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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • whahappanwhahappan Member Posts: 69
    Yes, many European countries tax diesel less than gas which is in effect a subsidy, but as I understand it diesel is easier/cheaper to refine in the first place, so it's a complicated question.
    One of the reasons it's more expensive in the winter here in the US is because diesel is almost identical to home heating oil, which is in greater demand in the winter.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Even running 87 octane at that rate has the diesel about $7 ahead. That adds up quickly over a few years of ownership.

    That last line is a joke. Based on the author's figures saving $7 every 740 miles translates into saving $700 for the first 74,000 miles of driving. Whoopy Dooo! Is this what the author calls quick savings :confuse:

    Higher relative diesel prices in North America versus Europe is not only due to subsidies but also due to diesel refiniing capacity being more constrained on our side of the ocean.

    My three favorite cars during 2006 is the MB 320 Blutec, Lexus GS450H and the BMW 335i twinturbo. All three are my favorites because of the novelty of their engines. Unfortunately diesel prices IMO diminishes the importance of the Blutec Benz in North America. And unfortunately the trunk space of the GS450H diminishes its importance as a serious mid size luxury sedan.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    esf,

    IMO the twin turbo engine itself is worth the price tag of a BMW 335i. On top of the engine you get fantastic handling and an interior that is vastly improved when compared to older BMW models.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually that Benz concept came first, in the late '60s. It was called the C111, and had a rear-mounted Wankel rotary engine. A real oddball to say the least.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Even you should know how silly it is to conclude that the Maybach had a "misfire" and you don't know squat about the accident itself.

    Yes I've seen cars get ripped like that and their airbags didn't go off with the passengers standing at the side of the road.

    Cars are concieved and manufactured by people. They are mechanical marvels with thousands of parts. They are not perfect and sometimes there is a defect. The concept should not be that hard to grasp.

    Likewise if you don't know what makes an airbag fire in the first place (your words, not mine) then I guess that you haven't a clue about this shouldn't be too hard for me to grasp either.

    What I also grasp is that the only reason we're having this conversation is because it was a Mercedes-Benz product involved. Period. If it was a Lexus we'd hear about about how strong the body was and how it absorbed the energy from the impact and that is why the airbags didn't fire.

    Again, if you don't know what makes an airbag fire how in the world do you know it should have fired here?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I have never, ever seen so much whinning over a comparo. Now people are claiming to know many editors and how they're such an expert in the publishing industry so they're qualified to say the review was a joke. Knowing editors for non-automotive publications and being in the publishing industry has what exactly to do with testing cars?

    Yes, Car and Driver, the home of more LS400 and LS430 wins than anywhere else is now clueless, biased and most of all part of some conspiracy theory to dump on Lexus.

    Gee, the SL550 won a comparo, the S550 won a comparo, and in the Feb issue the E63 AMG beat the M5 and S6. Mercedes-Benz, uh...DCX must being paying the editors the most now because these cars can't possibly be the best in their respective classes, especially the SL.

    The LS430 was better than the LS460L so the LS460L should have creamed the competition. This would apply to the BMW, Jaguar and Audi, not a brand new Mercedes-Benz S-Class. Can't get an explanation for that or an acknowledgement that maybe, just maybe the S-Class moved the game on.

    This is the most classic case you'll ever see of living by the sword and dying by the sword. How can same magazine from brilliant to idiotic so fast? Did they change editors? I don't get it.

    That said, I'm sure there will be a comparo by someone that will put the LS460L on top at some point. Maybe based on a lower priced model with the sportiest suspension setup. Oh and a production model, not a pre-production model.

    Remember Car and Driver is being accused of trying to hide this little fact because they didn't use as much ink to tell the readers about it as they did in informing the readers that the A8 was a 2006 model. This is such nonsense it isn't even funny.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Would Lexus have released a pre-production LS 460 vehicle to C&D for testing unless it was reasonably sure it was an accurate representation of the actual production vehicle?
    They would have to be insane if it wasn't.


    Bingo! Yet there is utter silence when you point out that nearly every other time a LS won a comparo it was a pre-production model. How else does a magazine get a hold of a car months in advance in order to time the story with the car's actual release for sale?

    You mean to tell me Lexus didn't check this LS460L out for defects before handing it over?

