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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    2008 or 2009 Jaguar XF to replace the S-type. Thank goodness.

    image

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Did someone drop a neutron bomb in those LS forums?

    Apparently there is no living being inhabiting those LS forums?

    To answer your primary question, in effect, yes, the management of this site did a Hiroshima on the LS Forums, scattering quality posters everywhere. Too much of a good ting, I guess? :confuse:

    I somehow landed here :cry:

    Single-barrel Jack will get me through these playa-hatin' times. ;)

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The overall marketing impression that this car is somehow loaded with tons of features not found on any other car in its class is a joke and a half. Even Drfill posted numerous references to all the bountiful rumored extras, yet when I asked him to identify them, he came up short. Why? Because it is an indication of the hype that is so much associated with the LS.

    So let me get this straight.

    I list three packages that out-do a S550, and you poo-poo them, so now I came up short?

    And the test by C&D you guys are NOW SWEARING BY, not the previous 3 wins by the LS, just this loss, where they gave the LS the #1 ranking for luxury features, easily besting the S550, gets neatly swept under the rug? :sick:

    I know if I'm looking for a fair shake I'm in the wrong place, but can Lexus at least get credit for doing something right? Come on, Tag! :mad:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Doc,

    I am not a Lexus fan, but I am a DrFill fan. :blush:

    I am glad you are a part of these forums, and as I've said before, it would be an unfortunate mistake to ever take any of my remarks regarding the Lexus vehicles in a personal way.

    Yes, Jack can come in handy now and then. ;)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Not taking anything personally, just disappointed, as I expect better from you. I hold you, and other top posters, to a high standard.

    Lexus hasn't come up short, nor have I. C&D has done better work, doh.

    And what exactly are you talking about, Toyota/Lexus makes unsafe cars? Never heard such a thing! :confuse:

    DrFill
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    You guys are really having way too much free time. I went on a client site for a few days and came back to all these anti LS posts....

    Has ANYONE yet verified the LS's 0-60 claimed times? Or does reality prove otherwise?

    Not personally, but here is the data from the test done by a magazine on the LS460 link title

    It looks like the regular LS460 is neck and neck with the S550 in the acceleration tests.
    The S easily bested the LS on breaking, but it probably was equiped with the right tires for the test (see break comment).

    Here is the test result for the S550 link title

    One place that the tested LS blown the S out of the water is the Price as tested category. :surprise:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I did not know you were such a believer in magazine articles. I guess you should have read last years Road and Track where the Porsche Carrera S came in third behind a Corvette and a Boxter! You could have saved 30 or 40 large.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Hi DrFill

    I`m still with you, but lament the LS direction on price...Sort of like getting a good time peace, and having the option of stainless steel ve gold....The mechanism for keeping time is the same, but the outside differ, depending on how much you want to spend...When things settle down, maybe a person who values the dependable Lexus, will get a large discount and the value factor could come back.. It`s hard for me to believe that the breaks on the LS are what is reported, so we`l just have to wait and see..On my last Lexus I found the seats to be poor, so lookforward to testing the new ones out...Hpowders is a pretty astute observer of seats, and I have learned some form him, although I differ on the bmw 7 driving experience. I found the steering to be feather light--strangely so--but the 5 is fine...I found Tagman`s pictures of the S vs LS dash to be a good guide, and wonder what your thoughts are on the comparison??? Anyway just a faint supporter of the LS and a strong supporter of you Tony
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    It looks like the regular LS460 is neck and neck with the S550 in the acceleration tests.

    Actually the LS edges out the S slightly both 0-60 and in the 1/4 mile. Wonder if this one was pre-production or not? Those LS brakes still do look disappointing. I wish the car mags would put identical brand/model tires on each car in a comparo.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Add the uncomfortable foot well and the sink to the floor driver's seat and you have a vehicle which would seem over-priced at $50k.

    IMO, Lexus has made a major error in raising the price of the new LS460 since, given the reviews, the LS460 is not an improvement over the LS430.

    What's luxury without safety? At the very least, Lexus should recall these new vehicles and fix the brakes.

    If I were looking for an LS, I would snap up one of the remaining LS430's at way below invoice.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    But the last 3 wins don't mean a ting!
    Because:
    It's all about:
    "What have you done for me lately?"
    And regarding the LS460 the answer appears to be:
    "Not very much."
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    If you thought that what I said was "less than credible", then for sure the old noggin is working overtime.

