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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Just getting caught up to speed with everyone.

    Merc1- Great pics from Motown. I got some that I need to get on here also.

    Maybach? Mercedes just needs to cut their loses now and forget that they even attempted this arena of automobile. MAybe if they'd put the 3-pointed star on the hood, they wouldn't have to entice prospects with $20k in free upgrades.

    And lastly, of course, the good Doctor comes back with a bang only to find out it's a dud.

    Why pick on Audi? Do you just want to own one that bad? I'm not going to argue or start a Lexus V. Audi conundrum with you, as that would be your cup of tea, but before we boast about Lexus, and it's Toyota parent, we may want to look at what the consumers are saying. Yes you North American consumers, more to the point, your USA customers as you've summurized them. The quality is fading, rapidly. And that is Toyota's only calling card. It fails, for sure the rest will.

    Lexus is no longer the shining star that it once was. You have a 12 year old SUV that you ask $65k for(a very GM move on this one, but even they're not that bad as the Escalade shames the LX), an SUV and sedan that are based on a Camry that are no longer the stars in their classes, and a uber-poser GT conv/coupe that is so bad that even Jim Press admitted "it's time to send it to the scrapper".

    Now to Audi. I don't remember Lexus being on the verge of selling 1M cars, WORLDWIDE. You do know there are 5.7 BILLION people that are outside of the United States? So they mean nothing? Oh and by the way, when China(not if) gets their way, they will be the number one market in the world by 2010/11, and what is the number one selling HELM in that country. Yes, it's true, the very second-rate, non-worthy(as you'd put it) Audi A8. So you may want to stop your "We're #1" chant ahead of time.

    Audi is also increasing M-O-M, Y-O-Y sales in this very country. And to boot, let's not forget that a 4 year old Audi A8 soundedly beat your brand-spankin new luxo-lounger LS460 in your BFFM(Best Friends Forever Magazine), C&D, Yes that would be the same one that you boast about all the time for the LS430 beating a MB S430. Ah, but this time it's a conspiracy, I'm sure of it. Right along with that 200ft stopping distance that's been repeated by 3 mags.

    I challenge you to line up Lexus' current and very near future(3 year) line-up with Audi's, only the ones for the US. Outside of the IS500(will not beat a RS4 or M3 with a prayer), the LF-A, it's still same old Lexus: We do enough, just enough. We even park your car for ya....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Worldwide last year, Audi outsold Lexus 905,100 to 460,000 units. Audi sold 260,000 cars in Germany while Lexus sold 25,000 vehicles in all of Europe." Joseph Szczesny 1/21/2007.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, this might mean something to me.... if I lived in Europe. Alas, I don't. What were those U.S. sales numbers again? I really have no interest in what people drive in China or Europe, but I still wish them the best.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I dunno.

    To me, selling twice as many cars WORLDWIDE is pretty impressive. :surprise:

    My man Tony should be very proud that his Audi A8 comes from a company acknowledged by THE WORLD as being one of the truly outstanding upscale vehicle manufacturers.

    By the way, the A8 was one of the very few vehicles at the auto show that impressed me both inside and out.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If only to teach you a lesson. ;)

    The A4 has been easily passed by the IS, in one year, so that one isn't worth mentioning. Lexus can't build enough, and doesn't have to go to $25k to sell one.

    The A6 and GS is a wash, since neither has done much damage in the market place, or in comparisons.

    The A8 has been getting beaten rather easily by the LS in sales AND comparisons by the LS for MANY years, until this anomaly of a test, run by the once-reliable C&D. If you think a VW Rabbit is superior to a Mazda3, please put credence into this test. Otherwise, rinse and repeat. May cause tearing. :cry:

    And the Q7 can't be given away, as the 10-year old LX gives it a run for the money in sales.

    And the R8 looks like a racoon I hit on I-10 next to the LF-A.

    Audi is just trying to use Lexus sterling name to drum up controversy and interest in a brand that is not interesting, much less sterling, and hasn't been for decades.

    Audi is not a threat. It is the Jim Kelly of luxury car makers. Can get it done right up to the big game, then folds like a house of cards. :sick:

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well said!

    Audis are EXTREMELY interesting.

    I plan on driving the A8 sometime next year.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I like the A8 more than the S-class and far more than the 7 series. I'm very interested to see what the next gen A8 is like, I'm sure Audi is going to build a VERY impressive car.

    The A6 has really grown on me, its my pick of the German trio, despite the fact that the 5 and E crush it in sales in the states.

