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  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Dewey, with all due respect this survey merely confirms what we all already knew.

    Just passing along info Houdini. It wasn't necessarily meant for you. If you have no interest then I would suggest that you ignore it. :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OK Howard and DrFill,

    which one below is the true performance enthusiast and which one is the poseur?

    A) The person who is in denial that a DSG can outshift him with a manual tranny?
    B) The person who picks DSG in order to get the best performance possible?

    I guess the answer is obvious, dont you think?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I agree with most of their choices, but they lost me on Ford's 4.6L SOHC Mustang\truck engine. How is that best anything? Its crude, and makes a pathetic amount of power for its size. Since when does being dirt cheap to produce make an engine "best"?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I meant the big 3 in brand satisfaction even though technically you are of course correct, it is the big two.

    I'm waiting to see the reports of the owners of the new MDX in about 6 months. Right now, it's still a bit early as I wait out the euphoria stage.

    I will skip the one Isuzu and the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara which was rated by CR recently at a dismal "17." I don't believe I have ever seen a vehicle rated that poorly.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A) The person who is in denial that a DSG can outshift him with a manual tranny?
    B) The person who picks DSG in order to get the best performance possible?

    I don't think thats really it. Even Porsche admits that the Tiptronic 911 Turbo is faster than the MT version. That doesn't mean that those who choose to buy the MT are "in denial".

    Consider hydraulic vs. fly-by-wire flight controls. Keeping a P-38 in the air was 100% pilot skill. Modern jet fighters are flown by computers, with the stick serving as a pointing device. How many pilots of today's fighters could pull a P-38 out of a spin or stall?

    Driving with a MT is like that. Yes SMGs and even some manumatics can shift faster, but there's satisfaction in you rather than the computers doing the work.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Heh, heh, heh!! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    A CVT can outshift me! That doesn't mean I'm gonna drive it, or it's the appropriate transmission for a sports car.

    Corvettes weren't created to be mated to an automatic transmission.

    To defend sloth or laziness, you better be Johnnie Cochran, reincarnated. I'm no Marcia Clark! ;)

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Audi AG 2L turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3)
    BMW AG 3L DOHC I-6 (Z4 3.0si)
    BMW AG 3L turbocharged DOHC I-6 (335i)
    DaimlerChrysler AG 3L DOHC V-6 turbodiesel (Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec/Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD)
    DaimlerChrysler AG Hemi 5.7L OHV V-8 (Chrysler 300C)
    Ford Motor Co. Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX)
    Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8 (Mustang GT/Mustang Shelby GT)
    Mazda Motor Corp. 2.3L DISI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Mazdaspeed3)
    Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Infiniti G35)
    Toyota Motor Corp. 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Lexus IS 350)

    This list is a bunch of %&$#!

    NEITHER of the Ford engines should be thur! The 3.5 because since THE LAST GENERATION Altima had similar power, and the Nissan and Toyota 3.5 easily overpower it. The 4.6 because it's just less efficient, and only as powerful as the 3.5 in the Nissan and Toyota! Plus it's crude in comparison.

    This list should be kept to naturally-aspirated only. Not even the Prius' engine should make it.

    Here's my list:

    G35 3.5 (306HP, MT or AT)
    Dodge HEMI SRT-8 (Many vehicles, 425HP, 6.1L)
    Vette Z06 (7.0L 505HP, lightweight, 0-60 in 3.3)
    BMW 3.0 (255HP)
    Lexus LS460 (380HP from 4.6L, matching 5.5L)
    Mercedes BlueTec Diesel
    Ferrari 4.3 (483HP, 5-valves per cylinder)
    Honda S2000 (240HP out of 2.2L)
    2007 Toyota Tundra (381HP, 400+ lbs.ft from 5.7L)
    Mazda RX-8 Rotory (1.3L, 238HP)

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I don't think turbo or supercharged engines should be kept off the list, but listing the BMW 3.0L twice (with turbo and without) is kind of lame. I do agree about the Duratec 35, Ford shouldn't be given an award for finally making a somewhat competitive V6 5 years too late.

    Mazda's 2.3L turbo is more sophisticated than the rotary, and just a better engine overall. The rotary has very anemic torque (worse than the S2000 I think) and it guzzles oil like its going out of style.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    lexusguy - you will also appreciate this.

