High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · June 2003

I would like to pose the question to the room. How much hp is enough?

All the Euro luxury carmakers: Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Jaguar, and Bentley are all pushing hp to levels that are just short of ridiculous. We won't even go into what Bugatti, Ferrari, Porsche and the like are up to.

Mercedes has 4 600+ hp cars coming in the next 12 months: SLR, CL65, SL65 and the S65. They already have SEVEN cars that produce nearly 500hp as it is!

BMW is preparing a 550hp V10 for the next M5 and their 760Li already produces over 400hp.

VW is working on a "R" Variant of the Phaeton with 600hp.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/?article=6164&n=156,178&s- - - - - id=178

Audi will no doubt have to produce another S8 or an even more potent RS8. The current RS6 has 450hp.

Bentley's new Continental GT has about 550 hp.

Cadillac has what is sure to be a performance bargain coming the 50K 400hp CTS-v.

Jaguar has a few cars (XKR, S-Type R, XJR) with around 400hp too.

The Maybach and Rolls Phantom wear their high-hp engines with pride.

I remember when 300hp was awesome (about 10 years ago) for a luxury car and 400hp was truly reserved for exotic sports cars and a handful of sedans, now ordinary "luxury" cars are carrying this much hp and more. Where will it all end?

M

merc1 · June 2003

Speaking of the VW Phaeton, does anyone know the pricing or on-sale date?

M

ford624 · June 2003

Wow, I almost know that I am getting over my head writing in this discussion group.
Well, here goes:
A 2004 XJ8 with 18" wheels has a window sticker of about $60,000.00.
A 2003 MBZ E 500 with a sport pkg and a few more options has a window sticker of about $60,000.00.
Humbly, I am asking, which will provide the best all around (bang for my buck)?
"Thanks"
...Jack

aki86 · June 2003

I don't think it will ever stop. If you look even farther back, 50 hp was considered enough for a high-end car. Just like Intel keeps rolling out faster processors, these guys will keep boosting hp.

merc1 · June 2003

Interesting comparo. These cars are pretty much even on paper. However they differ greatly in styling and character. The Benz is the colder more efficient one, the Jag the warmer sensual one. I would say drive both and then decide. Normally I'd hands-down say Benz all the way, but this new XJ is a stunner, and its the first Jaguar since I've been paying attention to cars that actually stays with the Germans on technical, detail engineering. The Jaguar I think is also bigger inside. Tough choice.

aki86,

I have to think it will end somewhere, otherwise can you imagine 10 years from now!

M

ajvdh · July 2003

"A BMW specialist told me recently that BMW's are not made to be owned more than 60,000 miles"

Who was this "specialist?" The service writer at the Audi dealership? Sorry, but I know of too many very high mileage (>250k) daily driven Bimmers to believe that statement. In particular, the E30 3-series and the E28 and E34 5-series are known to be very hardy specimens. My '89 325is has only 160k, so we'll see how it holds up when it gets old. From the experiences of my friends who have owned them, I'd be less sanguine about the chances of an Audi making it that far.

prattster · July 2003

A BMW specialist told me recently that BMW's are not made to be owned more than 60,000 miles"

Of course they can be kept for more than this, anything can, it's just a matter of how deep your pockets are and how busy your mechanic is. <wink>

msgreen · July 2003

whomever said that BMWs aren't meant to be owned past 60K miles was either having a good time pulling someone's leg, or is full of it. Boredom is what causes most cars to be traded (gotta have the latest model), and sometimes reliability. Anybody buying a BMW as opposed to some other high-end marque has probably considered their sportiness and driving excellence. Few drivers get bored in BMWs - and they are as reliable as their owners want them to be (maintenance, etc). My 97 528 has 92K miles on it, looks and runs great, burns no oil and has had only "normal maintenance" done to it for seven years. Thousands more could tell similar stories (as could the owners of other makes).

dwongswong · July 2003

Your BMW may have high mileage on it, but I'm sure that there are high mileage vehicles in all car categories. My overall experience with BMW cars was very bad--as well as my sister and friends. We all have had many problems with them during and after the warranty expired. I had three BMW's; my sister had one; my college friend had two; my professor had one; and my boss had one. Base on talking with them, we all came to the conclusion that BMW's are great cars to drive, but terrible cars to own out of warranty. All of us had to pay too much extra money to fix the cars' numerous problems after the warranty ran out. I alone had to pay more than $16,000 to keep the three BMW's I had running. I kept my '94 525i until 1999; my '00 323ci until '03; and still got my '00 328ci. My wife and I drove a lot, so our cars ran out of warranty within two years.