    The TT has become a cool car. The last one was basically a Golf with an enormous price hike and was a total poser sports car, but the new one actually walks the walk. The TT-RS should give BMW some serious worry.

    The A5 and A7 should be interesting, and its worth noting that Lexus has no competitor for either.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I like the A8 more than the S-Class and far more than the 7 Series."

    I agree!

    I sat in each one of these at the auto show and the one that impressed me most regarding style, seats and interior was the A8.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Audi market share in HELC is not just small; it's next to non-existent. You can find the most recent monthly and annual sales number:

    http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

    Lexus LS460/430 sold 3865 in December, 26k in 2005;
    MB S class 2987 in December, 16k in 2005, 31k in 2006;
    BMW 7 series over 2k in November, 18k in 2005;

    Audi A8? 323 in Dec, 557 in Nov, about 5k for both 05/06

    Audi is is a minuscule player in HELC.

    Their "collosal sales in Europe" is built on very plebian cars like A3 and A4, which has nothing to do with HELC or even debatable luxury. Globally, A4 and A6 compete with cars like Toyota Crown, not Lexus. The majority of A8 sold in Europe have V6 engines, and have MSRP around $50k. That would disqualify A8 itself in HELC discussion.

    The REAL truth is that Audi is a global success and is just now in the early stages of what is a gigantic ascention in this U.S. market.

    That may have been the case back in 1994. Audi/VW has just finished another cycle here in the US. It will take a few years before another generation of suckers are born and unware of just how unreliable their cars are. If Audi were promising in the US, VW would not have been an acquisition target by a much smaller player like Porsche in a reverse take-over.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    To me, selling twice as many cars WORLDWIDE is pretty impressive.

    Depending on what's being sold. In most parts of the world, Audi live by A4 and A6 sales. In these same markets, the direct competitor to A4 and A6 is Toyota Crown, not any Lexus. Sure, Toyota also sells some ultra luxury cars under its own brand, like Toyota Century, priced around $200k+. Of course, Toyota has huge sales volume worldwide. Shall we then talk about what a great HELC brand Toyota is?? Their Landcruiser is close to $60k for what it's worth. I sure don't hope so. Let's focus on US market, which we are all familiar with. In other markets, the same brands may well have very different market positions and identities.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Oh and by the way, when China(not if) gets their way, they will be the number one market in the world by 2010/11, and what is the number one selling HELM in that country. Yes, it's true, the very second-rate, non-worthy(as you'd put it) Audi A8.

    Okay, let's put some numbers into perspective. How many A8's does that supposed #1 in China amount to? less than 2000 cars in a year. Lexus, MB and BMW each sell that many or more LS, S and 7 in the US in a month. When China market does become #1, they may well have different preferences. At present (and the recent past), many of these A8's are shipped to bureacrats there as bribes for running Audi factories. They just get parked there. I was on a business trip there back in 2005, and stayed in a hotel in Beijing for a couple weeks. One A8 (out of only 1800 or so imported to that whole country that year) literally sat in the same spot in the city council courtyard nearby that whole time without ever moving. It did not even have a license plate, so couldn't be driven even if someone tried.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That of the cherished manual tranny, which will have to pried from my cold, dead hand.
    Oh....and now would be a good time to sell, since I have bashed the IS350 consistently for not offering a stick. Same goes for the IS-F. Not luvin' it, with the 10th-gradeer body kit. Not exactly tasteful.


    So let me get this straight now. Your favorite car company does not offer manual trannies while at the same time you love manual trannies so much that you cant live without one?

    Sounds like a contradiction, dont you think?

    I've come to the conclusion that you like Lexus as a business/marketing case study. You like their sales numbers, their margins, their customer services and last but not least their Red Bow Christmas Promotions. You like everything about Lexus except their cars.

    Am I correct?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    One A8 (out of only 1800 or so imported to that whole country that year)

    Where on earth did you get Mainland China Audi A8 sales stats from? Or is this A8 figure of yours just a pie in the sky guess?

    A8s driven mainly by bureaucrats in China?

    Really?

    I myself was in China more then a few times these past few years (my wife is Chinese) and I can assure you Audis (including the A8) in China are driven by a diverse affluent group of drivers beyond just bureacrats.

    You claim that many A8s are given as bribes to conniving bureaucrats for running Audi factories? Interesting allegations indeed? Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    So some of you are up in arms of Audi's success. Who gives a hoot.

    The truth of the matter is that sales of a car is only fraction of why a car is in existence in the first place.

    While yes, the A8 sells in limited quantities here in the States, but I dare anyone to compare it's build quality and exemplary fit/finish and attention to detail to ANY car in it's class, including the ex-GM grade plastics of the LS460.