    You and I briefly chatted about this improvement much earlier in the year, and it has finally happened.

    link title

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I read about that in Motor Trend, apparently the reason it took so long is because they had to redesign the front to handle the front mounted autobox. Hopefully this will mean increased sales for Maserati.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Here's DrFill's list:

    G35 3.5 (306HP, MT or AT)
    Dodge HEMI SRT-8 (Many vehicles, 425HP, 6.1L)
    Vette Z06 (7.0L 505HP, lightweight, 0-60 in 3.3)
    BMW 3.0 (255HP)
    Lexus LS460 (380HP from 4.6L, matching 5.5L)
    Mercedes BlueTec Diesel
    Ferrari 4.3 (483HP, 5-valves per cylinder)
    Honda S2000 (240HP out of 2.2L)
    2007 Toyota Tundra (381HP, 400+ lbs.ft from 5.7L)
    Mazda RX-8 Rotory (1.3L, 238HP)

    No biturbo BMW engine on your list?

    This is the introduction of the very first straight six with twin turbos . This engine produces the level of responsiveness that has never been witnessed in any other turbo. Unlike other turbos this 3.0L biturbo runs as smooth as a regular BMW i6. The biturbo generates V8 power with the fuel efficiency of a BMW i6. And last but not least due to its two turbochargers this engine does not have the time lag that other turbos have. In fact based on my own personal experience time/turbo lag is practically non-existent.

    Quite a phenemonal engine IMO. Especially when your consider the true performance specs of this engine. It has been proven by several reviewers to be far more superior than indicated by BMW official figures. Which makes this engine more superior than both the Infiniti and Lexus 3.5L engines on the Ward's List.

    BMW could have built an engine with more displacement and higher fuel consumption but instead it chose build a sophistacated fuel efficient lighter engine that can generate oodles of power.

    Impressive indeed!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Probably the main reason I own BMWs is because of their availability with sticks. But maybe in the future I may own a car with a DSG or a much "improved and better SMG "tranny then what is currently available.

    My initial point was that calling someone a poseur because he is impressed with the way a DSG shifts does not at all make him a poseur.

    No DrFill in this case your argument does not resemble Marcia Clark's. Your Top 10 List is another matter altogether ;)

    Oh and by the way I found out why there are no HELC engines on Ward's List. To qualify a car with a listed engine cannot have a price above $52K.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    This is the introduction of the very first straight six with twin turbos . This engine produces the level of responsiveness that has never been witnessed in any other turbo.

    Uh, whose first I6 turbo? BMW's? If you mean world's first, I'm sure the Supra TT will have something to say about that. The old 2.8L Skyline GT-R engine was also a twin turbo straight six.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    What a bummer!

    This could've very well beent the car sitting in my garage instead of the S8(maybe, maybe not).

    Finally, an Automatic. Maseratti should know that we pesky Yankees love our big cars to be extra-smooth, and introducing the DuoSelect as the only tranny choice only added to the problems.

    The ZF is probably the best 6-speed on the market right now. They couldn't have made a better choice.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    , whose first I6 turbo? BMW's? If you mean world's first, I'm sure the Supra TT will have something to say about that. The old 2.8L Skyline GT-R engine was also a twin turbo straight six

    OK let me clarify.

    The first TT straight-six with high precision fuel injection and an all-aluminium crankcase. Is there any engine that fits that description?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The first TT straight-six with high precision fuel injection and an all-aluminium crankcase. Is there any engine that fits that description?

    Not that I know of. Both the Toyota 2JZ-GTE and Nissan RB26DETT engines were iron block\aluminum head SOHC, without any kind of VVT system or exotic fuel injection.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Does the Twin-Turbo L6 keep the innovative magnesium heads?

    I still think the BMW 3.0L is arguably one of the best engines of any make.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    No it is aluminum since magnesium is a lighter metal that is not as suitable for a biturbo engine.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Not only is the answer obvious Dewey, but your right on the money retort in post# 21926 totally cracked me up! :D
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That does it. Gotta have the 335i coupe! :shades:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The first TT straight-six with high precision fuel injection and an all-aluminium crankcase. Is there any engine that fits that description?

    Dewey, I agree the TT engine is deserving, and while not on the Doc's list currently, it might earn its way there over more time.

    One thing for sure, you are mighty impressed with the engine! It's a winner, alright. ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    To qualify a car with a listed engine cannot have a price above $52K.

    That explains a LOT.

    TagMan
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Well, I really do enjoy standing out. Case in point, Sprint Blue. I won't get more than $35K on it if I sell it in two years, but gosh, my S4 is beautiful. Grey, silver black- all so boring in comparison.

    I did, however, see a dark grey A8L the other day. It really caught my eye. It's handsome in all colors- but I think grey is very cool, if not the best. Of course, she doesn't like grey. Oh, well...

    I guess green will have to do. It's no British Racing Green (we were looking at the XJ before), but I don't think that we'll be at much of a loss, because the A8 is undoubtedly a better car than the XJ8. You have to really want the retro looks.

