High End Luxury Cars

brightness04 · December 2006

Dewey, I'm very surprised, for someone who claims to be a working pro in the financial industry, you would even make these arguments, much less without studying the numbers that I presented.

The lease deal you are mentioning above may not apply to the car that someone actually wants especially a hot selling car

The same residual applies to every model of the car, regardless what configuration you pick; in fact, if you want loaded options to begin with, taking the lease deals would come out even better because there is no way in real life resale can keep up with the base car as well. Is it really financially smart to to pay through the nose for a hot car? In any case, even if assuming full MSRP for both purchase and lease, 74% 27-mo residual means 26% of MSRP for 27 months. So a purchase decision for the same nominal price as lease would finally break even at 104th month (27/26 * 100). That's more than 8.5 years, when you are finally coming out even on a per month cost basis with someone who is about to turn in his fourth new car in that same time span. In that time span, you'd have bought two sets of tires at least, two sets of brakes, 60k service and 90k service, not to mention brake fluid flushes every two years, coolant flush every two years, and possibly A/C job by then, if not some electrical jobs especially the expensive LCD replacement. Are you sure you are even ahead monetarily when you sell the car? That's assuming not having any major problem at all, which is unrealistic for an 8+ year old BMW. Not to mention all the new safety and comfort features that you are missing for more than half a decade.

re (1) ever heard of gap insurance? It's like $40 a year; some leases include gap insurance. IN fact, it's a big reason to lease. When you total a fully owned car within a year after purchase, you'd be footing a much bigger bill to come up with the difference in order to get another new car.

re (2) different residual rates are available for different mileage allowances; average mileage by definition is applicable to most drivers. In case you did not notice, BMW and MB are heavily skewed towards the prosperous urban areas on the coasts (for Canada that means lake coast and Pacific coast, within 75 miles of US border), not the great interior where people actually do drive a lot of miles

re (3) Lease return policies are actually quite generous because they do not want to upset future customers. In any case, you have to repair the car if you own it too.

re (4) but why? if getting a new one every 27 months is cheaper? That also cures the urge to dive into hot deals like the 335i prematurely at MSRP before M3 comes along and depress 335i prices. Your near-100% MSRP over the next 8years (96 months) can not begin to compare to someone who picks up a 328i for 27mo at 18% MSRP, then a 335i for another 27mo at 18%MSRP, then another 338i (with higher boost), then a 340i, all assuming average driving pattern.

(5) Unless the numbers work out otherwise. As a financial guru, you should be keen on the details.

(6) Warren Beffet does not need a car at all. He lives in a jet and get chauffered around. His keeping an old car or buying American is little more than a publicity stunt. If he cares about pinching those pennies, he should have gotten rid of his car a long time ago, just to save insurance and depreciation. If the banks underwriting on those residual terms lost a billions, I want to be on the opposite side of the trade; as simple as that. There is no financial leverage involved. If someone has to borrow in order to get a car, he probably should not get a luxury car, but that's not the point of discussion here.

(7) Depending on what's happening in your life and what per centage of income the car payment represents. If a carpayment is no more than a few per cent of a person's monthly income, what's the big deal? If I were to take that 328i deal, it would be about 1.5% of my monthly income. Do I really care about the burden of such a commitment? If you lead a stable life, it shouldn't be hard to look ahead 27 months. If you have to relocate overseas suddenly, you'd have bigger problem, such as the house.

MSRPs are ludicrous? Apparently you never bought a hot selling car before. Ofcourse a buyer of cars with dealerlot cobwebs will find MSRPs irrelevant.

Well, buying hot cars at MSRP certainly does not jive with shrewed money management, especially if you are not using residual to cover yourself at the back end. The knowledge that you will just get another one in a little over two years may well cure the urge of once in a decade excitement that overcomes better judgement.

brightness04 · December 2006

it is best to buy one that is slightly used and has already taken the big depreciation hit.

True for most brands, but not necessarily true for brands with heavy residual subsidies, especially if the car's maintenance and repair bill is high when old.

dhamilton · December 2006

Hpowders, what can I say. I guess we both like to be cheeky bastards. I've just got myself in a debate with Merc which I can't hope to win, but this thread needs some fire IMO. Otherwise it just gets boring.

