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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    You know, I step away for probably at least a year from the townhall and it's like I never left. :P

    So how goes the great Lexus versus Merc debate these days?
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    1.My use of the words "bold black and white" was just a figure of speech. All, I am trying to say is that C & D should have made it more obvious that this was a pre-production model.

    2.I was also pointing out that the other 4 cars tested were production models since they have been around for many months.

    3.As far as handling is concerned it makes zero difference to me and many others whether it is the BMW or the S550 that has the better handling. The LS460 handling is more than good enough.

    4.I did not say that you will not be comfortable on the raod driving the S550. I believe that you will be more comfortable driving the LS460L as far as bumps and cracks are concerned. I am also of the opinion that the LS is quieter.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Toyota Supra discussion is here

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    Share your vehicle reviews

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Uhhh Kirstie, this is the HELC discussion, it's not the place to put links to other discussions. :P
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I don't see any "conspiracy" in C&Ds test. But one should look at other comparo's also as they come out. You can bet within under 6 months, Automobile, Motor Trend & Road & Track will do comparison tests of all of these cars also.

    The LS460 in C&Ds testing definately was flawed as both Motor Trend's and Road & Track's testing has shows similar braking, slalom, and skidpad numbers as it's competitors. C&D's Ls460 also performed poorly on the skidpad, yet for COTY testing the LS460 and S500 tested pretty evenly in braking, skidpad, and slalom.

    One must also look at the LS460 placing in last place and see just how good luxury cars and cars in general have gotten from just a few short years ago.

    Looks like this issue won't die! :surprise:

    Besides Max's astute synopsis, this is my problem.

    One, the Mazda3 was jobbed the month before by the VW rabbit, so I was worried already.

    And now take a look at the cars and their results.

    In the 12/03 comparison, where the results were Lexus, Jag, BMW, Audi, VW, Benz, the Audi was LAST in fun to drive, same score as the S430 and LS.

    This time it is first, ahead of everyone else by 3 points? Getting an extra 9 points against the Lexus? Think 9 points can sway a competition? Did the Audi gain a Nitrous button in the last 3 years? Couldn't have. It was the slowest car by a mile!

    The BMW actually had THE BEST ride/handling balance, the only car to score 9 on both. Finished two points from 4th place.

    In '03 the Lexus had an 8 point lead going in to the final (performance) round. This year, it was tied with the Audi for 2nd.

    The Jag was 2nd last time, now 4th? They complained about it's engine, but it had the highest top speed, and was within .4 of the BMW and Benz., and won best brakes. Another car penalized for too many options. The last car tested was under $70k. This one was $92k!

    The Audi didn't get better, and I KNOW the Lexus did. The Audi was the slowest car, slower than the LS and the sporty BMW, so how is it the most fun?

    Either C&D was wrong before, or it's wrong now.

    Since it's facelift, the mags crows feet are somehow deeper and more noticable.

    A last place showing only proves they had the wrong version for their New Math system.

    The only cars that got better were the LS and S550, and, according to C&D, the Jag got worse! And the Audi slower! And had a bad facelift!

    Maybe in 3 years, the LS will be voted "Most fun to drive"? While being the slowest. I think this forum would cave-in if that happened. :(

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Several posters mentioned the 2008 Toyota Supra.
    Kirstie is informing us there is already a thread discussing this future vehicle. :)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Besides Max's astute synopsis, this is my problem.

    One, the Mazda3 was jobbed the month before by the VW rabbit, so I was worried already.

    Well you might have something to look forward to since R&T put the IS350 over the TL and G35. I'm surprised some haven't jumped on that bandwagon yet.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I am no blind sycophant to Lexus.

    The G35, or the 335i, are THE best sports sedans out, and I would buy either before an IS350.

    If it was slush tranny only being considered, that would change things, but the IS350 is no sports sedan without a stick. It is 3rd best.

    TL is Funky Fourths for bing FWD only!

    But the IS350 is fast and sexy, kinda how I like my women! ;)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    that down a little further and say the latest incarnation of the 3 Series, the BMW twin turbo masterpiece 335i, is the best sport sedan out there.

    I have yet to see a review on the 335i that has been less than ecstatic. One reviewer called it one of the 3 best cars in the world.
    I have my heart set on one (the coupe) and would gladly trade my 545i (no slouch) for one immediately. Currently locked into the 545i lease. :sick:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The Entry-Level Performance Sedans and Luxury Performance Sedans discussions are available to continue some of these recent threads.