    Everyone, thanks for the advice. I'll put it to good use.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    No price limit, naturally-aspirated ONLY.

    I hear you can hit a lot of home runs when you're on "The Clear" or The Cream". :surprise:

    Give me a boost, and I can slam on anybody!

    You'd be "Posterized"! ;)

    DrFill
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    My list:

    Infiniti 3.5L 306hp
    BMW 3.0TT 300hp
    Audi 2.0T 200-240hp (in other markets)
    Mercedes-Benz Blutec (E320)
    Audi 4.2L 420hp (RS4)
    Lexus 3.5L 306hp
    Porsche 3.6L 480hp (911 Turbo)
    Nissan 3.5L 270hp
    Subaru 2.5T 250hp
    Chrysler 5.7L 425hp (SRT8)

    IMO.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Folks, we're veering way off the high-end path again. Let's bring it back home.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    hpowders - I've found your next car for your 2-year lease. It will be available in March with the new Twin Turbo

    Here it is, my friend:

    link title

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Doc, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus will sell a ton of cars this month so your theory about Lexus being able to do so because of their commercials isn't true in the least.

    Secondly just because they commercials are on all the time and get peoples attention doesn't mean they aren't lame because they are. Go the News and Views thread and look under the commercials board, Lexus is mentioned every year around this time as the most annoying holiday commercials going.

    You really have to drink the Lexus kool aid to think that those awful commercials are moving the product and not the special deals.

    Everyone will sell a jillion cars this month, not just Lexus. Yes MB/BMW would need help, or hire a new advertising firm to come up commercials so droll.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for that information, Tag.

    Deliciously complicates my choice: twin-turbos? diesels? 4.8 L X5 to please the boss? (Anything but an MDX!)

    Whichever BMW I decide on, I do believe I will go with the color in the photo. Very nice. I have had silver cars for too long.
    It's starting to affect my hair color. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Lexus is mentioned every year around this time as the most annoying commercials going."

    Yeah. I dread December TV watching with the inevitable "December to Remember" Lexus commercials. Hopefully my next TV will have a filter which I can program to recognize such annoyances (like a spam filter) and spare me my displeasure.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah. I dread December TV watching with the inevitable "December to Remember" Lexus commercials. Hopefully my next TV will have a filter which I can program to recognize such annoyances (like a spam filter) and spare me my displeasure.

    I really don't like them either. Ordinary Lexus commercials are generally very good and very memorable ("dimpled panels" "robot fingers" "retractable roof building") even the new "wine glasses" one is ok, not great since it advertises probably the least useful part of the new car, but its still much better than these goofy sales event commercials.

    The one area where I think traditional Lexus commercials fail is when they talk about the IS and GS. They still don't know quite how to sell performance yet. Even the "something wicked" way back in '98 was better than what I've seen for the new GS.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I think I'll get a Spin Filter!

    Do you think Lexus has been doing those commercials for 6 years because they weren't working?

    Not only have they boosted sales in December, but they've even built a cottage industry for those Mega Bows that are put on the cars.

    If I have time, I'll find the article that shows how the commercials success have not only raised the Art-of-the-Sale iduring the holidays, but influenced how other HELMs do business during the holidays. :surprise:

    Stay tuned! ;)

    Everyone will sell a jillion cars this month, not just Lexus.

    Comparing everyone's sales numbers to Lexus' is, at best, a reach. I expect better from you, Merc. When it comes to sales, there's Lexus, then everyone else.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-12-22-christmas-cars_x.htm?csp=34

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Even so, the Lexus commercials look like works of genius compared to those Cadillac free nav. spots. Ugh!
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    LG, I can talk to you about this, as the concept of auto advertising won't go over your head.

    Problem for Lexus is they've set the bar too high. They can only be compared to themselves.

    Nothing will compare to the original LS commercials, or the 1992 SC commercial, and the MacBeth-themed GS commercials were excellent. The current GS commercials have followed the car into mediocrity.

    The current campaign commercials are cute (Too cute?), but are very effective and successful. In effect, they are a lot like the Lexus vehicles themselves.

    If some people want to talk about dread, let's talk about when the Germans dredge up a commercial. That's why I keep fresh batteries in my remote. ;)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "BMW ads show a car driving down a street and pulling into a driveway. Along the way, holiday lawn decorations have followed the vehicle home."

    As the Guinness brothers would say, "Brilliant!!!" :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Automobile Magazine selects their favorite cars for 2007.

