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Comments
We had to ditch one of them, and the S600 surprisingly was the sacrficial lamb. Didn't want to do it trust me, but it was the right thing to do at the right time, especially when there is a buyer ready to plop 140k in your lap.
So, it's down to the XKR or the SL550. Will no doubt have to order either, so there is no rush. I'm just completely torn over the both of them.
The SL550. Prestige. Heritage. Respect.
XKR. Pedigree. Sexy. Desirable. History.
Now do you get my drift?
I really hate to differ with lg on this, because he is one of the most knowledgable guys on this forum, but since you are after our final opinions... I'm going to give you mine.
So, as I said, if it were truly my own money, I'd buy the icon... the Mercedes Benz SL550... final answer.
TagMan
To me, its not even a contest. The Jag says "I eat SL550s for breakfast". All that said of course, I already bought my XK. In another 3-4 years or so I'll be trading up to the XKR. This is going to be your car, not mine, so get whichever one fits you the best.
The SL's hardtop is sleek, unlike the canvas of the Jag.
and the front end is much more distinctive. The SL is still a gorgeous headturner, there's no question about that.
To be perfectly honest with you, the real problem I have with the appearance of the Jag is the snout.
The Jag's snout looks like a catfish.
The front bumber assembly looks huge somehow and the seam between that huge bumper and the hood is too obvious for my taste. Otherwise the Jag is beautiful. Overall, I think the Jag is a beautiful car, but when it comes to spending the money, I'd put it on the SL, without a doubt.
It's blkhemi's purchase, as we know, and I can guarantee you that I'll support him and congratulate him no matter what he decides, that's for sure.
TagMan
TagMan
In particular, the Volt concept is probably the best iteration of all-electric type vehicles ever. It's all electric, it does require plug-in after intermittently, but has a regeneration motor to prevent outages.
All else, from the new Silverado to the new '08 Malibu, the Vette SS(650hp) should be witness enough that they've really started to conform to the public opinion on what they should do.
They are even starting to abandon the very venerable but super-old pushrod engines and 4-speed autoboxes(thankfully). They've got a new replacement for all of the pushrod V6's(the 3.6L High-Feature engine will in effect replace all car V-6's, and will be enlarged to 3.8L liters to fit the new RWD Impala with 310-hp) and V8 engines. The Northstar will be replaced with a 5.0L V8 that makes roughly 400hp, naturally.
But the shocker for that engine is that it will increase in bore to 6.0L to compete with, you guessed, the big bores from MB. And along with that shocker is the next gen big Caddy. It is said to go RWD/AWD and will now compete with the big boys, altho it will play value leader with the Lexus LS wil prices to start in the low $60k's. It will use the 400hp motor as the base, but will essentially be available in Sport and "V" models with 505hp and 600hp, respectively, from the all-new 6.0L "DOHC"(not OHV) V-8's.
Now with all of this said, will this be enough to get people to buy GM again. For sure it's all great on paper, but will there be fire with that flame, particularly with Cadillac's resurfacing upmarket again? If the way they're morphing the Corvette and the new awesome(and some think 3-Series beating) '08 CTS is any indication, they may be on to something, hopefully BIG....... I personally wish them well..
Why? I think the Japanese have become fat and happy and are taking the U.S. market for granted now just like G.M. did in the past. They don't send their best cars here and we have to settle for what they send. For the last few years their reliability seems to be going downhill and the cars themselves have become cookie cutter images of each other and somewhat uninspiring, at least to me.
Some of the newer G.M. vehicles actually look better to me than their Japanese counterparts. The latest model Accord and Camry are just plain ugly to me whereas the Pontiac G6 and the Chevy Impala look pretty good. Who knows, maybe we are in for a real revolution. A little competition never hurts.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Mercedes, not so much. That top has to go somewhere.
Please remind me again about the SL's "distinctive" front end? I know one of these is an SL, and cost twice as much as the other...
