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Comments
Glad to see your input and assistance here.
I notice that Larasdada has also voiced an opinion to include the E-Class.
Personally, I think the word "marque", as defined, indicates that we have some latitude here.
One of the reasons I am hopeful we can include the E-Class here is that it would inject some new on-topic discussions here. A number of posters have expressed a real affection for the car when they voted to include it.
Well, either way, no one's going to lose sleep over it, but it could make for some refreshing exchanges around here.
The luxurious and exciting new E-BlueTec, I imagine, will be one of the more interesting models to discuss and watch over time.
TagMan
The MSRP for a GS350 RWD with NAV\ML, PCS, 18" G-Spider wheels, AFS and power rear sunshade is around $53,200.
MSRP for a 450h with the same equipment is $62,805. Thats just about $10K.
That doesn't matter. You can't simply ignore size and equipment levels just because the E starts a few thousand dollars more than the rest. The E350 is a midsize luxury sedan with a V6 engine. The exact same can be said about all the rest, (except for the 5 and its inline). Even the Volvo S80 qualifies for the mid-lux class, as does Jag's poor old S-type. Styling and driving dynamics have nothing to do with what makes a "HELM class" car. And the E class is hardly the leader in driving dynamics. Styling is a subjective thing. I find the E class to be rather bland looking.
The fact that the E is overpriced doesn't make it more of a luxury car than anyone else's mid-lux offering. Now if you wanted the CLS on this board, that would be a little more reasonable. Its not quite S-class level, but its definitely above the mid-lux E, 5, A6, M, GS, RL, STS, S80, S-type class. The Audi A7 and BMW 650 could also be included.
What do all of the cars currently on the board have in common? They're all around the 200" mark. They all come standard with V8s, and many of them offer V12s. They are each respective manufacturer's top-of-the-line range. The E class is none of those things.
What is the resistance to talking about the E-Class where we've already been talking about it and where we can measure it against the vehicles which are commonly seen as its competition? Some of you are already there, but it might be good if some of the rest of you branched out a little... Luxury Performance Sedans.
That said, if you guys want to include it here, have at it. But I don't think it fits the image of the subject nor the original intent of this board.
There. THAT's input. :P
If "marque" is to mean brand instead of model or model lines, then Mercedes-Benz may not qualify at all. Mercedes-Benz is a full-line brand not an exclusive luxury brand. There's nothing high end luxury about the majority of MB cars sold worldwide or in the US: either the $15k A and B classes or the $199-299/mo C-class, or for that matter even the E-class taxi cabs in Europe, even before we get to the touchy subject of how much is E class really fetching in the US.
If a very small minority of cars having high MSRP, like the S-class for MB, makes the whole brand HELM, then we may as well get prepared to include:
Chevy (Corvette Z06 MSRP $70k); more vettes are probably sold than S class in the US.
Ford (GT MSRP $150k)
I'm sure there are lots of fans of Chevy and Ford :-)
Unless of course, someone starts MSRP'ing a car at $50k and selling/leasing it at real price of admission comparable to a $35k car . . . like MB is doing with E class. For the majority of folks, $35k is luxury . . . as in defined by the luxury tax that somehow passed the legislature a decade and half ago (the majority was so overwhelming as to be able to penalize the minority). For the majority of folks, buying a new car is a luxury.
Glad I'm no longer considered a freak or conspirator :-) I know it's tough to be in the political minority. Doubly glad I have some illustrious company on this. For what it's worth, I have been posting on this since the last decade, just off and on as my work load demands. As my current handle implies, it started in 2004. I had a different username before the edmunds forum server change-over (anyone remember the Townhall?) but just so happened that I was extremely busy in 2003 and early 2004 so I forgot my old username and password altogether due to lack of use, and had to register for a new username.
When I first brought it up, it was due to the article I had read, which I linked in the original post.
I then asked what criteria for HELM status is, to see if it did or did not meet that criteria . . . especially since the older LS seemed to meet the criteria (although subject to much debate).
Kirstie suggested a discussion of the matter, so that's what happened. some interesting perspectives have been discussed here, and it's been fun, but unless those that are in favor of inclusion want to push the idea any further, I won't lose a wink of sleep over this either way it goes.
It has already made for some interesting a refreshing discussions, and I would have enjoyed including it, but I can easily enough see and appreciate the reasons for not including it as well, and those points have also been well-made.
In case anyone missed the article that prompted me to ask you all to consider the E-Class, this is a quote from the article:
While not all cars can say this proudly, the E-class can. The new generation of the Mercedes-Benz E Class has taken over the lead in the upper-range segment worldwide immediately following its market launch by selling more than 21,000 vehicles worldwide.
Since its introduction in June, the E-Class is the best-selling upper-range model in Germany, with a current market share of about 45 percent. In September alone, sales rose by eight percent in Germany to more than 6,000 units. As a result, the E Class performed much better than its main competitors.
