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  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Thank you so much for the wealth of information. I suspected as much that BMW must have gained some expertise making turbo engines all these years from making diesel cars in Europe. I also agree that in many ways, Lexus is almost like a US company, with a US product mix, trying to break into the European market; 76% annual grow is still decent though even if the base is as small as 25k-40k units.

    Spain, ah, I could use some warm vacation time this time of the year :-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Are you talking about the '08 CTS that arrives this fall? That's a 300hp V6 with AWD available. I'd be concerned about torque out of that 6 cylinder. The new M3 will be a V8.

    Cadillac is using that engine to go after the 335i. They're going to be using the Corvette small-block again to take on the M3. Possibly even the 7.0L Z06 version with 500hp! There will be no issues with torque out of that.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Jose,that sounds like a great car. Thanks for reminding us of what we are missing diesel wise. We can only hope that someday we can have access to some of these fantastic diesels that you have.

    I enjoyed your post and hope you will post more often.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    thanks for chiming in, don't be a stranger
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If you insist on repeating that non-existent "$20k," please don't be surprised if we have to go through yet another round of research on how much it really costs to drive a MB, in the opinion of MBUSA.

    Yes, you mentioned that the $20K premium is non-existent between the current S Class and LS.
    Where is your research?

    Or why dont you spare yourself all this trouble and just admit you're dead-wrong? :P
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Didn't know Caddy missed the manual on the top engine.

    Haven't I seen this mistake before?

    Leave it to GM to stand in it's own way.

    He was referring to the C-class.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Where did you see that about no BMW diesels?

    Dont worry Howard we will be seeing diesel BMWs very soon. I myself found nothing confirming that BMW will cancel future diesel offerings.

    My next BMW in 2011 will be a twin turbo diesel-lithium ion hybrid 3/5 series .

    Soryy but I dont have the patience to wait unitl 2020 for that BMWhydrogen model of theirs. Although I cant wait until 2040 when I will be old enough to buy a more sedate Lexus LS992. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    ...which will still have excessive body lean and pinky finger steering effort. LOL!!!

    I kinda think we may see the liquid hydrogen before 2020!
    I would ask my dealer but he has that dazed look when I ask him about getting me a twin-turbo to drive. Ya don't have to understand it to have fun with it! ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Alpina B7 will soon be available in North America. Its supercharged 4.4L V8 will have 500hp/700 nm of torque.

    This B7 is only 0.1 seconds slower than the much lighter and smaller M5. Quite an accomplishment. The brutal torque is what makes this B7 a beast.

    image

    BMW is bringing in the BMW Alpina B7 into the US market, with the model set to be on show during the 2007 Chicago Motor Show this month. Alpina, an official BMW tuner, has taken the BMW 7-Series and fitted it with BMW’s 4.4 liter V8 engine. Of course, it wouldn’t do justice leaving the engine stock, so Alpina tweaked it with a supercharger, resulting in a monster V8 that makes 500hp at 5,500rpm, and 700Nm of torque at 4,250rpm. Horsepower matches the new E60 M5’s 5.0 liter V10 but kicks in at a much lower rpm, and the force blown motor beats the E60 M5’s torque figures by 120Nm. Clad in a nice trademark Alpina blue, the big luxury saloon goes from 0-100km/h in only 4.8 seconds, only a fraction slower than the E60 M5’s 4.7 seconds.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Before 2020?

    Wow! I better start calling my dealer and booking a future test drive. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    0-60 m/h (which converts nicely from 0-100 km/h) in 4.7 s gets us into seriously powerful acceleration.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Hope your dealer is more current with trends than mine. I better go check those "premium" coffee beans for freshness. I'm starting to get nervous! :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Alpina B7 will soon be available in North America. Its supercharged 4.4L V8 will have 500hp/700 nm of torque.

    Other than the supercharger and the big wheels though, whats the difference between this and a 750Li? Couldn't you just buy one of those and bolt on a supercharger yourself, saving a boatload of cash in the process?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Looks like another big seller....in France!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Where is your research? Or why dont you spare yourself all this trouble and just admit you're dead-wrong?