The BMW specialist works at my local dealership. He's been with them 11 years. He told me that BMW's are made to drive fast, fun and sporty. But as far as keeping them out of warranty, he would not own one. He told me to always buy an extended warranty when I get a new BMW, because they usually have problems once they reach 60,000 miles. He said that's why he would never own one unless he was rich. Also, look in Consumer Reports Used Cars Guide. BMW's don't have good reliability scores. Most are average, and some are even below average.

This is not to start an arguement; just to tell you my experience with Bimmers.

merc1 · July 2003

Finally something on Maybach. Looks like they sold a whopping 13 cars in June:

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm?NewsID=2030702.003&Page- =1

M

ajvdh · July 2003

I have mine. I know too many people with high-mileage, reliable BMWs to put much stock in your "expert's" opinion. I also know too many Audi owners to believe that you'll see an improvement in long-term ownership costs by switching to that particular marque.

msgreen · July 2003

have had so much trouble with your Bimmers; however, your "expert" is full of it. Horror stories can be told about any make as well as success stories. However, to have some automotive "expert" (right) essentially claim that BMWs turn to junk at 60K miles is ludicrous. You need another source of advice.

libertycat · July 2003

1)'04 Jaguar XJ Type
2)Infiniti Q45
3)'04 Audi A8
4)Lexus LS430
5)Mercedes-Benz S Class
6)BMW 7 Series
7)Volkswagen Phaeton
Every one of these is a good car but this is the order in which I like them. I think Volvo needs to make an S100 to compete in this class. If you are interested in signing an internet petition for Volvo to make the S100 go to that chat under Future Vehicles/Volvo related. Also, the DTS (2006 Deville replacement) will be in this class so watch out Jaguar and Infiniti, this could be a class leader.

airmatic · July 2003

Is anyone going to the MotorTrend exclusive test-drive? If you go to their website, and click on the link saying exclusive luxury-sedan test drives, and request an invitation (they have lots of space still), you can test drive the 2003 S500, 745Li, and 2004 Audi A8L. you get 30 min. in each car, and get hands-on-experience, for free. I believe that they have 2 separate drives in S. California (LA) in July, and 2 or 3 in New York. Just wanted to know if anyones going

i basically agree with your list, libertycat, except slightly out of order:
1) '03 BMW 7-series
2) '03 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
3) '04 Audi A8L
4) Lexus LS430
5) ?

i don't know... the new Jag XJ never attracted me, neither did the Infiniti Q45 or the VW Phaeton.

oh' by the way... i also saw a new Maybach on the road yesterday. driving away from my S.Cal dealership, and it was beautiful- some pewter metallic-type color. I believe that it was the short-wheel base model.

merc1 · July 2003

I'm curious to know what you didn't like about the Audi and what you did like about the 7-Series. They also had the uber-VW there too??

libertycat,

My personal list:

Mercedes S-Class
Audi A8 (a very close second, I mean very close)
Jaguar XJ, BMW 7-Series (tie)
Infiniti Q45

I wouldn't want a LS430 even if it was given to me!

M

airmatic · July 2003

I'm curious to know what you didn't like about the Audi and what you did like about the 7-Series. They also had the uber-VW there too??

I was hoping that Audi would drastically redesign the flagship A8L. The front looks essentially the same (has the same general shape; same with the grille), the side looks well not that exciting. As for the rear, I dont know what to say. It just doesnt look the same to me as when the 2000 S-Class came out and when the controversial 7-series came out in 2002.