    If you notice through out the history of C&D comparos this type of comparo comes up right around the time a new LS is released.

    The real kicker is that if this pre-production LS460L had won the comparo we'd be hearing about how superior Lexus is. Supplying a pre-production car that wiped the matt with the competition.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The real kicker is that if this pre-production LS460L had won the comparo we'd be hearing about how superior Lexus is. Supplying a pre-production car that wiped the matt with the competition.

    Personally, I don't really get what the big deal is. The guys in charge of the latest C&D HELC comparo were clearly looking for something that the LS460 does not possess, and because of that it lost. They didn't say it was a terrible car. If you are looking for driving excitement, look elsewhere. That sums up the LS400, the LS430, the LS460, and I have to assume that it will sum up the 2013 LS500.

    The LS460 is better than the car it replaces. If you love the LS (to the extent that you can love a car like the LS, anyway), that should really be enough, shouldn't it? Its C&D, not The Bible. Those stopping distances are a little worrying, but I don't recall seeing 200+ foot distances anywhere else, so that could have something to do with C&D's particular testing. I could be wrong about that.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't really take issue with anything you're saying, but I just don't get this about C&D being so brilliant one minute and idiots the next, the conspiracy theories, and so on. Every single review that doesn't put the car in the best light possible is deemed to have been written by clueless editors, while a review by Cnet is taken to be gospel. Something is wrong if you have to turn to a non-automotive publication for the best reviews on a car.

    I think the pre-production status is what caused the long braking distances.

    Mind you all of this is for those who used to boast about how the LS400 and LS430 whipped the competition oh so many times in years past, not you.

    Some say C&D was looking for the sportiest car. That isn't true either otherwise the BMW or Audi would have won. They picked the car that was the best all arounder, IMO. We all know the Audi and BMW can be driven like sports cars, but the lack that ride that a lot of luxury car buyers like, especially the A8 (according to some magazines) The S is able to deliver that "ride" with better handling than the LS and that is what puts it over.

    Truth be told I actually like this LS more than even the 1993-1994 LS400 (my previous favorite LS). I like the interior shots making their rounds in all the mag advertisments and the car does indeed set a new standard for Lexus styling out on the road. I rode next to a white LS460L the other day, dare I say it was actually good looking for a Lexus. The pipes coming through the rear bumper is nice touch, but I take it Lexus has tested this to make sure they don't melt anything.

    Actually it was a LS460L, a Bentley Continental Flying Brick, a CLS550, S500, 3-Series, and me (CLK430) all sitting in 2 lanes waiting at a light. I live the wrong area.

    M
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Mr. merc1, I actually think you are being rather reasonable here. The only thing I take issue with you on is your statement "every single review that doesn't put the car in the best light possible is deemed to have been written by clueless editors, while a review by Cnet is taken to be the gospel". I don't think that most of us LS fans are saying that all magazine reviews that do not paint a favorable picture of the new LS are clueless. However, I truly believe that C & D could have done a much more professional job in this review. To me and some others, they were extremely sneaky in not pointing out in bold black and white that this was a pre-production model. In fact, they did not even use a hyphen in the word, probably as an attempt to hide it as much as possible. On the other hand, most of us agree that the Cnet review probably went too far the other way. Let's face it. If THE best handling car is your cup of tea, then by all means go with the S550 or BMW. However, I would venture to guess that the majority of us "joe blow" drivers could not care less about THE best handling vehicle. Instead, we look for other qualities such as comfort, technological advancements, fuel economy, environmental concerns, etc., etc.

    Again, I appreciate your honest attempt to be fair. This is in stark contrast to some others (will not name names but you can well guess) on this board.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    All true. When you bring up significant questions like: would Lexus send a pre-production LS to C&D for testing that is significantly different than the production model in driveability? or, if the LS won the comparo with a pre-production model, would the same folks now calling foul be pointing out that hey, you know, it may have not won if a production model was supplied instead? What about the other vehicles in these comparos? Aren't pre-production models supplied for these tests all the time? If they weren't, how are the auto mags. supposed to test them in a timely manner?

    No. It is more convenient for some to resort to name-calling as one recently did, calling me a "troll." When you don't like what you hear or don't have the intellectual capacity to respond, resort to name-calling. Nice.