    Let's mosey on back toward the high-end vehicles here...
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Saw probably the last of the VW Phaetons to be sitting new in the dealer's showroom last week. The wife had never heard of it. She about fainted when she saw the price. She couldn't comprehend paying that much for a VW (which of course was the problem everyone could see coming from the get-go).

    I'll never understand why that vehicle exists (especially when you already have Audi in the fold to go after that market). Nice car. Very nice actually, but no way could you sell enough of those at that price with that brand on the front.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Very nice actually, but no way could you sell enough of those at that price with that brand on the front.

    How long is the VW certified warranty? The depreciation on the Phaeton is I think actually worse than the Jaguar XJ. Pretty soon you'll probably be able to get a W12 for Honda Accord money. There's no way in hell I'd own one out of warranty, but it would make a pretty amazing CPO deal, at least for a few years.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "There's no way in hell I'd own one out of warranty.."

    You've got that right mister.

    The way things are going with this class of car, I wouldn't be caught dead having one out of warranty.

    With the '02-'03 7-Series being the first truly space-age car, and judging from that model's many electronic faults, that's enough for me to purchase an ext. warranty.

    Once thought to be the most reliable car in it's class, it'll be interesting to see how the LS460 plays out over the near future with it's newfound electronic gadgetry.

    BTW: How's the XK holding up? My neighbor just got a BRG w/cashmere XKR for Christmas. He's a huge Jag buff, going all the way back to his old E-Type. I'm still considering the XK in my next coupe/conv. purchase early next year. The fortified SL is looking quite good now. Word is out that there will be a AM V8 Vantage Volante for '08 along with it's new found power? Any word have you heard?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I find the Toyota FT-SH far more exciting than the Lexus LF-A. Oh yes I know the rumours about the LF-A with its 5L 500 hp engine. And I know that the Lexus LF-A is a reflection of Toyota's Formula One commitments and it could potentially be an impressive competitor in this exotic segment of the market(although I learned these past few years that Lexus press release specs tends to sound far more impressive than what they really are). Today a Lexus sports car is a oxymoron but who knows about tomorrow?

    So why do I find the humble FT-SH as a far more exciting car than the more exotic and powerful Lexus LF-A?

    Becasue the FT-SH is similar to the Telsa in terms of being a new niche sports car. Although not electircal as the Telsa is, the FT-SH does redefine a sports car in the same way that a Telsa does . I mean what is easier to produce? A V8/V10/V12/V16 sports car ora HSD or electrical sports car? I think the answer is obvious. My question is how can someone not be impressed with a one of a kind sports car with impressive performance and HSD at a price range in the high 30s? Oh well to each their own.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The XK has been great, no troubles thus far, including syncing with my Nokia E62. Definitely check out the XK the next time you are in the market. It's certainly no Z06, but I think its a more entertaining car to drive than the SL, at least the 550 anyway.

    The V8 Vantage roadster (apparently it won't be called a Volante) is supposed to debut at the LA auto show. From Motortrend:

    "The Vantage Roadster equals the performance of its Coupe sibling, with 0-60 mph coming in 4.9 seconds with a max speed of 175 mph from its 4.3-liter V-8. The vehicle will be available with two transmission alternatives from launch. A six-speed Graziano manual gearbox comes standard, with Aston Martin's new Sportshift automated manual transmission an option.

    First deliveries of the V8 Vantage Roadster are expected around summer of 2007. So far, no word on pricing, but expect it to be somewhere north of the V8 Vantage coupe's roughly $110,000 tag."

    image
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    There's no way in hell I'd own one out of warranty.."
    You've got that right mister.

    Long term pain, long term gain.
    Who knows in a few decades or maybe in a century or two the Phaeton may become a hefty priced collectible?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont think we'll be seeing Phaetons at Barret-Jackson. VW made too many of them, and it never had any real impact on the market. Did any of today's collectibles start out as flops?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    1.My use of the words "bold black and white" was just a figure of speech. All, I am trying to say is that C & D should have made it more obvious that this was a pre-production model.

    I simply don't get this. They mentioned that it was a pre-production model. What more could they have done?

    2.I was also pointing out that the other 4 cars tested were production models since they have been around for many months.

    No argument from me there, but automags test pre-production cars all the time. All this blaming of C&D, but no one is blaming Lexus for supplying what turned out to be a defective car. What is Lexus' involvment in this? C&D can't demand a car from them, they can only ask. Lexus gave them the car, C&D didn't go to Lexus and tell them which LS460L they wanted.