Now as for the 745Li
I just think that overall, it has the best design. Outside- the front truly does look like an eagle, with the eyebrows in the headlamps. The wide kidney grille looks majestic. But for me, and most beautiful aspect of the vehicle is the side-profile view. The shape, and lines, and chrome trim (I particularly enjoy viewing the rear doors on the Li model, with that opera window). Now, I must confess that the rear of the 7 is indeed strange, but sometimes, we have to accept different ideas, whether for the good or the bad.

Another part of the car that I love is the interior and performance. The inside looks like the interior of an airplane- the ways things are laid out the only negative issue I have with the interior design is the position of the iDrive display, as I believe it reduces visibility. Ah yes iDrive, another issue. I must say that even this system is more complicated than my MB S430s COMMAND system. But, as we have already seen, Audis MMI technology (incorporated in the new A8L) is basically based on it (I dont buy it when people deny that). Hey, this isnt the first time a new idea was widely rejected- I remember clearly when Acura (I believe) introduced the moon-roof, a feature that the Germans didnt seem to understand nor appreciate. Nowadays, almost every car, from Honda to Maybach, offers or features a moonroof. Now, enough of moonroof.

Now I am certainly not saying that MB builds bad cars like the S-Class. Of course, you really cant get any better than a S (not counting Maybach, Rolls Royce, Bently). A Mercedes will always be a Mercedes, and I really believe that is why Mercedes has such a high repeat-customer rate. Mercedes will always be first, and BMW, Audi, and Lexus will never pass MB.

As for the VW Phaeton, it will not be at the motortrend event; only the S500, 745Li, and A8L.

By the way, I went to my local VW dealership to view the new SUV, the Toureg, as well as any info regarding the phaeton. Apparently, he was new and had no idea about the Phaeton (but did know a lot about the Toureg). The Toureg was really beautiful, with striking resemblance to the Porsche Cayenne.

In my opinion, I dont know who on earth would buy a VW at that high of a price. I may as well get a MB, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, or Audi. The rear looks absolutely hideous in my opinion. I just dont understand how are they going to sell this product?

My best friend just got a 2003 SL55 AMG and a 2003 S500 4Matic together! He loves them, and is currently at a MB-hosted private Golf-event for patrons who purchase 2-or-more MBs at one time. He called during the party and said that there was an Iranian doctor who bought 8 MBs all at once! (gee, even in this economy!)

merc1- now I would like to know your opinion on the new Audi A8L (you say very close to the S-Class), and why you included the Jag and the Infiniti Q45 (i really don't understand the design team of the XJ, and i figure at the same price, you can get a much better car; LS430)

P.S.- you guys should check out this article on cnn.com/money about reliability (yes, the Japanese are still the best when it comes to reliability, I guess:

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/autos/bc.autos.durability/inde- x.htm?cnn=yes

ljflx · July 2003

Car and Driver did not speak all that highly of the new A8. In fact much of their story was negative. While they were at it they trashed the styling of the old A8 (as an appliance on wheels; by the way I thought the old car was a good lookin car so I'm not on the same page as these guys) and made sure everyone knew about Audi's moribund sales of the A8. They said the looks were improved over the old design but never said they were good - unless I missed it.

Personally - the A8's new style has grown on me though I'm not crazy about its' rear. But from the side and front it's a great looking car.

Now you know how I feel about these mags but I do take the individual car write-ups much more seriously. The only disconcerting thing I took from the story was that the car had a rough harsh ride - something no high end lux family car should have.

As for looks - they also reported on the BMW 5 series and thought the new design was somewhere between bold and beautiful. Amazing. I'm not even in the same chapter as these people - let alone on the same page. Bangle is a one man wrecking crew. I hope he doesn't wreck the 330CCI. That's the one BMW I really like and would consider buying - rather seriously.

Lastly - it was clear they were looking for negatives on the A8 and only positives on the 5 series. These guys are quite biased in my opinion.

merc1 · July 2003

Thanks for the evaluation and info.

Well as you know I'm blinded by the star, but I really love Audis too. I haven't been inside the A8 yet, just took a look at one on the dealer's lot on a Sunday. I'm drawn to if first by it's styling inside and out, then by it's engineering. I do find it to be disappointing that it isn't any lighter than any of the other cars in the class anymore. The S500 4Matic is actually a few pounds lighter and really shows up Audi's claimed advantage by using the expensive stuff. I'll have more on the A8 when I actually get to sit in one, or drive it if I'm lucky.