Yeah, ultimately if I want a track car, I'm getting a Cayman or a lotus. I really have no problem with the bimmer other than if I wanted that hard of a performance edge, I'd get the aforementioned.

The Benz is only slightly more exciting than a Lexus in that line up. [for illustration purposes of course. M5, S6 E63AMG] The S class, and maybe the GL are the only whips in the Benz lineup that are remotely interesting to me. [IMO]

blkhemi · December 2006

Altho this is not thread to discuss these cars, you do bring some valid points.

The S6 is surely not the fastest. But it's all around ability of competence leads me to believe that it is the better of the M and AMG, even the STS-v. And the fact that a Caddy has never played here before and requesting a $70k check in the process is questionable.

No car in this hottly contested arena offers what it does. Sure the E63 will light fire to anything in this class in a str8 line, but within a few twisties, the power is useless due to a suspension not up to the power of this car.

The M5 is a pure specialty car. And this is the way BMW bills it. It surely isn't a daily driver, and hopefully you have your Microsoft-certified licensure to operate it.

The STS-v is hopelessly lost when it comes to this class. Sure it has the adequate performance to compete here. But adequacy gets you nowhere here, and judging from the lackluster sales of this unit, many agree on this.

That leaves the S6. It's V10 is shamelessly underpowered when compared with the best from Germany. But with that slight drawback, little else is to be at fault.

This is the same problem I faced with the S8. I went back and foward from the S8 to the S65. The 65AMG just didn't warrant it's lofty price tag, and the S8 won it's business especially since it fulfill it's destiny as Audi intended it to. Not the fastest, not the best handler, but surely the best all-arounder in terms of performance and luxury..

hpowders · December 2006

Several months ago I admit to having had Cayman fever.
But I do a lot of airport trips and the Cayman just wouldn't be practical. Would make a fine second car. Only I don't need or want a second car. My garage is already filled to the max with the 545i and 2 golf carts.

The best compromise for me is a BMW. Good performance with a useable trunk.

hpowders · December 2006

Sounds like Canada doesn't offer gap insurance otherwise he surely would have known about it.
No gap insurance in the USA would take me out of the game.

lexusguy · December 2006

Actually, Lexus USA lobbied the bosses in Japan for a VDIM off switch. The IS and GS certainly have their problems, but undefeatable (without jumping through a bunch of service command hoops) stability control is no longer one of them.

merc1 · December 2006

Getting a car out on a track and seeing what it can do is different from a lane change test. If you can't see that, then I guess your like Mercedes who obviously can't see the need for handling.

Likewise if you can't see the importance of a car being able to perform and evasive manuver fast and cleanly you don't know what handling is either. If you think that a Mercedes E63 can't handle you've lost the plot. Fact is that, both tests are way to measure handling. If they weren't then neither mag would do them. Heck even the Mary Poppins of the industry (MotorWeek) does a emergency lane change test.

A two second lap time difference vs a less than a second acceleration to 60. [motor trend] Once again if Car&Driver did a track test [and I'm a subscriber by the way] then we may know more. They and Edmunds are consistantly slower than everyone else in acceleration times.

Doesn't matter the S6 will never match the acceleration of the E63 or M5, no matter who tests it.

I hate to break this to you but not everyone aspires to Mercedes sales or Lexus sales for that matter. Does Audi want more? Sure, but clearly not at the expense of dynamics which placate guys with money, and very little taste.

I hate to break it to you that Audi wants more sales and they've been wanting them for years. Now tell me exactly what does more sales have to do with taste? Most ridiculous association I've yet heard. Just because Mercedes sells more cars than Audi their buyers lack taste? Stunning. I had no idea Audi desperation went that deep. I guess in Europe Audi buyers are equally classless since they lead BMW and Mercedes in certain markets/classes.

The point of the figure 8 is to show handling prowess, over raw power. Raw power is where the Benz shines, and on the track is where it doesn't. Let me know when you take a corner in that Benz.

Wow, I hadn't realized this. Again, you're on some nonesense if you think the E63 can't take a corner. One magazine said that it handles excellently and what did MT say exactly I don't know yet. Either way you know full well that no car in this class is a poor handler and to even imply that one is shows how surreal this Audi thing has become to you.

If the test is uber luxury drag racers, then the Benz deserves respect. Engines are what they [AMG division] do best. However, I'm excited that for once, someone saw the Audi in it's best light.

