Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1…388389391393394…463

Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Let's not be silly. An SUV is what it is. BMW cannot modify physical laws.

    Let's talk sedans. Every BMW sedan can run rings around any Lexus sedan. This is so well understood that it might as well be a physical law.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'm not entirely convinced that 750i can run rings around IS350 (for the same reason that 750i and 760i can not even run rings around 545i), or even for that matter 550i could. 325i obviously can not. 330i is slower, so it can not. We are still waiting on the verdict on 335i vs. IS350.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A guy on another thread owns an Acura TL and a Porsche 911.

    Nice cars, although I'm not crazy about the TL. The interior styling is kind of all over the place, and the turning circle is awful. That, and I've never liked its stock 17" wheels, I think they're ugly.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Hey, I can top that with an LX470, Acura RL and a 350Z! Hmmm...no German cars. Imagine that!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    We're all at a party but none of us know each other as we do in these forums. Would we criticize each others' preferences? No. If someone told me he had a Lexus I would say nice, then proceed to tell him all of the desirable attributes and commend him for his choice.

    So there. And on that note I think we need a group hug.

    ;-)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good one designman.

    Tag, you are one of the reasons I enjoy this forum. I just like to pull your chain now and then and I know you enjoy doing the same to me. From my perspective it is all good fun and I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. Now, how about that hug? :blush:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I was going to ask him why he has 2 vehicles that seem to be polar opposites in the same garage. Then I got tangled up in the latest "us vs them" wars here.

    Yes. Something is wrong when the Accord has a shorter turning circle than the "sportier" TL. I sat in the TL at the auto show. Did not care for the look of the black leather or the rest of the interior. Not too roomy either. However, the TL will get no complaints from me on the quality of its paint, sheetmetal, or exterior design.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Walking away."

    Funny how people see things differently:

    I'm thinking of ol' Steve who did an exhaustive, comprehensive study of HELM posters (which I'm sure earned him a sociology doctorate from some matchbook university) and found that with all the hours Tag spent at posting here over the last year, he had absolutely no time to eat, sleep, hold a job, see his wife and kids and worst of all, drive his cars! :surprise:
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I checked the a 8 out today with the legroom issue...My son has fairly long legs, and I noticed they almost touched the dashboard...I suggested he put the seat back , and it already was back...That is the second person I noticed so you are absolutely right ...The drives seat may go back further than the passenger seat, so I`l check that out...The bmw will be back tomorrow--but as I remember it the passenger seat went back plent far enough...I`l check that out also...Remember my 8 is the short version, so i imagine the long version would have more leg room...On a further note the a8 is a little small overall although for me it is fine as I am six feet and rarely have people in the car....I`m with you Tag....Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for your kind support Tony. I wish Audi and many other vehicles weren't "disconnected" at the auto show. I may have been able to find a decent seat adjustment. Why let us sit in a vehicle if it doesn't "fit?" It sure doesn't make for a positive impression.

    As to the 545 legroom, it is slightly more generous than the 3 Series, which means I could use a bit more. However, the left footwell is a perfect size and my right leg does not bump into the console. The only BMW that I find has adequate legroom is the X5.

    It took me a long time to get the 545 driver's seat correct for me. Thank goodness for memory settings. When I take the car in for its first oil change, I just know the seat will be totally out of position. Why is it that the guy who changes the oil is always 4'10"?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Why is it that the guy who changes the oil is always 4'10"?

    And he leaves the radio set to a freaky music station no one else even knew existed.

    TM
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Try not to get distracted. ;-)

    Mercedes with clear wheels
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    However, the TL will get no complaints from me on the quality of its paint, sheetmetal, or exterior design.

    They did do a nice job on the exterior. Acuras are usually hit-and-miss, but the TL came out nicely, other than a somewhat bland rear end, which is a typical Honda design fault.

    I actually like the Accord's interior better. In past years the inside of the TL was just an Accord with some poor quality fake wood thrown around. This time the fake wood (or fake carbon fibre) is still poor quality, there's just a lot of metallic trim added with no real rhyme or reason to try and give it some "zazz". I think Acura needs to lock their interior guys in a few Audis. Even the Passat looks a lot better than the TL on the inside.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That's uncanny. I meant to add that but left it out.
    Always some strange music I've never heard of.
    Maybe its the same guy.
    We post 24/7. He repairs 24/7.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Sorry, D-man . . . I got distracted, over and over again. But I did hear the guy say that you should take the wheels off every three weeks to clean the backside. Is that a job we should all look forward to?