You have a friend that just bought a SL55 and S500 at the same time! Gee whiz. You guys just don't know how blessed you are to be able to do something like that, my other friend on this board has 3 Lexues, count them three. I can only imagine. A private party for people who buy 2 or more MB's at once huh...sounds very nice.

The VW SUV, truth be told totally shames the ML, of which I never, ever liked. I'll be so glad when it's replaced. I can see paying that much for the VW because it shares it's very being and most of it's engineering with a Porsche, a company that could be said to have even loftier engineering standards than VW. I think it will be a hit.

ljflx,

Hey, I was just talking about you! Anyway, I think they stated that the A8 they had was suffering from some type of glitch, concerning it's ride/suspension. I hope that was the case. I can't imagine such an awesome car being let down by a bad/nervous ride, as they indicated. The A8 just had it's best month ever in the U.S. for June, with 443 units sold.

Now it's no secret that Car and Driver is biased when it comes to BMW, and Honda. I can point out numerous examples, so I just tend to take their writeups of certain cars with a grain of salt.

Now for the 300K question...what did you think of their writeup on the Maybach? Also checkout Automobiles writeup on the "Bach" this month also, both magazines are saying the same thing....this is the best riding car in the world and probably the best car in the world period. They both mention my sole problem with the Maybach, it's styling. I too wish it were a little more seperated from the S-Class on the inside also. There were 13 Maybachs sold in June in the U.S. and Rolls has had to up production to 3 cars a week, so I guess somebody still has some money.

BMW's new styling direction hasn't failed them so far, with the new 7 selling far better than the old car ever did. The 5 doesn't look quite as bad so we'll just have to see. The new styling theme does work on the little Z4 roadster though, it's quite handsome. So maybe they're on to something???

M

libertycat · July 2003

Why don't u like the Q45 that much? Do u like the exterior styling? the interior styling? I like both. But the XJ Type has it beat for 2004 with its beyond beautiful interior.

ljflx · July 2003

The styling on the Maybach doesn't look as nice to me as before. It's definitely its weak point. Disreguarding that it sounds like its the best car in the world. Until Lexus builds one. Ah - I'm just kidding my friend.

By the way - whether you like it or not - the SC430 is a great car, fun to drive and very high end luxury. I just drove it again a week ago. I don't know what the heck I'm doing in 2004 when my leases are up. I'd like to try that Audi A8 but have no faith in its' reliability and if it doesn't ride smooth (the old one lacks the quality ride of an S or LS) it definitely has no chance. But I'll test drive it. I've got to have two AWD's and my wife is in love with RX but I must have 3 rows of seats. The new GX is nice but its not in the same league as the LX and I like the latters looks much more. But she hates driving such a large SUV. I started to think RX, A8 (but believe me it's nearly impossible for me to walk from the LS and the only other car that really grabs me is the S-500) and SC430. I wish they'd put AWD on the LS. Odds on favorites right now are RX, LX and LS (outside shot for SC - but it's not all that practical) - but I've got plenty of time to figure it out.

By the way its not unusual to see all Lexus or all MB's in a family's garage. The loyalty to both brands is very high.

Anyway I'm off on a much needed vacation - see you in a few weeks.

islamorada · July 2003

Just completed a long weekend of test driving the set and wondered if any of you may have noticed the same things.

The 745 - great ride, fun to drive, not a bangle fan (like hiding a great car in a very odd suit), thank goodness for voice commands (although it seems like great training to talk to yourself)

The A8L - much easier to get the hang of the electronics than the 745, had a wobble to the ride (best described by our 5 year old as "jello on a rock" - tight feeling in the action but finished out with a rocking motion), greatest level of toys for the bucks

S430 - solid, classic, lost to the BMW in the sort of ride quality I as looking for (sometime described as athletic)

Touareg - actually very surprised by the ride and capabilities of the new VW. Why buy a cayenne other than the fun of porsche/audi dealerships?