I agree, but this utter nonsense about a Benz not being able to take a corner taints anything sensible you've posted here. You make the Audi sound like a open-wheel racer the Benz a Caddy from the 80's.

I have no problem giving any one due credit. Lexus for luxury, and reliability, and Benz for Luxury, and speed.

Is there someone else using your user ID? I am not and will never be a defender of Lexus so I'm not sure what the point of this was.

But you know good and hell well, that "sport' isn't their strong point.

If you're talking about this latest round of AMG Benzes I think you need to do a little more research. AMG has been tunning their vehicles for sportier dynamics starting with the current SLK55 and there is no way in the world a magazine like C&D would rave about the handling of a car like the E63 if it weren't greatly improved from the E55, which they knocked for lackluster handling. So your statement is only half-way correct. Things change. Being an Audi fan you should know this.

M

merc1 · December 2006

If your going to point out acceleration as the only critirea for being "all around" performance minded, then your starting to sound like the Lexus camp that does nothing but talk about reliability.

Did I say acceleration was the only criteria for all around performance? NO. I said that the Audi doesn't outperform the Benz in every area like your posts imply. The Audi is a bit more capable at the track, but it lacks the speed of its other two rivals.

I repeat, it's the benz that's down on all around performance, and up on over priced.

Repeating it doesn't make it so either. The Audi is priced where it is because it lacks the engine of the other two and Audi knows this. Now when they do a RS6 they'll leapfrom the other two in power and price. You get what you pay for.

Again, I'd like to know when you're going to do some figure 8's. I'd love to watch.

M

dhamilton · December 2006

your really starting to sound like the Lexus crowd talking about sales all the time.

What you said was the Audi is down on performance to the other two. Once again, sounding like a Lexite that doesn't consider handling. The track proves this out, not some metro sexual lane change. The Benz is out braked, and out handled.

If you can't get the point of the figure eight, then wow, kind of like the Lexi can't grasp a turn.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I just hope your next argument isn't that the Cayman is down on power to the CLK, thereby outperformed by it.

Let me know when they drag race the Benz, I'll be napping. [along with the drive]

merc1 · December 2006

your really starting to sound like the Lexus crowd talking about sales all the time.

Thats hilarious because I'm not the one that brought up sales in the first place. You tried to imply that because MB sells more cars that they are somehow of lesser taste than Audi. Secondly, you tried to imply that Audi has some type of exclusivity. Neither statement has any basis in reality. The latter is really funny because Audi's so called exclusivity isn't something they want or stumbled upon by accident. That is a typical GM rant. Slow sales, not limited production or specialty status, equals exclusivity. That is the grandest excuse (label) for lesser sales in the book. So if you want to turn it around like I'm in the one hollering sales in reply to everything then go right ahead. Anyone reading the thread can see and knows better. Now if Audi sold more cars we'd hear a different tune wouldn't we?

You failed to address the fact that Audi is right up there with (and ahead of in some markets and segments) BMW and Mercedes in some European markets. Does that make them somhow less tastesful purchases in Europe? Or does this not matter because we live if the good ole U.S. of A.?

What you said was the Audi is down on performance to the other two. Once again, sounding like a Lexite that doesn't consider handling. The track proves this out, not some metro sexual lane change. The Benz is out braked, and out handled.

And what you said is that the Benz can't handle or take a corner which we know is bunk. If anyone is sounding like someone from that camp it is you, chosing which comparo to hang your hat on and calling the others (that don't put your S6 first) suspect. That is pure Lexus. Period.

If you can't get the point of the figure eight, then wow, kind of like the Lexi can't grasp a turn.

Likewise if you can't see the point of an emergency manuver then you're on the same boat, different deck. Like I said before both tests are measures of how a car handles/behaves? Are you telling me they aren't? Classic case of picking and choosing the criteria that puts the fave in the best light possible while dismissing any other measurements that doesn't. Again who does this? Hmmmmm..

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I just hope your next argument isn't that the Cayman is down on power to the CLK, thereby outperformed by it.

Likewise I hope yours isn't that Audi buyers somehow have more taste than MB buyers. Oh wait you already implied that.

Let me know when they drag race the Benz, I'll be napping. [along with the drive]

Nah, your Audi wouldn't be able to keep the Benz in sight.