    As I've went back into the archives of this very thread, about every three months, the same rowdy circle of posters question or examine Audi as a company, and conversely, knows little about the company and what makes Audi's what they are.

    Sales? Did we post what the LX470 sales numbers are? I don't remember seeing what those embarrassing figures were over a lowly old Cadillac Escalade, which sells for, on average, $3-5k more. How's that new from the ground up ES350 doing? Not to hot.

    And someone mentioned the A6 is a dud. I don't remember a car that is the best selling luxury in the world a dud. That is not the United States, China, or Europe, but all of them and the 6 continents that they reside on.

    You can't fault Audi for offering the A4 with a 4cyl at $28k all the way up to the RS4 with the only V8 in it's class at $70k, oh and these are sold out for 3 years, along with the super-cool S8. I bet you Lexus won't attempt that pricing strategy for 20 years as that is not in agreement with their bargain-basement pricing.

    And now to the relevant A8. What's the only car on the road that has not been "Bangle-ized" in it's class? The A8. What other car offers std. AWD(and yes it matters to we New Yawkas, the biggest A8 area)? The A8. What car of current vintage boasts the most awards given by any publication? The A8. And the list goes on.

    Sales of a car does not determine how the car really is. Just like a prominent family last name doesn't determine the character of the person. Just as the value of a home does not determine it's desireability..

    For it to be solely based on sales alone we wouldn't have such greats as:

    Maserati QP
    Land Rover Range Rover(shadowed by Escalade and GL)
    All Aston Martin
    Jaguar XJ
    and coincedently, the LX470.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You say they only make money on "plebian" cars like the A3 and A4.

    At last check, it's only the gluttony of Americans that like expansive and large cars. Most other countries, especially tight-ridden Asia, have nothing BUT small cars, including the premium cars.

    So by that admission, the Yaris and Corolla are the only reason for the existance of Toyota? Your points are getting lesser in validation.

    As far as the Porsche takeover, it won't happen. And what does Audi being promising the US and the takeover have to do with one another?

    BTW: It's very well known that Porsche wants Audi, not VW, to help with platform and powertrain engineering because the Toyota engineers that toured and courted Porsches plants were deemed "insufficient".
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Blkhemi. And a lot nicer than I can be to boot.

    Brightness, if your going to say that the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k, it would be a good idea to allow for the exchange rate. But maybe that doesn't matter over here?

    Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.

    Let me get this strait. You guys are upset because Audi said that they want to come after Lexus in sales? So, you just make up stories about what you saw in anther country that's so irrelevant, you went for a visit? This is hilarious.

    Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Wow, what a riot. With the cars you own, you accuse Americans of being gluttons?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "...the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k..."

    Ye of little knowledge of how the European system works.

    Brightness fails to realize that, if it's not 4 or 6 cylinders or the all important diesel in Europe, it ain't gonna happen, and hence the LS paltry sales, but alas, that doesn't matter seeing how the S350(420 CDI), the 735i(735iD), and the A8(both 3.6L V6 and 4.2L TDI) account for 90% of all sales for each company.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Yes with the cars I own, I prefer them the bigger the better.

    I am an American at last check and I along with 95% of us don't care for small portions ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Since you like the A8, you owe it to yourself to see the S8.

    The S8 is a genuine masterpiece, IMO.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I hate to get into this Audi vs. Lexus thing, but some statements stand out:

    The A6 and GS is a wash, since neither has done much damage in the market place, or in comparisons.

    I've been saying this for years about the GS. It has once again fallen down in the segment it was supposed to dominate. The A6, well....there is at least the S6 to crow about.

    The A8 has been getting beaten rather easily by the LS in sales AND comparisons by the LS for MANY years, until this anomaly of a test, run by the once-reliable C&D.

    Sales yes, comparisons, not quite so easily. Motor Trend put the A8L over the LS430 in the past also.

    If you think a VW Rabbit is superior to a Mazda3, please put credence into this test.

    Has nothing to do with anything here, but I guess you're implying that C&D are off their rocker now right? Amazing what a spectacular LS460L comparo loss can do.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think all this attention to Audi (somewhat in response to Doc's jabbing) is deserved. Audi is truly in the earliest stages of a large ascention in this U.S. market, as I posted to the Doc. There will be some newer and even better things to come from Audi in the future. We can bank on it. Audi sales will grow significantly for years to come. And deservedly, as their vehicles are quality built. Their interiors are darned near as good as anyone's and better than most. They represent genuine value, IMO... not hype value.