Gotta try some others to figure out where the vehicle selection will end up.

merc1 · July 2003

Well I'll tell you, the Q45 is a confused car. Is it a sports sedan or a full on luxury crusier? They marketed it as a sports sedan, of which it isn't. The only truly "sporty" sedans of that size are the S55, 745i (w/Sport package), S8 and XJR, and it doesn't come close to beating any of those cars. Now since it's priced similar to a 540i does it compete with it? Not even. To confuse matters more the M45 is here now and it's being marketed as s sports sedan. The Q45 is a left out of today's market, mainly by Infiniti's botched marketing of the car. It should have played the role as a luxury car first, sporty car second. It doesn't match the luxury of a S-Class or LS430, and isn't as sporty as say the 7-Series...so it's just like forgotten by most buyers.

The car itself is very good on the inside, but it's styling it unbalanced in my eyes. Way too much front and rear overhangs for me. The S-Class is the only car that manages to pull that off gracefully, especially in the rear.

For the first time I think I'm truly head-over-wheels for a Jaguar, this new XJ. What a car. Best of all it's very technical and functional, thus being able to truly compete with the usual German and Japanese cars by offering just more than styling/wood/leather. Job well done. Now bring back the XJ12!

No doubt about it for me, if there was no S-Class, the A8 would be next in line.

ljflx,

I'm curious to know if you know anyone with a Maybach yet? Yes the styling isn't the car's strongest suit, I feared that since day one.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the SC430, it's just a 2-door sedan by all account, it doesn't enough driving excitement for for 2-door car posing as a GT car. I should never, ever see or hear the word Buick when talking about a GT car. If I were you I'd try at least one German car for 2004, either the A8, S500 (try a sport or 4Matic model) or SL500 and keep two Lexuses. The A8 C&D tested was suffering from a glitch, so I'd wait to see what others say before writing it off after one roadtest.

Enjoy your vacation!

M

merc1 · July 2003

Finally here is the whole Mercedes-Benz SLR:

http://germancarfans.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=4349

The BMW 6-Series:

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=09919507

What yall think?

M

merc1 · July 2003

Why I like the A8 so much:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/audi/a8/100284559/roadtestarticle- .html?articleId=100355&editorialpage=photo.html

Man this thing is gorgeous inside and out, but especially inside.

M

michael_mattox · July 2003

The SLR is pretty...In a manly sort of way but it looks like an exact copy of a Corvette...Chevy does make nice looking cars.

michael_mattox · July 2003

The body is beautiful and so it the interior which looks like a LA430 interion..

I wish Lexus would copy their body style. The picture I saw of the 04 LS looks like a huge improvement for them over the 03 model.

fsv · July 2003

Doesn anybody have any ownership expirience with the car? I consider it more and more... It looks like it is the best value on the market, with 2 years/25,000 miles selling for around $25G's. I am looking forward to any information, any input will be highly appreciated... Thanx...

fenn · July 2003

Hello. I just came back to Town Hall, as I am in the market for a new car in the upscale sedan class. I am considering the 2004 Audi A8, and the 2004 Jaguar XJ8 at this point. I think that I have eliminated the 745i and MB E500...although I am still in my formative stages of this decision.

I am one of the few folks that currently owns a 2002 Infiniti Q45, which has been a great car, but it is approaching 50,000 miles, and I want to get out of it in the next few months. I like this car, but I am not going to get another one. To be candid, I might have gone back if they had updated and tweaked the car a bit, but Infiniti has chosen to let the Q45 stand as-is, and they are not going to do anything with the 2004 model. By the way. if anybody wants my thoughts about the Q45, I am happy to oblige. It really is a nice car for $50,000...although the resale is a bomb.

I was awaiting the arrival of the 2004 Audi A-8 anxiously, ever since seeing the exterior at the L.A. auto show this year. In person, I have to say that the car looks very good to me ---both inside and out. No disappointment for me. I test drove one, and had little complaint about the so-called busy or jiggly ride that Car and Driver and others have mentioned. In fact, it felt almost too luxo-smooth. The acceleration is decent, but it is not a scorcher. My 2002 Q45 feels a bit quicker....but they are in the same ballpark. I liked the interior look and the switchgear, controls and technology.

