Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
To the point. Thank you's are in order here.
So . . .
THANK YOU, PAT!
AND . . . THANK YOU TO EDMUNDS MANAGEMENT.
TagMan
MARQUES> CARS)!Hi Dewey. Nice to hear from you. I too went into "read-only" mode for a while (just to be clear to everyone, not boycotting, just fell about 1700 messages behind while on vacation and never able to catch up; now Pat has given me an excuse to skip over the last 1700 messages! So if I say something already covered or miss some allusion to a previous post, please forgive me).
Thanks for that link to the BusinessWeek article. I raised the question in that other short-lived forum (HELV or whatever) that nobody has really answered: is the still low ratings in CR for S more based on the average of the past 3 years (which includes '04-'06), so that any improvements made in '06 got overshadowed by the well-documented problems in '04 and '05? I'd like to believe that the earlier 2 years masked any significant improvement in the last year of production; this becomes very relevant if I wanted to consider a lightly used '06 some time in the future.
Anyway, I am still hoping that MB has really righted themselves with the quality of the W221. This line from BusinessWeek gives me hope:
Since electronics problems peaked in 2002, the number of flaws has dropped 72%, to about one per car. And warranty costs are down by 25% this year. "It's about doing things right 1 million times over," says Mercedes Chief Operating Officer Rainer Schmückle.
But boy, all you have to do is look at the online "reader's comments" following that article and you see how far MB has to come to win back previous owners.
Oh heck, keep us posted on it from time to time . . . I'm sure a little blurb or two won't destroy the forum.
Quote from BusinessWeek:
But Mercedes still has a long way to go.
Y'know . . . BusinessWeek is a great magazine, IMO. I subscribe to it, and love it. Remember that article about BMW I posted recently? That was also a good one, IMO.
That quote from the article you posted makes us realize that while MB is on the right path, the final benefits won't show up for a while yet. But it is good news, nonetheless . . . especially in the wake of the recent CR report, which can't be helpful as it extends the poor quality reputation, even though it is more of a historical data report as opposed to a current one.
Fortunately the current reliability is likely improved beyond what the CR report would have us believe.
That should mark the end of those bad CR reports for MB, as future reports should start to reflect the current improvement . . . finally.
Edit: I see garyh has made a good reply. Nice to see he has made it back to this HELC (?) forum.
TagMan
Thanks Pat!
M
True the new ML, R and GL (in that order) are built pretty well physically as far as their interiors and bodies go, especially the GL, but there are still many posts about problems with suspension (on models with Airmatic), nav systems, and even transmissions. That latter of which I don't get because other Mercedes' (E,S,SL,CLS,CL,C350 etc.) use the same tranny and there have been very few if any problems. Someone is still pinching pennies in Bama it showing up once again.
Now with the GL450 Mercedes made a curious decision regarding Airmatic. Every other Mercedes that has Airmatic (S550, E550, all CLS models, E63, ML63) have the adaptive damping standard, but the GL450 has just airmatic with no adaptive damping standard, to get it you have to order the off-road package. That is the only major difference between the GL450's airmatic and say the S550s, and the GL450's airmatic has been troublesome and the S550's isn't. The MBworld forums on the new S-Class has no reports of any problems and some of these owners now have over 10K on their cars. Total opposite to when the W220 was introduced.
With the new X5 BMW produces the same level of fit and finish here as they do in cars made in Germany. Why Mercedes won't (because I know they can) do that is beyond me. Oh well I'm not in charge of the plant. Why the ML and R have the old 5L V8 is beyond me also, a ML550 or ML450 should have been a given ditto for the R. Hopefully they'll do an early 08' model (next spring) with a sligh re-fresh next spring with the new V8(s).
M
(Tagman, I knew drfill was kidding, btw.)
BTW, since you're "lurking" about . . . you had suggested twice on the short-lived HELV/C forum that you have never objected to different body styles, so long as they were high end. Does that mean that I can continue some discussion with Designman regarding our Porsche quests, and with lexusguy about the high end suv's?
