it wrong on all main line MB and BMW models. The reality is that, from what I have seen, they are rather generous in their numbers.

Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk.

You can stuff your fingers in your ear and say blah blah all you want. The reality is that the market place is well aware this phenomenom, and explains why most of your fellow Europhiles are leasing nowadays.

brightness04 · October 2006

I randomly picked 03 745i because it's a 3yr old model and a model that fits the HELM forum. You augmented my argument by bringing up 04 745i and 03 540i, without running through the numbers yourself first. You will get the same result if you run the numbers on other models. Now, instead of discussing the substance, you prefer personal attacks.

dewey · October 2006

I have been to auctions, so I know what it's like first-hand. For obvious industry profit reasons, those numbers are not widely published.

Huh huh so now you know the inside story on what numbers are published and what numbers are not published in the industry.

Wow!

Dont worry Brightness I am not going to ask you how you know that? You are not under prosecution at least not here in these forums. But I would just love to be the prosecutor in this one single case of yours :P

You can stuff your fingers in your ear and say blah blah all you want. The reality is that the market place is well aware this phenomenom

And ofcourse you yourself know that phenemona which is unpublished

brightness04 · October 2006

This is getting ridiculous. If you don't believe Edmunds, check out KBB yourself. It's more or less the same. If you don't believe that either, bribe a used car dealer to bring you to auctions that require dealer license. Obviously, those auctions require dealer license because the insiders do not want average consumer to have access to them . . . the same reason why the results are not published (not to mention little profit could be generated from selling the data to dealers).

All the personal attacks really do not add to your argument. If your argument is that Edmunds numbers are way off base, the onus is on you to prove it. I just used their numbers in here for the sake of simplicity, and they are close enough, from what I have seen.

BTW, how did I get access to dealer auctions? I had a roommate when I was out of college and relatively poor, and her boyfriend runs a used car lot and a mechanics shop. They eventually moved in together and got married, but he still takes care of my out-of-warranty repairs and wear items like brakes etc.. Much of his profit is from buying and selling lease returns. He brought me and some of my family relatives to those auctions when we wanted cars.

hpowders · October 2006

"CR also gives red circle to Lexus."

Not entirely true:

If you look at CR April 2006, you will find a perfect 4 out of 4 BMW vehicles rated excellent for depreciation. Three weren't rated because they were either new models or not enough data were collected.

For Lexus vehicles, 4 vehicles were rated excellent, 3 were rated very good (includes the LS) and one wasn't rated because it was a new model (IS).

tagman · October 2006

I do agree that LS460L may not be much of a price bargain.

That's good. We're closing the gap here.

And the difference between that larger-than-expected fully-equipped LS460L price and an S-Class is the point here.

You were saying that the S-Class price is inflated. I'll close the gap a bit with you myself by saying that I think Mercedes could benefit by lowering the price slightly, because I have posted that opinion in the past.

But, for the most part, I believe that the S-Class delivers more than enough of a return for its price.

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

What's the rating on the 7 series? and what are the criteria for "excellent" vs. "very good"?

brightness04 · October 2006

Value is inherently subjective (that's why we have a market of so many different cars :-) It would be rather boring if everyone has the exact same taste. That being said, I was pointing out how much the average buyers of S and LS are really paying for their cars. Presumably, the fact that they are shelling out the money means the car is worth that much to them. In that analysis, it's helpful to keep out all the fluff numbers that people were not actually paying.

tagman · October 2006

Just take a peak and you'll understand how bad an SUV could look. Since it's a Lambo, I'll post it here.

Lamborghini SUV

TagMan

dewey · October 2006

Why bother? In fact the ugliest SUV I've ever seen is a picture of a potential Bentley SUV.
Lambos certainly look better as sports cars.

dewey · October 2006

you don't believe Edmunds, check out KBB yourself.

Yes I checked KBB and guess what?

KBB has consistently for many years selected BMW as the number one brand for resale values . At least those figures can be confirmed and are widely publicized versus those supposed personal auction stories of yours about very dirt-low prices for BMWs and Benzes.

In fact if I preferred Jaguars instead of BMWs then I would save my money and buy a used Jaguar instead of a new one. Oh yes and KBB does confirm the low resale values of Jags.

lexusguy · October 2006

Just take a peak and you'll understand how bad an SUV could look. Since it's a Lambo, I'll post it here.

It cant be any worse than this.

houdini1 · October 2006

I think they had Isuzu make that up for them. Yes, it is past ugly. It is Fugly.

hpowders · October 2006

The long-awaited comprehensive review of the LS 460 is out from Edmunds, which happens to be one of the most respected reviewing sites in the world, and the verdict: the brakes are indeed grabby. This finding completely vindicates the wonderful review I quoted several weeks ago from "4 Car", which came to the same finding as well as my quote in post #18349: "I predict several of them ( reviewers in the future) will mention the grabby brakes."