My problem with the Audi is the 70k plus, price tag. It may be worthy of this due to it's comparative quality and content, but I worry how the car will hold its value. I have a friend that got hit hard on the resale of his older generation 2001 A-8. As a high mileage driver I am forced to buy, rather than lease, and until I see that the new A-8 is more highly prized on the used car market, I worry about spending that much money on an A8 that I may trade out of in 2.5 to 3 years.

I also looked at the new 2004 XJ8. I was never a Jaguar fan and never considered this as an option in it's prior generation. I was very pleasantly surprised by the new Jaguar. It was comfortable, and felt great to drive. I also think that it is a decent value in this segment at about 60k without navigation.

I had considered looking at the MB E500, but I just borrowed my brother-in-law's new E320, and was not impressed by the space and feel of the car. The V8 in the E Class may be great, but I like the larger cars.

The BMW 745 is a great car, but I am just another of the many who cannot get over the ungainly rear end of this car. I have tried to talk myself into liking it, but every time I look at one from the rear I say to myself "what were they thinking?"

I am scheduled to do the S-Class A-8, 745i Motor Trend test drive this month in L.A. more later.

fenn · July 2003

I have owned many Q45's..although I will be jumping ship soon, as per my previous post...

To answer your question, the Q45's from 2000 to 2001 are nice, solid, comfortable cars. Not exciting, or highly inspirational, but they have good build quality and decent performance. Beware of small trunk and smallish back seat leg room. They are nice, dependable cars for the price....If you can get one with low miles that had a couple of years left on the factory warranty, it is a really good choice.

merc1 · July 2003

Well lets just say I disagree with that, the A8 interior actually doesn't look anything like the LS430's. The Audi has a much lower center console and some real designer touches to it, the LS430's (imo) interior is just a Avalon x3, lots quality, but not much style, especially with that gaping whole for the Nav screen.

The SLR looks like a Vette??? Sigh.

M

merc1 · July 2003

Hadn't read your post earlier. The Audi A8 isn't going to ever match the S-Class for resale, but it's getting better, and should be somewhere near the 7-Series. Car and Driver's test car was suffering from a glitch as far as it's ride was concerned. I think it's a wonderful car and second only to the S-Class in my book. Look at the A8's price as being a bargain compared to a S500, which can be had with awd and even more features, but for a whole lot more $$$$.

The Jaguar is much improved, also liked. The 7-Series by all accounts is a fabulous car as long as you don't have to look at or try to operate (the controls) it.

Autoweek just released their "best" issue, determined by subscribers (like me). The S-Class won followed by the A8, just as I would have voted.

M

dunac1 · July 2003

Looking for the best possible price that anyone has paid for a 2003 LS430 with Levinson/NAV package. Thanks.

fsv · July 2003

Don, thank you. I was and am still thinking about buying a used Q45 with lower mileage, 'cuz I think, that the quality of Q45, LS430 or Acura RL doesn't deterriorate so quickly, but the price goes down, and in Q's case - dramatically, what makes it a particularly good buy for people like me - I put on a lot of miles, and can not drive econoboxes - I am getting too tired from noise, vibration, etc - & I don't care how much gas it burns. And 01 car looks like a particularly good buy. Of course there is '02, whaich comes out of lease now, it looks better, is stronger and more sophisticated, but it is what - 10G's more? And I am afraid it will have problems same as early 90th Q's had - too much power was biting on reliability (though a lot depends on how the car was driven). Of course, if a good '02 Q for a reasonable amount of money crosses my path, I'll go for it. Does anybody know - preferably from personal experience, what are trade-in prices for '02 cars with around 30K's mileage? I've heard it like in low $30th. Is it true? And what things should I look out buying a Q?

cheezhed · July 2003

I looked this car over quite thoroughly. As with all Audis the interior as with Lexus, is probably the nicest in the business. The car handles very well although not a rocket. The problem is simply: overpriced and poor relative resale. Like Q45's it would represent a great opportunity on a used basis, eventually.

