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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than any other automaker ranked at the bottom of a crash-protection study.

    More models overall than any other marque was what I meant.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    jcoby,
    OK... Cool. :shades:
    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    First we ourselves are accused as spin masters and now Reuters/Bloomberg or whoever printed that story are also anti-TMC spin masters.

    I hope this does not go to the World Court. I declare that I am innocent until proven guilty :P
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I know of 2 people who also had to resort to lemon law on the early new 7 series due to electronic issues. I'm surprised that BMW couldn't fix these issues. That said, I think they make an outstanding product. I owned an 01 330i that was great. Cars are so much more reliable today that even if they trail the Lexus in problems per car, that may translate into one trip to the service center vs none for the Lexus. I had to take my 3er in for a sticky gas pedal fix that a TSB was issued for.
    It was done very quickly and I was back driving with a smile. My LS on the other hand has had 0 issues. Whatever car you decide to go for in the luxury sector, you should be fine on reliability (I think that 7 was really an aberration). In my opinion you should get the one that makes you happiest while driving.
    While it is great security to know that the Lexus is "bullet proof", that aspect usually won't put a smile on your face while you are driving or when you get into the car. I don't think you could go wrong on the reliability front with any of the cars discussed in this forum-I think even the latest 7 series are OK now.
    Keep us posted on your decision.
    Good luck.
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    thanks - I feel as if I have to make make a decision that will involve sacrifice somewhere. Either in performance or my wallet.

    But, as far as the BMW is concerned it was not a unique situation. I know three other 7 series owners in the same boat. I was even warned before I purchased the beast. I was naive and thought the same as most in this discussion. However, in the long and arduous lemon process, BMW said they could NOT fix the bugs. Hence, I received a refund in lieu of a replacement vehicle. I would advise all to avoid BMW like the plague.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    crash test standards seem to be all over the map. I was reading somewhere that the Ford 500 got a gold rating the first year it came out. The second year the rules changed, and it finished close to the bottom in it's segment.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Hence, I received a refund in lieu of a replacement vehicle. I would advise all to avoid BMW like the plague.

    Thanks but no thanks. I currently love being afflicted with that pestilence called the BMW plague and wouldn't have it any other way. In fact there are no two cars on this earth that provides the value of my BMW335i or my wife's BMW 5 series Touring. NONE whatsoever. And I intend to replace my 335i with a new generation M5 ( the third best value car on this planet earth).
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    Is BMW the best on other planets too?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Only on the northern part of this planet where I currently reside in (Toronto). :)
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    Well, I'm happy for you. But in my part of the planet, BMW rates much lower on the list. :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Jcoby, welcome to the board. Your posts have been very thoughtful and intelligent and I certainly hope that you stick around. We could use more members like you here. Maybe we can make this a "no spin zone".

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I might sound biased, but I would go for the S550. The LS simply does not offer that all-around luxury car experience. It has no sporting pretensions- and having owned a BMW, I assume you'd like to have a car that can take a beating.

    Mercedes dealers are hit-and-miss. I was looking at an E350 4Matic for my wife (though she wasn't with me that day), and my son and I waited twenty minutes until a service personell finally walked by us (the rest were in their cubicles, not noticing us, the only customers in the entire dealership), and my son grabbed them as he saw them walk by. The E350 was competent, but not the dealer. I know there's also some superb customer service at other dealers. As it turns out, I'm buying her an A8. Perfect for her- no hideously annoying last-generation COMAND system, AWD, backup camera (she has it on the RX now), intriguing air suspension, etc...

    But the LS is nice, and I can see why you'd get it. But at this level, the S-Class is the only way to go. Why am I not getting it for her, then?

    1. She doesn't really appreciate the design of the new Benz, and two of her friends just got them (both blk/blk, one of them 4Matic). It has to be an exclusive car, you know.

    2. It's too big. I'm getting her a SWB A8. The car is half a foot shorter than the S-Class, which is only sold in LWB in the US.