    For the simple reason that I'm not wrong. Anyone who has been old enough to be around and observe the S class pricing for the last couple model cycles could have observed the phenomenom. 7-12 months ago, many posters with short memory problem called me all sorts of names when I said Mustang and 300M selling close to MSRP were only transient phenomena at the start of model cycles, and that Carlos Ghosn was not magician and Nissan was on the verge of a down turn. Well, all three turned out to be true. Model cycles are what drive the car industry. The supposed $20k premium of S over LS simply does not exist in the bulk of a model cycle that lasts 6-8 years. S get severely discounted in the bulk of its model cycle. One has to be quite ignorant of the industry to believe that $20k brand premium.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And a newer engine to boot :-)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ghosn? Mustangs? 300Ms?

    Is this your research on how the $20K 07 S Class- 07 LS price premium disappears? :lemon:

    I guess the old cliche applies here--"If somethings sounds too good to be true than in that case it is too good to be true".

    Or do you have a crystal ball that can tell you how well the LS460 LWB will sell without incentives during the upcoming years? A crystal ball would be required since there have never been LS LWB sales prior to the 07 model.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Other than the supercharger and the big wheels though, whats the difference between this and a 750Li? Couldn't you just buy one of those and bolt on a supercharger yourself, saving a boatload of cash in the process?

    The same can be said about every MB AMG model, Audi S and RS models and the upcoming Lexus "F" models.

    How many BMW 7 Series or MB AMG S Class boy racer tuners have you met lately?

    And how many BMW 7 series owners want to be confronted with cancelled warranty coverage?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I think what Brightness is trying to tell you is that sometimes you just have to use common sense and that "statistical evidence" is not always available. Even if available, statistics are not always reliable. Remember the old saying, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure"? It is very true and most anything can be "proven" by using "statistics".

    I would just be inclined to take his word for what he says. Makes sense to me. Look at the lease deals available at Mercedes for the slow selling R class right now. They are practically giving these things away.

    I would hate to have to rely of "statistics" when buying a car. I much prefer to use common sense.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I know what you are saying Houdini.

    But we are not talking about an unpopular vehicle like an R Class? Also not every Lexus model can be moved without some tempting incentives.

    My point is that the $20K difference between the 07 LS
    and S Class does not disappear unless it can be proven otherwise with actual facts.

    Even without statistics and at face value the assertion does not wash when both vehicles are hot sellers.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    brightness04, houdini1, dhamilton,

    Thank you so much for your kind welcome.

    brightness04, Spain is warm all year round :) , but right now is snowing on it. Madrid is at the same parallel than New York City. If you come in winter, be prepared to some cold :blush:. Anyhow, nothing to compare to the snow storms of many regions in the USA.

    Now, a small piece of European news. The best seller brand in the LPS, HELC and luxury SUV niche altogether was BMW followed by Audi in 2005 and 2006. Next came MB. 2005 was the year in which Audi overtook MB. I cannot report the exact figures and its source because I through them away into the waste last week.

    Regards,

    Jose
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    An Audi A7? This certainly is not yet confirmed but here is a rendering of a possible A7. Personally I am no fan of 4 door coupes.

    So Houdini do you think this will sell well in France?
    How about Kansas? ;)

    image

    link title
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have always liked any clean, simple design and Audi has usually been high on that list. My problems with Audi here in the heartland are as follows:

    1. Very poor dealers and dealer network.

    2. I think they are over priced.

    3. Reliability concerns.

    4. That ugly drop down scoop on the front. It has never grown on me.

    5. The advent, in 1989, of that gussied up Toyota.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    European news from our insider, JLBL!!

    "The best seller brand in the LPS, HELC and luxury SUV niche altogether was BMW in 2005 and 2006!"

    The Chris Bangle revolution continues world-wide!

    I wish Edmunds had an emotorcon illustrating "bursting with pride."

    PS: It may be warm in Spain but it just got a little warmer at the other LPS and HELC corporate offices! :shades:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Exactly, Dewey... the obvious common sense things that brightness and houdini have mentioned are easy for all to see, but when specific quantitative numbers are inserted in place of a general process, then they need to be supported.

    It's one thing to say that there is an initial period of time in a model's cycle that it commands a higher price (common sense) than to say that prices peak at the 8-month mark, for example (requires supportive data).

    It's one thing to say that the price difference between an S and an LS expands or contracts under certain conditions (common sense) than to say the $20K difference disappears, for example (requires supportive data).

    We all have enough common sense here, for goodness sakes to understand and observe. But when brightness or anyone for that matter makes a quantitative statement, then it is common sense to want to know the analysis or data that is used to derive at his numbers... and that's what we've been asking for... it's just common sense to make such a request.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Not true. The RS and AMG cars as well as the Motorsport cars all have heavily revised suspensions, retuned gearing, fairly extensive body mods, and botique engines. Unless I missed something, it doesn't sound like the Alpina B7 has any of that. It seemed like a fairly off-the-shelf 7 series with a supercharger.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Is this your research on how the $20K 07 S Class- 07 LS price premium disappears?

    Nope. Already told you where my confidence came from regarding real S class pricing will be in much of its model cycle: previous cycles. Arguments and vindications regarding other car models are just proof of validity on the cycle theory . . . and how silly it really is to make pricing statements based solely on the first few months of a 6-8 year model cycle.

    A crystal ball would be required since there have never been LS LWB sales prior to the 07 model.

    One thing probably is for sure: even deeper discounting for LWB S class this time around because of what you mentioned.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The discussion is on LS vs. S, not just 07 LS vs. 07 S. Both marques have been around for much longer than a fraction of a model year.

    The vast difference in MSRP between LS and S have almost always been reduced to next-to nothing in recent model years and model cycles in terms of real transaction cost, even when they were more than $20k apart in MSRP's to start off. "This time it's different" is a battle cry for hucksters, and the ill-informed.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It's one thing to say that there is an initial period of time in a model's cycle that it commands a higher price (common sense) than to say that prices peak at the 8-month mark, for example (requires supportive data).

    Who said "_peak at_ 8-month mark"? Please provide supporting evidence.

    It's one thing to say that the price difference between an S and an LS expands or contracts under certain conditions (common sense) than to say the $20K difference disappears,

    hmm, if you agree that the price difference between S and LS contracts then you are contradicting the original MB advocate's quatitative statement regarding the $20k brand premium.

    when brightness or anyone for that matter makes a quantitative statement, then it is common sense to want to know the analysis or data that is used to derive at his numbers...

    Then how exactly does what you termed "common sense" regarding price gap fluctuation (quoted above) jive with the quantitative statement ($20k) asserted by a MB advocate?

    If you agree that price gap shrinks, and IMHO shrink dramaticly, during the bulk of the model cycle as common sense, I'm not sure what our disagreement is. The $20k quantitative number was not introduced by me, but by an MB advocate. My point was that the $20k claim is not backed up by real life transactions during the bulk of a model cycle. In case it's not obvious, nobody claimed the car going down in price by exactly $20k, not a cent more or a cent less. An MB advocate made the $20k quantitative statement; please take up the issue with him.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ugly. Fugly.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'm scanning posts and not reading anything that has $20K in it.
  • approximantapproximant Member Posts: 5
    Wow. That's some ulgy -!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    the A7 looks very Bangle-esqu.

    It will be interesting to see what shape Audi takes as Walter Da Silva leaves Audi for VW.

    I've really liked Mr Da Silva's elegant designs, sans the large over hang in front of the axle. [I know engineering necessity]
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    link title

    Why don't they just kill it?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So Tagman what are your thoughts about the MB-Chrysler closer ties story?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Very true. The Alpina B series models are not even comparable to M series models.

    But in the case of the 7 series the Alpina B is the best performance HELC you can buy at BMW with warranty coverage.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes, I agree it is time to move on. Enough of this prattle. If we all demanded proof and research on all statements made on this forum that is all we would be doing. I can see it coming to this:

    "Uh, Dr. HPowders could you please send me your written, documented, certified, annotated, unabridged, and notarized papers on the grabbiness of the brakes on the LS460?"

    "If not received immediately I will have to assume that you have no such proof and suggest that possibly a public caning would be in order. Just so there is no misunderstanding, the said caning would be for you, not me"

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Uh, Dr. HPowders could you please send me your written, documented, certified, annotated, unabridged, and notarized papers on the grabbiness of the brakes on the LS460?" "If not received immediately I will have to assume that you have no such proof and suggest that possibly a public caning would be in order.

    Well at least HPowders experiences of grabby brakes are confirmed by the expreiences of other forum members and auto journalists.

    How's this for a claim:

    The LS vs. S Class price differentials are far wider than what is indicated by MSRPs since Lexus LS models have far more incentives. You maybe ignorant of this fact but I have research that backs up my claim although I cant provide it to you in this forum. :P :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    There you go. Now that's the spirit. We should all have license to say whatever we darn well please and not have to prove anything just in case we were in the mood to tell a whopper!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The A7's side profile has an uncanny resemblance to my BMW 335i sedan. Until today I never even knew I owned a 4 door coupe? :confuse:

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes, Dewey. I only deal in the concrete and quantifiable.
    Not the hypothetical and abstract.
    Them's the brakes! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes, Dewey. The Chris Bangle influence is everywhere.
    See most 2007 Toyotas and Lexi; and now Audi!
    A great compliment to Bangle's creative genius!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Howard,

    it is nice to know that there is at least one other forum member here that appreciates the high aesthetics of Bangle design. But outside this forum there are a great number of auto designers that have a fine eye for Bangle beauty. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thankfully, the opinions of Chris Bangle here, do not reflect what is going on in the real world, where it counts.
    More and more manufacturers are paying him tribute by copying his designs. :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This week Toyota in the US settled a class-action lawsuit, also covering Lexus, which potentially involves 7.5 million current and previous owners whose cars were possibly damaged by engine oil sludge, or what the judge called "oil gel". Brought by Lexus owners Sarah and Jeff Meckstroth, and heard in a Louisiana county court, the suit and its outcome have big implications for Australia.

    link title
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Why don't they just kill it?


    Here's the ridiculous answer why the Phaeton will not be discontinued:

    Dr. Winterkorn is saying that VW has to be visible with competence from Polo to Phaeton

    Piesch through his crony Winterkorn are still calling the shots at VW. In otherwords VW will remain in denial and continue its brisk downhill slide in the auto industry.

    Look out for another VW flop in the form of a rebadged Chrysler Minivan. This upcoming VW van is suppose to cater to North American tastes just like the Phaeton was suppose to cater to the tastes of North American luxury car owners. :lemon:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Piesch through his crony Winterkorn are still calling the shots at VW. In otherwords VW will remain in denial and continue its brisk downhill slide in the auto industry.

    No matter who is supposedly in charge of VW, Piesch controls the whole show at VWAG. It will continue to be his game until he's off the board.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very much agree. It is sad to see one man's ego ruining a pedigreed business like that; the downside of tight family ownership I suppose. Sometimes one almost has to wonder if Piesche is doing this intentionally so Porsche can pick up VWAG on the cheap.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Ads from 2003, 2004 and 2005 are not exactly lost forever. One can easily look up newspaper ads from that time period in a well stocked library. Even MB advocates pleading short memory have some idea what the real scores were back then. That's why the insistence on 2007 models. The thing is, there isn't even a $20k price gap in MSRP for comparable 07 models, so defending that price premium is a non-starter.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    there isn't even a $20k price gap in MSRP for comparable 07 models

    Actually we need to see an S450 before begining to talk about truly comparable models.
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