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High End Luxury Cars

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  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ”With the PASM system it didn't rattle my teeth like the 996 Cab I drove…”

    Glad you mentioned it because this has been festering with me. It’s amazing how the Carrera is evolving toward techno-luxury sport and forsaking the visceral, elemental attraction of the sports car. It has passed a threshold that I am willing to accept. I went shopping for a 911 at the end of the year and I finally got to drive a couple of 997 setups with and without PASM, both C2 and C2S and was thoroughly let down. I haven’t driven a GT3 yet but I think this might be where one has to go to get the characteristics of the 911 as we once knew it.

    Equally disappointing is the recognition the 911 still gets in the press. They allude to its refinement but the writers seem reluctant to be overly critical which is testament, I think, to the 911 icon and its racing success in previous years. Then again, it still sprints, darts and wails like hardly any other.

    However, it might be an older 911 for me and I have yet to decide which way I want to go. As far as I’m concerned, a sports car must rattle one’s teeth and have uncompromising feedback from the road. What with active steering, the level of power assist in the steering, the electronic damping of the suspension which is necessary to compensate for these low-profile tires, there’s a disconnect with this 997. The mechanical damping in the non-PASM version has also been softened, courtesy of this low-profile bling scourge.

    After following Porsche and driving many of them since my first ride in one in the 70s, I never thought I would come to the day when I wouldn’t want a new Carrera. I am willing to give it more test drives, especially if they can give me a loaner, but I really think this day has come. And to think I was pretty ready to buy. It just felt too good getting back into my 986, feeling my teeth rattle and having every road undulation speak to me. I certainly didn’t feel this way after driving a 996 loaner. I was reluctant to give it up.

    First BMW succumbs to the lure of technology with all of its illusions, and now this. What a shame in my opinion.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh ok, you had a W140 S420 right?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    IS-F and LF-A

    Interestingly, the IS-F looks to be substantially slower 0-60 than the hybrid FT-HS described here.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm looking at the Lexus concepts. The IS-F looks to be a non-event to put it lightly. A 0-60 time of "less than 4.9 secs" puts its performance at the same level as the IS350. That doesn't make sense so I expect a 4.5 sec 0-60 time in real world testing or else the IS-F is pointless.
    The side scoops are very fast and furious looking.

    Now the LF-A is really shaping up, there is some real potential there. It looks really slick and once the details are finalized for production they could really be on to something.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The side scoops are very fast and furious looking.

    Wow, I absolutely hate it. The IS350 is a good looking car, this is not. It reminds me of the Volvo S60R which also has all of that unnecessary body kit junk to disguise the fact that its not that good. Why couldn't they take a page from the S4 or M3? Flare the fenders a bit, darken the headlamps, and give it some mean looking wheels. Leave the rest alone. Let the performance speak for itself.

    What were they thinking with those vertical stacked exhausts? Absolutely hideous. At least that part can be changed relatively easily.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh ok, you had a W140 S420 right?

    Yep, a '93.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    It may have possibly been me in which you were inferring to.

    I had a '91 560 SEL classic. Damn I miss that car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah it does look a little overdone. You would think it was supercharged or turbocharged going by that huge bulge in the hood. I guess that is to clear the V8 and pass the European pedestrian regs. Of course I'll be looking for this car this weekend.

    Wow you had an early W140, a Panzer.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh ok, got it. This particular 420SEL is in just unbelievable shape, very tempting.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The GT3 is a very harsh suspension that you would likely not enjoy at all on a regular basis. The PASM offers both normal and sport settings. I've been driving this Carrera S regularly, and I can tell you that there is a definite difference between the normal and sport settings. I've driven previous Carreras and years ago even owned a previous generation Carrera. You know my serious driving tastes, so I can assure you that the sport setting is stiff enough to the point that I often prefer to turn it off and enjoy the normal setting. I don't have an issue with PASM, and I've driven this car hard. There is always something to nit pick at I suppose, but the latest 911 has also answered a big complaint about the interior refinement. It is absolutely the best interior they have ever produced.