    3. It's too expensive. I'm not in the mood to spend almost $100K this year on a car she won't necessarily love.

    4. It's too powerful. She's not exactly a skilled driver, and she might get herself killed in an S-Class, no matter how many high-tech safety features it may have. The A8 can be driven both like a Buick and like an M5, only with 150 less horsepower.

    5. Finally, it's too feature-laden. I would sure appreciate some of the features this car packs, but she would never know how to use it.

    Just my opinion.

    Also- if you're getting an S, you must get the AMG bodykit. It's ridiculously priced ($6,000), but it makes the car that much more beautiful.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I would advise all to avoid BMW like the plague."

    Thanks for the warning. I was considering getting the 335i coupe next year, but since it would probably explode or at the very least, fall apart between the showroom and driving it to my chateau, I have crossed it off my list.

    Always willing to listen to fine advice. You may have saved my life. Thanks again!

    BMW's? How can anyone actually drive those things? Don't they know the risks? It takes all kinds, I guess.
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    I like the S550 better, as you said, coming from a BMW it is a smoother transition. However, it is though to swallow the price difference. I am having trouble justifying it.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Of course it is a chink in Toyota's armor; I do not dispute this. However, it is quite a jump to say that Toyota and Lexus make more unsafe vehicles than any other manufacturer when that statement is not supported by the official IIHS press release or through an analysis of the data presented to the public via the IIHS database. The test in question is a rear-end protection test that many competing European models ALSO performed poorly in. The vehicle test pool alluded to in the official press release is far smaller than the universe of currently available models for 2007; if a vehicle performed poorly in any other IIHS tests, it was not even mentioned. The vehicles in question all have "Good" crash test ratings in every other measure by the IIHS. The vehicles in question actually received partial praise by even being included in the press release, but they simply did not make the cut of the coveted "Top Safety Pick" award.

    The IIHS has not tested every currently available model and so any conjecture that Toyota and Lexus make more unsafe vehicles than any other manufacturer (without qualification) is not correct because not every model currently on the market has been tested.

    Having said that, I do believe that the IIHS data would support the conjecture that Audi, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes all make very safe vehicles overall :)
  • shop123shop123 Member Posts: 15
    Glad to be of help. Although, you should take the chance; that way you can enjoy the driving experience before you crash and burn. ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    First we ourselves are accused as spin masters and now Reuters/Bloomberg or whoever printed that story are also anti-TMC spin masters.

    I hope this does not go to the World Court. I declare that I am innocent until proven guilty

    LOL

    Man, this forum sure lit up today. We need more studies for that day we all go to World Court... especially those studies that bring TMC down a notch in OVERALL ratings. ;)

    BTW, is it my imagination or did winter make an early sneak appearance this week?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Perhaps a one day lease with gap insurance?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sunny and 85 degrees.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You are on to something big there. Ultra short-term leases would be cool, IMO.
    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Seriously, I would love to be able to lease for 6 months.
    Two new cars a year sounds about right.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Low 60's here daytime, but nighttime is freakin 30's.

    Tampa sounds gooooooood, especially at night.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree. That would be so cool. I wouldn't have to keep taking these big hits on trading in too darned often. And, I could drive many more cars in my lifetime that I would love to drive.
    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Snow,10 degrees, 25 mph wind. I think it just stopped snowing. What a wierd storm. Total snow from 1 inch on the north side of KC to over a foot on the south side. About 6 inches at my house. Brrrr...

    Look out, the storm is heading north and east.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    As long as you don't go swimming in the lake filled with 'gators at 4AM like some lunatic did.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    No wonder you get grumpy. ;)
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Funny :D

    I don't think that the media has much of any anti-TMC bias. I would have also been offended if the same spin had been written about Audi, BMW, or Mercedes. None of these makes performed perfectly across-the-board in the IIHS tests, but the overall scores for each manufacturer are quite good.