The Japanese(particularly Toyota) have become to big, to fast. Quality has slipped and now the bread and butter Accords and Camry's are now being hunted. With new Camry's quality woes and the Accord's aging design and useless brakes(this may change for '08), GM has a chance to slip a few good punches in.
Now selling $65k-$100k Cadillacs may prove to be a tough task, altho the average transaction for an Escalade is $62k, and it is the best selling big-guy SUV.
As I said before, I wish them all well, but won't count out the nifty Japanese(and Koreans) with their brilliance if GM can't get their act together, quickly. But judging from the new Malibu and super-cool CTS, they may just have the power to make a strong comeback.
Both vehicles have presence, style, and luxury. But that's just it, they have all of this yet they do it all a bit different than the other.
Will take a final drive of each on Tuesday(will enjoy my rare Monday off- thanks MLK) and decide from there.
Thanks pals for all of your valueble input.
Wow, I NEVER said the Jag wasn't good-looking. But to read your negative view of the SL is alarming. I could never agree with you. The SL550 is MUCH more car than you give it credit for. I'm surprised at you.
Regardless, that Jag is good-looking as I've always said, but that front snout is a catfish for sure.
As far as your pics go, your point is well-taken, but the similarity between two good-looking models is not uncommon. Heck, the Porsche's looks have all been very similar in the front for years. The 911 and the Boxster at half the price certainly shared a similar front end.
If you are going to talk about the front end look, I'd say that the AM does a much better job than the Jag in that department, because at least the AM doesn't look like an oversized bumper that looks like a catfish.
Now, don't over-react, because I still love the Jag in spite of that snout.
BTW, the top pic is a CLK... Keep the prize.
TagMan
TagMan
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the SL550. I hate the 650i. I'm certainly not trying to imply that its a bad car. All I'm saying is the looks don't do it for me. The new S and CL (with AMG treatment) look quite good, while (to me) the SL looks like a last generation product. The styling just doesn't move me like the Jag or even the Maserati coupe's does. I felt pretty much the same about the last SL. The only German sports car in recent memory that I would describe as "sexy" is the BMW Z8.
Also, I think the XKR delivers a lot more for the money. Its not quite SL55\63, but IMO more than the 550.
Now, how 'bout a congrats to me for knowing those pics!
Take care, and enjoy that beautiful XK of yours.
TagMan
Yeah, unfortunately they had to do it thanks to the latest EU regs. I'm actually of two minds about which version of the XK I like better. The XK8 has very nice integrated fog lamps, where as to me the XKR's look tacked on. On the other hand, I think the bright wire grilles on the XKR help to disguise how chunky the nose is better than the XK8s dark grille.
Those EU regs I believe have something to do with creating a buffer between the engine and the front of the car to minimize injuries caused by hitting pedestrians... for goodness sakes... talk about government intervention.
Must be a bunch of pedestrians getting hit by cars over there, I guess.
Now about those pics?
TagMan
and he's after a convertible this time around...
quite frankly, the Jag XKR convertible will change his gears more than another Mercedes will.
My crystal ball sees him burning rubber in the XKR, but we'll all know soon enough.
TagMan
Now THIS is more like it!
Hope they build it.
TagMan
The SL is still the standard, it's just familiar at this point. Breeds contempt. Nothing wrong with this great design.
The above picture is some hack drawing, and I hope doesn't see the light of day! Split the difference between the current SL, and this cartooinsh drawing please.
LG makes a good point. No two cars should have front ends that much alike. If I owned an SL, and parked next to a CLK, I'd be pretty po'd! :mad:
DrFill
Haven't heard from you in a while, Doc. Hope you're doing well.
TagMan
The XK is fresher and will age slower, and I personally love the way the 6 Series looks. Not necessarily the trunk lid, but it's a very avant garde, unique shape- not as curvaceous as the XK, but gorgeous all its own.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Ugh, no thanks. I'd MUCH rather have a Carrera GT than an SLR, a car which can melt itself and is a blend of exotic sports car and everyday GT, but not the best at either. Plus, Paris Hilton drives one. Thats a deal breaker right there.
