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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    acceleration with a built-in "lag" which has to be upgraded time after time with computer software

    I'm sorry, but as a BMW guy, you can't pick on any Lexus for requiring "computer software upgrades". BMW is very, VERY guilty on that one.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I think that other than the computer glitches on the 7 series, BMW offers very reliable cars. And it's a great bonus knowing that all maintanince and repairs are covered for the 4 yrs 50K. I have had great overall experiences with my BMWs and to me their driving dynamics are tops.
    (So much so that when I was shopping for an SUV for my wife, I crossed shopped against the Cayenne and even though it was much less $, I felt that the X5 offered a superior driving experience)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well anecdotally speaking, I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 with no computer glitches. Never any lag. I only experienced this on 2 2005 LS430's.

    Ocassionally, I have come home from intense parties and the BMW pinwheel appeared to be spinning, but I do not attribute that to any BMW computer glitches.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I drove the 4.4 X5, the driving dynamics were incredible for such a tall, heavy vehicle. Add the beautiful BMW interior and the unbelievable seat travel and you have an irresistible deal. Well... almost. Only on the turns did I realize this was no BMW sedan. So I got the 545i for the same deal as the 4.4 X5.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    they buy barges like the LS and put up with foot wells that are too narrow, seats better for sleeping than driving, acceleration with a built-in "lag" which has to be upgraded time after time with computer software, a V8 which cannot break the 6 second 0-60mph barrier despite Lexus claims, grabby brakes

    The preceeding commentary is indigenous to Hp, and does not represent the views anyone else. Production models may perform differently. "Lag" indigenous to turbo models, which doesn't apply here. Test drive at dealer for details.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    There is nothing "wrong" with Lexus vehicles, nor did I intend to imply that BMWs are better vehicles, except maybe in that they are more fun-to-drive.

    Lexus has consistently proven that their cars/SUVs are more than "good enough".

    The only question is do they want to make a 335i-hunter, just for the fun of it?

    Lexus doesn't want drivers like me. With the Lexus' looks and power, and interior, it is hard to top as is, but there is still money on the table.

    "The Passionate Pursuit" ends with a stick and/or AWD option. They reconfigured VDIM, which I thought would be the hard part.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Holy Smokes, did I get misunderstood here or WHAT!!!

    It doesn't matter whether or not the Bimmers are better or not or need the stick or not. Some have said that it does matter, and I've been saying all along that the Lexus vehicles have been "good enough" in the eyes of those buying them to make the purchase. Of course "good enough" to those making the purchase is that it represents the "best" choice. Some have argued that without the stick shift, the IS can't compete with the 3-Series. I agree that it's not near the car, but I know that there are enough buyers out there that don't give a hoot about that.

    Some buyers of a Lexus IS, for example, KNOW their Lexus IS will not outperform a 3-Series, but its performance is "good enough" for them to justify the vehicle, because it has other attributes that they like more than the Bimmer. This is a no-brainer.

    The point being made is this:

    I have argued originally that Lexus will take an increasing slice of market share from BMW, as more and more consumers choose Lexus products than other alternatives, some being BMWs, as well as Mercedes and others. Ljflx agreed, as did some others, but he has left this forum.

    I have heard the argument that the IS is no match for the BMW because it has no stick. I have countered that the lack of a stick doesn't stop the IS from being perceived as "good enough" for many buyers who still prefer and purchase the IS even with an automatic and think it is a better car in their minds, whether or not is really is according to him, to me, or according to the concensus of most comps.

    My opinion is that the 3-series is in fact a better vehicle than the IS, but that doesn't matter. The Lexus IS will get enough folks to consider it as a viable alternative, and they will in fact purchase it. To them, it is "good enough" and doesn't have to win a race around the track . . . it has other redeeming qualities those folks prefer to make it their top pick.

    And this brings me full circle to my original argument . . . that Lexus will increasingly take a greater slice of market share from BMW, as well as Mercedes Benz and others. This argument is not limited to the IS, as it even applies to the LS, as I argued originally. It is no coincidence that the LS has a Bangled rear treatment.