    See:

    link title

    AND:

    link title

    (Vehicles are listed in order of performance in crash tests)

    According to the IIHS, the BMW 3-series and Mercedes E-Class also appear to be inches away from earning a "Top Safety Pick" award; but their scores are no better than the competing Lexus models that also just missed the mark.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Here's another spy shot of the Porsche Panamera.

    image

    It'll be a while before the REAL pic is out.

    TagMan
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Thank you very much for the kind words :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well the pics are getting better. That's the best one I've seen. The car may be a looker after all.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Is it just me, or does anyone else think they took a picture of the new G35?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Looks a lot like an old Honda Prelude. If only it could be that reliable...

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yikes, dhamilton thinks its a G35 and Houdini thinks its an old Prelude. When they release the thing, I sure hope it looks like a Porsche.
    TagMan
  • kmircarloverkmircarlover Member Posts: 1
    the BMW 7 could trump any of these cars if only it werent so UGLY. I mean, the freshening of the front and back were nice, but i still think the back looks frumpy, and the trunk looks hideous, like a table. The front end is gorgeous, but the side profile just doesn't look shapely enough, in my opinion. The BMW has all the right gadgetry, except iDrive of course, but the interior and exterior need a major redesign, to give it the beauty of an A8, or even an S-class.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    My apologies if this doesn't fit within the defined car scope here, but I thought I'd give it a shot as a former regular here :)

    I need comments from all HELC/HELM "experts".... Maybe its a mid-life crisis or something, but I'm considering ditching one of the rides at home for a vert... I don't want to spend more than $30K... Found a gorgeous low mile (25K miles) '03 330Ci w/SP (at $29K), but checked into a Boxter/S and found a mint blue/tan low-miler (25K miles) '03 Boxter S Tiptronic (for $35K). Yeah a little higher than my budget but the car is just so gorgeous....

    Tag, D-Man, etc... etc.... If you had $30K and wanted a vert, which of these two would you pick ? Any qualms with a Boxter ? What are the biggest issues on a Porsche ? Haven't driven the S yet, but that 330i w/SP looked and drove so well.... Hmmmmm....

    I must confess I have not researched these two cars yet, but figured I can get a very "unbiased" views from many of the regulars here....

    Thanks for your informed thoughts.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Okay, here's the 101 on how to make citations: go to the primary source whenever possible. Reuters/Bloomberg and other news organizations are in the business of selling eyeball time. If it takes spinning and counter-expectation headline to get eyeballs, so be it. Take for example, it's now 2:25am, the latest Bloomberg scrolling financial news reads "Gold declines in Asian Trading on Speculation Recent Rally Was Overdone" Really? Shall I take that headline at face value? Let me check the primary source, the live price chart off the spot market . . . hmm, the spot price is actually up from New York close at this very moment! So basicly, as the price goes up and down in a normal trading day on the other side of the globe, Bloomberg just grabbed a moment when it was marginally down to flash a headline that may attract attention. It's been a more or less flat trading day over there, but flat is not nearly as interesting or dramatic as either going up or going down :-)

    Likewise, news organizations put forth spins all the time in order to grab eyeball time. Gullibility at those sensationalistic headlines when primary source proving to the contrary is easily available does not contribute to a person's credibility.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Haven't driven the S yet

    oac, glad to see your post here for ANY reason.

    You had better drive that Boxster S (notice the spelling for future posting, my friend) with the Tiptronic.

    Here's my story and see if you can relate to this. I just bought a new Porsche 911 Carrera S Cabriolet this week.
    But it wasn't what I initially expected to buy. You see, I had already placed a deposit on the first "launch" Targa Carrera and it was equipped with a Tiptronic. I drove it, fully expecting to love it, but I did not love it. I hated the Tiptronic, and it was clear to me that the Tiptronic would betray my true desire for the 6-speed. In addition, I knew the sliding glass roof was not nearly close enough to the Cabriolet. So, I am thankful I drove it enough to know the truth, and I recommend you do the same thing. Needless to say, I purchased the 6-speed.