Most of your arguments about the Audi and its better handling are valid, but this about the Benz not being able to handle when the differences are not that great is the specious part. Where all of it is coming from is beyond me.

M

dhamilton · December 2006

Your statement was that the Audi was "outperformed" by the Benz. All you have in that argument is acceleration, and a, wait for it, lane change test. So you, by your own admission, are touting acceleration as outperforming the Audi.

Specious? The lane change test, that's specious of you to tout that as outperformed.

You brought up the sales with that tired, Audi wishes it had the sales of Mercedes, BS.

A lane change test? Are we allowing soccer Moms to chose the testing criteria?

Now look who's picking criteria from what helps the argument.

Are you going to the Detroit show? I'm jealous

.

merc1 · December 2006

Your statement was that the Audi was "outperformed" by the Benz. All you have in that argument is acceleration, and a, wait for it, lane change test. So you, by your own admission, are touting acceleration as outperforming the Audi.

So acceleration isn't part of peformance now? It is most certainly part of the overall picture.

Specious? The lane change test, that's specious of you to tout that as outperformed.

Likewise you're touting a figure 8? Something that no driver is ever going to do on the open road, but I'm guessing now you're going to tell me that you have. But, but, you've never had to swerve to avoid something right?

You brought up the sales with that tired, Audi wishes it had the sales of Mercedes, BS.

Actually I said more sales, not the sales of Mercedes per say. I only mentioned sales after you tried to affix that tired and untrue "exclusivity" label/excuse to lackluster sales. I most certainly did because when a car company openly states that they want more sales are rapidly expanding their model range to fill niches left and right and someone mentions "exclusivity" it sends the BS meter in the red. The bottom line is that Audi wants more sales otherwise they wouldn't be expanding their lineup from xxx many models now to xxxxxx many by 2012 or whatever year they plan to sell a million cars a year, uh....like MB and BMW do. Poof, there goes your "exclusivity" and to think it was of Audi's doing, on purpose.

A lane change test? Are we allowing soccer Moms to chose the testing criteria?

If only they'd dare attempt an emergency manuver at 60 milers per hour.

Now look who's picking criteria from what helps the argument.

Yep, like I said before we're on the same boat, different decks. I unlike you though don't nearly look at the Audi in such a bad light as you do the Mercedes. I like them both.

Are you going to the Detroit show? I'm jealous

Yep, I'll be there opening day!

M

dhamilton · January 2007

You got me, the Benz outperforms the Audi. The lane change test, and the blistering acceleration is enough proof for me.

brightness04 · January 2007

Without gap insurance, leasing would just be the same as buying in the event of an accident. Sure you'd be on the hook as the lease holder in an accident without gap insurance, but you'd equally be on the hook if you already owned the car (or borrowed and therefore now upside down even after regular insurance payment); in other words, you'd be fully on the hook for the whole car the moment the check for the full car was cut. If an accident takes place within a year or two, and the insurance company pays less than what you paid for the car (or borrowed for the car); you are already paying for the bad luck and lack of gap insurance at full face value. In any case, gap insurance policy underwriter makes a profit, too; so the expectation value of early accident is apparently quite low. If one really hates the co-variance, leasing with gap insurance is a huge advantage; buying is like the accident already happened, and no gap insurance is there.

designman · January 2007

First off, BMW has to get its act together with their performance formula with the M5. A high-revving V10 is not what the car needed in addition to the sack of electronic tricks. I could see how anyone would be turned off by it especially since the E39 M5 is still on my must-have list. Its despicable that this car, a BMW mind you, which weighs substantially less than the other two, and which has a 6-speed MT cant cruise to a first place finish. How the heck they had the temerity to put the same transmission as the old M5 in addition to not being able to disable DSC is beyond me. Im thinking this had to do with to things. Number one, they have an agenda with SMG and they probably didnt want to upstage it. The second thing is that the car wasnt designed for a manual transmission to begin with and it might have taken more time to design and produce it accordingly. I was down on this car to begin with and the manual version does nothing to improve it in my mind.

With regard to the S6. Sure its a pretty good looker in and out, but did it need a V10 to pull a 5.4 second 0-60 in addition to those other split times? Its a sad day when a heavy car like this with an extreme front weight bias beats the flagship BMW performance sedan. Maybe a lot of this has to do with that C&D crew also, who as dhamilton mentioned often winds up yielding poor performance results in comparison to other rags. It scores nicely on price and the merits of its steering but Im not so sure its handling deserves raves.