fsv · July 2003

though my interest is Q and I definitely don't want for discussion to branch out - Audi's stylin' is too flashy, and quality "lasst viel mehr uebrig wuenschen" - in other words, not even close to LIA (Lexus/Infiniti?Acura). This is the reason Audi's depriciate so much, nothing else. They are excellent cars, the way I see it, with great dynamic, handling, really nicest (IMHO) interiors in the business, but they style them like Civics. Cheaper cars should dramatically change it's appearance every year, not $70,000 cruisers. That's why I am attracted to Infiniies - looks the same for longer time. Same thing do Lexus and Acura. Europeans recently go wild - A.m. Audi changes looks of the car every half a year, BMW recently is nothing short of controversial inside out (I was in 745 a week ago - didn't know where to start from, what to touch, etc), MB's look plain strange - too italian, and too sweet. Obviously, it is tough competition between them in Europe - but most of their cars are sold here - so, why do they do that?
Also, IMHO, the new Dodge/Chrysler cars look promising - Magnum, and C300 - if I could get one of them for low $30th, I will buy one - a new car is a new car, and definitely they will not depriciate as bad as a brand new Q45 - different class, different customers. Domestic brands are getting very sophisticated now - look at Caddy - it will be wrong to discount them - again, in my opinion, which could be wrong or right.

fenn · July 2003

I can tell you that my 2002 Infiniti has been relatively bullet proof, with the exception of the driver's power seat mechanism, and some repair bulletins. The resale is quite atrocious, so you might find a bargain if you keep your eyes open for a used one over the next several months. FYI, I got a prelim trade in quote on my high mileage (49,000) 2002 Q45 at about $26,500...that hurts. I may try to sell it myself at about 30k---- if that looks feasible.

I previously had a '99 Q45T, which is the same generation as the 2000 and 2001's that you are considering, but the T had the sport adjustable suspension. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it was trouble free and comfortable. If you can buy one in the low to mid 20's it is a good buy, and you will be at the advantageous end of the the Q45's unfortunate depreciation history.....

sysadb · July 2003

Don, the resale on the current model has been better than the previous generation. (although marginal) The milage is killing yours. At the other extreme, I saw an 02 on eBay 2 months ago that was bid up to over $46k and still did not meet the dealer's reserve. It had all the options and only had 5k miles, which put it at the highest end of the resale scale. Still...I figure the car originally listed for about $59k and could be bought at aroung $55k, so if someone was willing to pay over $46k for a 1.5 year old copy that's pretty good compared to previous models.

BTW, the design is only two years old. Why do you feel they should change it for 04? I thought they addressed two big items in 03 when they moved the CD changer out of the glovebox and changed the shift points to take more advantage of the engine. Don't see much else they need to do...

DB

fsv · July 2003

Q45 - it looks like the worst competition to Q45/M45 is standing next to them in the Infiniti own dealerships and is called FX35 and FX45 - they are flying off the shelf like hot pancakes. It is amazing to see, that G35 (esp the coupe) and both FX's are nonnegotiable on the price and Q/M45 are sold at 5-7G's discount. Allegedly 3 years old Lexus 430 is of better quality than any other car sold new; I don't think there is any difference quality between 430 and Q45 3 years old; this way, you can have a much better car, "barely broken in" (as Toyota says selling it's precertified cars) for much lesser price than G35.
Don, of course you should try to get more money for your car - but here, in NY/Tristate area 2-3 years old Q45 with under 30,000 miles sell for under 20G's - $18,000 is considered really not bad on a trade-in, that's why I am going for it...

pat · July 2003

Nice to see you again, DonFenn - it has indeed been a while. :-)

fenn · July 2003

The latest Q45 is actually 2.5 years old, but evolutionary changes would be expected, especially with a car that is getting so little attention. For sake of comparison, the Lexus LS430 is getting a face lift for 2004, after only 2 model years.