    3.As far as handling is concerned it makes zero difference to me and many others whether it is the BMW or the S550 that has the better handling. The LS460 handling is more than good enough.

    This is likely true for Lexus buyers, not BMW, MB or Audi buyers.

    4.I did not say that you will not be comfortable on the raod driving the S550. I believe that you will be more comfortable driving the LS460L as far as bumps and cracks are concerned. I am also of the opinion that the LS is quieter.

    Ok, that is your opinion which is fine, but even if this were the case the difference in ride comfort between the two is going to be all that different (plus the MB gives you better handling, which never, ever hurts). I have never been in a S-Class that didn't glide over bumps especially since Airmatc and ABC came along. The Lexus probably is quieter.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Still at it huh Doc? Still trying to come up with a way to discredit a comparo by your favorite magazine. Chuckle.

    Just for the record I see your point concerning the other cars in the test, but clearly the S550 isn't a S430.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think they'll do both. One for Toyota and one for the Lexus brand. I don't know which one is better to look at though. Do you think they can really produce such a car and price it in the 30-40K range. I doubt it.

    M
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Yes, you do see my point(s).

    The S550 certainly isn't an S430, quite the opposite. And the LS460 is no bottom-feeder. Fair enough?

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    "I simply don't get this. They mentioned that it was a pre-production model. What more could they have done"?

    Yes, the word "preproduction" appeared once toward the end of the review. I would venture to guess that about 99% of the people reading that review passed right over that word without realizing it. I certainly did and I am sure most people on this forum did as well. I remember when it first came out a couple weeks ago that a lot of folks (if not all) on this forum thought it was a production model.

    "but no one is blaming Lexus for supplying what turned out to be a defective car. What is Lexus' involvement in this? C&D can't demand a car from them, they can only ask. Lexus gave them the car, C&D didn't go to Lexus and tell them which LS460L they wanted".

    I agree that Lexus should have been more careful on what vehicle they supplied but this was about 2 months prior to the car going to market.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    "From the "Talk to the Hand" File, it appeared that the old Mercedes-Benz arrogance was back and in full bloom in their latest print ad campaign for the new S-Class. The headline? "At The Top Of The Automobile Industry Is One Company. At The Top Of That Company Is One Car." Then it goes on to suggest in glowing copy that nothing has changed in the automotive world in the least and that the M-B S-Class has always been the world's premier car and that the latest version is no exception, continuing that tradition. Okay, so let's get this straight, Mercedes-Benz snaps its fingers and presses the "reset" button and everything is okay now? After squandering the legacy of one of the world's great brands by building gadget-laden techno-wonders with the reliability of a dollar store compass, M-B wants us all to forget what happened and resume the practice of three-pointed star idolatry? That's notgonnahappen.com. Memo to Dieter and his crew: There's not a snowball's chance in hell that this is how things will work. Before you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. Mercedes-Benz was once a great brand, but in a world of surprisingly competitive Cadillacs, outstanding BMWs and relentlessly perfect entries from Lexus, Mercedes-Benz is just another car company struggling for the same piece of the luxury-performance pie. "
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Go back and see post # 21726.

    Mercedes Benz sales have been going through the roof.
    I believe it is quite obvious that Mercedes Benz has been walking the walk quite well. :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Some BMW commercials are linked below. Surprisingly the M5 Ad was banned (the best ad among the links)

    4 BMW Commercials

    Non-BMW Ad
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Do you think they can really produce such a car and price it in the 30-40K range. I doubt it.

    Hopefully. Based on what I read on a website that is the rumored price range. Only time will tell--but if the FT-HS does sell at such a price this car will definitely be in high demand.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Aston just keep'em rolling. That is one beautiful drop-top! I wonder if they've abandoned their long stance against hard-top convertibles? Looks that way judging from that hard cowl over the rear parcel shelf.

    The XK remains at the top of the list, even more accentuated now that I've driven my neighbors XKR for my S8 in return. We swapped out rides for the day, and all I can say is it's been a splendid day at court.... ;)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I had to take a double look at the S600 badge on the back of my MBZ, just to be sure that it's a Benz as I don't ever remember a pothole or expansion joint disrupting the ride of this S-Class. And that's with 20" wheels/tires.