    Anyone that doesn't yet see that Lexus has had BMW in their sights hasn't been paying attention, IMO.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    OK, I understand what you meant now, sorry for the misinterpretation. I was with you on the original premise (Lexus vs BMW) and somewhere along the line might have stated it even before you, though I don't really remember and don't really care; in any event as I have said before, Lexus management 1+ year ago stated that they were increasingly targeting BMW and a younger demographic generally. So I regard it as fact and not opinion that they are targeting BMW moreso that in the past. The only opinion is that they will succeed at least to some extent, and on that we are agreed.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I always thought you were one of those that was in agreement with me on this. I am glad that you have confirmed this now. The only thing that we have been waiting for is sales data to back it up, which can take a long time.

    But . . . it might be that we are finally starting to see actual data to support our shared view. While the market itself is a growing total number, the percentage of sales that credit to BMW and to Lexus, as well as the others will continue to tell us what is happening . . . and what is happening is that Lexus may be encroaching on BMW, not just in our theory, but in a measureable way.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Houdini,
    I hope my post 20706 helped to clarify.

    There are few car purchases made where the buyer thinks his car does everything "best". Overall, the buyer usually believes that his vehicle does enough things to satisfy his original intentions for the vehicle. But everything? NO!

    For example, it is very safe to say that most buyers of the Lexus LS already know that it will not outperform a BMW 7-series or a Mercedes S-Class.

    But it is darned certain that the performance is "good enough" for the LS buyer to enjoy the other reasons to make the purchase of the car . . . possibly the interior ergonomics, or the Consumer Reports reliability ratings, or perhaps that "soft cushy" feeling, or the perceived "value", or a combination of all of those things.

    To the BMW buyer, the interior ergonomics are obviously not the very best out there, but are "good enough", because the primary reasons for buying the car are the thrill of the driving dynamics, and styling, for example. They make the BMW the "best" choice for that particular buyer with those prioirties.

    Typically, IMO, there are some things about most of our cars that are "good enough" . . . we know they are not the very best, but we tolerate them because there are other features that have higher priorities for us.

    I hope that clarifies my use of the words "good enough" for you.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    "Targeting BMW" implies making cars designed to compete with BMWs in their realm, which I don't see happening.

    The only thing the IS shares with the 3 is a similar size.

    The GS and 5 couldn't be more different in countenance or comportment.

    The LS has a similar, but far superior, rear end, but is different in every other way. Lexus isn't making the LS a super sports sedan. The LS is a luxury car, first, and foremost. Not a BMW-type car.

    Taking market share from BMW, and targeting BMW are two different things. The New IS doesn't "target" the 3 any more than the IS300. If anything, it took a step back, giving up the inline six, and manual tranny, and many of the intangible driving dynamics inherent in the Altezza.

    Lexus is not, and will not make BMWs. If Lexus "targets" BMW, IMO, it will lose touch with it's own successful strategy. Lexus is doing it right, regardless of wheteher the IS is a true sports sedan or not.

    I vote not....yet. It has all the potential in the world.

    Here's hoping we get more of a good thing in 2008. ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    "Targeting BMW" implies making cars designed to compete with BMWs in their realm,

    Not exactly. In their "near" realm and "perceived" realm is often plenty, especially with a company like Lexus, who has so many other things going for it.

    Taking market share from BMW, and targeting BMW are two different things.

    Not necessarily. It depends upon the strategic goal . . . and with Lexus, it is likely about coming close enough to take sales away. The different cars we are talking about are in different "segments". Lexus wants to be a player in these different segments. Even the SC is an attempt at a "segment". Does it target the SL? It is NOTHING near as good as the SL, or is it in your opinion? And if it weren't so ugly, would it take more market share?

    Point is, that the IS doesn't have to be a clone to compete in the segment, and the IS and 3-series share a similar arena. The IS indeed has targeted the 3-series, in terms of segment AND sales, just as the LS has targeted the 7-Series and S-Class in terms of segment and sales.