For Porsche it was definitely worse with the 1st gen Boxster and the 996 911. The 997 looks like a proper 911 again, and the Boxster is better differentiated from it.
The SL is a bit wider than the CLK, and the front end is pulled back a bit farther, the CLK's is more upright. Other than that, they are almost identical. If they are on the other side of a lot and all I can see is the front, I cant tell which is which. Especially in silver.
Wow. I never thought I would see the words 6 series and gorgeous in the same sentence. Perhaps something like "pug ugly, but not pug fugly", or words to that effect, but not gorgeous. Wow.
LOL. The illustration I posted is supposedly an SLS, not an SLR. I've never heard of an SLS before, so either it would be something new or the article was a typo.
Regardless, it's just an illustration of an idea. The real reason I posted it was to agree with you that the SL is indeed aging a bit, although gracefully IMO, and the future of the SL is still anybody's guess. Last year, I posted a different picture of what might be the next SL. Bottom line... a new one should be around the corner, IMO, and I'd expect it to be an improvement.
In real life, I'm with you on this one... I'd take the Carrera GT.
BTW, When I was making the hard choice recently, I ruled out the both the XK and the SL only because I wanted the manual transmission of the Carrera S. Had I been choosing between automatics, I'd never have touched the Porsche's Tiptronic. I'd have been in the same boat as blkhemi and would have been choosing between the SL and an XKR.
While I have been saying that I'd have gone with the SL, I can't be 100% certain, because the XK I drove was not an XKR. Quite possibly, the added power of the XKR could have swayed me in that direction.
I must admit that your posts and others have made me realize a little more that as beautiful as the SL is, it is indeed a bit long in the tooth at this point. I hope its replacement does come soon.
I hope you don't think I was being overly critical of the Jag's front end. I was being honest about it, and I don't want you to think that I dislike the XK overall. I still love it quite a bit, and would buy one under the right circumstance. Anyone should be proud and excited to own one... including you, of course.
Interesting that you hate the 6 that much. I'm not a fan of that model either, but I don't hate it.
As you know, it's the Lexus cars that get under my skin. I don't know why exactly, since they are so well made. I think it's just that the styling is dead, IMO. Lexus styling does very little to arouse the senses, IMO. I think this will change with the next generation of Lexus vehicles, however. The concepts do indeed look interesting. Future Lexus for TagMan?... never say never. LOL.
Enough rambling for now... Talk to you later,
TagMan
I hated the design of the 645i when it launched, and I still hate it. Of all the Bangle BMWs, I think it is by far the worst, with the 745i being in second place. They've cleaned up the 7, and now it doesn't look too bad. It doesn't have the clean lines of the A8, or the sexy curves of the Maserati QP, but its no longer an eyesore. The interior is still the worst of any HELC though, barely beating out the Jaguar XJ.
Lexus has had a few styling hits, and a lot of misses. The original SC coupe was good, and the GS400 was good (except for those stupid circular brake lights in the back), it just sat on the market WAY too long. I didn't really like the new GS when it hit, but it has grown on me.
I liked the first gen RX much better than the original ML's minivan look, and the RX has influenced a huge amount of (mostly Korean) crossovers. The IS350 is a great looking car. The SC430 is really, really awful. The sooner they get rid of that thing, the better.
Regarding the XJ... I do remember that you're not fond of the XJ interior. I'm good with it, and although it is no doubt dated, I still am very fond of the XJ overall... both interior and exterior. It's a classic that works for me... especially the Vanden Plas. Not to say that I don't look forward to a replacement, because I do, and I hope it is a good one. Jaguar could really use a terrific brand new flagship sedan at this point in time.
BTW, the Bangle-look taken to the extreme doesn't work for me either. In moderation, it's OK.