With a current market share of 34 percent and sales of more than 12,100 vehicles in September, the E-Class also maintained the leading position in Western Europe. The same holds true in the U.S. and Japan, where the Mercedes-Benz upper-range model is clearly in front of its German competitors in the premium segment
I am sure that the trend will stay like this for the near future, with the introduction of the BlueTec engines and its cleanest diesel in the world
Again, it's been a refreshing injection of interesting opinions.
Thanks Pat for your REAL input this time.
TagMan
How so? I keep seeing that lately as part of the argument for "E and no one else gets in to the HELM board", and yet its never explained exactly what about the E makes it more luxurious than an A6, or GS, the other top contenders for luxury in the mid class. I don't see any edge in terms of cabin materials, and the E is certainly not the technology leader of the class, with its last gen COMAND system. I dont think its the conservative\bland styling that makes the E more luxurious. What am I missing?
MSRP for a 450h with the same equipment is $62,805. Thats just about $10K.
There are still equipment differences, for instance AVS and VGRS on the 450h, not available on the 350.
I remember four or five years ago there was a big discussion between almost everyone vs Merc on the Lexus and was it even a HELM car or not...Slowly Merc threw in the towel, but really put up a fight....It was back then that my admiration for Merc grew as he really knew his fact and figures--and was stubborn as could be..Today there are quite a few imo who are right up there with him...Tony
Well, I agree with you.
The problem is that there is no definate line in the sand as to when a car is a HELM, and that's OK with me to leave some latitude.
As the totem pole has its positions, who's on top and who's in the middle and who's on the bottom, I think it was a concensus that the older LS430 was low man on the totem pole up until the new LS460. Now the question is which car is low man?
I thought for a while that the latest E-Class would be a perfect low man on the totem pole, but I'm afraid it looks like it could be an entirely different discussion, you know, as to which of the regularly-accepted HELMs is least qualified, or low man.
If the E is accepted here, then it is the natural low position, and the others are safe. Otherwise, low position is up for grabs. Is it still the LS (standard wheelbase)?
The E-Class is a lot more car than many give it credit for, as I have seen here recently. It is a perfect candidate for the E63 AMG, and yet it is the perfect candidate for the BlueTec. The E63 is a freakin monster of a car, for those that are in the know. The standard E's perform like a bullet, and are very luxurious. No wonder the E-Class is such a great seller . . . worldwide! Mercedes has to be very careful not to let it get too far ahead of itself, as it could slightly cannabalize the S. The E is that good, IMO. Slightly lacking on rear seat legroom, IMO, but not horrible by any means, and that is one of the main distinctions or objections . . . its size.
Seems that many of us like our HELMs to be BIG. I agree to a point, but for me, it's also about the quality, and I see it in the E. The E is a bargain, IMO. I had one once, with the 430 engine . . . the same engine in Merc's CLK. A silky smooth very willing powerhouse that got surprising fuel economy. And now the E550 is even better. The E deserves the 550. One of the best engines to come along in a while. And as I said, it also deserves the AMG variant and the BlueTec. All for that wonderful E-Class that many of us seem to appreciate enough to include it in this forum, but a few of us do not, at least not to the level of HELM inclusion.
The fact that so many would consider the E-Class to be included here is testimony to the greatness of the car, IMO. It's also nice to see the E-Class get some of the recognition here that it has earned . . . and it's earned it on a global level.
Anyway, terrific posts from all, and even from some posters we haven't even heard from in a while.
TagMan
E class is a nice luxury car, in the form of the model range offered in the US. Its large worldwide sales volume however depends on E200 with an inline 1.8L inline4, E220 diesel, and the two E280's (diesel and petro).
E63AMG is a monster, in a brutish way like those shop-tuned Mustangs and Camaros . . . I have a hard time believing that platform designed and built with most unit sales in the form of I4 and small V6 can accommodate such a large engine without adverse effect on handling . . . but then again AMG was never focused on handling.
Nothing too profound, but the E doesn't make it as a HELM, as the others have pointed out, it is eclipsed by the S-Class, so the middle brother does the heavy lifting, but doesn't bask in the spotlight.
I like the car. But the LS460 can still be the start of the HELM class, as far as I'm concerned.
Kinda like Rickey Henderson leading off the game with a Homer!
DrFill
At least you're not claiming the LS460 is at the top of the heap like some others used to do.
I gotta give you credit, Doc, for the way you've posted some rational ideas from time to time.
But don't get too big-headed . . . you've still got some real crazy ideas, too . . .
. . . but I'll admit that I still look forward to reading them.
TagMan
Q45? Sorry, I should have been clearer and phrased that "low man on the HELM totem pole".
I have a hard time believing that platform designed and built with most unit sales in the form of I4 and small V6 can accommodate such a large engine without adverse effect on handling
That's because you under-estimate the E, and AMG knows better.
TagMan
I have my doubts on that, although who can say for sure.
I suspect that it is more likely that we will see the new upcoming LF-type super car will just further expand the top end, and we will continue to still see the ES at the low end. But that's just how I see it at this point.
TagMan
It is a nice car, though.