    Lexus is not, and will not make BMWs.

    They don't need to. They are already doing what is necessary. Make vehicles in the different segments that are competitive enough to win over the hearts and/or minds of consumers in order to gain market share.

    TagMan
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    So then you agree with me?

    The GS "targets" the E-Class as much as it "targets" the 5-series.

    The IS "targets" the C-Class as much as the 3.

    The LS obviously "targets" the S-Class more than the 7, or at least I would hope so.

    DrFill
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Cars of the world are not neatly lined up single-file from the worst to the best . . . worst in what? and best in what? At every price point, there are competing design goals and target audience to be met, every vehicle is a compromise. If handling is the only thing people want, BMW would not exist or succeed at all . . . Go-carts, Lotus Exige, Corvette all offer better handling than BMW's at the same price points. Buyers typically make a compromise choice among reliability, comfort, safety, luxury, performance (which can be subdivided into handling and accelearation). "Best" and "good enough" are only really meaningful in specific categories. For example, some think BMW's are good enough for reliability . . . some think Lexus are good enough for handling . . . some think BMW is good enough for accelearation . . . some think BMW is good enough for luxury . . . some think BMW is good enough for comfort, etc. etc.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    SC is not targetted at SL at all . . . just look at the bench seat in the back. If one has to pick an MB model and call that what Lexus was aiming at, CL would have been the closest.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And as a side show to the three-tier segmentation, Lexus also approach the market with ES and RX, so that they do not have to make compromises to the platforms in order to make products like 525i possible. So yes, Lexus slices and dices the market place a little differently from the other makers . . . which was what making me all the more surprised to see that IS sales alone almost caught up with 3 series sales. Holy smokes!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Different strokes for different folks. In my mind I can't understand why anyone would settle for a BMW or Mercedes when they could have a Lexus. But I guess some feel that the BMW or Mercedes is good enough for them. Go figure.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    SC is not targetted at SL at all . . . just look at the bench seat in the back. If one has to pick an MB model and call that what Lexus was aiming at, CL would have been the closest.

    Not a chance.

    The SC's rear seats were included to classify the vehicle as a four-passenger, but there was never any intention for it to be truly functional, as it proves itself to be dysfunctional.

    The CL, while a little tight, is a fully-functional four-passenger vehicle.

    BIG difference.

    Most all the original comps to Mercedes, when the SC appeared on the scene, were regarding the SL.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Cars of the world are not neatly lined up single-file from the worst to the best

    Unless you are the editors of Car & Driver magazine! Or perhaps Consumer Reports editors to a small degree. Who is it that lists the "Ten Best Cars" every year?

    Seriously though, what's your point? Where could someone find such a line-up anyway? Unusual idea, to put it politely.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So yes, Lexus slices and dices the market place a little differently from the other makers . . . which was what making me all the more surprised to see that IS sales alone almost caught up with 3 series sales. Holy smokes!

    OMG, are you actually in agreement with me on something?

    I should probably notify the authorities, print this page and frame it. ;)

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The way I'd put it is that imo Lexus is targeting the BMW customer base. But most of their vehicles are simply not going to be as sporty as the equivalent BMW models, because that would, as you suggest, lose them some of their core audience. But they will/are move/moving the needle a bit more toward the "sport" end of the spectrum, while still remaining more "luxurious" than BMW.

    The LF-A will be an exception.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Obviously more people in the U.S.A want luxury over sport, that is what makes Lexus soo successful. If handling, performance, steering feel, & a stiff ride were soo important to MOST luxury car buyers like some people make it seem on here, than BMW's would be the ONLY luxury car that would be alive and well in the US. But Lexus is the king honcho in the US because they build the attributes into the car that Americans MOST want which is Luxury FIRST. And who would have thought about this....LUXURY selling in the greatest numbers in the LUXURY segment. duh.