    Folks, if you have nothing to debate, please ignore my posts. I consider myself way too :shades: to get involved in stuff like that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Regarding your ridiculous and paranoid "observation" that C&D purposely didn't highlight that the LS tested was a pre-production model:

    What difference does it make? Auto manufacturers send pre-production models for testing all the time. How else would the auto mags get their reviews off in a timely manner?

    Do you think the LS that won a previous C&D comparo wasn't a pre-production model? I didn't hear anyone at that time asking if it was a pre-production model that won.

    Do you think a manufacturer in its right mind would send a pre-production vehicle for testing that was significantly different in driveability than the production model?

    Face the truth. Let go of the state of denial. The new LS came in a dismal last in the comparo. If the average "Joe Blow" doesn't care about spending a fortune for mediocre brakes and steering, then that's his problem. The rest of us will continue to buy or lease MB, Audi and BMW.

    Also stop with the insinuations. You want to discuss cars, then do so. Please leave out that you will "not name names."
    This is a place to discuss cars. It is not the Spanish Inquisition.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I also don't know the technical aspects of how my computer works...but I know IF it is working or not. Don't try to hang your hat on a statement I made about not knowing how an airbag is set off, that's REALLY silly.

    I certainly know WHEN an airbag should go off and when a $200K+ car is totalled in a front end collision the airbag should deploy. That is my opinion and I think it is very reasonable. Your attempted brow beating won't change it. Now get over it.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You of all people here should never remind anyone about name calling. Enough said!

    BTW, no I don't believe that the other vehicles tested were pre-production models. The S550 for example has been out for a long time. The LS460L testing was done on August 29. The official release of the LS was about 2 months later. I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model. They knew that this car would be a huge hit no matter what the reviews said.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model. They knew that this car would be a huge hit no matter what the reviews said."

    Well that's all well and good for Lexus corporate. Too bad that attitude hasn't filtered down to the Lexus faithful posters on these boards who are coming up with such creative excuses to wish away the last place finish in the C&D comparo.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    we should be talking about the cars and the reviews, but we do not need to be criticizing other posters.

    There's some eggnog and cookies on the table over there. Everyone help yourself!

    And go ahead and spike it, if you want - as they say, it's gotta be 5 o'clock somewhere. ;)
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    I couldn't agree with you more hpowders. What does it exactly mean a pre-production car anyway? I am sure that Lexus would put up a car as close to production as possible considering that it is attempting to challenge the icons of th HELM class. I think the results are what they are. I could as a staunch Audi supporter argue that the comparo was not fair to Audi as they used a "2006" version of the A8L and not the 2007 A8L with the new 350 bhp V8. The results might have easily been different considering that the S-Class won by one point (and a dubios one point at that). But, I willing the let the results stand as I am sure there will be plenty more in the future. No conspiracies here.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Many vehicles tested by the auto magazines are "pre-production" out of necessity. How can they test vehicles in a timely manner if they are not?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Gee, and in the Feb issue the E63 AMG beat the M5 and S6.

    That cant be? Impossible! That M5 must have been a pre-productiong model. And if it wasn't the case then that M5 may not have been a representative model. ANd if that is not the case then the C & D editorials' objectivity must have been tarnished somehow by MB. And if that is not the case then.............. ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Howard,

    the fact of the matter is this: The new LS is not earning the kind of glowing reviews that many had expected here.

    Have you read the LS CNET review ?

    Most of the review was raving about LS gizmos on the dashboard. Not much was mentioned on the way the car drives (how many Lexus owners really do care anyways ?)

    Those LS gizmos are meant for one and only purpose: To keep the driver entertained enough so he doesn't fall into snooze mode. Otherwise imagine the road hazards involved ? :)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    There is a reason why some units are called "pre-production models." A typical manufacturing production run has "bathtub curve" for defect rate. Pre-production models are made by the manufacturer in the testing out of the production process. It most likely have more defects than what the mfr thinks is acceptable for a production run.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Isn't that what HELC's are for? For canyon carving, smaller models from the same manufacter, regardless whether you worship Lexus, BMW or MB, do a much better job. HELC are "fancy" cars purchased for their "fanciness."
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “… I truly believe that C&D could have done a much more professional job in this review. To me and some others, they were extremely sneaky in not pointing out in bold black and white that this was a pre-production model. In fact, they did not even use a hyphen in the word, probably as an attempt to hide it as much as possible.”