TagMan
Good question? Maybe the good 06 results for the S were overshadowed by lousy results for 04 and 05. And even if that is the case I would still not get too excited about the new 06 S in terms of reliability since it is still far too early to determine how they will hold out in the long term. Various MB models that were rated above average by JD and CR have ended up being rated below-average in later years. Consistent high quality throughout the years is no longer a Benz-like attribute ( My wife and I still drive my dad's problem-free 83 MB300D with its close to Guiness Book World record mileage numbers on its odometer)
The latest CR ratings for various Audi models have been very positive. Unfortunately these one year results will not transform Audis into Lexuses in terms of reliability. Lexus has earned it reputation for quality by being consistent throughout the years. Audi ,MB, BMW and even Porsche have still a long way to go.
How can I forget. I think that BMW article you had posted was responsible for at least 2000 posts in what was then called the HELM forum.
Dont worry. Unfortunately that leaves the BMW 7 and 6 as conversation topics which just happen to be my least two favorite cars from BMW.
There are a lot of things tha MB did with it's biggest ever US offering that is sort of interesting.
But one thing is for sure, they didn't skimp on the refinement and dynamics, which makes an '07 Escalade look like a '34 Buick, all for the same money(as a matter fact, the MB starts 1800 bucks less). And it has a 3rd row that borders on Surburban-expansive. Couple that with it's relatively low weight(for the class) and some real athletic moves, and you have one SUV that is unphased in this class. Ok, the Q7 does compare nicely, which happens to be it's closes competitor.
Welcome back from your short hiatus, Dewey!
But, as I see it, regarding Audi, very few owners report the problems that are so purported with German cars. I had the most technology-driven, most powerful and biggest Audi of them all, yet that car never saw one unscheduled visit.
The same can be said for many other German cars. The 3-Series for instance(using it as a point, PAT) is enjoying record breaking satisfaction scores. I don't think these people are very happy to know the service manager by first name. This car is now as reliable as it's Japanese/American comp.
And the latest MB's are absolutely stellar, mainly the E and S, with the E having 75% less problems than the 96-03 model it replaces.
And it's not all cake and ice cream over at Lexus. Several problems have aroused about the LS' 6-speed autobox and the previous 5-speed. The LX470 has not been the model of reliability that most will lead some to believe, right along with it's LC platformate. Diddo the GX.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But I must confess, the new S-Class controls are by far and away the most intuitive I've seen from MB in a while.
I've seen the MDX, both inside and out, and I came away not all too impressed, especially with the downmarket interior, looking rated under an Explorer Limited's interior. And that exterior, is well let's just say uninspired. I'm now convienced the Honda/Acura designers post-TSX/TL are completely moronic. The new CRV looks like something off of the cartoon movie Cars(and not in a good way), and the new RDX is even worst.
On the X5, I've heard glowing reviews on it. Everything from the improved driving dynamics to the newly embossed interior is said to be of first-rate.
I can tell you the Q7 is more than competitive.
TagMan
"Thank you for your recent internet inquiry.
We anticipate the release of a GL320 CDI at some point in the first quarter of 2007 as a 2008 Model Year vehicle. At this time, we do not have any information regarding the release of a GL550 and the V8 Diesel engine will not be available for the US Market. We would encourage you to periodically check our website. This would be the best source for news on all our models, and can be accessed at www.mbusa.com"
So I'd say that for 2008 we might, might get the GL550 (GL500 that is running around Europe now), but no to the V8 GL420 CDI. There will be no GL63 AMG, one of the AMG bosses has already stated this.
M
There is no way I'd ever let these surveys dictate what type of car I buy. Never. There are GL450 owners who are reporting that their GLs are making a slight hissing noise when parked, i.e. the airmatic is just leveling the car or lowering it after it is parked, but I'm sure some have reported this as a "problem".
M
I have driven the Q7 extensively and I love it. I think [hope] my wife will to.
The S class interior is very clean and modern. I can't speak to how intuitive it is, or isn't.
"Thank you for your recent internet inquiry.
My personal experience with contacting manufacturers has typically been a waste. It is nothing more than a lesson in public relations.