    On the topic of IS sales. The IS hasn't even hit full stride yet as 2008 should supposedly bring at least a IS coupe and possibly a convertible.

    Also, I read a article on Wards recently that Lexus is mulling a crossover based on the IS series to take on the X3 and upcoming MB C-class based GLK.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I'd argue that Lexus is bending more towards the US media's desire to have Lexus show more "Passion", and indeed live up to their new slogan, than to deal with anything BMW is doing, or "targeting".

    That's always been the knock, right? That they are great cars, just kinda boring?

    My thought is, let your hair down with one car, the IS. If you want to be more measured with the rest, that's fine.

    The $35k sports sedan class is not for the timid.

    Lexus is always calculated and measured. I was hoping the IS would be the Maverick. Guess I was wrong.

    A very fast sheep in wolf's clothing.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Also, I read a article on Wards recently that Lexus is mulling a crossover based on the IS series to take on the X3 and upcoming MB C-class based GLK.

    I must've missed a meeting on the demand for X3/RDX class. I've seen an X3 about once every other month!

    Just because a new niche is formed, doesn't mean Lexus has to jump through that hoop. I vote no.

    Plus, this would fly in the face of Lexus' hesitance with the MT 350, due to lack of demand. :confuse:

    Lexus shouldn't be focused on the down-market, even doh the RX leaves room for such a vehicle. And the redesigned RX will offer 3rd-row seating.

    If they wanna make a new vehicle, make a HPX/FX SUV!

    DrFill
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    You are exactly right. To each his/her own. If this were a simple 1 through N ranking, it would be easy, but it is not. We all have our druthers re styling, handling, luxury, etc. Each car combines various parts of those (LPS, etc) and we make our choices. Cars are very emotional. What lights my fire may be blah to someone else and vice versa. This is not rocket science and is why lots of car companies remain in business and why people will argue endlessly on message boards like this one!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The way I'd put it is that imo Lexus is targeting the BMW customer base. But most of their vehicles are simply not going to be as sporty as the equivalent BMW models, because that would, as you suggest, lose them some of their core audience.

    We're close here, but the BMW customer "base" as you put it, might not be the best target for Lexus.

    This group consists of the BMW loyalists and die-hards. So, I do not think Lexus is aiming directly at them.

    Lexus is more likely aiming at the segment's fringe . . . at least for now, given Lexus's performance limitations. That is where Lexus can make better headway and gain ground from BMW.

    And you are right about Lexus moving carefully here as to not lose its own core customers, who don't necessarily want things all too different.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Most all the original comps to Mercedes, when the SC appeared on the scene, were regarding the SL.

    True, but the SC is totally out of the SL's league. I think its actually much closer to a CLK550, although I'm not sure there have been any comparison tests between the two.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I must've missed a meeting on the demand for X3/RDX class. I've seen an X3 about once every other month!

    Just because a new niche is formed, doesn't mean Lexus has to jump through that hoop. I vote no.

    How many SC430s or LX470s does Lexus sell a month? Should they just not do those vehicles as well? There's no way to tell how big the compact lux-ute market will get, as its only existed for a few years, and its currently a two car class. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Acura, and Volvo seem to think there are sales to be made though, and it would make sense for Lexus to jump in as well.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There's no way to tell how big the compact lux-ute market will get, as its only existed for a few years, and its currently a two car class. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Acura, and Volvo seem to think there are sales to be made though, and it would make sense for Lexus to jump in as well.

    Oh yeah, you are right that it makes sense for Lexus as well as the others. This segment will grow. Keep a watch out for the Land Rover LR2 (Spring '07) and the Mercedes MLK (at least a year away).

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Actually we are essentially in agreement. The BMW customer base is a spectrum of people and their wants/needs/desires. Some are easier pickings for Lexus than others. I never meant to suggest that Lexus could possibly succeed in getting all of the BMW customer base.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Apples and oranges, as the Sc and LX are much more expensive, and were much more popular in their prime.