    Cool looking though.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The Passat has a nice upscale interior. I found the driver's seat comfortable. Unfortunately, its V6 price is getting a little upscale too: close to $40k MSRP loaded, although I'm sure there's plenty of room for negotiation. I wouldn't pay more than $30k, loaded. It is still after all, a VW.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I like the flame job on the bike. Would like to see it applied to the Mercedes. My tastes are somewhat conservative with cars but I do appreciate street cars that can bring home the flambuoyant applications. And it's very hard to find good flames. They're usually so tacky.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    There are strong rumors that Audi is going to release something similar as the R-Class in the scope of the Roadjet Concept previewed earlier this year. It will be quite large and sit high as the R-Class. However, no official word or sightings of such a vehicle.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770

    I dont know about that. The SC did better back in '02 and '03 yes, but it was never any threat to the RX or ES in terms of sales. I don't think the LX has ever been a big seller, going all the way back to the LX450. The original SC was very much a niche vehicle, selling at most a few hundred cars a month.

    If a luxury version of the RAV4 can bring more sales to the brand, why not do it? Why just hand the market to the competition? The current RX350 ranges from around $38K-46K. The '09 version will probably be something like $40-50K. That creates room for a smaller, lux ute priced in the low to mid 30s.

    Who wuss comparing the Sc to the RX/ES? The SC is a $60k convertible! The LX sold around 10k a year, 12k at the most. The SC peaked at 17k (Lexus wanted to sell 10k).

    The Original SC sold in the 15k-25k range, so a few hundred a month is belittling it's legacy quite a bit.

    Regarding an X3-type for Lexus, that's probably why lexus is moving the RX upmarket, to field a new entry SUV.

    Personally, I think that's a mistake, and Lexus should build a bigger brother to the RX, not blow up the RX. UNLESS they intend to do what they did with the LS, and continue to make a standard version, with similar price and market, and then an extended version, for the higher market.

    I don't think that's in the plans, but I would do just that, if they won't make a HPX-type big brother.

    Keep the RX350 under $40k, and then make a Super RX460 for $50-60k.

    Maybe they can "Mini-me" the RX? Just make a smaller RX.

    The Lexus lineup should revolve around cornerstones like the RX. The RX couldn't be more perfect in targeting the lux-ute market. I wouldn't do any high-wire acts with it.

    DrFill
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The X3 isn't selling all that well because of it's stiff ride and it's even stiffer price, especially the former.

    Hey, from these boards I thought the entire population of car buyers wanted a stiff ride! Yet, the X3 is a perfect example of handling & road feel meaning squat to car buyers.

    Lexus already has a $30K IS, so why not have a $30K to $40K CUV? The RDX is lame, styling wise and all. a CR-V based $30K CUV is simply keeping Acura downmarket. A IS based CUV would be a good move. Ward's said the upcoming supposed "JX" Lexus line is probably the IS based CUV.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Original SC sold in the 15k-25k range, so a few hundred a month is belittling it's legacy quite a bit.

    Not for long. By its '97 reskin, sales were less than half of that. By the end, it struggled to break 2,000 sales a year for the V6 and V8 combined.

    As far as I know, Lexus is building a bigger brother to the RX. The '09 RX is supposed to grow a few inches, just as the RX330 did over the RX300. It won't get seven seats. The HPX name was later changed to "Lexus future vehicle-X". When a concept gets the "LF" tag, it means its going to happen, supposedly with the JX tag for 2008. It may or may not kill off the GX470.

    Lexus originally panned the idea of a mini-ute until they saw that everybody else was jumping in the market, and have just recently changed their minds about doing one. It probably wont show until 2010 at the earliest.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Of course I meant sales in it's prime, not after it was allowed to wither and die.

    The RX is pretty big as is. If they make it bigger, than make something even bigger over it, it would have to compete with the Merc GL for Large Crossover supremacy.

    It would appear, with the success of the GL, and the moves to smaller lux-utes, Lexus will bracket the RX at $30k with one, and at $55k with one.

    The current GX, which is still very solid in sales, is inappropriate for Lexus' long term, crossover-rich strategy. Trucks like that are fading away.

    I'm surprised a Large Crossover from Lexus isn't here by now! A Land Cruiser-remake at $65k in 2008 seems passe to me at this point.

    The HPX would be a SRX/FX competitor. But Lexus needs something to compete with Escalade and GL. Bigger than the Land Cruiser.