The primary interest of MB is to sell cars. Almost every time there is internal knowledge that an upcoming model could canabalize existing sales, the information is somehow non-existent, not up-to-date, or is totally incorrect.
I completely understand how it is in MB's interest to suggest that there will be no upcoming diesel GL for the US market, because there are lots of current units to sell, and those sales are mission critical. But there have been other indications that there will be a diesel GL, and it just makes too much darned good obvious sense. I still believe that there will be a diesel GL for the U.S. market announced or available within 2 years.
BTW, I read your post about the ML quality issues that seem to emerge from the Alabama assembly plant. I found that to be very interesting.
TagMan
Yes the issues at the Bama plant go back to day one. I guess they're too deep to correct this time around. A shame really. One plant in Germany spits out the SL, S and CL, all shimmering in build quality and the Bama plant isn't anywhere close except for maybe the GL450. Hell if this new S proves to be reliable there will be no excuse as to why the ML, GL and R aren't. Mercedes knows how to build a reliable car, they did it for years. Someone, somewhere forgot that, but they seem to have remembered how to do so with the S (fingers crossed), but no one told the folks in Bama how to or showed them the best materials to assemble the ML and R with.
M
M
We've all seen this before, when the steering wheel's hub uses the center axis as a pivot point, and therefore needs the "space" to move (push on side to side) the hub in order to honk the horn. The gap is by design, but there are alternatives that other manufacturers have clearly proven are less unsightly.
TagMan
It just doesn't belong in a vehicle starting slightly south of $60k. It's hard to say this, but the Escalade's(altho tilt only-MANUAL AT THAT!!) is more nicely wrought out.
The whole IP is a bit uninspired to my eyes, but the use of materials and assembly are first rate.
But as Tag eluded to, the steering wheel gaps are part of the function of the wheel, not a design flaw. But it is a cheapened way to get a better wheel to fully integrate the wheel controls and hub, like on most other high end cars.
Well I think it is just plain poor (i.e. cheap) design. Mercedes does much better on their other models so there is no excuse for the R/M/GL steering wheel to look that way.
M
I myself have shared your positive experiences with German cars for more than two decades. And I can assure you that JD or CR will not sway me to purchase or not purchase a car. The non-existence of JD or CR stats on BMW twin turbos did not prevent me from buying one.
Having said that I think you and I can agree upon the importance of JD and CR stats for the automobilie buying public. The weakness of all German luxury cars is that there is not a single model that has consistently earned red dots for more than a few years as an overall score from CR or has ranked as best in class by JD on a consistent basis.
Lexus has achieved that with many of its models on a consistent basis throughout the years.
Is that important? I dont think so! But from a strictly marketing perspective it certainly does help Lexus.
altho the wood wheel on my S600 is pretty cool.
Jaguar Vanden Plas steering wheel is wood, both top and bottom, with leather in the center and both sides, good balance between the two, decent thickness, coordinates with burl interior, and is also internally heated in conjunction with heated seats
. . . three temp selections. Well done, IMO . . . but I'd have to say my favorite has always been quality leather.
I also like a thick grip . . . skinny is no good, IMO.
BTW, Targa is supposed to arrive within next few days.
TagMan
Lexus has achieved that with many of its models on a consistent basis throughout the years.
Is that important? I dont think so!
Not important because you think the numbers are wrong? Or because a true enthusiast shouldn't care about reliability?
Good professional wine tasters will smell the bouquet of a bottle and tell you whether it is a good wine or not.
Apparently you are uniquely endowed with a nose that can tell the quality of a car from the residue of its wood, leather and chemicals. I am very impressed
But seriously it is not only American built Benzes that fall short in quality. When I sat in a BMW X3 I was shocked at its low quality interior. Is it mere coincidence that the X3 happens to be built in Austria by a Canadian auto supply company (Magna Steyr) ? I dont think so!
It makes me wonder if Chinese built Audis have the same high quality fit and finish as the Audis that are built in Germany? It is possible that a supplier of Chery(Chinese Auto company) supplies some parts for a Chinese-made Audi?
TagMan
Yep..lol! Seriously though a Mercedes has a distinctive aroma as do most European luxury cars.