    I maintain Lexus shouldn't look to increase the marque's volume, but work on the high-end of each market. A Merc GL competitor would be good.

    DrFill
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Apples and oranges, as the Sc and LX are much more expensive, and were much more popular in their prime.

    I maintain Lexus shouldn't look to increase the marque's volume, but work on the high-end of each market. A Merc GL competitor would be good.

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    In my mind I can't understand why anyone would settle for a BMW or Mercedes when they could have a Lexus.

    This statement is at the fundamental nature of all debates around here. You see, the hardcore BMW buyer and hardcore Lexus buyer are like different species. A cat can’t mate with a bird. Yet we continue to wonder why and argue which one is better. Amazing.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Houdini posted: In my mind I can't understand why anyone would settle for a BMW or Mercedes when they could have a Lexus.

    D-Man's reply: This statement is at the fundamental nature of all debates around here.

    Oh yeah. It says a lot. The admission that there is a lack of "understanding" shows why the argument never ends. And the perspective that someone would "settle" for a BMW or Mercedes instead of a Lexus is proof of an extreme bias.

    I must admit that I strongly prefer the European vehicles in the HELM segment, as well as the sports car segment, but I don't find it impossible to understand why some folks would choose a Lexus.

    If we listen to them, it's easy enough. Essentially Lexus buyers have clearly told us that they prefer the emotional security of favorable reliability statistics, the "value" that they perceive in the Lexus vehicles, the interior ergonomics, and the soft, quiet, cushy type of drive. Of course there are other reasons, but I'm just naming the typical ones.

    I believe that European car fans, at least I will speak for myself here, prefer a more adrenaline-stimulating vehicle. This primarily comes from more dramatic and/or classic styling and/or driving dynamics that offer a more interactive, responsive, and road-connected experience, as well as an elevated interest and appreciation for engine/drivetrain engineering.

    A Eurocar fan is willing to take a larger risk with regards to statistical reliability to get those important attributes. A Lexus buyer plays it safe with regards to reliability, hence one of the very reasons to be a Lexus buyer.

    Two very different perspectives indeed.

    I've gotta give Lexusguy credit for owning a Jaguar AND a Lexus.
    Now there's a guy with an open mind . . . and an open wallet. ;)

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    "10 Best Cars" every year is compiled to promote car sales. . . in case anyone is missing the point, only new models, not carry-overs, qualify some of those titles (e.g. "car of the year" etc.) And it goes without saying that these rankings reflect the subjective judgement of the authors, going by MSRP, or pretend subjective judgements for the sake of magazine and ads sales . . . as their own cars are often not any of those "Best Cars" at all.

    If you agree with me that the competing cars have different fortes that appeal to consumers with slightly different tastes (to put it mildly), it's quite a departure from your earlier post implications that buyers of Lexus are settling for the cars of their choice even though they know the Euro's offer better. They are not. Different people judge what's best quite differently. For example, if I were to lease a BMW or MB, it would be entirely due to the lease offers and included maintenance making the Euros less expensive, even though I know, in my judgement, the Lexus entries are better cars, because I highly value hassle-free car ownership.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And the perspective that someone would "settle" for a BMW or Mercedes instead of a Lexus is proof of an extreme bias.

    Actually, no. I can understand some may "settle" for a BMW/MB instead of a Lexus . . . and conversely I can understand that some may "settle" for a Lexus instead of BMW/MB. On the other hand, the inability to see the opposing point of view having its merits, from a different perspective, is the very definition of extreme bias.

    I can understand some may like a more adrenaline-stimuted vehicle. I was like that when I was younger (gosh I sound old, for a 30+ old :-) It should be noted however, it's an over generalization to call that "Euro". The old joke about Rolls-Royce and the pin talked about the vehicle being so quiet as to hear the sound of pin drop (and RR's penchant to find the pin :-) not the adrenaline rush of being pricked by a pin ;-) We are in the High End Luxury arena after all . . . and RR was/is the grand daddy of this segment, even before S, 7 and LS made HELM affordable to the barely well-off.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Apples and oranges, as the Sc and LX are much more expensive, and were much more popular in their prime.