    I’m not going to dispute the results beyond casual observation because placement in reviews just aren’t that important to me, plus comparos are not very scientific to begin with. I look for facts and details that suit my personal preferences. I suggest doing the same and ignore the annoying and repetitious taunting.

    One of the problems that arises in the disagreements in these forums is that people often make questionable statements and I include myself. I think your comment above qualifies even though I agree that C&D should have noted the fact more prominently that the Lexus 460L was a preproduction model. They also should have elaborated somewhat about it. However, to me this seems perfectly consistent with other aspects of the comparo that seem “unprofessional” such as the reporting of weight, gas mileage, results involving different drivers and a lot of the results being purely subjective.

    But when you say they were probably being sneaky by citing failure to hyphenate “preproduction”, you undermine your argument. For the record, the word is proper with or without the hyphen and the more common usage is without it.

    Now, I don’t know what goes on in automotive publishing with regard to editorial policy and how it relates to advertising, either covert or overt. However that comparo shows signs of being dubious enough to question the quality of the test iteself and perhaps even professionalism, but NOT with regard to the possibility of them being sneaky about anything. If a mag wants to be sneaky, I would think they could easily tamper with performance results to satisfy agendas. We’ll never know what the truth is but I believe the rags and their procedures are all subject to the same scrutiny. They aren’t scientific studies, far from it.

    With regard to the brakes. If the LS was fresh out of the box, I think this might have affected the brake results because brakes need time to seat—another reason why the mags should report such things, not only C&D.

    Lastly, the LS460 is not a review star, the S550 is, and it does not appear that this will change much so I would just shrug it off. I know when I want a car for my own reasons, I don’t give a flying fajita what the reviews say beyond what I explained earlier, just as many people who bought BMWs did when they got pimp slapped in the reviews, much of which was due to iDrive and styling. They bought them based on their preferences just as Lexus buyers do, all for very understandable reasons, the reviews be damned.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Or, the rankings are purely subjective :-) Come on, we are talking about people making $30-50k a year testing cars that have price tags 3 times their take-home pay (in other words, cars that they would never buy themselves or keep one on regular basis) and trying to make some sort of judgement. Get real. Rags are not bibles.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I highly recommend the Garmin Nuvi 360.

    Yeah I've run into that name quite often lately. I have a lot of questions but I guess this isn't the place. I will look into it. Thanks.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Thank you for your professional and honest response. I stand corrected on the hyphen, non hyphen argument in the word pre-production. I agree with almost everything you state. On a previous post I indicated that most of us, "Joe blow" drivers could not care less about driving THE best handling car. No one denying that the S550 or BMW are better handling than the LS460. Most of us are more concerned about comfort, technological advancements, fuel economy, environmental concerns, safety, etc. Some of us LS fans feel that (as you state) did not do a very good job in this review. I also stated on a previous post that the new LS is not a perfect 10 that CNET gives it. Most of us are annoyed by the arrogance and hypocritical remarks of a few of the posters here.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    LS460. Most of us are more concerned about comfort, technological advancements, fuel economy, environmental concerns, safety, etc. Some of us LS fans feel that (as you state)

    Buying an LS or any HELC for comfort, technology ,high quality fit and finish, engineering makes a lot of sense IMO.

    BUT buying a HELC for fuel economy and environmental concerns :confuse: The founders of Google and three celebrities who acted in the following films: The Departed, Curb Your Enthusiasm and Pretty Woman chose a Prius instead becase of fuel economy/environmental concerns. Wouldn't it be funny if a celebrity boasted about buying a LS because of its fuel economy and because of their very sincere environmental concerns? I think it would be quite funny indeed.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's stick to discussing the cars and the reviews. Comments about other posters need to be left outside the park, okay?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Or, the rankings are purely subjective Come on, we are talking about people making $30-50k a year testing cars that have price tags 3 times their take-home pay (in other words, cars that they would never buy themselves or keep one on regular basis) and trying to make some sort of judgement. Get real. Rags are not bibles.