Enter the E63 AMG. Its easy to see how it could win by default. Ill borrow a cliché from the sports worldit seems they made the fewest mistakes. They always had a good engine formula for luxury car power and they tweaked the engine toward the sport side. Throw in the improved suspension and there ya go. The MBs airmatic suspension and monolithic power obviously were enough of a one-two punch to get the job done.

Another MB winner. I really dont see where there is much room for complaining about it, at least on paper. Maybe if I drove all three of them I would have a different opinion. But we are car yentas here thus we dont always get the opportunity, especially with this trio. Has anyone else done so? Heh, heh, commence yapping.

Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little
Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, pick a little more!

;-)

lexusguy · January 2007

With regard to the S6. Sure its a pretty good looker in and out, but did it need a V10 to pull a 5.4 second 0-60 in addition to those other split times? Its a sad day when a heavy car like this with an extreme front weight bias beats the flagship BMW performance sedan. Maybe a lot of this has to do with that C&D crew also, who as dhamilton mentioned often winds up yielding poor performance results in comparison to other rags. It scores nicely on price and the merits of its steering but Im not so sure its handling deserves raves.

Each of the cars I think has a different buyer in mind. The M5 is a track day car. Thats where the SMG actually works. Its not really a daily driver. The old M5 could do both, so I guess that's where BMW screwed up.

The S6, while down on power compared to the others, is a great all rounder, as are most Audis. Track performance may not be up to the M5, at least in the dry, but it will hold its own and beat the Mercedes.

The Benz is a road rocket, for flying down the autobhan at 180mph. The E will certainly do better than an enormous car like the CL65 on a track, but the regular Es are the least sporting of the German trio, and I don't think AMG treatment changes that.

blckislandguy · January 2007

Just came back from a Boston to Montreal weekend trip driving a '89 Bentley Eight. The car was in impeccable condition with 200K on the clock. The big Bentley's handling was superb with a great interior even after almost 20 years and classic good looks. I had a look at the suspension components and they look like they belong on a 3/4 ton pickup: beefy and pre-cad cam rugged. Sure the car has had good maintenance over the years but it drove like it was almost new and purpose built for this kind of trip. We cruised at 85 MPH down the Vermont-a-bahn with tight rack & pinion steering and impressive pre-zenon driving lights that cut through the drizzle like C130 landing lights. The Goodyear Eagle LS's ran well and quietly. They are a police pursuit tire with the required load and speed ratings. The original Avons are now too hard to find and expensive in this unusual 255x65x15 size. The only hint that the car was this old was the abysmal sterio. Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.

lexusguy · January 2007

Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.

Who wants the same car for 20 years? The idea of keeping anything other than a house for that long is so 20th century.

tagman · January 2007

I just returned from those ten days with the wife's relatives, and I'll admit it's GOOD to be home again.

My father in-law drives a pickup truck, and at some point during a conversation, he mentioned that he never uses cruise control because it wrecks his gas mileage. I just nodded and smiled, but quite frankly, there is no way that makes sense to me. I've always thought that cruise control is primarily for convenience and not mpg's, but that it likely offers a steadier throttle and therefore improved mpg's anyway.

If anyone here knows how cruise control can wreck gas mileage, I'd sure like to know.

BTW, I saw the pics of the Mercedes "ocean" drive 4-door and then I saw those pics of a Chrysler 300C cabrio. But then I saw some kind of MB called a CLR600? Is DC suffering from an identity crisis or something?

Also... What's going on at Toyota with a new good-looking FAST hybrid sports car for only $30K? Is this thing for real?

I also read that Porsche will bring direct injection to its 911 next year. Of course they deliberately waited until I bought the '07 to offer it on the '08.

Good luck to merc at the Detroit show... lucky guy.

TagMan

merc1 · January 2007

You got me, the Benz outperforms the Audi. The lane change test, and the blistering acceleration is enough proof for me.

It is the assertion that a AMG Benz (especially the E63)can't handle is what I have a problem with. I have no problem admitting the Audi handles better per the the MT test. That is what they found. Which is more important, more speed or better handling? Either way the M5 doesn't own this class anymore.