Also, Edmunds, like Car and Driver, could not replicate the 0-60mph time of 5.4 seconds claimed by Lexus. Best Edmunds could achieve was 5.8 seconds. Is it possible that Car and Driver and Edmunds are both wrong?

Edmunds also found the suspension to be too floaty. (surprise!)

Given the subpar brakes and suspension of the new LS, I would be demanding my deposit back if I had made one, and put it immediately towards a BMW 7 Series. There are better choices out there, IMO.

There is no way anybody should be paying $60k-$75k for floaty suspension and grabby brakes!

houdini1 · October 2006

Then I am sure you would never want an 07 Mercedes S 550. It cost over $104,000. One Edmunds editor called it sleep inducing, and another said it took him all of 90 seconds to realize he was not a fan of this car. Fairly damning I would say. I'll take the slightly grabby brakes and $40,000. in the glove box to cheer me up.

hpowders · October 2006

If I got discouraged by reading the LS 460 reviews (and I would if I was in the market for one), but still wanted the luxurious appointments that Lexus gives you in its flagship, since the LS 430 and 460 are not that different from a driving standpoint, I would be e-mailing every Lexus dealer within 200 miles to make the sweetest deal I could on the outgoing LS 430. You could probably get one with the ML/nav luxury package for about$45k-$50k instead of the $56k, at the beginning of this year. They will be desperate at this time to unload them. I would write my price in at $45k and let them think about it.

I'd be even happier with $59k in the glove compartment.

tagman · October 2006

Then I am sure you would never want an 07 Mercedes S 550. It cost over $104,000. One Edmunds editor called it sleep inducing, and another said it took him all of 90 seconds to realize he was not a fan of this car. Fairly damning I would say. I'll take the slightly grabby brakes and $40,000. in the glove box to cheer me up.

It is downright useless to single out any review or source of reviews and make a conclusion. It is absolutely necessary to get to what is a concensus and a clear majority to determine what is really going on. Extreme views, whether positive or negative, do not represent the more balanced majority. This applies to any car, not just the LS or S-Class.

The vast clear majority of reviews of the S-Class were quite clear. The obvious concensus was that the vehicle represents the latest benchmark. Since then, no other concensus has occurred to overthrow the S-Class.

Say what you will, but that makes the S-Class the heavyweight champ and the LS a noteworthy contender that couldn't quite take the title.

The S550 benchmark comes at a price, but, it is certainly obvious that the LS460 standard wheelbase, is a lot cheaper than the long-wheelbase S550 benchmark. So anyone could buy the LS and save themselves a pile of money. And they could save even more money by buying an economy car.

It doesn't take a mathematician to realize that a cheaper car saves money that can be put in a glovebox. So what?

TagMan

blkhemi · October 2006

that BMW retains value better than all cars in it's class. Although not in it's class, but worthy of mention, only Porsche does it better.

blkhemi · October 2006

Hey Tag, it's a shame to have to troll through one review that says what one editor's opinion is on the S.

Well, for the other 34 reviews that I've read, the S550 is still without peer on all fronts. And this has been said by the most repected journals and editors in the biz, the Lexi fav. C&D Editor-In-Chief Csaba Cere for one.

lexusguy · October 2006

Also, Edmunds, like Car and Driver, could not replicate the 0-60mph time of 5.4 seconds claimed by Lexus. Best Edmunds could achieve was 5.8 seconds. Is it possible that Car and Driver and Edmunds are both wrong?

Edmunds is Capt. Slow. Their 0-60 times are always at least a half second slower than the major automags. Look up any car review you want, Edmunds is always .5 slower. If they can do 5.8, that means most of the mags should be able to do 5.3 or so with brake torquing.

You'll also notice that Edmunds braking distances were perfectly respectable. Care to take back all of your comments about horrible brakes from C&D's test? C&D obviously had a pre-production car that still needed tweaking done.

brightness04 · October 2006

Check KBB again, this time read the details. The KBB trade-in value for a 03 745i with 36k miles in good condition is below $36k, in other words even lower than that of Edmunds . . . the KBB trade-in value for 04 745i with 24k miles in good condition is only about $40k, in other words again lower (this time more substantially) than that of Edmunds.

BMW as a brand may have been fine in years past because the brand's sales was dominated by 3 series, and E90 did not exist for the overwhelming majority of those "many years" . . . heck does any of those "many years" include E90 at all for used car valuation??