    If Lexus can infuse the IS' style into a SUV, maybe that would work. :blush:

    I guess if I were making a plan for Lexus' SUV Division: 2010, it would be:

    1. Make a Sporty SUV with IS styling for $32k-40k
    2. Have the RX at $40-50k, with 3rd-row seating in a $4-5k package.
    3. Make a SRX/FX-type SUV for $45k-$60k
    4. A GL/Range Rover level SUV for $65k+

    If they use the Land Cruiser platform for an LX, it should be stretched to at least 195".

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You guys have way too much time on your hands on Saturdays!

    I have actually forgotten where I stand on the Lexus/BMW issue!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    1. Make a Sporty SUV with IS styling for $32k-40k
    2. Have the RX at $40-50k, with 3rd-row seating in a $4-5k package.
    3. Make a SRX/FX-type SUV for $45k-$60k
    4. A GL/Range Rover level SUV for $65k+

    Yeah the GX and LX seem like yestertech when compared to new trucks like the Q7 and GL. Obviously they're still around just because its a very short trip to pick up already developed platforms and drivetrains. The Escalade though is just a mainstream body-on-frame truck with a bunch of glitz thrown around though, its no better than the GX or LX in that regard. At least they don't have column shifters and segmented, tilt-only steering wheels. That last part is just pathetic.

    I don't see how the LF-X could compete with the SRX and FX, as the RX already competes in that space, along with the ML, X5, etc. The '09 version will most likely be RX350\RX450h, with a price range of $40-55K. The RX really doesn't need a V8, as Lexus has been able to keep the weight down hundreds of pounds below the competition, so its fast enough, especially for the typical RX buyer.

    Having the LF-X be like the IS to the RX's ES doesn't make much sense to me, I just don't think there's a lot of demand for a sporty midsize crossover from Lexus. I would make the LF-X into the Q7, GL competitor.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If I have to guess, a low-end Lexus SUV entry would be based on the new RAV4. The V6 engine performance is great for that class (overkill, IMHO, for where RAV4's original market is; I was actually quite surprised that it's marketted as a Toyota not a Lexus, the V6 version anyway). It would also make for quick product development before the market segment is saturated. The problem is then, where would the RX go? It whould have to be bigger, perhaps with 3 rows? Just my guess. In any case, it does seem to me that Toyota/Lexus messed up their compact SUV offerings with the RAV4 on steroids . . . unless Toyota/Lexus is serious about moving the Toyota brand up-market . . . but having a V6 RAV4 compete head-to-head against X3 is a bit too much to ask of the brand . . . some day perhaps, but not there yet. A Lexus branded version running on practically same mechanicals would on the other hand do quite well. (Of course, having a RAV4 with a fabulous engine selling at Toyota price without Lexus markup is a great deal for consumers :-)
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Further checked out the seat situation, and found the passenger seat does not slide as far back as the driver`s, by about two inches--which is alot--Although the a8 short is ok for me, and there is more than enough legroom for pretty much any driver(not Shacque?), if I were to suggest a car for anybody I would surely point out that drawback ..Thinking about any driver that is tall, the suv with it`s chair sort of seat, would be more comfortable....I guess that is why they are so popular anyway...Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    n any case, it does seem to me that Toyota/Lexus messed up their compact SUV offerings with the RAV4 on steroids . . . unless Toyota/Lexus is serious about moving the Toyota brand up-market . . . but having a V6 RAV4 compete head-to-head against X3 is a bit too much to ask of the brand . . . some day perhaps, but not there yet.

    Er.. the RAV4 V6 really doesn't compete with the X3. A RAV4 Limited V6 AWD starts at $26K, and tops at $30K. The X3 3.0i starts at $38K, and as with any BMW it can go way up from there. Toyota used the 3.5L V6 because they clearly wanted to get out of the CR-V, Forester market.

    While the recently retired 245hp 3.0L V6 from the GS300 would've been perflectly fine in a RAV4 role, and in past years Toyota probably would've gone that route, the "new" power-obsessed Toyota wanted to put the smack down on the competition like the Equinox and Vue V6s, CX-7 turbo, etc., and the big 3.5 does just that.