    Sure the GT3 will rattle you silly, but I would never want that on a regular basis. I tried that with the Lotus Elise, all the while thinking the Porsche was too soft, but eventually I got realistic again. The PASM sport setting is more than adequate to get anyone's adrenaline rushing... and on a regular basis to boot.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus may have a car that actually makes it onto my hot list. This LF-A concept is really shaping up to be something.

    image

    image

    Dare I say there is some Porsche or Aston-Martin (gulp!) in it. Just like I said when the original concept was shown, the proportions are right, the only thing that needs work is the front snout. I actually like the rear cooling ducts. Now come on Lexus don't muck up this when production time comes!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    LG there is definitely some disfigurement going on here:

    image

    image

    The hood bulge is no doubt because of the Euro pedestrian regs, but it tells me that Lexus didn't initially plan on a V8 for the IS.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Here's a nice gallery for those who haven't seen it:

    gallery
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh yes, with a few tweaks this could turn out to be the first "hot" Lexus.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    We'll get you to buy a Lexus someday! And I'll buy an MB.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Anything could happen, but I think this LF-A is going to be a little bit beyond my reach. :D

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    You're a young guy compared to most of us, I think. Who knows what will happen down the road, financially? Or maybe a used one will be in your future.

    I am wondering where they'll price it. I think just over 100k would be a smart way to do it, if they want to sell reasonable volumes.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I am wondering where they'll price it. I think just over 100k would be a smart way to do it, if they want to sell reasonable volumes.

    Good question. I think you're right, somewhere in the 911 C4S\Turbo\V8 Vantage level would work. They definitely won't pull any buyers away from a Gallardo or F430.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What do you guys think? Who's going to win this one?

    image
    image
    image
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're a young guy compared to most of us, I think. Who knows what will happen down the road, financially? Or maybe a used one will be in your future.

    True. :D

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Just on looks I'll take the Lexus. Did I say that?

    The Acura has some interesting lines too, but the Lexus is much closer to production. Then there is the Lexus interior compared to an "Acura".

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Makes me think of the Batmobile. :P
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Acura has some interesting lines too, but the Lexus is much closer to production. Then there is the Lexus interior compared to an "Acura".

    Ah, but I wonder who's going to do the suspension tuning for Acura. Ayrton Senna did the last one. Lexus isn't exactly known for world class suspensions.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I would have to have PASM and drive it mostly in sport mode. I would label the button “For Potholes” in reference to normal mode. Have you driven either a 996 GT3 or 997 GT3? I have read posts by people who had the concern about the harsh suspension because it’s the party line, but after driving the GT3 they say the harshness is overrated and want it. It also has the bullet proof engine with dry sump, higher redline, and more power. But it's the steering and handling qualities that I seek. Of course the new GT3 is very different also.

    I have my work cut out seeking older Porsches. The ones that are at the top of my list are the 993 Turbo and 993 C2S. I could also see myself going back to the 80s and working myself forward, perhaps a different one each year.

    Bottom line, Tag, the new Porsches are different, very different. Too bad because it's still one of the best-looking vehicles around and they stayed the course with styling. I’m glad you like yours and hope your back is better. I really think I’ve reached my tolerance threshold with technology one-upsmanship among the manufacturers. At least I’m not one of those who say the 356 was the last real Porsche.

    ;-)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I really think I’ve reached my tolerance threshold with technology one-upsmanship among the manufacturers.

    That's a very big statement. In the real world it's a two-edged sword. On the one hand there are the benefits, but on the other, it explains why guys like me would try the Lotus Elise or Exige. You are an enthusiast no doubt, a purist at heart.. and that's OK in my book.

    At the end of the day, we can only choose from what is available in the marketplace, and pray that something out there satisfies most of our driving preferences.

    Hpowders gets the performance and seating capacity and room for luggage out of his 5-Series. Blkhemi gets a car for every day of the week or every mood he's in. Some of us get a combination of luxury sedan and sports car and perhaps an SUV to accomplish all our needs.

    I'm hopeful that you will find the "right" vehicle for your sports car need, without too much compromise.

    Truth be told, there are days I miss that Lotus in a certain sense, because as great as this Carrera S is, the Lotus was like a laser shot to the senses. Total and pure exhileration.