    Re-read the post. And fully this time preferably without the usual cynicism and bias.

    Not once did I compare the 300 to the LS. No, the current 300 is not an LS460. We all know this. And you know good and well that I didn't directly compare the two.

    What was said is that the acres of GM-grade hard plastic can be acceptable in a 300C HEMI at a pricepoint of 32k. It is grossly unacceptable on a $61k car, let alone a fully-plushed $92k model.

    With each passing post, your "crediabilty" of being the best Lexus spokesman in the past 17 years rings through clearly...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Sorry that you feel that the company that actually invented the automobile hasn't done anything in the past 100 years.

    They actually invented the best thing since, well, the wheel the automobile sits on.

    And for the money, just having a park feature and a few idiotic options doesn't equate to a car "taking the competition by storm.

    The S550 has more safety, better use of it's optional features, and of course the brand prestige to pull such lofty numbers. The cheaper LS460 is here, yet the M-O-M sales of the S550 has risen 8-12%, respectively, with the passing months it's been on sale.... Value?, the public ain't buying it anymore...
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    People are still pulling hair here. I did my last peace-making post to keep us from becoming AutoSpies. I fear that this will if the bickering continues.

    My factual, informative, tasty, to-the-point analyses of the cars in question:

    Lexus LS- For those who would rather be driven than drive themselves

    BMW 7 Series- The polar opposite of the LS. For those who want a big sedan, but would rather drive than be driven.

    Audi A8- For those who want to drive in all seasons, and for those who want something unique and kind of rare.

    Mercedes S-Class- You can both drive and be driven in this one; in high style, I may add. Not that the others aren't stylish. But this one takes the bling factor to a new level.

    All have key sell points, and besides the 7 Series, within the other three, none are truly better vehicles than the next. If I could pick one to drive, I'd pick the Audi S8, and if I could have one to be driven in, it would be the Mercedes S600, but with different wheels. Standard wheels are extremely boring.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I expect better from you. I hold you, and other top posters, to a high standard.

    And what exactly are you talking about, Toyota/Lexus makes unsafe cars? Never heard such a thing!

    Gee, Doc, just because you never heard of it, doesn't mean it isn't the truth. I was only posting the FACTS & the TRUTH, that's all. That IS EXACTLY what posting at a high standard is all about.

    Here's THE PROOF & the link!!!

    TOYOTA MODELS RANK AT BOTTOM OF CRASH-SAFETY STUDY

    Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than any other automaker ranked at the bottom of a crash-protection study.
    Toyota and its LEXUS division accounted for nine of 16 vehicles with "acceptable," "marginal" or "poor" rear- impact protection, lowering their overall rating, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety said today.

    Toyota models rank at bottom of crash-safety study

    Looks to me like more air is leaking out of that Toyota bubble.

    Well now you can't say "never heard such a thing" (but will CR?)...
    ...and you can still know darn well that my posts are at that "high standard" you speak of, and have honest credibility.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What was said is that the acres of GM-grade hard plastic can be acceptable in a 300C HEMI at a pricepoint of 32k. It is grossly unacceptable on a $61k car, let alone a fully-plushed $92k model.

    Amen.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Point of clarification:

    "DOH"

    Do you mean the word as used by James Finlayson, mister double-take, in the old Laurel and Hardy flicks as a sign of exasperation or do you actually mean "duh" which needs no explanation.

    A small ting, but I really would like to know.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    People are still pulling hair here. I did my last peace-making post to keep us from becoming AutoSpies. I fear that this will if the bickering continues.

    No reason to fear. These are genuine disagreements which will surely happen at times . . . but that does not mean it is bickering at all. I see a little poking, but mostly lots of personal respect, valuable information and credible opinions going in both directions here... this Edmunds forum is light years above AutoSpies!

    BTW, thanks for your supplemental analyses.