    Its not as if the lines between Toyota and Lexus haven't been somewhat gray before. The Camry could've gotten the 3.0 as well, but they gave it the 3.5 with just four less horses than the ES350. Since the RAV4 V6 tops at $30K, there's plenty of room in the $33-40K space for a new Lexus mini-ute based on the RAV4. I haven't heard anything about using the IS platform in that role.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    If I wanted a small SUV I would certainly look at the X3, the Rav V6 and the small Acura. So in that sense I would say that they do compete. What other competition could the X3 have? Remember that Toyota has a big labor cost advantage over BMW so the content of the two is not that different.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If I wanted a small SUV I would certainly look at the X3, the Rav V6 and the small Acura. So in that sense I would say that they do compete.

    For now, mostly what they have in common is their size. The X3 is more of the lux-ute and can be optioned WAY above the RAV4 and even the RDX.

    What other competition could the X3 have?

    I could see why you would ask that. It is because the REAL competition for the X3 isn't even out yet. The small luxury SUV segment is just getting warmed up out of the gate.

    Soon you should expect to see a very cool brand new LR2 from Land Rover by May of '07, and a brand new MLK from Mercedes in about a year or so. Then the X3 will have some nice company in its own playing field.

    image

    image

    :D

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hey, Pat . . . Just for you . . .

    Try this Mercedes SL600 "Diamond" Edition . . . just your style, baby. ;)

    image

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for the follow-up Tony.

    I have found that quite a few manufacturers do not give the same amount of respect to the front passenger as the driver. Sometimes the driver gets lumbar support and the passenger doesn't. Frequently, the driver's seat can be adjusted in more ways than the front passenger seat. Therefore it does not surprise me that you reported the seat travel of the front passenger seat is a few inches less than the driver's seat in your A8.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Not even the Brady Bunch can stop Peyton Manning and the Colts. Talk about turnovers making a difference.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    MSRP is not the only way people buy cars (understatement of the day :-) In fact, hardly anyone pays MSRP nowadays. The lease payment of around $300/mo or less for X3 nowadays makes the vehicle very much in the low-$30k or even sub-$30k range in reality regardless what the MSRP says.

    You might be right that Lexus might just be able to squeeze out another $3-5k by attaching the Lexus marque to the RAV4 . . . does have to wonder though if such a strategy would dilute brand like what Ford did to Mercury. 10-15% price differntiation is just not enough to differentiate brands. I certainly agree that it's far more likely that an entry Lexus based on the RAV4 than based on IS. If nothing else, the RAV platform and upper works are all already there. IS/GS platform is probably also more expensive to manufacturer. That being said, the existence of the V6 RAV4 at $30k does make it somewhat problematic for brand management, unless Toyota/Lexus wants the Toyota brand to move upmarket too, in which case a Lexus version of RAV4 should not be attempted at all.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You guys have way too much time on your hands on Saturdays!

    I have actually forgotten where I stand on the Lexus/BMW issue!

    But if someone dissed Mercedes and you were buried in an avalanche on a Mt. Everest expedition, you'd manage to post a response in no time.

    :P
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The difference in option lists between X3 and Rav4 comes down to:

    1. Park distance control
    2. Xenon light
    3. Servotronic steering (which as we know real enthusiasts hate)
    4. Rear entertainment system (which RAV4 has but X3 does not; not a big deal for drivers either, just one of the things that stand out in the option list).

    The two vehicles are about the same size, with RAV having more power and torque, and 350lbs less weight (nearly double the difference between 3 series and 5 series) . . . so which one having better driving dynamics should be quite obvious.

    I do agree that at this point in time, the BMW brand can sell a car a couple grand more than the Toyota brand can even if they are selling the same exact car. The heavy discounting and incentives that BMW is offering though does reflect the market reality that the difference is actually much much smaller than the respective MSRP's are suggesting.

    BTW, at first glance, I thought that Land Rover was a Ford. Ourch! ;-) They gotta change that oval marque or do something about making it looking less like the blue oval.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    How much is that "paint" option? and does it come with flame throwing anti-theft system? ;-)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    B04, did you mean to imply that the Rav4 has better driving dynamics than the X3, due to lighter weight, and more horsepower? Just curious
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Soon you should expect to see a very cool brand new LR2 from Land Rover by May of '07, and a brand new MLK from Mercedes in about a year or so. Then the X3 will have some nice company in its own playing field.

    There's also the Volvo XC50, Audi Q3, and probably a Saab 9-6X based on the next generation Saturn Vue and its Opel twin.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The difference in option lists between X3 and Rav4 comes down to:

    The difference between a mainstream car and a luxury car come down to more than xenon lights and a few gadgets. Just look at the cars, not the option sheets. I just don't think both cars will appeal to the same person. The Toyota competes with other $25-30K utes, The CX-7, Vue, Murano, Edge, etc. Its just not in the same class as the BMW. BMW basically invented the X3's class, and just as it took a few years for everybody else to catch up with the ML320 and the RX300, its going to take a few years for everybody eles to catch up with the X3.

    image
    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The difference between a mainstream car and a luxury car come down to more than xenon lights and a few gadgets. Just look at the cars, not the option sheets.