    Now, if only there was a way to transform the Porsche into the Lotus once or twice a week, because on the other five or six days it is a perfect 10. See what I mean?

    Good luck with your quest.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm guessing that the Acura might be a 2+2 configuration. But the Acura is very early in the game to determine it's final look. The Lexus looks more muscular and better proportioned, IMO, and the Acura looks almost a bit too sleek and slippery, at least so far. Overall, I think I prefer the appearance of the Lexus, but I sure have my concerns about the front end and especially that triangular exhaust.

    With regards to the IS-F... no thanks, thumbs down, IMO. It will be interesting to see the comparisons to the 3-Series however.

    BTW, that Toyota FT-HS hybrid sports car in the $30K range could be a real winner.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Resale values (acutal used car prices) for BMWs are among the highest in the industry. The high residual are a product of those high actural resale values. Oh yes BMW subsidizes their residuals like any other auto firms. But because of the higher reslae values for BMW their residual are higher than other auto firms. The high demand for used BMWs are what makes high residuals possible

    That set of statements may have been valid at some historical time on some specific (non-HELC) models, just like "buying usually work out better than lease," but not at all valid at current time on some (or the majority of)specific models from that particular mfr that are the purview of this forum.

    The auto industry as a whole sees less than 10-20% of cars going off the lot as leases; however, BMW and MB see over 60% of their cars going off the lot as leases. That phenomenom alone should tell us that BMW and MB are subsidizing leases far more than the rest of the industry on average. The overwhelming majority of BMW's and MB's are returned at lease end. That alone should tell us that there is a significant gap between lease residual vs. how much the used car is actually worth when the private owner tries to sell it at that time. Either that, or BMW/MB drivers have terrible financial sense. I tend to have more faith in BMW and MB drivers's ability in optimizing their own finances. Large number of independent decision makers tend to reflect the underlying cost/benefit very well, just like a disproportionate ratio of the same result is a good indicator of the coin or dice being loaded.

    BMW 7 series, which is the purview of this forum, never had good resale value. BMW 3 series historically had good resale because they were hardly discounted until the last few months of previous model runs; that is, a few months out of a typical 72-month model run; BMW has 6-year model cycles. That was a very unique market situation. E90 changed all that. E90 has not been able to maintain selling average close to MSRP for even the entire first model year. Discounting started as little as 6-9 months after E90 was introduced. The lease residuals have so far pretended it's still the good old days. The lease residuals on 7 and 5 series don't even jive with historical realities. It's going by some kind of historical BMW fleet average, which was heavily skewed by the historical high resale of previous generations of 3-series because 3-series outsell 5 and 7 combined, several times over.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Enough please. You already promised...

    By the way for everyone's benefit, this is the problem with "I'll make one more comment and then I won't say anything else." Someone wants to respond to that with "one more commment" then there's a reply with just "one more comment" to that.

    That's why I have to draw a line in the sand. And I'm doing that here. No more leasing debates here.

    :shades:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    It's been said here before but,

    Honda is an engineering/racing company, Toyota is a manufacturing company.

    Obviously they both play in the other sand box, but, on tradition, I'll take the Acura, and go with their racing heritage to get it right.

    FWIW, I'll go with Lexus to get a barkocruiser.

    All of this could blow up in my face of course.

    Actually, they'll probably both do some things right, and be pretty close.

    Still, my nod goes to the Acura for the traditional enthusiast. [They'll probably offer a proper stick]

    And the Lexus gets the nod for the "recent lottery enthusiast"
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Honda is an engineering/racing company, Toyota is a manufacturing company

    Never thought about it that way, but what you state is bascially true. Of course they both do engineering and manufacturing, but they both have a slant in either of those respective areas.

    M
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    If it weren't for my uncle Vern's old 300SD w/only 29,000 miles, I'd say that is the most reserved example of that era of S classes, hands down.

    That car, on average, only saw maybe 6k miles a year, WOW!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I'm inching a bit further into making my decision on the new conv.

    This comes as the guy who wants to buy the S600 is really ready to buy it. He's sweeten the deal by 2k if I can get out of it by the beginning of next week.