    The same goes for the S550. No car in this class exhibts the complete circle of balancing ride, comfort, and handling as does the S-Class, although the A8 is very close, it just has secondary body motions that the RWD S-Class does without. The Jag XJ would be next, followed by the 7-Series and then the LS.

    I don't find a car bouncing 4 times after it has hit a rut very comforting and relaxing. More nausea inducing if you ask me, and that is what the LS does, at least the $94k unit I drove. Wonder was that too a pre-production model???... :P ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    AE is not always right. Despite what they think, (and that post was from when the new S class launched) the S550 has been a huge hit for MB. Mercedes buyers seem to be a loyal bunch, willing to stick with their brand, even when it doesnt necessarily live up to its ideals, and (according to The truth about cars) has more lemon-law cars than just about every other luxury brand put together.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The spy shots for the V8 vantage roadster have all shown a car with a soft top, so I assume thats what its going to have. Honestly, I think I'd rather have the XKR. Its just as fast as the V8 vantage, has far better seconday controls, and its automatic is one of the best I've ever used.

    Aston on the other hand has a nasty history with SMGs. The Stig broke the V12 Vanquish gearbox three times before he was able to complete even a single lap. The V8 Vantage would be great with the MT, but I definitely wouldn't order the SMG. At least the Cambiocorsa box can go to the track without ripping itself apart. Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure the new Maserati coupe and spyder are also due next year.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So what will be BMW's answer to Porsches' Panamera? The BMW X6. This will be a four door coupe version of the X5 SUV. The X6 will have AWD and a higher seating position than a MB CLS.

    One of the engines of this SUV coupe will be available with the same twin turbo engine as my BMW335i. In addition there may be a X6 with a 420HP twin turbo V8.

    Being frugal and a value hunter by nature I'd prefer a X5 over a X6 and a 5 series over a 6 series. Given a choice between two vehicles with the same platform and drivetrain I will always pick the cheaper one. I am so damned frugal sometimes I wonder what the hell am I doing in this HELC forum :confuse: My definition of HELC is a vehicle in which frugality and value are of no relevance.

    Sorry but the link below is only in German.

    AutoZeitung

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am sooo uninterested in a BMW X6.

    That photo looks like BMW's effort to refurbish an old WW2 tank. I wouldn't be caught dead in that. I have yet to find an SUV that I could be enthusiastic about.

    The BMW diesel offerings sometime next year could prove to be exciting. I will test drive any or all of them as they come out probably late in 2007. Perhaps the Mercedes Benz Bluetec too. Never drove any kind of diesel before. :surprise:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Wow, that is one UGLY whatever it is.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    This will be a four door coupe version of the X5 SUV. The X6 will have AWD and a higher seating position than a MB CLS.

    That doesn't make any sense. First of all, SUV's technically have 5 doors. Second, there's no such thing as a "coupe-SUV", period. This is an SUV, and an ugly one at that. I'll take the Q7 over this in a heartbeat.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    They should win a prize for masking. I don't know what they're trying to hide. It will probably come out looking ugly anyway. Here's more of that spectacular masking:

    Motor Trend X6 Spy Shots
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "...there's no such thing as a 'coupe-SUV'"

    Well if sedans can be coupes with 4 doors, I guess this is BMW "creativity" at work.

    (I'll get around to e-mailing you about the Nuvi. Thanks.)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The S550 certainly isn't an S430, quite the opposite. And the LS460 is no bottom-feeder. Fair enough?

    Yep! We finally agree on something.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Don't waste your time there Hp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, the word "preproduction" appeared once toward the end of the review. I would venture to guess that about 99% of the people reading that review passed right over that word without realizing it. I certainly did and I am sure most people on this forum did as well. I remember when it first came out a couple weeks ago that a lot of folks (if not all) on this forum thought it was a production model.

    I don't see how that could be possible. It clearly says "our pre-production model". I saw it right away. I guess you'll be surprised to find out that magazines test pre-production vehicles all the time, without mentioning it. They usually only mention it when something malfunctions or when the performance isn't up to spec.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, those are the qualities that puts the S-Klasse over its rivals in nearly every market around the world. The Lexus has the ride, but not the body control or high-speed stability/connected feel.

    To be fair though I don't think even a Buick bounces that many times now, or do they...lol?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I still wouldn't want the hybrid version though. I'd take the lesser model, say with "only" 300hp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Everyting I've seen on this is says that it is supposed to be something like the Infiniti FX. It is either that or some type of R-Class competitor, which I doubt.

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I don't see how that could be possible. It clearly says "our pre-production model". I saw it right away.