M

merc1 · January 2007

The Benz is a road rocket, for flying down the autobhan at 180mph. The E will certainly do better than an enormous car like the CL65 on a track, but the regular Es are the least sporting of the German trio, and I don't think AMG treatment changes that.

True, but the thing is the differences are so small after the E's transformation from "55" to "63". This about it not being able to handle is just absurd. There is no way C&D would rave about its handling and agility if it weren't so, considering how quick they are to flunk a car based on handling.

M

merc1 · January 2007

Its unfortunate that a guy couldn't buy an S550, maintain it with Mobil1 and some TLC, and then expect to get the same 20 years of trouble free life out of it.

Why couldn't someone do that if they wanted too? Your Bentley friend is most likely putting everything under the "maintanence" rather than the "problem" category, especially with a Bentley from that era.

M

merc1 · January 2007

Number one, they have an agenda with SMG and they probably didnt want to upstage it. The second thing is that the car wasnt designed for a manual transmission to begin with and it might have taken more time to design and produce it accordingly. I was down on this car to begin with and the manual version does nothing to improve it in my mind.

It was all of those things and that they aren't selling it in Europe so the volume isn't going to be too big so they weren't about to spend a whole lot of money to do it "right". An extremely rare case of BMW half-[non-permissible content removed] doing something.

M

brightness04 · January 2007

The car may feel okay to someone who appreciates the fact that it carries a Bentley badge on the outside. For someone who does not care about cachet, it's doubtful so much weight riding on 65 series 15" tires makes the car any more comfortable in reality than a Lincoln Towncar or even a new Crown Vic.

merc1 · January 2007

Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe

Some of the details of the build/craftsmanship on this car are just sick!

M

lexusguy · January 2007

Some of the details of the build/craftsmanship on this car are just sick!

I would certainly hope so, for the amount of money involved.

hpowders · January 2007

I would expect no less from a BMW affiliated company. :shades:

dhamilton · January 2007

I get ya. My "extreme" statement followed your. "The Audi is outperformed" The Benz handles nicely, I'll give you that, but it doesn't outperform on anything other than acceleration. Cool?

Bottom line, "the M5 doesn't rule the segment anymore" I agree.

LG, yeah, the rules are going to change when the new MLP platform pushes all that weight back.

RS6, I hate being a "wait for it" guy, but the RS6 is going to be one ridiculous piece of kit.

2001gs430 · January 2007

(7) If I were to take that 328i deal, it would be about 1.5% of my monthly income.

Glad to hear that a Lexus supporter doing well financially.

I will be consulting you regarding lease vs buy for my next car acquisition later this year

ctsang · January 2007

2006 top 10 manufacturers in retaining customers as reported by J.D. Powers:

Toyota -- 63.9%
Lexus -- 63.2%
Honda -- 60.3%
BMW -- 56.5%
Scion -- 56.3%
Cadillac -- 55.5%
Chevrolet -- 55.3%
Mercedes-Benz -- 53.6%
Ford -- 53.3%
Hyundai -- 51.6%

syswei · January 2007

If a Toyota customer "moves up" to Lexus, I wonder if that counts as a non-retained customer?

lexusguy · January 2007

Any idea what Benz's rating was pre '00? I'm wondering if the "dark" years have affected that in any significant way.

syswei · January 2007

MB did better in the first study, back in 2003:
link title

tagman · January 2007

This is interesting. A genuine purchase incentive that has nothing to do with leasing. Imagine that!

click here for the article

Maserati claims it is a one time offer. Don't all rush at once.

The real deal-breaker, however, is that the offer is on the '06 Q's... obviously to make way for the '07's much-improved automatic transmission.

TagMan

blckislandguy · January 2007

Yep, some guys like brick Tudors, tassle loafers, blue blazers and a portfolio that is tilted toward the return of the principal. Other guys are into Armani, car lease deals, and houses right out of AD.

This is why they have horse races (and on-line forums).

dewey · January 2007

Dewey, I'm very surprised, for someone who claims to be a working pro in the financial industry, you would even make these arguments, much less without studying the numbers that I presented.

Well, well aint that a shocker. Yes I am a financial professional who makes a livelihood in picking stocks.
Unbelievable isnt it? So since we want to talk numbers, why dont we? Unfortunately the numbers you have provided are BUNK .

You state the following:

1) That's more than 8.5 years, when you are finally coming out even on a per month cost basis with someone who is about to turn in his fourth new car in that same time span.