    I dont know about that. The SC did better back in '02 and '03 yes, but it was never any threat to the RX or ES in terms of sales. I don't think the LX has ever been a big seller, going all the way back to the LX450. The original SC was very much a niche vehicle, selling at most a few hundred cars a month.

    If a luxury version of the RAV4 can bring more sales to the brand, why not do it? Why just hand the market to the competition? The current RX350 ranges from around $38K-46K. The '09 version will probably be something like $40-50K. That creates room for a smaller, lux ute priced in the low to mid 30s.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've gotta give Lexusguy credit for owning a Jaguar AND a Lexus.
    Now there's a guy with an open mind . . . and an open wallet.

    I don't think my situation is that uncommon. LS430 owners that are able to afford a second car will want something fun, and the SC430 is not that. It doesn't have to be a SL, XKR or 911, it could be something as simple as a Miata.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    They are totally aware that BMW's are far superior in driving dynamics than Lexus vehicles.

    IS350 has better driving dynamics than the overwhelming majority of BMW's sold in this country/world. The range of products of the two brands overlap so much in terms of driving dynamics, the over-generalizng statement was quite uncalled for. Besides, if driving dynamics were the only thing that mattered, we would not be in the HELM forum (3 series and IS are far better in terms of driving dynamics), we would not even be talking about either BMW or Lexus (Lotus and Corvette are far better than both BMW and Lexus), and BMW would not have designed the E90 around the run-flats (no spare well etc. to improve packaging).

    As to the vitriole directed at self-parking, the same can be said of laser cruiser control (or even cruise control), NAV system, automatic transmission (all HELM's are now automatics), heating/cooling seats, and even a good stereo . . . none of them is necessary, but part and parcel of what makes a luxury car (i.e. a car that allows us to indulge ourselves, or just plain being lazy for a moment :-)
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I think when choosing between makes and types of cars that it's a total package comparison. I know many people who would have stayed with MB if they didn't have quality issues with the last gen S Class. It wasn't a matter that they preferred the softer ride of the Lexus or the more "user friendly" electronics but simply a matter of getting fed up with the service issues. Truth be told, I think some who drive the LS still prefer the styling and diving dynamics of the Euros. The inconveniences just outweighed the pluses. Then there is the price issue. If it cost an average of 300-400 per month more to lease an S Class, that gets factored in as well. So I believe it's a question of what people are willing to sacrifice and trade off. The fact that the LS is the best selling lux car in the US does not make it the best. It's just the best overall choice for the lion's share of those who have been voting with their wallets. If the S Class shows itself to be reliable and if Lexus leases creep within 100-200 per month, I believe that it could be a new ball game. My bet is that Lexus will soon be very aggressive on price and offer lease support after the initial excitement calms down. They still need a price gap and I believe that they are properly positioned as "Mass Luxury" vs "true luxury". That is where the volume is.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I don't think my situation is that uncommon.

    No, not all that uncommon, really. What does seem uncommon, however, on this forum is for a Lexus fan to understand the posts of a Eurocar fan. It seems there is always a Lexus fan that misunderstands the post of a Eurocar fan, and as houdini admitted, it is because they think we have "settled" for a BMW or Mercedes, or other Eurocar, and they don't understand why we don't all just automatically prefer a Lexus.

    On the other hand, I have posted for a very long time the redeeming attributes of a Lexus, and I have acknowledged its virtues and given credit where it is due. I have been fair and moderate for the most part, while still maintaining my personal preferences.

    Cars that reflect my personal preferences don't automatically become the best, but when you read the posts of houdini and brightness, they continue to post that the Lexus is the "best". Best for them, perhaps, but not for me and millions of folks around the globe that don't want a Lexus right now.