Yes, the RX has definately inspired the Koreans. And I've never been a big fan of the looks of the ML... reminds me of a high-top sneaker.
TagMan
Jaguar - The XF concept wasn't present. It was only for the preview days. They did have the new XKR on display, it was a beautiful as I'd seen in pictures. More on this SL and XKR issue later! Without seeing the XF concept there wasn't much to do at Jaguar but look at their classically good looking, but familiar cars.
BMW - BMW is slowly but surely coming back around to being my second favorite. They knocked the X5 out of the park. From the exterior to the interior this new X5 is seriously gorgeous, but don't kid yourself about it being able to seat seven, because it can't. That "third" seat isn't even fit for most kids let alone adults. That said I love this truck just like I did the first one back in 2000 and it blows the ML (save the ML63) out of the water. The new BMW 3-Series convertible looked a little awkward in pics, but it looks fine in person, top up or down. The top up profile is a little boxier compared to the Coupe. The cure for the 6-Series is the M6, specifically the M6 convertible, stunning car. This year all the M cars wore white and they cast an impressive figure. The little Z4 M Coupe surprised me by also looking great on the stand. Last but not least is the 3-Series coupe, also hot. Still don't like the 7-Series no matter how fancy they make them, because now you can get your 7-Series done up by BMW's "Individual" outfit. Customer leather, wood and paint. Still doesn't work. Overall I'm slowly but surely coming back around to BMW.
Cadillac - The new CTS is very impressive. It has a deep grille like an Audi and the overall styling is much more together and cohesive than before. Kinda what BMW has done with their look from 7-Series to the new 3-Series, it has gotten better looking. The CTS was roped off and locked so there was no touching of the interior, but I can tell you that it looks so much better than before. I still like the STS-V to a degree, but not much else at Cadillac to get excited about.
Audi - Here is a company on the move, with the best looking lineup of any carmaker from top to bottom. They had 2 Q7 diesels there. The 6-cylinder 3.0 TDI and of course the concept V12 TDI concept. The V6 TDI Q7 "may go on sale" next year. The V12 concept has a look to die for, deeper grille and huge wheels give it an aggressive stance that the regular Q7s can't match. Then you have the RS4, S6 and S8, all gorgeous, brandishing their swank engines and stuffed to the gills quality interiors. The S6 in particular has some of the best seats I've ever sat in. Their winning diesel racecar was there also, a nice touch.
Rolls-Royce - Nothing prepares you for the first time you see the Phantom Drophead Coupe. OMG is the car so over the top. The teak wood top cover and stainless steel hood and winshield surround are just sick! Be sure to check the 2007 Autoshow pics thread in a few days on the News and Views for this one. The rear opening doors and the sheer size of the thing creates an unbeatable presence. Look for this one to be all the rage with the athelete/hip hop crowd as well as the old-money rich.
Aston-Martin - A very strange and bare display. The only car they had their were the new V8 Vantage Roadster. There was no DBS or DB9 of any kind there. Their display was just some black sand and some pics on the rear wall of their lineup, very unusual. I know Ford is trying to sell Aston-Martin but come on. AM reps didn't even have a podium, they just sat there in chairs!!! The was no seperate glass area this year for private viewing for pontential customers.
Mercedes-Benz - I didn't like the Ocean Drive Concept. It looks like a Bentley or Cadillac, way too flashy and gaudy for a Mercedes-Benz. I do like the concept of a 4-door convertible if the structural rigidity issue can be resolved, but they've got to tone this thing down before production. It does look equally balanced top up or top down. I didn't think it would since the top is so huge. The GL420 Bluetec's grille is a direct response to the American market's "bling" factor, to say that it is huge is to state the obvious. According to the reps there the GL230, GL420, R320, ML320 Bluetec models will all go on sale in roughly a year from now. Along with the existing E320 Bluetec these will be all be 50-state certified. A S320 or S420 Blutec is being debated for the U.S. market. The real stars of the Mercedes stand were the AMG vehicles in a seperate enclosure. The CL63 being the star of the show. The new CL is somewhat plain looking without the AMG trim, moreso than the previous CL so the AMG changes are more dramatic. The CL63 looks so right from kit to wheels. They also had the new S63 on display along with the E63 and ML63 (the only ML I'd want). There wasn't a C-Class in sight, guess they'd like you to forget about it since the official 08' pics are due on the 19th of this month. The S, SL, CLS and E were all still as impressive as ever considering how familiar they are now.