    Since the Boxster you are looking at is already a convertible, you're already good in that dept. But, I warn you, you MUST drive the Tiptronic before you even THINK about getting serious about that car. Do NOT be seduced by that Boxster's good looks, only to compromise on the tranny. Consider your every moment of driving experience and what you truly want it to be like.

    I LOVED my Boxster when I had it. Beautiful and wonderful car. I kept it for almost 7 years, the longest of ANY car I have ever owned except for one other. When I bought it, there was no such thing as an S model. And the S's extra power makes a terrific difference. The service on the car was reasonable enough and the drive was incredibly balanced with that mid-engine. Not quite like the current Cayman, but darned close. Truly first-rate handling. And I love the Boxster's exhaust howl that comes with upper rpm's in 2nd and 3rd gears. It's a song to my ears. You would not go wrong to get a Porsche Boxster in good condition. A truly wonderful car that delivers buckets of fun. (And a generous cargo capacity both front and back).

    If you need an automatic, and therefore must have the Tiptronic, then that becomes another consideration. But, if you do not need or strongly prefer an automatic, I strongly urge you to skip it... especially in a Porsche. Do not be impatient and cheat yourself. No deal is a good deal if you don't get what will make you truly happy.

    While I do know first-hand a lot about the Boxster, I can not not give you the same level of info on that 330Ci. Hopefully one of the other forum members can help you with that one.

    Good luck and I truly hope you will stop by here again sometime real soon. It's been too darned long since I've had a good old-fashioned disagreement with my left-coast friend. ;) Take care.

    TagMan
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    "The reality of monthly lease cost has long preceded the convergence of MSRP's. For some of these cars, MSRP's are nearly meaningless anyway."

    Good morning and good point, brightness04. Have you noticed the subsidized lease special on the 750i that is listed on the BMW USA website itself? A $75,695 vehicle is available for only $949 a month for 36 months with a $3500 down payment and a $950 security deposit for a grand total of $5399 due at signing (including first payment)! Here is the link:

    link title

    When I went to leasecompare.com, I was only able to bring the bank leasing qoutes down to $1291 monthly ($1246 monthly on a 39-month special) by putting $5400 down on a 36-month lease (not sure if the security deposit and first payment are included in the leasecompare.com calculations); with $3500 down, I managed to get $1348 ($1299 on a 39-month special). The main caveat is that an option for "10,000" miles a year is unavailable with the service; however, this will not reduce the quote to the $949 that BMW Financial Services is offering.

    From BMW USA website:
    "Monthly lease payments of $949.00 for 36 months based on MSRP of $75,695.00"
    (I also used MSRP when making my comparisons at leasecompare.com)

    Leasecompare.com
    link title

    The funniest thing, brightness04, is that the highest residual value for the 750i listed on leasecompare.com is $33,000 after a 36-month lease (we might could imagine that the residual value would be between $34,000 and $36,000 for 30,000 mile allowance vs. a 36,000 mile allowance). If you read the fine print on the special BMW 750i lease, you will see that the lease-end purchase value is $46,174. This means that after 36-months, BMW will want the lessee to pay $46,174 plus taxes to take ownership of the vehicle when the ALG expects the vehicle to be worth roughly $33000 (perhaps up to $36,000 for a 30,000-mile vehicle); leasecompare.com gets residual values from the ALG. Since no sensible person will submit to this, BMW will somehow have to eat up to $13,000 or more of this discrepancy at auction/resell time.

    As an additional tidbit, BMW is also offering competitive deals on the 530i and 328i:

    530i - $469 monthly for 36 months/$2500 down/$500 security deposit/$3469 due at lease signing/$49470 MSRP/$31,166 lease-end value/$26219 ALG residual
    link title

    328i - $369 monthly for 36 months/$2500 down/$400 security deposit/$3269 due at lease signing/$34370 MSRP/$21997 lease-end value/$18904 ALG residual
    link title
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    It appears to me that Reuters and Bloomberg in their sloppy reporting looked at the IIHS press release and assumed that the list at the bottom right is a list of the worst performing rear-impact vehicles. That just isn't so, as a careful reading of the release should make clear:

    "These vehicles earned good ratings in front and side crash tests. They have electronic stability control, standard or optional....