    TagMan
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I've seen but not yet driven the new LS but will post my views on my car as a current owner of the 05 version. (by all accounts, the genetics haven't changed much on the 07) This car is as bullet proof as they get. All electronics work as they should and are easy to use. The ride is soft and serene.
    Now for the minuses: The seats are too flat and not supportive, the steering is loose and unresponsive and the handling is a bit sloppy. The driving experience is uninvolving. BMW has great driving dynamics. The seats are terrific and I think that they are really the technology leaders in engines while having the best suspensions. Did you see the Edmunds test here on the new 335 coupe? 0-60 in 4.8! Wait until they get the turbo 8s going. One thing about BMW is that they always understate their speed. No bash on Lexus as I think they build incredibly reliable, luxurious and easy to live with machines but they have become the worlds best Buick.
    I do like the evolution in styling though. I saw a new ES and to me it looked as good as the new LS- a good thing for the ES but I'm not so sure it's good for the LS. As for winter driving, I think that the BMW dynamics and all of the electronic nannies make it a fine bad weather car as long as you don't have summer tires on it and a really good winter car with snows. I had a 3 series that was unstoppable in snow with winter tires. (I think that the driver is the key to snow driving anyway as I've seen more than my share of SUVs flipped or in accidents during storms).
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    This is actually a perfect example of incorrect reporting and spin. This article that you provided to us does not accurately reflect the data from the IIHS itself. The article clearly gives the casual and incurious reader the impression that Toyota and Lexus vehicles perform poorly in crash tests. However, the rear protection crash study is more concerned with head restraint and seat design and is only one of many tests that the IIHS performs on a vehicle. Most Toyota and Lexus vehicles have a "Good" rating for OVERALL crash protection. If Toyota/Lexus vehicles simply had better head restraint and seat designs, the manufacturer would have more "Top Safety Pick" vehicles than any other manufacturer. See for yourself:

    (Straight from the horses mouth)

    link title

    Seventeen other vehicles would have won 2007 awards if they had good seat/head restraint designs. Toyota could have claimed nine TOP SAFETY PICK awards, including three Lexus winners. Honda could have picked up four additional awards, including one for an Acura.

    "Protection in rear crashes is an area where many vehicles lag behind in safety," Lund notes. "As manufacturers continue to improve seat/head restraints, we expect to see more winners."

    AND...

    ALSO-RANS
    Rear protection isn't good

    These vehicles earned good ratings in front and side crash tests. They have electronic stability control, standard or optional. They would have won 2007 TOP SAFETY PICK awards if their seat/head restraints also had earned good ratings. Instead rear crash protection is rated acceptable, marginal, or poor (Honda reports that the seat/head restraints in the only Civic model with electronic stability control wouldn’t be rated good).

    Acceptable rear protection
    Audi A3
    BMW 3-series 4dr
    Lexus IS 250/350

    Marginal rear protection
    Acura TL
    Honda Odyssey
    Lexus ES 350
    Lexus GS 350
    Toyota Camry
    Toyota FJ Cruiser
    Toyota Prius
    Toyota RAV4

    Poor rear protection
    Honda Accord 4dr
    Infiniti M35
    Nissan Quest
    Toyota Avalon
    Toyota Sienna
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Not even close, Hemi. The first automobile was invented by some Frenchmen named Cugnot in 1771, long before either Daimler or Benz were born. Does that mean, armed with the new knowledge, your should be buying some French cars now? ;-) Not even close. What a company invented 100+ years ago is irrelevent.

    Speaking of idiotic features, MB will do well re-think its COMMAND interface.

    The S550 has more safety, better use of it's optional features, and of course the brand prestige to pull such lofty numbers.

    The new S class has not been independently tested by the "crashing houses" yet. The historical record of S class was not especially good at all. As to prestige, well, all that discounting and lease subsidies across MB's model line up answer that question. Of course people care about value, that's why MB offers discounts and lease subsidies, dah!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    JC,
    Sorry, but just because the standards for safety have been raised doesn't mean we can say Toyota/Lexus WOULD have won if somehow they just didn't include one or two of the safety measurements. THAT would be a spin.

    The tests are now inclusive of all the current different measurements, and combined give a more comprehensive perspective of a vehicle's safety.

    This comprehensive result is now the new standard for measurement. Interesting, that once the new standard was put into effect we clearly see the results that Toyota/Lexus vehicles receive most of the worst ratings for crash-safety.

    Like it or not, that's the way it now is. It's of little value to say "could haves and would haves", and call the real test a spin.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Excellent post with good info. You hit the nail on the head about poor reporting and spin. Most of us just sit back and laugh when some of these guys start their spinning wheel. Thank you for the rest of the story.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IIHS article is readily available to anyone who can read; all that spin is quite unnecessary.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Bright, or not so bright?

    The first mass-market autommobile as we know it came from Benz in 1889.