    A not so wealthy jeweller can assess the priciest gems far better than any billionaire. Similarily the pre-requisite of assessing a pricey car objectively (including a Lambo) does not require a fat wallet.

    Objectivity and wallet size are not necessarily linked. In fact sometimes wallet size can hinder objectivity. A auto journalist that owns and loves Ferraris may not be the best in terms of providing an objective Lambo review.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    let me invite everyone to have some cookies and eggnog... and while we are partaking, let's remember we're talking about cars and not each other, okay?

    Okay!! Thanks! ;)
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    "Also why would anybody pay more for an LS 460 when it has not been shown to be an improvement over the LS 430? Given the former's braking and steering (from the auto press reviews), the LS 460 appears to actually be a step backward."

    Why are you so fixated on the LS 460's braking and steering? You have posted negative comments in regards to the LS 460 many times and in multiple forums and you seem to think that steering feel and braking performance are of the utmost importance to HELC buyers - which of course is not true. What is especially troubling is that you continue to use the worst 60-0/70-0 braking numbers that you can find when more accurate numbers are available. The C&D braking numbers are wildly inconsistent with the recorded figures achieved by other prominent auto reviewers. For instance, Greg Brown of Edmunds.com made the following observation in regards to the LS460:

    "From 60 mph the Lexus stops in just 128 feet, which is almost as short as the Mercedes S550."

    Additionally, Motor Trend was able to achieve a 60-0 time of 135 feet during COTY testing. C&D only achieved 207 & 209 feet during a 70-0 braking run. An additional 10mph to decelerate from and an extra 5 inches of wheelbase (plus the added weight) for the L version together do not translate into an extra 70+ feet stopping distance.
    Clearly, there was either a problem with the vehicle(s) provided to C&D or C&D testing procedures are inconsistent with those used by the other major auto reviewers.

    Steering and braking feel are far more subjective and what you and performance enthusiasts favor is not necessarily what the typical HELC buyer is looking. I cannot stand (well, I actually detest) the excessive (IMO) road feel that performance enthusiasts love - I don't want to "know" anything about the road below me from my steering wheel, pedals, or from the floor!!! With brakes, I will accept a touchy feeling if I can still come to a complete stop in a reasonable time - I wouldn't disqualify a vehicle just because a competing vehicle (that I happen to like less overall) has superior braking. However, I will disqualify a vehicle that has an unappealing interior to my eyes (an attractive interior is my first requirement), while you have mentioned in previous posts that interior design is not one of the most important things to you. Based on these same previous posts, I have come to the conclusion that what you look for in a vehicle is quite different than what the typical HELC buyer (and especially the typical LS buyer) is looking for ; overall performance and handling are FAR more important to you than the typical HELC buyer.

    The LS 460 is a substantial improvement over the LS 430 IMO. I really don't understand why you think that LS 460 buyers should be disappointed because C&D can't manage to achieve credible braking numbers and C&D doesn't like the steering feel when the typical LS buyer is very pleased with the steering feel. The LS was never designed for performance enthusiasts and would not be considered an improvement to those that want the LS to be something that it is not meant to be. The added handling ability of the European makes is almost completely irrelevant to the typical LS buyer; the LS handles just fine for the smooth suburban roads that an LS is usually driven on.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Very well put. Unfortunately, there are a few posters here who ignore rational thinking and seem to be obsessed with trying to denigrate the LS 460.

    I do not believe that some will ever be able to forgive the LS for displacing the S Class in the hearts and minds of most HELC buyers. Most recognize that if a car drives better, rides better, looks better, and costs less than its competitors, then it is indeed a superstar.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Well stated jcoby! I think that this point was brought up one other time many pages back, but how did they come up with a weight of 4700 pounds when the LS460L weighs 4332 according to the stats? That right there probably had something to do with the poor breaking distance as determined by C & D. As you mentioned, tests by others did not find the breaking distance to be so out of line. I believe that "something was rotten in the state of C & D testing". Some here will take my statement to mean that I do not want admit that the LS tested poorly and that I am coming up with excuses. No, not at all. I seek the truth (Libra) ;-). As I said earlier, the LS460L is not perfect. What car is? Perfection is dependent on individual preferences. But a few of the C & D results do not make much sense.