    So all this attention to Audi?... Richly deserved.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Where on earth did you get Mainland China Audi A8 sales stats from? Or is this A8 figure of yours just a pie in the sky guess?

    Ignorance often breeds arrogance. I happen to have a decent working knowledge in this field. What a proof? Here's a link from Audi's own website:

    http://www.audi.ie/audi/ie/en2/about_audi_ag/news/press_releases/Audi_continues_- - to_thrive_in_China.html

    As you can see, in 2005, total Audi A8 import into Mainland China and Hongkong combined was 2108 units.

    Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.

    The difference is that many of the people receiving the bribe of A8 there are not company executives at factories making Audi's, but government officials or managers of government-owned enterprises who are either in a position of licensing and authorizing factory openings or in a position of buying a fleet of A6's for taxi services. That's called a bribe, regardless which country we are talking about. Granted, Audi is not a pioneer in this field. MB was known for giving S class as bribes to third world countries' officials (including those of China) for buying their buses and trucks with public funds.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    What in the world are you talking about? A3, A4, Yaris and Corolla are not big money makers, but they do boost unit sales volume. The rest of the world do not dislike large cars; they just can't afford big cars. When they can, they will. Worldwide, Audi happens to cater to a market that is far removed from HELC. Even A6, which BTW is the best seller from Audi in China, competes against Toyota Crown and Honda Accord V6 over there. So it's quite ludicrous to hang onto the worldwide sales volume of relatively plebian cars as some kind of bragging right in a HELC forum.

    Here's the crux of the issue: worldwide A8 sales is less than LS sales in the US alone! despite the fact that the majority of A8's sold worldwide are the lowly V6 variants that wouldn't even qualify for HELC. Think about that the next time anyone wants to brag about Audi worldwide sales volume.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Brightness, if your going to say that the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k, it would be a good idea to allow for the exchange rate.

    Roughly $50k US, after exchange rate.

    Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.

    Ever heard "something is better than nothing"? Even the A8 is better than some old Chinese branded jallopies that the bureacrats otherwise would have to ride.

    Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?

    Looks like it. As far as HELC models are concerned, A8 has a long way to go before getting past 7 and S, and then LS sales. In the most recent month, A8 sold an order of magnitude less than LS! What planet are these wankers living on?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That's why I said, if we want to stick with HELC, we'd better stick with the US market. If we are to talk about Europe, then S, 7 and A8 may not even qualify for HELC, with their predominant sales in V6 forms at much lower price points.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've been saying this for years about the GS. It has once again fallen down in the segment it was supposed to dominate.

    I don't really think they were expecting to dominate the segment. Lexus usually doesn't release internal sales targets (smart move, IMO) but all things considered, the GS is doing "OK". Its beating the bloody pulp out of the RL, and holding its own against the M, A6, and STS. The GS400 was always the last place finisher against the A6 4.2, E430, and 540i. This time its managed to climb up to middle of the pack, so it's at least an improvement over last time.

    The GS certainly isn't the worst car Lexus sells *cough* SC430 *cough*
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I was talking more about the hype given here, not Lexus' own sales hopes...but no arguments from me there.

    The RL is a lost cause, IMO.

    Actually the GS400 used to beat all those cars except the 540i in most comparos back then.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ignorance often breeds arrogance. I happen to have a decent working knowledge in this field. What a proof? Here's a link from Audi's own website:

    I was inquiring where you got that Audi info? Is that arrogance? You have working knowledge? You just googled this info and you call that working knowledge? Or is your working knowlege restricted to the field of giving A8s as bribes?

    And 75.1 percent growth for Mainland China A8 sales is not impressive? If that is not impressive then I dont know what is? So that must mean bribes are growing at a 75.1 percent rate? :P

    The Audi A8 like most other HELCs are mainly driven by hard working affluent individuals in the private sector. Most HELC drivers consider their cars as earned just like they do in USA. Your proof based on a single observation of a parked and unused Audi owned by a bureaucrat is kind of silly, dont you think?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sounds good. Thanks! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "The Audi A8....mainly driven by hard working affluent individuals in the private sector."

    Yeah. Sure wish someone would bribe me with an A8 :) !
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Or me with a CLS550.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yeah. Now there's a company that I could work for! :)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    now they are better than nothing, but before they just sat around.

    Why don't you go get your story strait about what you saw on your vacation.......errr nap, and get back to me.

    Don't strippers brag about how much they do in sales every night?

    It's amazing to me how a gussied up Buick can catch so many fish.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Sorry Merc and Howard,

    Nobdody could bribe me with a A8 or a MB CLS550.