Lexus - I was more impressed with Lexus this year than ever before. The LF-A concept is hot and should make the first true lust object from Lexus. More on it later. My favorite production Lexus is still the IS350. I actually spent more time in the LS460L here than I did at the TOL event. I'm finding myself liking the LS460L more and more. The looks go in and out with the color and style of wheel, and there are a ton of buttons everwhere, but I can somewhat see the appeal for those who like it. This LF-A sports car represents the first time I've ever walked into an autoshow with a Lexus on my "must see" list. It didn't let me down either. Much better looking than the original concept, all that needs to be done is tone down the front end. I love the rear cooling vents under the brake lights. The car was displayed on one of those up high rotating turntables so you really couldn't see much of the interior. I have high hopes for this car when it reaches production. The IS-F on the other hand was sort of a mess. The car looks very nose-heavy and the stacked rear pipes are not attractive. Neither is the giant hood bulge. It seems as if Lexus never intended to put a V8 in the IS because of all the surgery to get one to fit.
Infiniti - The new G35 is nice, but the rest of the lineup is pretty much forgettable at this point. I still "like" the M35/45 and the FX, but my fascination with them is wearing thin with at this poiint. Other brands have m uch better looking lineups overall by far. Nothing but sketches of the next G35 Coupe, the real star of their lineup IMO.
cont....
I think the IS-F looks awful, like they sent it to DUB magazine and said "go nuts guys, we really want this to be in Fast and Furious 3". The cartoonish body kit makes it seem like they are trying to pull buyers away EVOs and STis, rather than M3s. All it needs is a big wing on the back and a roof scoop, and they'll be gold. I honestly can't see anyone shopping for an M3 or C63 even considering the IS-F. Park that in the executive lot and you'll be laughed at.
The two problems I have with the XJ on the inside are that 1. its like a time machine straight back to 1996, and 2. they really cheaped out in places that are very noticeable. I was absolutely shocked when I felt the inside of the driver's door handle and it was hard plastic, like they pulled it out of a Kia Rio. I hope the guy who said "we can save $8.50 per unit if we use plastic here instead of leather...I mean how often are you going to touch a door handle?" was fired, then dragged out back and shot.
What's so stupid is that using twin turbos on the 3.5L V6 would've solved all of the IS-F's problems, and they could've easily gotten 400+hp out of it.
Porsche - The new Cayenne still looks best in Turbo trim only, just like before. Porsche didn't allow anyone to sit in the Turbo. The new 911 GT3 and GT3 RS were there for the hard-core 911 fans. I'd have a Carrera 4S Cabrio or Turbo myself. The Cayman and Boxster didn't disappoint either. The Carrera GT is out of production now so of course it wasn't there....sigh.
Bentley - The new Azure as impressive as it is, gets upstaged quite easily by the Rolls DHC. The Azure is still as timeless as ever and looks the part though, but the Rolls is just I dunno. My favorite Bentley, the Arnage wasn't there. The new Continental GTC droptop was there in a "unique" shade of brown that was very much an aquired taste, IMO. As many of you know I'm no fan of these new VW-based Bentleys, not because of their VW connection but because of their looks. The sedan, the Continental Flying Spur is the best looking one of the trio.
My favorites, the production and concepts that impressed the most. In no particular order, after #1 the Roller:
1. Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe - This car is so over the top, expect to it to cost about "400K" according the Rolls folks on hand. It was truly the star of the entire show for me.