    Jaguar has the greystone metallic XKR that I want in stock. So does MB and Porsche, altho Porsche's Turbo convertible was very exhilarating today in it's Super Red paint. The blistering performance also left my eyes with a matching hue of red. And also, there was an '06 SL65 in the showroom in the usual silver hue for "only" $129k. Very tempting folks.

    Very close gang, very close.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Judging from how little room is left for the wheels to give any amount of comfort, and also looking at that gaudy bulge in the hood, Lexus will never green light this car into production as it is.

    Why not take the S4 or M3 approach to it all? Give it just a little dash of appeal on the outside and all glitz and glamour under the hood and underside of the car.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Ummm, choices, choices. My vote is for the red Porsche Turbo.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What model year is that Porsche Turbo Cab?

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ah, but I wonder who's going to do the suspension tuning for Acura. Ayrton Senna did the last one. Lexus isn't exactly known for world class suspensions.

    All valid points, but there is something more alluring about the Lexus to me at this point.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I can't keep up with whats going on with you and your cars anymore! Do you still have the S8? Selling the S600? Why? If you still have the S8 and don't sell the S600 then I'd say go for either the Jag or the Porsche, that way you have a well rounded garage.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Merc, your in to design a lot more than me that's for sure.

    blkhemi, how's the wife enjoying the S8?

    Also, how can you expect me to do my job of wishing I was your prodigal son, when you have stopped talking about the Aston?
    In order for me to properly continue in this fantasy land, I'm going to have to insist that the Aston be reconsidered.

    Back to merc, and design. Being such a design guy, wouldn't the Aston be your first choice for blkhemi?

    LG, what do you think of the Jag concept?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well design is first with me, but it isn't the only thing going either. I didn't know he was considering and Aston, I must have missed that? I still like the DB9 more than the V8 Vantage.

    Yeah I find it nearly impossible to get with an ugly or dull looking car.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That is quite a tough decision you've got there. I'd take an XKR over a new SL550 any day of the week, but the SL65 is a completely different animal. I think I could get past the been there, done that looks for that kind of performance. The poor AJ-V8 just can't compete, no matter how much boost they throw at it. The XKR-R might be a different story, but MB will probably have an all new SL by the time it shows up (if it ever does). I have to assume that the days of loooong SL production runs are over.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The C-XF? So far I think it looks pretty good, though I need to see more of it. The only place where they really lost me is that square mouth that it has, like some kind of sucker fish. Definitely worse than Audi's Big Mouth Bass, which I've grown to tolerate. I think it was a very smart idea for them to come up with a new name for what is the first truly "new" Jag sedan in a VERY long time. Much better to say the S-type is dead, this is the new Jag, rather than this is the new S-type.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Hmmmm...I see the LS 460 was just named International Car of the Year for 2007. It actually won in 2 categories, the second being Most Respected Car of the Year, whatever that means.

    I knew it was only a matter of time before these awards started piling up. This is probably the finest automobile ever built, by far. Of course this is just my opinion, but my opinion is extremely important to me. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • mdchachimdchachi Member Posts: 275
    I have a quick question... do the voice recognition systems in any of these vehicles allow dialog-style interaction? By that, I mean do you have to press a "talk" button each time you speak to the system or are there any systems where you need only press the talk button once, at the start of a dialog (like OnStar). Thanks.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I could be corrected on this, but I do believe that the voice command systems all require the push of a button just prior to issuing the command, or replying to a question.

    TagMan
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    In December Lexus dealers delivered 3865 LS Series to customers, the most of any import luxury marquee.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I've noticed them starting to refer in ads to the E350 as a "sport sedan". Isn't that a new approach for them? Maybe they're trying to emphasize sport a bit more, as is Lexus?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've noticed them starting to refer in ads to the E350 as a "sport sedan". Isn't that a new approach for them? Maybe they're trying to emphasize sport a bit more, as is Lexus?

    Well for the first time in years the E has an optional sports packace that is more than just cosmetics so that is what they've been harping about. It is also a no-cost option so most of the 07' E's I've seen have it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well Detroit opens to the public on Saturday so I'll see you guys in a few days!!!!!

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Enjoy! Looking forward to the annual Merc1 show report!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Congratulations Houdini, and all Lexus fans.

    A deserving award for a very respected automobile
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