    There's also the Volvo XC50, Audi Q3, and probably a Saab 9-6X based on the next generation Saturn Vue and its Opel twin.

    Thanks for the good additions, lexusguy. As I said, this segment is just warming up and is just now getting out of the gate. Adding those models and others to the BMW X3, Land Rover LR2, and Mercedes MLK will provide some good competitive choices. Ultimately, it should be a hot segment, IMO.

    And, BTW, I agree with you that the RAV4 is not in the same league as the X3.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Was it just me, or was Brightness04 implying that the Rav has better driving dynamics than an X3 due to more horsepower, and less weight? I'm dying for an answer to this btw.
    Yeah, the Rav4 is not on the same zip code as the bimmer. The segment is heating up to be sure. I think the Q5 is going to be a winner.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Look at the cars indeed. Both interiors are quite spartan (btw, is that even the RAV4 limited?). Before the most recent refresh, the X3 exterior, with that black bumper, looked even lower class than the RAV4. IMHO, RAV4 and CRV started the class back in 1996-7, called compact SUV's. BMW just decided to join the game with X3 in the last couple years. The original X3 was about as stripped bare as it can be . . . a sea of hard plastic, with a black bumper to boot.

    BTW, the option lists were brought up because Tag stated that X3 is higher class because it can be optioned much higher.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The 2007 X3 with what used to be marketted as the Si engine for sedans and roadsters may have improved a bit, the original X3 2.5 and 3.0 (184hp and 215hp vs. the 255hp Si engine in 2007) were snails compared to the RAV4 V6 with 265hp and weighs 350lbs less.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,725
    I was at the game last night, I still have a headache... Manning/Harrison/Wayne just made some fabulous plays where it was as if each member of "The Brady Bunch" were carrying guns and at the worst possible moment would proceed to shoot themselves in the foot... :cry: And that "Taunting" call on Troy Brown??????????? :mad: Not to mention the two "gifts" Adam Vinatieri gave to us! The best team playing last night won, hopefully when next the Colts and Pats meet, the truly best team will win! If only Brady had a Marvin or Reggie...

    Just saw a new Bentley Continental coming back from lunch, surely a HELM...(on topic now!)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag stated that X3 is higher class because it can be optioned much higher.

    That is a reason, but not the ONLY reason. The X3 is in a higher class, and the rest of us see that. You can agree or disagree, but don't try to hammer that you are right. There is no right or wrong here, only opinions. Mine is that the X3 is in a small luxury suv segment, joined by other vehicles that were mentioned by lexusguy and myself. IMO, this segment does not include the RAV4.

    Now that's all I'm posting on this, because I'm signing out and will return later with posts about HELMS. I don't mind going off-topic a little, but I certainly don't want to dwell on it.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    BMW basically invented the X3's class, and just as it took a few years for everybody else to catch up with the ML320 and the RX300, its going to take a few years for everybody eles to catch up with the X3.

    ? The ML and RX don't compete with the X3. I take you meant the X5's class? Even though the ML was the one that invented the X5/RX/MDX class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Likley so, it is part of the MBFC rules (sec 1.article 1).

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The 2007 X3 with what used to be marketted as the Si engine for sedans and roadsters may have improved a bit, the original X3 2.5 and 3.0 (184hp and 215hp vs. the 255hp Si engine in 2007) were snails compared to the RAV4 V6 with 265hp and weighs 350lbs less.

    The Shelby Mustang has an enormous amount of horsepower. That doesn't make it a luxury car. The Camry V6 has more power and can outrun a 525i. Does that mean the Camry and 5 series are competitors?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I take you meant the X5's class? Even though the ML was the one that invented the X5/RX/MDX class.

    Thats exactly what I was saying, I didn't think it was unclear. I wasn't trying to say that the X3 competes with the ML and RX. I was saying that the X3 and RDX two car class situation right now is very similar to the ML, RX situation in the late '90s, when the mid-lux SUV segment was a two car class. Now there are loads of mid-lux SUVs. The same thing will happen with the compact lux segment a few years from now.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok, got it.

    M
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles