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Comments
Merc1- Great pics from Motown. I got some that I need to get on here also.
Maybach? Mercedes just needs to cut their loses now and forget that they even attempted this arena of automobile. MAybe if they'd put the 3-pointed star on the hood, they wouldn't have to entice prospects with $20k in free upgrades.
And lastly, of course, the good Doctor comes back with a bang only to find out it's a dud.
Why pick on Audi? Do you just want to own one that bad? I'm not going to argue or start a Lexus V. Audi conundrum with you, as that would be your cup of tea, but before we boast about Lexus, and it's Toyota parent, we may want to look at what the consumers are saying. Yes you North American consumers, more to the point, your USA customers as you've summurized them. The quality is fading, rapidly. And that is Toyota's only calling card. It fails, for sure the rest will.
Lexus is no longer the shining star that it once was. You have a 12 year old SUV that you ask $65k for(a very GM move on this one, but even they're not that bad as the Escalade shames the LX), an SUV and sedan that are based on a Camry that are no longer the stars in their classes, and a uber-poser GT conv/coupe that is so bad that even Jim Press admitted "it's time to send it to the scrapper".
Now to Audi. I don't remember Lexus being on the verge of selling 1M cars, WORLDWIDE. You do know there are 5.7 BILLION people that are outside of the United States? So they mean nothing? Oh and by the way, when China(not if) gets their way, they will be the number one market in the world by 2010/11, and what is the number one selling HELM in that country. Yes, it's true, the very second-rate, non-worthy(as you'd put it) Audi A8. So you may want to stop your "We're #1" chant ahead of time.
Audi is also increasing M-O-M, Y-O-Y sales in this very country. And to boot, let's not forget that a 4 year old Audi A8 soundedly beat your brand-spankin new luxo-lounger LS460 in your BFFM(Best Friends Forever Magazine), C&D, Yes that would be the same one that you boast about all the time for the LS430 beating a MB S430. Ah, but this time it's a conspiracy, I'm sure of it. Right along with that 200ft stopping distance that's been repeated by 3 mags.
I challenge you to line up Lexus' current and very near future(3 year) line-up with Audi's, only the ones for the US. Outside of the IS500(will not beat a RS4 or M3 with a prayer), the LF-A, it's still same old Lexus: We do enough, just enough. We even park your car for ya....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
To me, selling twice as many cars WORLDWIDE is pretty impressive. :surprise:
My man Tony should be very proud that his Audi A8 comes from a company acknowledged by THE WORLD as being one of the truly outstanding upscale vehicle manufacturers.
By the way, the A8 was one of the very few vehicles at the auto show that impressed me both inside and out.
The A4 has been easily passed by the IS, in one year, so that one isn't worth mentioning. Lexus can't build enough, and doesn't have to go to $25k to sell one.
The A6 and GS is a wash, since neither has done much damage in the market place, or in comparisons.
The A8 has been getting beaten rather easily by the LS in sales AND comparisons by the LS for MANY years, until this anomaly of a test, run by the once-reliable C&D. If you think a VW Rabbit is superior to a Mazda3, please put credence into this test. Otherwise, rinse and repeat. May cause tearing.
And the Q7 can't be given away, as the 10-year old LX gives it a run for the money in sales.
And the R8 looks like a racoon I hit on I-10 next to the LF-A.
Audi is just trying to use Lexus sterling name to drum up controversy and interest in a brand that is not interesting, much less sterling, and hasn't been for decades.
Audi is not a threat. It is the Jim Kelly of luxury car makers. Can get it done right up to the big game, then folds like a house of cards. :sick:
DrFill
Audis are EXTREMELY interesting.
I plan on driving the A8 sometime next year.
The A6 has really grown on me, its my pick of the German trio, despite the fact that the 5 and E crush it in sales in the states.
The TT has become a cool car. The last one was basically a Golf with an enormous price hike and was a total poser sports car, but the new one actually walks the walk. The TT-RS should give BMW some serious worry.
The A5 and A7 should be interesting, and its worth noting that Lexus has no competitor for either.
I agree!
I sat in each one of these at the auto show and the one that impressed me most regarding style, seats and interior was the A8.
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
Lexus LS460/430 sold 3865 in December, 26k in 2005;
MB S class 2987 in December, 16k in 2005, 31k in 2006;
BMW 7 series over 2k in November, 18k in 2005;
Audi A8? 323 in Dec, 557 in Nov, about 5k for both 05/06
Audi is is a minuscule player in HELC.
Their "collosal sales in Europe" is built on very plebian cars like A3 and A4, which has nothing to do with HELC or even debatable luxury. Globally, A4 and A6 compete with cars like Toyota Crown, not Lexus. The majority of A8 sold in Europe have V6 engines, and have MSRP around $50k. That would disqualify A8 itself in HELC discussion.
The REAL truth is that Audi is a global success and is just now in the early stages of what is a gigantic ascention in this U.S. market.
That may have been the case back in 1994. Audi/VW has just finished another cycle here in the US. It will take a few years before another generation of suckers are born and unware of just how unreliable their cars are. If Audi were promising in the US, VW would not have been an acquisition target by a much smaller player like Porsche in a reverse take-over.
Depending on what's being sold. In most parts of the world, Audi live by A4 and A6 sales. In these same markets, the direct competitor to A4 and A6 is Toyota Crown, not any Lexus. Sure, Toyota also sells some ultra luxury cars under its own brand, like Toyota Century, priced around $200k+. Of course, Toyota has huge sales volume worldwide. Shall we then talk about what a great HELC brand Toyota is?? Their Landcruiser is close to $60k for what it's worth. I sure don't hope so. Let's focus on US market, which we are all familiar with. In other markets, the same brands may well have very different market positions and identities.
Okay, let's put some numbers into perspective. How many A8's does that supposed #1 in China amount to? less than 2000 cars in a year. Lexus, MB and BMW each sell that many or more LS, S and 7 in the US in a month. When China market does become #1, they may well have different preferences. At present (and the recent past), many of these A8's are shipped to bureacrats there as bribes for running Audi factories. They just get parked there. I was on a business trip there back in 2005, and stayed in a hotel in Beijing for a couple weeks. One A8 (out of only 1800 or so imported to that whole country that year) literally sat in the same spot in the city council courtyard nearby that whole time without ever moving. It did not even have a license plate, so couldn't be driven even if someone tried.
Oh....and now would be a good time to sell, since I have bashed the IS350 consistently for not offering a stick. Same goes for the IS-F. Not luvin' it, with the 10th-gradeer body kit. Not exactly tasteful.
So let me get this straight now. Your favorite car company does not offer manual trannies while at the same time you love manual trannies so much that you cant live without one?
Sounds like a contradiction, dont you think?
I've come to the conclusion that you like Lexus as a business/marketing case study. You like their sales numbers, their margins, their customer services and last but not least their Red Bow Christmas Promotions. You like everything about Lexus except their cars.
Am I correct?
Where on earth did you get Mainland China Audi A8 sales stats from? Or is this A8 figure of yours just a pie in the sky guess?
A8s driven mainly by bureaucrats in China?
Really?
I myself was in China more then a few times these past few years (my wife is Chinese) and I can assure you Audis (including the A8) in China are driven by a diverse affluent group of drivers beyond just bureacrats.
You claim that many A8s are given as bribes to conniving bureaucrats for running Audi factories? Interesting allegations indeed? Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.
The truth of the matter is that sales of a car is only fraction of why a car is in existence in the first place.
While yes, the A8 sells in limited quantities here in the States, but I dare anyone to compare it's build quality and exemplary fit/finish and attention to detail to ANY car in it's class, including the ex-GM grade plastics of the LS460.
As I've went back into the archives of this very thread, about every three months, the same rowdy circle of posters question or examine Audi as a company, and conversely, knows little about the company and what makes Audi's what they are.
Sales? Did we post what the LX470 sales numbers are? I don't remember seeing what those embarrassing figures were over a lowly old Cadillac Escalade, which sells for, on average, $3-5k more. How's that new from the ground up ES350 doing? Not to hot.
And someone mentioned the A6 is a dud. I don't remember a car that is the best selling luxury in the world a dud. That is not the United States, China, or Europe, but all of them and the 6 continents that they reside on.
You can't fault Audi for offering the A4 with a 4cyl at $28k all the way up to the RS4 with the only V8 in it's class at $70k, oh and these are sold out for 3 years, along with the super-cool S8. I bet you Lexus won't attempt that pricing strategy for 20 years as that is not in agreement with their bargain-basement pricing.
And now to the relevant A8. What's the only car on the road that has not been "Bangle-ized" in it's class? The A8. What other car offers std. AWD(and yes it matters to we New Yawkas, the biggest A8 area)? The A8. What car of current vintage boasts the most awards given by any publication? The A8. And the list goes on.
Sales of a car does not determine how the car really is. Just like a prominent family last name doesn't determine the character of the person. Just as the value of a home does not determine it's desireability..
For it to be solely based on sales alone we wouldn't have such greats as:
Maserati QP
Land Rover Range Rover(shadowed by Escalade and GL)
All Aston Martin
Jaguar XJ
and coincedently, the LX470.
At last check, it's only the gluttony of Americans that like expansive and large cars. Most other countries, especially tight-ridden Asia, have nothing BUT small cars, including the premium cars.
So by that admission, the Yaris and Corolla are the only reason for the existance of Toyota? Your points are getting lesser in validation.
As far as the Porsche takeover, it won't happen. And what does Audi being promising the US and the takeover have to do with one another?
BTW: It's very well known that Porsche wants Audi, not VW, to help with platform and powertrain engineering because the Toyota engineers that toured and courted Porsches plants were deemed "insufficient".
Brightness, if your going to say that the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k, it would be a good idea to allow for the exchange rate. But maybe that doesn't matter over here?
Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.
Let me get this strait. You guys are upset because Audi said that they want to come after Lexus in sales? So, you just make up stories about what you saw in anther country that's so irrelevant, you went for a visit? This is hilarious.
Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ye of little knowledge of how the European system works.
Brightness fails to realize that, if it's not 4 or 6 cylinders or the all important diesel in Europe, it ain't gonna happen, and hence the LS paltry sales, but alas, that doesn't matter seeing how the S350(420 CDI), the 735i(735iD), and the A8(both 3.6L V6 and 4.2L TDI) account for 90% of all sales for each company.
I am an American at last check and I along with 95% of us don't care for small portions
The S8 is a genuine masterpiece, IMO.
TagMan
The A6 and GS is a wash, since neither has done much damage in the market place, or in comparisons.
I've been saying this for years about the GS. It has once again fallen down in the segment it was supposed to dominate. The A6, well....there is at least the S6 to crow about.
The A8 has been getting beaten rather easily by the LS in sales AND comparisons by the LS for MANY years, until this anomaly of a test, run by the once-reliable C&D.
Sales yes, comparisons, not quite so easily. Motor Trend put the A8L over the LS430 in the past also.
If you think a VW Rabbit is superior to a Mazda3, please put credence into this test.
Has nothing to do with anything here, but I guess you're implying that C&D are off their rocker now right? Amazing what a spectacular LS460L comparo loss can do.
M
So all this attention to Audi?... Richly deserved.
TagMan
Ignorance often breeds arrogance. I happen to have a decent working knowledge in this field. What a proof? Here's a link from Audi's own website:
http://www.audi.ie/audi/ie/en2/about_audi_ag/news/press_releases/Audi_continues_- - to_thrive_in_China.html
As you can see, in 2005, total Audi A8 import into Mainland China and Hongkong combined was 2108 units.
Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.
The difference is that many of the people receiving the bribe of A8 there are not company executives at factories making Audi's, but government officials or managers of government-owned enterprises who are either in a position of licensing and authorizing factory openings or in a position of buying a fleet of A6's for taxi services. That's called a bribe, regardless which country we are talking about. Granted, Audi is not a pioneer in this field. MB was known for giving S class as bribes to third world countries' officials (including those of China) for buying their buses and trucks with public funds.
Here's the crux of the issue: worldwide A8 sales is less than LS sales in the US alone! despite the fact that the majority of A8's sold worldwide are the lowly V6 variants that wouldn't even qualify for HELC. Think about that the next time anyone wants to brag about Audi worldwide sales volume.
Roughly $50k US, after exchange rate.
Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.
Ever heard "something is better than nothing"? Even the A8 is better than some old Chinese branded jallopies that the bureacrats otherwise would have to ride.
Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?
Looks like it. As far as HELC models are concerned, A8 has a long way to go before getting past 7 and S, and then LS sales. In the most recent month, A8 sold an order of magnitude less than LS! What planet are these wankers living on?
I don't really think they were expecting to dominate the segment. Lexus usually doesn't release internal sales targets (smart move, IMO) but all things considered, the GS is doing "OK". Its beating the bloody pulp out of the RL, and holding its own against the M, A6, and STS. The GS400 was always the last place finisher against the A6 4.2, E430, and 540i. This time its managed to climb up to middle of the pack, so it's at least an improvement over last time.
The GS certainly isn't the worst car Lexus sells *cough* SC430 *cough*
The RL is a lost cause, IMO.
Actually the GS400 used to beat all those cars except the 540i in most comparos back then.
M
I was inquiring where you got that Audi info? Is that arrogance? You have working knowledge? You just googled this info and you call that working knowledge? Or is your working knowlege restricted to the field of giving A8s as bribes?
And 75.1 percent growth for Mainland China A8 sales is not impressive? If that is not impressive then I dont know what is? So that must mean bribes are growing at a 75.1 percent rate? :P
The Audi A8 like most other HELCs are mainly driven by hard working affluent individuals in the private sector. Most HELC drivers consider their cars as earned just like they do in USA. Your proof based on a single observation of a parked and unused Audi owned by a bureaucrat is kind of silly, dont you think?
Yeah. Sure wish someone would bribe me with an A8 !
M
Why don't you go get your story strait about what you saw on your vacation.......errr nap, and get back to me.
Don't strippers brag about how much they do in sales every night?
It's amazing to me how a gussied up Buick can catch so many fish.
Nobdody could bribe me with a A8 or a MB CLS550.
A BMW M5 ,Audi RS6 or MB E AMG? In that case consider my soul sold to the highest bidder. :shades:
The sound is unholy, heaven.
Only young of heart need to watch, and more importantly listen.
This car can't hold a candle to the Lexus offerings, but, I guess it sounds pretty good.
I think it's called a crappy R8, or something....Audi R8, that's it. Anyway, go to winding road and watch the video of this abysmal failure of a car company that has nothing going for it.
Excuse me while I clean myself up. I think the sound caused me to have an accident.
Since you have shown an interest in the Audi A8 and possibly the incredible S8, here's a little blurb on what to expect from the next generation A8:
Next Audi A8
TagMan
”A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure — printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast — dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.
Comparatively, luxury and sports car maker BMW makes about $3,200 per car. Audi nets a less impressive $1,580, and Chrysler and Volkswagen earn just $900 and $400, respectively.”
They say Porsche denies it, claiming between $10K-$20K per vehicle, still lofty in comparison to the others cited.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/category/porsche/
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If it wasn't for Porsche's family control there would have been major bidding wars among automakers to takeover Porsche a long time ago.
I know this is true. I'm on my third Porsche.
BTW, I received a VERY attractive price when I made my purchase. After that, I don't give a rat's --- how much Porsche makes. If they make a good healthy profit, then I know that they can afford to continue building some of the best and coolest cars on the planet.
Thank you, Porsche!!!... I'm having a blast!
TagMan
link title
TagMan
75% growth for specific models in China is not impressive when a car is newly introduced. From a starting base of only a couple hundred cars in 2002-3, A8 can indeed garner high double digit growth for a few years; many other models from other manufacturers did the same thing. High per centage growth is easy when the base is small.
In a third world country, drivers of HELC are usually chauffers not the owners. Projecting US experience for HELC can be quite erroneous when we are talking about only a few thousand cars sold at this price level in a country of over 1 billion people. The number of HELC cars sold in China per million population is comparable to Ultra Lux like $300k Rolls and Maybach (not even the $170k Bentley) in the US. These cars are not usually bought by "hard working affluent individuals." They are usually purchased for livery/limo service or extremely wealthy individuals in personal fleets, even in the US. Overseas in countries like China, corruption is often the source of extreme wealth and power. In the case of Audi, corruption becomes all the more relevent as A8 is often a tool for bribary in order to sell A6 and A4 to publicly-funded vehicle fleets like department vehicle purchases.
The headlights have that aggressive "545" look, too!
In my current busy position of sitting here accruing interest and dividends, I somehow missed this article.
Hmm, because the only comparison I can remember of the four, the GS was last. I don't remember if it was MT or C&D, but they didn't like it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460