    Well, I am sure you did but when you originally posted this comparo you certainly didn't mention it. Thanks for the confession. I wondered at the time if you knew or not. I guess you just answered that question. Even when some of us speculated that it might be a preproduction model you were silent, but knew all along that it was.

    In other words you did all you could to keep it quiet and left it for us to dig out. One obscure word in a very large article. If this was not important then why were you trying to hide it?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    As much as this has been beaten into the ground, I don't think anyone was trying to hide anything!

    Let's drop this line of conversation, please. It's time to move on.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well, I am sure you did but when you originally posted this comparo you certainly didn't mention it. Thanks for the confession. I wondered at the time if you knew or not. I guess you just answered that question. Even when some of us speculated that it might be a preproduction model you were silent, but knew all along that it was.

    You guys just don't seem to get that magazines test pre-production models all the time. There was no need to point it out, but like I said before they will if something is wrong with the car in question.

    Secondly the car didn't lose the comparo solely based on the things that were off due to it being a pre-production model. The LS460L's handling, trunk space and price also cost it points in addition to the long-braking distances and poor 0-60 performance, only the latter two things that could have been off due to pre-production status. I don't see why these facts are constantly ignored or filed under this "pre-production" excuse.

    In other words you did all you could to keep it quiet and left it for us to dig out.

    Boy you've got to really reach to come up with something like that. The bottom line is that the Lexus lost the comparo, and it lost badly and the excuse making has been nonstop every since. How and why in the world would I try to hide something in an article I posted here? How much sense does that make? None.

    One obscure word in a very large article. If this was not important then why were you trying to hide it?

    And the excuse making goes on and on. I posted the article, yet I'm trying to hide the contents? Makes sense to me. Ain't nobody try to hide squat so please spare me this nonsense.

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    That's the end of this conversation. I can see you were probably writing this as I posted, but we're done with this now. People are just saying the same things over and over and we need to move on.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The BMW diesel offerings sometime next year could prove to be exciting. I will test drive any or all of them as they come out probably late in 2007. Perhaps the Mercedes Benz Bluetec too. Never drove any kind of diesel before.

    I love diesels myself but reality always gets in the way of my love.

    The reality is this:

    Diesel prices are not what they used to be. In the 80s when my father bought his 83 MB300D the price of diesel was sold at a discount. Today's premium diesel pump prices defeats the primary purpose of diesels which is cost savings.

    The 2.2 L Honda Accord lack of urea injection may make it a modest success. BUT the urea injection of larger diesel displacement engines that are offered by MB and will soon be offered byBMW and Audi will be no success. Why? Just imagine the thousands of diesel owners confronted with routine urea low level warning signals? Many owners with a busy schedule will view such routine visits as a hindrance. And just imagine overworked owners who have no time to get their urea topped up? These overworked owners will end up being stalled somewhere on a roadside.

    Do you honestly think such owners will be happy with such a diesel vehicle? Their negative opinions will definitely be expressed in CR/JD Power and affect the future sales of diesels.

    I anticipate that my next car will be a hybrid. As hybrids improve diesels will become a relic of the past.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    At least all us forum members are united in our disgust about the new BMW X6? When was the last time all HELC/HELM forum members were so united before? Never!

    What is the point of such a senseless and ugly vehicle?

    It appears the marketing volks at BMW did their homework. They know the trends and the trends dictated niche segmentation and mass customization of automobiles. Every single demographic/lifestyle group will be served with some kind of highly customized crossover/vehicle. Apparently BMW is not the only automaker that is trying to follow this trend.

    I call such marketing "Fluff over Substance", but that is just my opinion.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    "Fluff over Substance"

    Yeah, but sadly, it seems to work every time it's tried.

    We'd go way, way OT if I listed the 10-20 automotive trends that have appeared over the past decade or so that illustrate your phrase, so I won't. But they've all sold like hotcakes.

    H.L. Mencken said it best: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, I haven't read any complaints about the new diesels in the europress, but if as you say, diesels will create some problems for us over here, I would take a pass and look at conventional BMW's. You already know what I have my eye on.
    I'm pretty sure there will be quite a premium added to the BMW diesel vehicles' prices.

    I will of course be reading all diesel reviews and watching for potential problems as the reviews come out over here. I'm not going to lease a vehicle that will complicate my life.

    I can just imagine trying to search through 100 sub-menus with iDrive to attempt to fix a defective low urea warning light! LOL!!
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