    As I stated on my earlier posts, most of us could not care less about the best handling or best performing vehicle. The n ew LS is more than good enough for me in this regard. Like you, I do NOT want to feel the cracks and bumps on the road surface. I would venture to guess that the great majority of American drivers have the same thinking about what is a pleasant driving experience as we do.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Note below that the hottest selling Lexuses in Europe (Land of the Diesels) are hybrids.

    Sales of Toyota's luxury model Lexus reached record levels in Europe this year, a spokesman for the carmaker's German operation said Tuesday.
    Some 45,000 Lexus cars were sold on the continent, 5,100 of them in the key market of Germany where sales were 52 per cent higher than a year ago, a spokesman for Toyota Deutschland said.
    The company said it envisaged sales of 6,100 vehicles in Germany and 60,000 for all of Europe next year.
    Hybrid models proved particularly popular with customers, Toyota said. Hybrid motors are available in the RX and GS models.
    Toyota said the Lexus GS 450h, which hit the European market in the summer, is the world's first luxury car equipped with a hybrid engine.
    © 2006 DPA

    Performance? Excitement? Are those two words a part of the Lexus lexicon? Maybe not but the new hybrid Toyota sports car (a concept today but who knows tomorrow?) does at least show that its corporate parent has a pretty good idea of what those two words mean. And this 400HP hybrid beaut is expected to sell in the high $30K range. Talk about VALUE!!

    Will we see a Lexus version of this hybrid? Maybe? Maybe not? But at least this Toyota scream EXCITEMENT! And I guarantee this car will be a hit in Europe as well as North America.

    image
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I've run into that name quite often lately. I have a lot of questions but I guess this isn't the place. I will look into it. Thanks.

    You can email me about it if you want. The Nuvi 660 (4.3" version with built in FM transmitter) is the highest rated portable GPS at both Cnet and PCMagazine. If you do get one, I would suggest getting a 3rd party mounting system, such as the air-vent mount. The stock windshield mount is ok, but in heavy rain it tends to fall off, which is obviously not a good thing while driving. It also comes with a "dashboard disc" for use in the two states where windshield mounts are illegal, and while very solid, that isn't portable because the disc won't really come off after its been attached.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    To me and some others, they were extremely sneaky in not pointing out in bold black and white that this was a pre-production model.

    Why should they when magazines test pre-production cars all the time? This harks back to the conspiracy nonsense. They mentioned it did they not? What difference does it make whether or not it was done in bold print or not? No one seemed to have a problem when a pre-production LS400 swept the field back in the day in one of their comparos.

    In fact, they did not even use a hyphen in the word, probably as an attempt to hide it as much as possible.

    Come on guy, that is little to much don't you think?

    I still don't see the best handling car as being the S550, the BMW and Audi are better handlers. They went for all around competence IMO.

    Again, I appreciate your honest attempt to be fair.

    Thank you. I'm really trying to honestly understand how all the previously brilliant sources of information are all of sudden no longer valid.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What about the other vehicles in these comparos? Aren't pre-production models supplied for these tests all the time?

    Well not if they're already on the market, which in fairness the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Jaguar all have been for some time now.

    I'd read in one of these C&D comparos in which Lexus asked for the comparo. I believe it was the first comparo of the original LS400 back in 1989-1990 and that car was a pre-production prototype also. It won.

    What I don't get is why Lexus would supply a car that was defective in the first place since they're known for such detail and quality. I dunno, maybe the brakes and door seals failed after C&D thrashed the car. Pre-product status though has nothing to do with the trunk space and handling though so it isn't like it would have won if it were a production model.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I also don't know the technical aspects of how my computer works...but I know IF it is working or not. Don't try to hang your hat on a statement I made about not knowing how an airbag is set off, that's REALLY silly.

    Poor analogy because you use your computer everyday. You don't use airbags but maybe once or twice in your life, never preferably.

    Problem is that you don't know how an airbag works and you seem to think that because an insurance company says a car has been totalled that airbags should have gone off. You couldn't be more oblivious to the facts if you wanted too. Its amazes me how one can say they don't know how something works and then say it is defective. Yep your opinion, but it isn't based on anything other than a silly bias. There isn't a fact within a 1000 miles of your "opinion".

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model.