    If Lexus made an SUV that didn't have those Mickey Mouse flip-flop third-row seats and instead had fold-flats, I would already have purchased one for my wife. I've posted that many times before. Not because it is reliable, but because it is a reasonable size that seats seven passengers and has enough nice features and adequate power and handling as well as 4-wheel drive. It is a good choice in the segment, but the rear seats kill it.

    But for a HELM, I would not touch a Lexus with a ten foot pole, and that is just my preference. Even though it is a dependable vehicle, I personally do not like the styling. Quite frankly, I hate the styling. I think a Mercedes Benz or Jaguar XJ or BMW or Masserati or Audi are infinitly more appealing to me in the HELM segment. I am willing to risk an extra trip to the repair shop to get what I like.

    If I like the way it looks, I want it. If I like the way it drives, I want it. If it parks itself or has the best stereo or the softest seat or has a reputation for reliability I find no excitement in any of that whatsoever.

    But, I do understand that there can be plenty of folks that are turned on by lots of red dots in Consumer Reports magazine. But I'm not one of them.

    To each his own, as was recently posted. I agree with that, and always have.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    houdini posted:
    that he "can't understand why anyone would settle for a BMW or Mercedes when they could have a Lexus".

    brightness posted:
    the inability to see the opposing point of view having its merits, from a different perspective, is the very definition of extreme bias.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    A guy on another thread owns an Acura TL and a Porsche 911.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Come now. The phrase, "Why anyone would settle for a BMW..." is deliberately provocative. I don't believe he really meant it. Just a retaliatory post from being wounded by someone like me.

    I'm sure if someone dumped any BMW in front of his door, you would never hear from him again. He would be having such a blast driving it.
    Take the post within the framework that produced it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That is my good friend Habitat1.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The old joke used to be that BMW's product planning was carried out at Mercedes-Benz's headquarters. Meaning that whatever Mercedes did BMW had to follow. Now it goes something like MB's and BMW's product planning is carried out at each others headquarters. What one does the other must follow. Now you have Audi which is trying to catch up to both of them by entering every niche that BMW/MB play in plus one more, the R8.

    BMW comes out with the first single controller (idrive) and Mercedes and Audi rush to come up with something similar or better by most accounts. BMW does the Z3, Mercedes does the SLK. Mercedes does the ML, BMW does the X5. Mercedes does the CLS and both Audi and BMW are both rumored to have something on the drawing board. BMW still desires something to compete against the SL. There are many examples of this going on with the German 3, really quite hilarious IMO. Mercedes did manage to win the hp war quite easily though, whatever that is worth.

    There is no way in hell MB and Audi are going to let the X3 be the only mini-me luxury ute. The only niche in which BMW and Audi might not follow is the all-purpose R-Class for obvious reasons.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very true. I will add that, if not for the R-class' abject failure in the market place, BMW and Audi probably would have followed with their own minivans.

    IMHO, it's all a sign of over-ripeness of the industry. The domestics started doing that back in the 60's . . . everything GM started, Ford and Chrysler were sure to follow . . . and vice versa. Japanese started doing that in the late 80's and early 90's. It will take some industry down turn for the participants to realize that all the trash talk about head-to-head competition, while good for selling the rags, is bad for the carmakers' business :-) Product uniqueness is crucial to profitability.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. He has been posting on the MDX thread.
    A very knowledgeable and helpful poster.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "IS350 has better driving dynamics....than the majority of BMW's"

    You know, there comes a point when being overly provocative turns into absurdity and foolishness.
    You have reached that plateau.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I thought that point was reached with the following statement:

    "They are totally aware that BMW's are far superior in driving dynamics than Lexus vehicles. "

    First of all, sub-clause after "that" is factually untrue as illustrated previously; then, that "they are totally aware" of the same falsehood is even more of a stretch. I thought you were trying to be provocative . . . my apologies if that's not the case. In all honesty though, the two brands do have quite an overlap on the spectrum of driving dynamics . . . as yourself clearly observed earlier, X5 is not exactly a great handler compared to low riding cars, regardless what BMW would like everyone to believe. It's just a matter of physics.
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