    Oops there is one car missing? Where is the Lexus LS460?
    Oh well at least they did not forget the MB S Class and Aston Martin V8 Vantage ;)

    2007 Automobile Magazine All-Stars

    2007 BMW 3-Series
    2007 Chrysler 300C
    2007 Honda Ridgeline
    2007 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
    2007 Mazda3
    2007 Lotus Elise
    Aston Martin V8 Vantage
    2007 Infiniti G35
    2007 Porsche Cayman
    2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If some people want to talk about dread, let's talk about when the Germans dredge up a commercial. That's why I keep fresh batteries in my remote

    Why?

    Is it because German ads focus more on the exciting features of their cars . Is it because their ads do not focus enough on Moments, robots, mega-bows and wine glasses?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That does it. Gotta have the 335i coupe!

    Yesterday a 335i. The day before that a Lexus GS. Today a non-silver 535i and maybe tomorrow a turbodiesel.

    Decisions, decisions, decisions?

    I know the feeling. I have a roving eye for almost every tailpipe that passes by me. Except unlike you I intend to wait another six to seven years until I buy a new car :(

    Sometime the chase is better than the catch.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    No, it's just hard to see thru all that brake dust. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    All of those vehicles have graduated to the high-end class now? ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Well who knows maybe after-tomorrow it will be a Lexus LS or another HELC as defined by this forum? ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Doc,
    Just so happens my major in college (didn't mean to shock ya' ;) ) was in advertising of all things.

    Those Lexus ads work for sure, so you are darned right about it. You'll get no argument from me on that.

    But successful ads can still be disliked ads. Why? Because its more about retention and motivation. Plenty of folks are retaining the info in those Lexus ads, and are sufficiently motivated by them to actually make the purchases. From that standpoint, those ads are highly successful.

    You are right, sir.

    And I can't wait for January to stop seeing them. ;)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You didn't just call German car commercials exciting did you. "Exciting" features should make for an exciting commercial, no?

    Life is about exciting moments, not exciting features. Which is the main point behind Lexus' successful commercials.

    Tag

    Wow! That post was so good, I can drop the subject right now! :surprise: Great job, Tag!

    Hopefully, as a post-grad, you will be teaching Rebuttals 101 at the Learning Annex.

    I can't wait to stop seeing those commercials either.

    As it will mean I was able to slide through another year happy and healthy :P

    And have witnessed one more year of Lexus dominance.

    :)

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If some people want to talk about dread, let's talk about when the Germans dredge up a commercial. That's why I keep fresh batteries in my remote.

    They aren't all bad. VW's short lived "Fast" campaign was really stupid, but I have to admit that I laughed when I first saw the "Un-pimp mein auto" ads. I'm not the type that normally laughs at commercials. The new Rabbit commercials are just average.

    Mercedes has done some really stellar commercials like "Falling in love again", and also some really lousy ones, like the most recent C and E class ads. I've never seen a C-class driver attempt a "burn out" in real life. (Is a C230 even capable of that?)

    Same for BMW. Their ad for X-drive with the angels floating under each wheel was brilliant (Audi, hello, anybody home?), but the "independent company of ideas" ads reminded me of a fluff piece for somebody like UBS or GE. Yawn.

    Audi's and Acura's are both really awful, in one ear and out the other.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag

    Wow! That post was so good, I can drop the subject right now! Great job, Tag!

    Well, that's just the way it really is... I have nothing to do with it.

    one more year of Lexus dominance.

    One thing here, though, Doc.

    I suppose you are referring to "sales numbers".

    When you look at the consumer marketplace, there are MANY products that are the number one sellers, as you and I both know, that aren't worth the time of day.

    That "dominance" you speak of means nothing.

    The number one selling food in a category may actually be bad for your health! Is it better?

    The number one-selling deodorant just may be leaving a lot of stink unattended to. Is it better?

    Bill Gates' Windows OS is the number one seller over the Apple OS. Is it more stable, less virus-prone, and does it operate better? NO, but it sure "dominates".

    See ya later. :D

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, but no Lexus?

    Time to get a 3 year subscription. :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Today, Tag made it even more complex, showing me that a twin-turbo 535i is on the way. Plus the diesels from MB and BMW are coming soon, preceded by rave reviews across the pond.

    I'm pretty lucky about the timing of my 545i lease expiration.
    There are so many fantastic choices either out there now or coming soon, that I will only lease for 2 years or shorter (if they allow it). I want to experience as many of these great vehicles as I can.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW, MB and Lexus should hire the advertising folks from the beer and alcohol guys-Guinness, Miller and Bud; IMO, the most creative people in the TV ad business. I'm sure they can come up with something better than "walk straight ahead, turn left, destination ahead." :surprise:

    I have never seen a car spot that is anywhere near as entertaining as the beer spots consistently are.
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