Oops have you not forgotten something in that comparison of yours above? You've heard of resale value, haven't your? I realized a 35 percent resale value on my 8 year old BMW. In otherwords your breakeven analysis is 35 percent off in my particular case. YIKES!!!! Brightness this is a bit of an embarrassing oversight on your part dont you think?

2). I stated the following: The lease deal you are mentioning above may not apply to the car that someone actually wants especially a hot selling car

You stated the following: The same residual applies to every model of the car, regardless what configuration you pick; in fact

I was talking about your self made capitalizations not residuals. And in the case of certain cars there is no way you are going to get a 92 percent capitalization (not in your wildest dreams).

2) That's assuming not having any major problem at all, which is unrealistic for an 8+ year old BMW.

Nope that is no assumption. That is based on my actual experience of 8 year BMW ownership.

3) 1) ever heard of gap insurance? It's like $40 a year; some leases include gap insurance.

Yes I have. But I did not include gap insurance in my prior post since I did not know they were so cheap (in fact I found out here in Canada gap insurance for some brands are included in the lease). I was not updated on the low quotes available for gap insurance since Ive never leased a car before. Shocking eh! Imagine a financial professional not knowing that?

4) different residual rates are available for different mileage allowances; average mileage by definition is applicable to most drivers. In case you did not notice, BMW and MB are heavily skewed towards the prosperous urban areas on the coasts (for Canada that means lake coast and Pacific coast, within 75 miles of US border), not the great interior where people actually do drive a lot of miles

The mileage for that BMW lease you used as an example was set at 10K miles per year. Let me inform you that people do not have to live in the great interior to drive beyond that mileage. Annually I drive far beyond 10K miles a year. And I do hope you are informed enough to know that high mileage can kill the benefits of a lease.

5) (4) but why? if getting a new one every 27 months is cheaper? That also cures the urge to dive into hot deals like the 335i prematurely at MSRP before M3 comes along and depress 335i prices. Your near-100% MSRP over the next 8years (96 months) can not begin to compare to someone who picks up a 328i for 27mo at 18% MSRP, then a 335i for another 27mo at 18%MSRP, then another 338i (with higher boost), then a 340i, all assuming average driving pattern

I dont care? I look forward to driving my car many years ahead. Why would I sell my 335i and expose myself to the high depreciation costs through leasing or buying a brand new 09 340i? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Although I do salute Howard who likes driving a new car every two years. I repeat that such a choice is a lifestyle choice not a shrewd financial choice.

6) Brightness what on earth do you know about Warren Buffett? Sounds like you are mixing up Warren Buffet's lifestyle with the lifestyle of an Arab Sheikh named Abdul Al Beffett.

7) Well, buying hot cars at MSRP certainly does not jive with shrewed money management,

As I said I think you are mixing up life style choices with financial choices. Who the hell buys luxury car for shrwed money management reasons anyways? I buy my cars strictly for pleasure.

merc1 · January 2007

Yep we're talking about 350-400K for this thing, only 100 per year.

M

merc1 · January 2007

I get ya. My "extreme" statement followed your. "The Audi is outperformed" The Benz handles nicely, I'll give you that, but it doesn't outperform on anything other than acceleration. Cool?

Nope, because that isn't totally the case. C&D seems to think the E is more agile too, while the Audi has more grip. I still haven't seen the MT test yet either.

M

dewey · January 2007

Welcome back Tagman.

Thanks but no thanks. What is a performance car with a compromised transmission? Not much in my opinion.

lexusguy · January 2007

Thanks but no thanks. What is a performance car with a compromised transmission? Not much in my opinion.

Maserati needs it to sell cars. Their biggest competition is the 750i and the A8, both of which are automatics. If people hate the SMG in a car like the M5, they're really going to hate it in the QP. If they get it right, a conventional autobox can still be a lot of fun (Jag XK) while being smooth as butter.

dewey · January 2007

If people hate the SMG in a car like the M5, they're really going to hate it in the QP. If they get it right, a conventional autobox can still be a lot of fun (Jag XK) while being smooth as butter.

As pointed out by Designman and others it appears even perfection has its shortfalls. There is a whiff of negativity about a manual BMW M5 (I never thought I would see that day in my lifetime).