TagMan
Please say you are joking . . . next you will pick out the top of the Acura line-up and say one of those is a HELM, too.
Or . . . Corolla, Camry, and Avalon! . . . Yes, it's the Avalon! But, which is closer to the ES? The Camry or the Avalon? Answer is the Camry. Isn't it?
Oh wait! What about the Volvo HELM? :P
TagMan
E class variants start at a 1.8L inline4 propelling a car 190" in length. Even the base variant in the US is most comparable to Infiniti M35, which is 192" in length and powered by a 275hp V6, compared to E350's 190" and 265hp V6.
Obviously, Infiniti is a luxury brand.
Cool. I was waiting for someone to suggest the "other" Mercedes. For me, without the E, the next one is easy . . . the CLS!!!!!
I won't kick and scream if it's added however
Neither will I. (just kidding . . . actually, I won't kick and scream if it's NOT added)
TagMan
TagMan
TagMan
TagMan
TagMan
MB's naming convention here is very confusing
You did seem confused there, as you admit, and you did type incorrectly, so it was logical to try to clarify. Sorry if you think I was not polite. All is OK.
TagMan
Not sure which discussion that was, but I've never, ever thrown in any towels anywhere concerning Mercedes or MB vs. Lexus. If anything certain Lexus defenders have left, quit, gave up since 1999, not me. This debate about whether or not a E is a HELM just doesn't interest me enough to really get involved.
It was that bunk about the LS430's sales and what it sold for which didn't make it a HELM IMO and I still stand by that belief. Now the car itself was a cut above the E/5/GS/A6 class in terms of space/luxury though it wasn't nearly as sporty, but it wasn't supposed to be. Maybe that is what I "gave" some on, the LS430 being a HELM by specification?
M
It's pretty much extinguished itself by now. Too bad you weren't into it. Many were, and it was interesting, IMO.
It was that bunk about the LS430's sales and what it sold for which didn't make it a HELM IMO and I still stand by that belief
the LS430 being a HELM by specification?
Thanks for the clarity on that one.
TagMan
I'll take mine with the BlueTec diesel, please.
TagMan
Automobile: "The new LS460 is not just the peer of the leading trio (BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, Audi A8), it provides a new benchmark for the category."
Road and Track: "The best LS yet. A sleek, supremely appointed. luxuriously outfitted freeway flier."
They qualify that, however, with it "is not a numbers car."
In other words, you do much of your driving in a straight line and you want to do it in style, have we got the car for you.
On my monthly perusal of the Lexus LS460 threads, seems like a lot of unhappy campers complaining about lack of rear seat legroom and a poor left foot driver's foot well.
One guy got so incensed, he plans to measure the latter area with a tape measure!
One thing BMW really does great: the left foot driver's foot well. Always enough room and perfectly placed.
I mentioned the CLS like two days ago!
Quoting myself: "Now if you wanted the CLS on this board, that would be a little more reasonable. Its not quite S-class level, but its definitely above the mid-lux E, 5, A6, M, GS, RL, STS, S80, S-type class. The Audi A7 and BMW 650 could also be included."
I'll take a 400lb. lighter car over one with a "sport" suspension setting. The Lexus version of active body control might make the 450h feel a bit less like the overweight porker it is, but thats going to take it up to a cool $65K.
Why would anyone pay extra for active steering? $10K extra? For that?
But when I see big (like 10k) numbers being tossed about as an alleged "hybrid premium" I just like to try to set the record straight.
What is important is that our good host Pat has always given us leeway in the ones that we discuss here. You all know there has been a varied lot. Sometimes it is important to talk about other autos just for the sake of comparison.
I for one hope that the next "Q" will formally qualify. New competition will only help the others. Shoot, maybe it will become the new "benchmark" and take the title away from the new LS. (According to Automobile Mag)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree with you, I was one of the ones saying that the "true" difference in cost between the RX330 and RX400h was not the $10K that it looked like. In this case though, it sure seems like a lot of money for the hybrid. Since AVS and VGRS aren't available as individual items its hard to gauge what their true cost is, but since those two items as well as upgraded wheels and brakes are available on the 460L for less than $3K, I have to assume they wouldn't be more than $700 a piece. Taking that adjustment out, its still $8.5K for less than 40 extra horsepower, or $10K for the hybrid plus those two questionably useful (especially for VGRS) extras.
Very sorry I missed your post. Certainly, the CLS is reasonable.
Regarding the E, I was reaching a bit to see how far we could all go. It's not a problem that it doesn't fit in here, as the CLS most obviously does, and it has and will get some discussion now and then.
But, as it turns out we definately agree on that model, the CLS.
TagMan
You didn't think I wasn't going to catch THAT, did you?
You'll need a larger concensus of reviews beyond Automobile Ragazine to achieve "benchmark" title.
But, true, the new LS460 is very good in some ways, but mostly as compared to its previous models as opposed to the current S-Class, it would seem.
I also noticed those LS "footwell" issues being talked about, and I am curious as to the results of the "tape measure study".
TagMan