But seriously it is not only American built Benzes that fall short in quality. When I sat in a BMW X3 I was shocked at its low quality interior. Is it mere coincidence that the X3 happens to be built in Austria by a Canadian auto supply company (Magna Steyr) ? I dont think so!
Well here is the difference between BMW and Mercedes, BMW is more aggressive. Didn't the 07 X3 get a mild interior revamp to address this issue? Mercedes likely won't do much to correct this right away with the ML/R, they'll wait until the facelift and that will be a couple more years. Judging by what they've done at facelift time regarding the E and SL there is hope for the ML/R interiors.
M
Wrong and wrong again.
The numbers may be correct and I do care about reliability. But the differences between average reliability and excellent reliability in cars is far too subtle for me to care about. This is not the 1970s of exploding Pintos. IMO the most important diffence between cars is how they drive. And usually that difference is more than subtle.
It makes me wonder if Chinese built Audis have the same high quality fit and finish as the Audis that are built in Germany?
It is known fact that different assembly plants have different results in quality. Merc's recent indication about Mercedes' Alabama plant having quality concerns is a real issue. Interestingly, I learned from a friend of mine who owns a Honda dealership, that their Hybrid model is DELIBERATELY assembled in Japan to assure its quality. What does THAT say?
No surprise here, IMO.
TagMan
Until their customers become more discerning regarding reliability issues the customers will just have to settle for "almost as good".
Reliability usually means that the cars are just made better...closer tolerances, better materials, more modern mfg. plants etc., etc., etc.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Nope not at all. Just the opposite.
In fact Toyota employees visit BMW factories to learn how well BMWs are manufactured(please refer to that BMW article from Businessweek that Tagman had posted about a month ago).
This is not the 1970s of exploding Pintos.
True, but do you recall a story on Edmunds from a fellow who went through a carwash and had both of his bumpers fall off because of the action of the brushes? Not life and death in that particular situation. But not a car I'd choose to buy.
I would indeed buy a car with average reliability if I found its other attributes to be sufficiently more desirable over a more reliable competitor. Might even find myself in that position next year, if I view the Q7 as offering average reliability at that time, for example.
Another way I think about this issue is that there are certain brands, such as MB, where I can't see myself buying a first-year model unless it offers something truly compelling. I just don't trust the brand that much. With Lexus on the other hand, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a first-year model if I liked the vehicle only moderately more than the competition.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yes, interesting . . . BTW, almost three times . . . #3 is a few more days away, as Porsche will not release the Targa vehicles until the "official launch date", which is tentatively this weekend, at least from what I am told.
I guess I should explain all this anyway, as sooner or later the question will come up. The reason I am expecting to purchase this vehicle is that recently I injured myself and according to doctor's orders I should not drive a car with a rough ride or even a manual transmission for quite a while, and perhaps forever. That means goodbye to my brand new Lotus.
After getting over the depression and sadness, I have determined that the only car that I would be interested in that could still be a lot of fun and still meet the doctor's requirements would be the Targa with a Tiptronic.
If, after a number of years, and physical therapy, I am allowed to shift again, then I will see what is on the market at that time.
So . . . I didn't know if I would mention this on the forum, but in the event that I start talking about the car, at least everyone will know why I purchased a Tiptronic. Every sports car I have ever owned, without any exception, has always had a manual transmission. This will be new territory for me. It is a mixed blessing, as I am sad that it is a Tiptronic, yet I am grateful that there is such a thing for me at this time.
Otherwise, I might have selected a Mercedes SL550, and while very nice, I think the Porsche 911 Carrera 4S Targa is the right move for me at this time.
That's the real story guys . . . just thought I'd let you all in on it.
Lesson is . . . anything and everything can change or be gone in a flash . . . don't take anything or, more importantly, anyone for granted.
TagMan
IMO an X5 without the sport and dynamic handling options is an X5 not worth buying . With these two options the X5 will have the driving dynamics that is as close to a performance car as an SUV can be.
The Boxster and Cayman are assembled by Valmet in Uusikaupunki, Finland.