As quoted by Automobile Magazine:

, BMW took away the ability to fully disable the stability control system. Many enthusiasts will find that unacceptable, and there will be no Ford Shelby GT500-style smoky burnouts at stoplights.

OUCH! Pretty damaging IMO. I used to ridicule the Lexus IS and GS for VDIM. Now the BMW M5's stability control system cannot be disabled :sick: Oh well at least I can disable the stability control in my two current BMWs (Sigh of relief).

It appears the Development Chief of the M Division is miffed with us North Americans for demanding a stick:

Gerhard Richter, the development chief of BMW's M division, practically gnashed his teeth in frustration when he told us last spring that the BMW M5 would be made available with a six-speed manual transmission in 2007. He knew that rabid BMW purists in America had forced the M division to make the six-speed available as a no-cost option for the U.S. version, even though this transmission makes the M5 slower than the car with the standard, seven-speed, electrohydraulic-activated, sequential-manual gearbox (SMG).
And Richter is right: the M5 is slower and even clumsier with a conventional six-speed manual gearbox and a clutch pedal. But the six-speed M5 is also better to drive in almost every way.

SOURCE: AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE

designman · January 2007

Also from Automobile:

"Surprisingly, the six-speed's clutch action is as light as you'll find in a BMW 3-series..."

Heresy and pure sabotage. One of the great things about the M cars is (was?) their heavy clutches. They're trying to force SMG on us. Either that or they're just not thinking clearly or taking the market for suckers. I will never buy a car with an automatic clutch. If I choose to rattle my teeth it's done with my left foot.

dhamilton · January 2007

OK feel free to step on that banana peel of a lane change test. Track tests proof this out. Your clinging to a ridiculous lane change test? Your a better car guy than that Merc.

tagman · January 2007

Welcome back Tagman.

Thanks, Dewey... it's good to be back.

Thanks but no thanks. What is a performance car with a compromised transmission? Not much in my opinion.

Exactly my point. I knew you'd understand it. But, especially with the '07's solution staring the '06 in the face.

TagMan

dewey · January 2007

I am amazed at the persistence of these E AMG vs. M5 vs. S6 arguments? All three are turkeys when compared to an overpriced Audi RS4 which is far cheaper than the E AMG, M5 and S6. I am confident that the new BMW M3 will beat the RS4 and at the same time the Bimmer will be offered at a price that does not border on the side of RS4 ridiculousness.

If you want luxury then buy a heavy oversized MB S550 /S600 or even a Audi A8. If you want performance in a sedan than buy something that is nimbler, lighter and smaller like a Audi RS4 or BMW M3(although these vehicles are not exactly light).

dewey · January 2007

Video of the Jaguar CX-f:

JAGUAR CX-F

Nearer to production CX-f was recently spotted:

Winding Road

Pardon my last post: I meant to write oversized turkeys not just turkeys.

dewey · January 2007

Funny Rolls Royce advertisement.
Funniest one is a Toyota ad from Latin America.

World's Funniest Car Commercials

merc1 · January 2007

Here I am thinking you had a point to begin with. I'm looking at the MT comparo and in your precious figure 8 test the Audi did a whole 5 tenths of a second better than the E63, yet they both produced the same amount of G's. Talk about making something out of absolutely nothing. Talk about a ridiculous, you trumped this nonsense up to be some great difference and it ISN'T. I do see a 9 tenths of a second difference in their 0-60 numbers and almost 10 mph difference in their 1/4 mile traps speeds. You know good and well that if there are any "major" differences between the performance of these 2 it is in acceleration, not your figure 8 or the lane change test. Braking the Audi has a slight advantage, about 3-4 feet in both comparos.

What nonsense you're tried to trump up here. You're clinging to a figure 8 test that show about the same amount of difference between the two cars as C&D's lane change test did, but I'm clinging to some nonsense? Pot, meet kettle.

M

dewey · January 2007

Merc,

I regretfully have to inform you that you lost our MB E vs. BMW 5 2006 sales bet. Oh and by the way how did that brochure taste after that other MB S Cabrio bet of ours ? At least I am glad you are still alive. :P

During Dec. Audi sales grew 39.7 percent
During Dec. BMW sales grew 21 percent.

What the hell is wrong with these buyers? Have they never read CR or JD Power before? Dont they know that Lexus is number one in reliability? I just dont understand it? :confuse:

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