    This one is the first true automobile. Ask any auto buff and they will tell you. This ain't some French tinker toy that you'd have us to believe was the first car.

    The S-Class, of course hasn't been tested by the crash houses yet, no, but the car has the most safety equipment standard of any car in it's class, and yes that includes the Lexus LS460, and brand who is struggling with safety with those crash houses...

    What lease subsidies are you referring to? For sure you mean the '07 GL? The '07 E350/550, the new S550? Heck no because they don't exist..

    Now that $459/mth '06 LS430 sounds extremely good right about now....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "...all that spin is quite unnecessary."

    Doesn't feel so well when it is the golden L that's getting it you know where.

    Pursuit of Perfection? Yes, if live to tell about it...
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Actually, Tagman, you may be putting words into my mouth. In no way did I insinuate that the rear crash protection results should have been left out. [Now I apologize if I am putting words into your mouth]. It is pure nonsense that
    "once the new standard was put into effect we clearly see the results that Toyota/Lexus vehicles receive most of the worst ratings for crash-safety." The reason that so many Toyota vehicles were even noted is because these vehicles have excellent crashworthiness in all other tests EXCEPT for rear-end protection (you will see this in the actual IIHS press release instead of the spin document that you provided to us). If you look up the crash-test results for each of the Toyota and Lexus vehicles that were noted in the official IIHS press release (and accounted for in your spin document), you will see that I am correct. While you are at it, why don't you look at some of your favorite European models to view their overall crashworthiness; the results will not be as favorable as the Toyota and Lexus vehicles that you are trying to criticize. Most were not even in the running for a "Top Safety Pick" award and so were not even mentioned in the official IIHS press release.

    The results of one battery of tests by the IIHS DO NOT invalidate the results of another set of tests from the IIHS. The rear-protection test IS NOT a comprehensive safety test (and your spin document DOES NOT even suggest this). It would help if you would actually pay a visit to the IIHS website yourself so that you can avoid making such unsupported conjectures.

    Some of your favorite vehicles also would have the worst crash ratings by your own standards:

    Audi
    link title

    BMW
    link title

    Jaguar
    link title

    Mercedes
    link title

    BMW vehicles, in particular, have very poor rear-end protection scores. However, I don't expect you to conclude that they are some of most unsafe vehicles out there - as you are clearly doing with Toyota/Lexus vehicles.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    IIHS article is readily available to anyone who can read; all that spin is quite unnecessary.

    Oh, I agree with you that there should be no spin and accept the test results for what they are... which now officially LOWERS Toyota/Lexus insurance ratings.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Actually, Tagman, you may be putting words into my mouth. In no way did I insinuate that the rear crash protection results should have been left out.

    Fair enough... but there should be no confusion that these new measurements are significant enough to lower Toyota/Lexus's ratings. ALL manufacturers were subjected to the same tests, not just Toyota/Lexus.

    Bottom line... a crack in the Toyota/Lexus armor... the bubble is leaking.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wow aint that a fluke!

    I bought a 3 and 5 series this year without knowing how superb their crash safety records were. Oh yes and both my cars unlike the Lexus LS have amazing brakes also. Makes me feel like my my wife and I own two Swedish cars :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I hear what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense.

    But as Tagman said all car companies are measured by these new standards.

    Similarily reliability ratings change with time. Today a below average reliability rating in Consumers Reports does not neccessarily mean a model is a lemon. While in the 70s or 80s a below average rating almost guaranteed that a model is a lemon.

    Does it make sense for a 2004 MB M Class owner to boast that his auto is very reliable compared to 1970s models? No! Does it make sense to say Toyotas do not have the largest number of least safe autos because prior year safety standards were not so strict? No!

    If you are going to evaluate a car then you got to use the tougher criteria (reliability or safety) of today and not some softer criteria of yesterday.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Exactly! Although BMW performed very poorly overall in the rear-end crash protection test by the IIHS, the other BMW crash test ratings are stellar and I certainly would feel extremely safe in a BMW. Just like Toyota/Lexus, BMW will have some "Top Safety Pick" models once the head restraint/seat design issue is addressed in the next couple of years. A poor showing in one of many tests does not make a car unsafe, as both of us are aware of :blush:
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    there should be no confusion that these new measurements are significant enough to lower Toyota/Lexus's ratings. ALL manufacturers were subjected to the same tests, not just Toyota/Lexus.