    Acceptable rear protection
    Audi A3
    BMW 3-series 4dr
    Lexus IS 250/350

    Marginal rear protection
    Acura TL
    Honda Odyssey
    Lexus ES 350
    Lexus GS 350
    Toyota Camry
    Toyota FJ Cruiser
    Toyota Prius
    Toyota RAV4

    Poor rear protection
    Honda Accord 4dr
    Infiniti M35
    Nissan Quest
    Toyota Avalon
    Toyota Sienna"


    Ask yourself why the MB C-class has only "acceptable" rear crashworthiness, yet doesn't appear in the press release? Answer: because the C had only an acceptable side crashworthiness rating. It is WORSE in overall crashworthiness than the A3/3/IS.

    So in summary, the list of cars on the bottom right of the IIHS list is not a list of the very worst rear crashworthiness vehicles. It is a list of the otherwise (meaning front and side) very safe cars, that were poor in rear crashworthiness.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Exactly ;)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Isn't is overall safety that matters most, not one narrow aspect?

    Posted earlier from IIHS:

    The ratings of OVERALL crash safety in their "large luxury cars" category:

    1. Audi A6
    2. Lexus GS
    3. Infiniti M35/M45
    4. Mercedes E class
    5. Cadillac DTS
    6. Volvo S80
    7. BMW 5 series
    8. Acura RL
    9. Lincoln Town Car
    10. Cadillac CTS
    11. Cadillac STS

    And for their "midsize luxury/near luxury cars":

    1. Audi A4
    2. Saab 9-3
    3. Lexus IS
    4. BMW 3 series
    5. Lexus ES 350
    6. Acura TL
    7. Volvo S60
    8. Mercedes C class
    9. Saab 9-5
    10. Acura TSX
    11. Lincoln MKZ
    12. Jaguar X-Type

    Of the sedan brands we talk about most on this forum, it seems to me that the overall rankings would therefore be

    1. Audi
    2. Lexus
    3. BMW
    4. MB
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'll second what houdini1 said: Welcome to the forum! Your analysis is thoughtful and well-reasoned.

    I'll share with you that when I first started posted here years ago, I sometimes got VERY frustrated by the totally illogical, poor reasoning that I occaisionally came across. Eventually I mellowed out. I take it as a challenge to try to sort of straighten people out, but don't get too frustrated if they won't listen (as is very common).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Welcome back, I hope its for good.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. It will look like a true Porsche; a real stunner!

    Remember this simple axiom:
    Don't rely too heavily on the judgment of someone who lives in a snowy area during the winter! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sure and I could have been Robert Redford if only I didn't have dark hair and look like Walter Brennan.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    welcome, what about a Honda S2000? I know being a Lexus guy, you value reliability. There is a guy named Habitat on some of the other boards that will tell you the difference between the two isn't neccisarily worth the extra price for the Boxster.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Thank you very much :)
    I certainly see that logical reasoning is not a strong suit of the group - but they may come in time. The reasoning that is somtimes employed in this forum is certainly no worse than the elementary-level garbage that is too often used by my fellow Texans :D
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    The insults fly early in the morning.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, putting the $2500 back into the lease over the 36 months since it represents a cap. cost reduction and adding tax brings the monthly payment of the 530i closer to $590. Still good, but not the $469 quoted.

    Similarly, the 750i would be closer to $1150 per month and the 328i would be closer to $475 per month, not the respective $949 and $369.

    The important thing about leasing is NOT to put any money down up front to reduce the monthly payment and still walk away with a good deal.

    For example, I leased a $60,000 2005 545i for $673 for 36 months with no money down.
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