The relevant BMW car for this forum is 7 series, not E46 3 series. So look up KBB valuation for 7 series value retention vs. that of LS, not BMW in general, which was/is always dominated by the 3 series.

hpowders · October 2006

Maybe so, but it's now on the record that 2 esteemed professional reviewers both came up about a half second slower on the 0-60 mph time than the Lexus-provided number.

I never said that the grabby brakes were horrible brakes. They will stop the car effectively.
But they are distracting and annoying. One shouldn't have to have specially trained feet to modulate these brakes to a smooth stop and when you are spending serious money on a vehicle, and several reviewers point out the grabby brakes, the customer deserves better and Lexus should have provided such.
I experienced similar brakes already with the GS 430 and know first hand how annoying they can be.

If one finds the new LS 460 brakes to be grabby, then I maintain the brakes are "subpar" even though their stopping power may be entirely effective.

lexusguy · October 2006

Given the subpar brakes and suspension of the new LS, I would be demanding my deposit back if I had made one, and put it immediately towards a BMW 7 Series. There are better choices out there, IMO.

But you didnt make one. This car is going to appeal to any LS owner. The LS has never had a performance suspension, and its never had amazing styling. These things are not going to deter repeat buyers. I won't make comments about the brakes until I've gotten behind the wheel myself, but even if they are grabby, the LS is hardly the only car with them. Even your fave BMW has grabby brakes.

I seriously doubt LS owners are going to be jumping ship for a 7 series. You buy the LS for its reliability, its comfort, and its simplicity. The 7 has none of those things. The new LS will probably not get much of any more conquest sales than the old car, but I think Lexus owners are going to be quite pleased with it.

pat · October 2006

The relevant BMW car for this forum is 7 series, not E46 3 series.

Indeed.

Also the G35, C-Class and any number of other vehicles which keep coming up here aren't HELMs and I know than none of you think they are.

I b'lieve I asked for this very recently, but I've gotta ask again - we need to to keep the main focus on the high end vehicles here. Let's keep that in mind.

Thanks!

brightness04 · October 2006

The vast clear majority of reviews of the S-Class were quite clear. The obvious concensus was that the vehicle represents the latest benchmark. Since then, no other concensus has occurred to overthrow the S-Class.
Say what you will, but that makes the S-Class the heavyweight champ and the LS a noteworthy contender that couldn't quite take the title.

Keep in mind that LS is just now coming to the market, so there is no time for new concensus on LS yet, whereas the New S has had quite a few months on the market. LS and S being the top two sellers in this market segment, obviously they are benchmarks that other players have to contend with.

The S550 benchmark comes at a price, but, it is certainly obvious that the LS460 standard wheelbase, is a lot cheaper than the long-wheelbase S550 benchmark . . . And they could save even more money by buying an economy car.

By economy car, are you talking about the $15k B class or the $199/mo C230? It's a bit over the line to compare the price tag of a short wheelbase car from one company to the long wheelbase car from another when both companies offer both short and long, then call one of the brands cheap. How long do you think will be before S430 or perhaps even S350 is here?? Before they are, we can compare the real acquisition cost of S550(L) with LS460L if you want a head-on price comparision. Currently, S550 has a lease residual of 61% . . . a level of value retention that was hardly ever achieved by any previous generation mainline S class in real world used car auctions.

hpowders · October 2006

You are correct. I did not make a deposit on the new LS.
Nor can I argue with anything else in your post right down to my vehicle's brakes.

One thing I will say. My next vehicle will have nice, smooth brakes. If BMW won't provide them, I will be looking elsewhere. But I really hope they can provide them.

Some folks here mention something called the..uh.. S Class.
Is that any good?

tagman · October 2006

Check my posts. I've been comparing long wheelbase to long wheelbase all along . . . that is until my last post when I indicated that one way Lexus buyers save the money you were referring to is to NOT buy the comparable long wheelbae and compromise to a cheaper car, namely the standard LS460.

This is already a big discussion on the LS boards. There is lots of talk about saving money by getting the short wheelbase, so I think it is a legitimate discussion.

But when it comes down to it, the savings come from purchasing LESS car, namely the standard LS460 as compared to an S-Class. You have already admitted that the LS460L is no price bargain in your recent post. That leaves the shorter LS460.

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

The less car, as LS460 short wheel base vs. LS460L . . . where S class comes into the picture is quite another ball game altogether. S class may not represent any value that a buyer of LS460 wants, so the less vs. more car argument is quite moot. LS460L is the direct competitor to S550. Which one is more price competitive depends on how much lease incentive MB gives in the coming months.

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