    Bottom line... a crack in the Toyota/Lexus armor... the bubble is leaking.

    Shouldn't you be saying the same about BMW? It didn't fare so well in rear crash ratings either.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I found Tagman`s pictures of the S vs LS dash to be a good guide, and wonder what your thoughts are on the comparison??? Anyway just a faint supporter of the LS and a strong supporter of you Tony

    Thanks for the luv, Tony! Where would I be without my people, my fans? Probably building a new LS board! :blush:

    I am no fan of the 7's interior, and the S apes the 7 a little too much for my taste. If you're looking for something new, or better, don't look thur! BMW should be oh so flattered.

    If anyone wants to see a real interior, just check out pages 28 & 29 of this month's C&D.

    You can say what you want, but at the end of the day, Lexus can sell the hell out of a car!

    That Kool-Aid sure is refreshing right about now! Ahhhhhhhh! Sweet! :D

    DrFill
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Of course "all car companies are measured by these new standards." I just took great offense at the conjecture that Toyota and Lexus vehicles are some of the most unsafe vehicles on the road because of the poor performance in the rear-end crash protection test when many of the competing European makes scored no better on these same tests. Toyota/Lexus still manufactures very safe vehicles overall, as do Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. Just please don't say that a Toyota/Lexus model is unsafe when a competing European model scores the same or worse on the same test.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In case you did not notice, they are still rated "Good," the highest rating available. That is a far cry from the spin you gave: "RANK AT BOTTOM OF CRASH-SAFETY STUDY"
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    What was said is that the acres of GM-grade hard plastic can be acceptable in a 300C HEMI at a pricepoint of 32k. It is grossly unacceptable on a $61k car, let alone a fully-plushed $92k model.

    Definitely don't want to read a post like that more than once. It will definitely have to be rewritten, and neutered!

    You are implying the interior plastics of the LS ape those of the 300. Having driven both cars, I know you are wrong. That was your point, no?

    The two cars do not belong in the same sentence. Period. :sick:

    Funny how you can't spell the word "credibility"......

    Please move on.

    DrFill
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    I had a BMW 745Li that was a constant headache. After a grueling Lemon Law process, BMW was forced to take the vehicle back :lemon: . It was an electronic nightmare. The vehicle drove better than ANY luxury car on the market. HOWEVER, if you are at all interested in the electronics being reliable & functional - skip the BMW. The service history was appalling (at least 1-2 visits a month). The car was in the shop more than it was out. And, the icing on the cake...BMW feels that the number of repairs is a resaonable sacrifice to make for the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Give me a break. They can't fix the car and make no apologies! They have had the same problems with their vehicles for YEARS, and have no desire to correct them.

    In my search for a replacement vehicle, I have narrowed it down to the Lexus LS460 L and the MB S550. The MB is more impressive for handling, but it is $15K more than the Lexus with less options. In addition, I am factoring in the reliability, service history and consumer satisfaction ratings. At the present time, Lexus takes the cake, hands down. Unfortunately, I will have to sacrifice a few things. The body roll and responsiveness of the vehicle are disappointing.

    There is no "perfect car". You have to sacrifice something. I think each person has to draw their own lines at what that will be.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    "In fact that would be almost as ludicrous as saying Toyotas do not have the largest number of least safe autos based on prior year safety ratings."

    What data did you base this conjecture on; it is not supported by the IIHS. Again, the rear-crash protection results are only one of several tests performed by the IIHS and do not invalidate any of the other tests performed by the IIHS. The Toyota/Lexus vehicles in question all have "Good" ratings in every type of crash test EXCEPT for rear-end protection (just like several competing European models), so I do not know how you would conclude that Toyota/Lexus has the largest number of unsafe vehicles when even the IIHS has not even made such a statement.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I had a BMW 745Li that was a constant headache.

    I can understand your bitterness towards BMW. I would feel the same way if I had a lemon like yours. Fortunately I have been a very satisfied owner of BMWs for over eight years. I guess it has something to do with the fact that I never owned a 7 series. Nor do I have any desire to own a 7 series.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The ratings of OVERALL crash safety in their "large luxury cars" category:

    link title

    1. Audi A6

    2. Lexus GS

    3. Infiniti M35/M45

    4. Mercedes E class

    5. Cadillac DTS

    6. Volvo S80

    7. BMW 5 series

    8. Acura RL

    9. Lincoln Town Car

    10. Cadillac CTS

    11. Cadillac STS
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Mellow out with the shouting, dude. :confuse:

    I never doubted you, just thought I'd ask what's that about?