2. BMW X5 - Inside and out, BMW has a hit on thier hands with this one. The best BMW interior going also.
3. Lexus LF-A - The first lust object from Lexus in the making. This is the car that could win Lexus some respect from the Euro-only crowd.
4. Audi Q7 V12 TDI - Awesome engine, interior, exterior, a killer package.
5. Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG - Stunning Mercedes coupe with the racecar engine.
6. Audi R8 - Just like Lexus this is a crucial image car for Audi. A stunning sports car with all the typical Audi goodness. Audi had 2 stars on their stand, more than MB and BMW. The should do wonders for their image.
7. BMW M6 Convertible - For this package I can forgive the trunklid, a must have from BMW.
8. Ferrari 599GTB - A real Ferrari in every sense of the word. There has never been a sleeker Ferrari.
9. Cadillac CTS - A huge improvement over the previous car. Now if Cadillac could pull off such a transformation with the next round of replacements of their other cars they'd be on to something.
10. Toyota FT-HS - A surprise. This concept looks much better in person that it does in pics. Sure the front end has a little too much going on, but it doesn't ruin the overall concept. I stood through the entire presentation, very impressive stats/drivetrain for the money.
Notes:
Aston-Martin's display was just awful for such a great marque. It was so bare and last-minute looking and their entire lineup wasn't there. The new V8 Roadster is gorgeous but gee whiz does selling the brand mean skimp on the display?
Mercedes had their 4Matic cars displayed on a floor of real ice. No one fell while I was there..lol! They also had a wall of ice from the floor to ceiling with little "4Matic" badges embedded in it.
There is hope for GM moreso than Chrysler and Ford IMO. I'll post my impressions about the "regular" bands later in the 2007 Detroit Autoshow thread over on News and Views.
All I can think of at the moment about Detroit...so there you have it! Pics in a day or so!
M
True, but this is a matter of keeping up with the Joneses. This class will be all V8 when the M3 arrives so Lexus wasn't about to use a V6 no matter how much hp they could have rung out of it.
M
I won't go into the the Jaguar's front end looking like a much lesser non-Jaguar vehicle because that isn't Jaguar's fault. I remember reading that the brother of the stylist of the XK did the Ford Taurus also. On the other hand all Mercedes coupes and roadsters have had the same front end for years. Whether or not it was the SL, CL or this generation CLK. I really don't see the problem with a similar front end when there are far less "exclusively" branded cars that look a lot alike also. This about the SL and CLK being identical is really trivial IMO.
M
Its disappointing that cylinder count for the marketing guys trumps the engineers, and logic. Reminds me of the camera companies all shoving in more megapixels regardless of whether or not it actually improves (or in some cases degrades) image quality.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
For the most part the interior of the XJ is proper amounts of wood and lots of genuine leather.
The IS-F definately is as you described. It isn't going to matter that it isn't in the same league as the BMW M3... all the comps will be between it and the Bimmer... just wait and see. Just by being compared to the M3 will give it credibility that it won't deserve. Diehard BMW fans will see through this, but there will be those that won't.
TagMan
I am very sorry to hear that. I was thinking of taking the wife to the BMW dealership to look at that new X5. She needs seats for seven.
TagMan
I am glad you agree with me regarding the merits of the SL.
Again, thanks for the review. Just think... one day in the future we might actually love a Lexus! LOL.
TagMan
I'm waiting to see which of the 2 new DVD technologies becomes the accepted one.
If I wind up with an X5, it would be purely for hedonistic reasons.
I need the extra leg-room...and enjoying BMW's best interior wouldn't hurt. The 545's interior is sooo boring. Might be worth giving up some driving excitement. But then again I read the 4.8 X5 can do 0-60 mph in 6.4 seconds. Gulp!
I also intend to check out the 335i coupe and any BMW diesels that come along within the next 18 months.
Some tough decisions, but somebody's got to do it!