    A BMW M5 ,Audi RS6 or MB E AMG? In that case consider my soul sold to the highest bidder. :shades:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    has a video of one of those cars that nobody wants [that's not a sucker] testing in Las Vegas.

    The sound is unholy, heaven.

    Only young of heart need to watch, and more importantly listen.

    This car can't hold a candle to the Lexus offerings, but, I guess it sounds pretty good.

    I think it's called a crappy R8, or something....Audi R8, that's it. Anyway, go to winding road and watch the video of this abysmal failure of a car company that has nothing going for it.

    Excuse me while I clean myself up. I think the sound caused me to have an accident. :blush:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    hpowders,
    Since you have shown an interest in the Audi A8 and possibly the incredible S8, here's a little blurb on what to expect from the next generation A8:

    Next Audi A8

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I’m having a hard time parsing this. Seems unbelievable:

    ”A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure — printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast — dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.

    Comparatively, luxury and sports car maker BMW makes about $3,200 per car. Audi nets a less impressive $1,580, and Chrysler and Volkswagen earn just $900 and $400, respectively.”


    They say Porsche denies it, claiming between $10K-$20K per vehicle, still lofty in comparison to the others cited.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/category/porsche/
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    This has always been rather common knowledge among people who really know cars. You have to be an even bigger "sucker" to buy a Porsche than an Audi!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Nothing to do with being a sucker. It has everything to do with Porsche's ability to make some very desirable cars that nobody else makea. BMW and Corvette roadsters cant compete. It will be interesting to see a future review comparing an Audi R8, Acura NSX, Lexus LF-A against certain Porsche models.

    If it wasn't for Porsche's family control there would have been major bidding wars among automakers to takeover Porsche a long time ago.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    that we can debate the cars and car-related topics all we want, but insulting people is not appropriate. Keep it civil, please.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It has everything to do with Porsche's ability to make some very desirable cars that nobody else can make.

    I know this is true. I'm on my third Porsche.

    BTW, I received a VERY attractive price when I made my purchase. After that, I don't give a rat's --- how much Porsche makes. If they make a good healthy profit, then I know that they can afford to continue building some of the best and coolest cars on the planet.

    Thank you, Porsche!!!... I'm having a blast!

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    A phenomenal review by AutoWeek of the Audi R8 can be found here:

    link title

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, looks like we all have our price! :)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Can we focus on the subject matter and ditch the personal insults? You obviously tried to insult me with your "pie in the sky" accusation, then my number turned out to be very sound. Now from nowhere you are accusing me of relying on Google. I knew the 1800 number without consulting google; if I did rely on google, I would have given you the 2100 number for Mainland and HK combined as that's a number much easier to find on google. Projecting from one's own experience does not always work

    75% growth for specific models in China is not impressive when a car is newly introduced. From a starting base of only a couple hundred cars in 2002-3, A8 can indeed garner high double digit growth for a few years; many other models from other manufacturers did the same thing. High per centage growth is easy when the base is small.

    In a third world country, drivers of HELC are usually chauffers not the owners. Projecting US experience for HELC can be quite erroneous when we are talking about only a few thousand cars sold at this price level in a country of over 1 billion people. The number of HELC cars sold in China per million population is comparable to Ultra Lux like $300k Rolls and Maybach (not even the $170k Bentley) in the US. These cars are not usually bought by "hard working affluent individuals." They are usually purchased for livery/limo service or extremely wealthy individuals in personal fleets, even in the US. Overseas in countries like China, corruption is often the source of extreme wealth and power. In the case of Audi, corruption becomes all the more relevent as A8 is often a tool for bribary in order to sell A6 and A4 to publicly-funded vehicle fleets like department vehicle purchases.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I certainly believe it. Get this! The local Porsche dealer offered to sell me a Carrera GT for $125,000 OFF MSRP!! That was a few months before production ended. Of course, there was no possible way whatsoever that I could've bought it, but the salesman told me that they were wanting to move it out because it was costing them too much to have it in the showroom. He even told me to refer the offer if I knew anyone interested.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The reviewer at 6'4" had to move the driver's seat FORWARD for comfort! Sounds like my kind of car!

    The headlights have that aggressive "545" look, too!

    In my current busy position of sitting here accruing interest and dividends, I somehow missed this article. ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually the GS400 used to beat all those cars except the 540i in most comparos back then.

    Hmm, because the only comparison I can remember of the four, the GS was last. I don't remember if it was MT or C&D, but they didn't like it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Why would anyone build a great car like this and then put in "overboosted power steering with no feel and no feedback"?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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