    My official response is, if I were Toyota/Lexus, I'd take a "poor" rating, and work on that like a weakness or disease. A "marginal" or "acceptable" rating is nothing to write articles about.

    Tag, Two Tings!

    First Ting is I think some blok in Salt Lake got you to read his article by throwing "Toyota" and "anything bad" into the title.

    And my soupy #2 is check the front end of Toyota/Lexus cars, where the vast majority of accidents occur.

    Nothing less than a top mark. Not one.

    Toyota, and Lexus, know what they're doing. They sleep very soundly.

    Damn, so do I! Cool! :)

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My conjecture is based on their overall ratings as mentioned below.

    Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than any other automaker ranked at the bottom of a crash-protection study.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    You may want to check out the Lexus with the sportier suspension, which may improve the driving experience...A few years ago I think it was called `European Suspension` On my last Lexus I had the air suspension, and as far as I could tell it did not improve the experience, just firmed it up a bit...Good Luck, and if I were in your position I would surely check out the dealership of whichever car I were to get....Tony
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    And for their "midsize luxury/near luxury cars":

    link title

    1. Audi A4

    2. Saab 9-3

    3. Lexus IS

    4. BMW 3 series

    5. Lexus ES 350

    6. Acura TL

    7. Volvo S60

    8. Mercedes C class

    9. Saab 9-5

    10. Acura TSX

    11. Lincoln MKZ

    12. Jaguar X-Type

    Blkhemi, in view of the results for the C and E as compared to Lexus models, I wonder if you are still confident that the S is safer than the LS?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Point of clarification:

    "DOH"

    Do you mean the word as used by James Finlayson, mister double-take, in the old Laurel and Hardy flicks as a sign of exasperation or do you actually mean "duh" which needs no explanation.

    A small ting, but I really would like to know

    Actually, it's more of a play on words, as I mean "Though", but would like to say it like "DOH!" (Homer Simpson). :)

    DrFill
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    thanks, I already checked that out and I am definitely getting the sport suspension (only available on the L). It still is lack luster compared to the BMW and MB. My current dilemma is deciding on the Touring Package which comes with 19" wheels and high friction breaks. I don't know how much difference they will make. And, it is 120 days out for production. In addition, you can't get the Touring Package AND the Luxury Package. For some reason, Lexus thinks you have to make a choice. I don't quite understand it. MB doesn't have that problem.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than any other automaker ranked at the bottom of a crash-protection study.

    That's at the bottom of the REAR IMPACT crash study, NOT the OVERALL crash study.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    I also did not make the "WOULD HAVE" and "SHOULD HAVE" arguments that you alluded to in your rebuttal. These statements were listed on the official IIHS press release itself; that is why Toyota/Lexus has even been mentioned. If the official press release did not mention these "WOULD HAVE" and "SHOULD HAVE" cases, than the casual and incurious reader would not erroneously conclude that Toyota/Lexus makes the most number of unsafe vehicles. Somehow I don't believe that you would have made the same argument if Audi, BMW, or Mercedes would have been included in the "WOULD HAVE" and "SHOULD HAVE" argument - this argument that Toyota/Lexus manufactures more unsafe vehicles than any other manufacturer. If you will spend some time viewing ALL of the crash test ratings for various models of choice, you will find that most of these models perform no better than the Toyota/Lexus models that you are criticizing.

    Side note: While I was initially angry at your post, those feelings have subsided. I have been lurking in this forum since September and felt that your posting was too over-the-top to ignore; I simply had to reply. I really just want you and everyone else to apply a bit more intellectual rigor and critical analysis to data that is presented by the media. Overall, the posters in this forum are clearly more mature and intelligent than those in other forums (such as the infamous Autospies), and I would like for it to remain that way and actually improve a notch. In my daily life I often hear people comment on things that they clearly know little about and it just wears me out.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This is the news report's EXACT words. I didn't write those words. I only posted them. I still believe they put a dent in the almighty TMC.

    Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than ANY other automaker ranked at the BOTTOM of a crash-protection study.
    Toyota and its LEXUS division accounted for nine of 16 vehicles with "acceptable," "marginal" or "poor" rear- impact protection, lowering their OVERALL rating, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety said today.

    TagMan
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