    They should have been though, at least enough to check the car out and made sure it was truly represenative of what customers would be getting. If you notice these comparos seem to come around at C&D when a new or refreshed LS hits the scene.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Excellent points and the outcome could have indeed been different if they had tested a current A8L.

    I raised this same point back in Dec of 2003 when this same comparo was done with all 2004 model year cars, except the S430 which was a 2003. C&D complained about the S430's 5-speed transmission, but they noted the 2004 model had the 7-speed (which is praised worldwide) and that would have made some difference, just like the case of the 2006 A8L in a feild of 2007 cars. I was told that the fact the S430 was a 2003 model didn't make a difference, it wouldn't have won anyway. I agree, it wouldn't have, but maybe it wouldn't have been last either. Fast foward to this comparo and now these minor details make all the difference in the world. The LS wasn't production, like a production model would have helped it go from the last to first.

    No conspiracies here.

    Applause.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That cant be? Impossible! That M5 must have been a pre-productiong model. And if it wasn't the case then that M5 may not have been a representative model. ANd if that is not the case then the C & D editorials' objectivity must have been tarnished somehow by MB.

    That and the fact that MB has upped their payments to C&D.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No one denying that the S550 or BMW are better handling than the LS460.

    One thing though, we know the BMW is a handler and it placed ahead of the LS based on that, if you want to go with that, its ok by me. The S550 on the other hand didn't win out over the LS based on just handling like and others make it seem. The S does like I've said all along provide the same ride as the LS with better handling and that is what put it over. It isn't if you're being short changed on ride comfort or comfort in general with the S as you would in say the BMW for its superior handling. The fact that the LS didn't have a huge price advantage this time around probably hurt it too. It wasn't just a simple case of better handling by a long shot.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I don't see any "conspiracy" in C&Ds test. But one should look at other comparo's also as they come out. You can bet within under 6 months, Automobile, Motor Trend & Road & Track will do comparison tests of all of these cars also.

    The LS460 in C&Ds testing definately was flawed as both Motor Trend's and Road & Track's testing has shows similar braking, slalom, and skidpad numbers as it's competitors. C&D's Ls460 also performed poorly on the skidpad, yet for COTY testing the LS460 and S500 tested pretty evenly in braking, skidpad, and slalom.

    One must also look at the LS460 placing in last place and see just how good luxury cars and cars in general have gotten from just a few short years ago. It will be interesting to see what Infiniti throws out with the next Q45.

    Also, pricing played a big role in the LS's ranking, I think more than anything. I think if the same LS460 were priced in the $70K range instead of the as tested $93K MSRP it would have been number 2 or 3. It will take a while for it to sink in that a LS460 can now cost almost $100K. the Value card was one of the big reasons the LS always came out on top or near the top in comparo's.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Like you, I do NOT want to feel the cracks and bumps on the road surface. I would venture to guess that the great majority of American drivers have the same thinking about what is a pleasant driving experience as we do.

    You're telling me you're going to feel every crack and bump in the road driving a S550? If Gary is going overboard on brakes you seem to be doing the same here regarding (if you're talking about) the S550. The BMW? Yes it does have firmer ride as does the Audi, but the S550 rides better than either of them.

    I've read many times here from Lexus owners that if you can have it all why not. By that same token, a car that rides as good or better (Consumer reports on the previous S vs. the LS430) while handling better should be the obvious choice shouldn't it? That is if how a car ride and drives is so important. S-Class drivers have never been punished in the ride department. Never.

    I too of course think the brake issue was just a pre-production thing. Both MT and R&T have tested the SWB LS460 and got much better braking numbers. C&D drove pre-production LS460s twice, in their first drive report and in this comparo so.....they've never been able to get good braking numbers.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The only Toyota I'd ever buy would be a Supra. If that is a hint as what it might look like then I'll forever be Toyotaless.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "If that is a hint as what it might look like then I'll forever be Toyotaless."

    Oh No, Toyota's gonna go bankrupt!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    They would if more people actually cared about how a car looks. I want a good looking 350Z beater from them, not that ugly thing.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    3D drawings show very little and I'm guessing the actual concept to be shown at the auto show will look much better.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I doubt it with all those wild scoops and openings, but I'll be there to see it in person regardless.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm with you. I had some happy times test driving the Toyota Supra back in the day. :)
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