For cosmetics,, I would have hoped that they might have tweaked or reworked the Q45's grill, trim, etc. and come our with new wheel options as a minimum. A bit of added HP and performance would have been nice too. By contrast, for 2004 they are adding options and content to the Q45's ugly step child, the M45, to give it more of the Q45 virtues. That seems odd.

airmatic · July 2003

merc1: maybe you should read this article (it's not too long)

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000166286.cfm

for now, i think i'll stick with my S430

steher · July 2003

And u take this article for serious?
With an BMW-advertisment below?
Ha ha ha!
When all people would make their buying decisions depend on such articles, then - Goodnight!

merc1 · July 2003

I have to ask the same question as the poster above. Autospies will say whatever the REAL automotive sources say, just like the bunch of followers they are. They are without a doubt the worst website for automotive information. Do you ever notice how their "inside" is usually info already known to everyone, and/or it's already in print in a real publication like Autoweek. Autoweek can't be topped for prompt and accurate news delivery, autospies is garbage. Some examples:

"The SL55 is being canceled for 2004".....they even posted a made up lie about a customer that said: "When I tried to place an order for a 2004 SL55 I was rejected and was told I could put a deposit down on a SL65, which per my salesman replaces the SL55 for 2004". Not! The SL65 hasn't even been officially announced yet, better still Mercedes would never, ever cancel such a car in it's SECOND model year. Absurdish rubbish.

The SL is getting a cloth top for 2004. This is even more absurd than the above.

I find it rather pathetic of them to post what C&D said and then agree with it, knowing they've never driven the car.

You owe it to yourself to drive the A8 before writing it off. Car and Driver's test car appears to have been suffering from a software glitch concerning it's suspension. The rest of their article really didn't say anything bad about the car, they more or less weren't "wowed" by the car. They mainly harped about four things" 0-60 times, styling, ride and it not being the lightest car in the class. That last point I somewhat understand because it's actually heavier than at least one of it's competitors (S500 4Matic), so that kinda makes one question why they should put up with buying an aluminum car if it isn't lighter than the rest, by a significant margin. The Jaguar XJ shows a clear weight advantage by using aluminum. However the A8's styling and ride are both very debatable, especially since their car was suffering from a glitch. It's 0-60 times are a little behind the S500 and 745i, but it's still within the class, so I don't see the big deal there either. I guess by now you realize I really like this car. Check out Edmund's review of it.

M

airmatic · July 2003

i joined this discussion simply for the sake of pleasure, to learn information, and share polite thoughts and ideas. not to be attacked.

merc1- well guess what? i HAVE SEEN And TEST DRIVEN the new Audi A8L (actually, several times; one of them is my neighbors; and the other time a close-friend). and i will be driving it AGAIN for the THIRD time within A MONTH.

although it a beautiful sedan, it just doesn't meet my expectations, in terms of styling and creativity. they really could have made more bold and interesting design, but i guess they decided to "play it safe" and be more conservative. even the Lexus LS430 looks just as uninteresting and boring as the A8L, in my opinion.

face the facts, even the editors at edmunds.com didn't particularily like the design of the rear.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/audi/a8/100284559/roadtestarticle- .html?articleId=100355&editorialpage=photo.html

as for autospies-
it's obvious that autospies isn't a website that's accurate or true, and i know that. for the love of god, i was simply offering you a link to an interesting story.

steher and merc1-
i don't appreciate it when people insult my intelligence.

airmatic

libertycat · July 2003

has the features, room, power, and handling to compete with LS430, 7 Series, XJ Type, S Class, and A8. It simply is a value at its low price. It has the features like a great stereo, lots of room, luxurious interior, voice recognition, back-up camera, etc. And boy does it have a powerful engine, Wow! It really is only $5,000 under a LS430.

fsv · July 2003

Q45 vs M45 - M45 is so-o-o pointless, in my opinion - I wonder, what resale on it will be...

merc1 · July 2003

What in the world did anyone say to insult your intelligence? I guess you took my post as arguing?? That surely wasn't what I meant or was trying to do. I didn't know you drove the car so good grief calm down. If you had already driven it then why even reference a roadtest when yours is the one that counts?

There is nothing to "face" by Edmunds not liking the rear of the car, who cares. They can't tell me or anyone else how a car looks to them....someone is way too touchy about this.

M

steher · July 2003

My post was never ment to insult your intelligence! I only asked you, if you take this article for serious?! In my opinion, good discussions consist of facts and figures and opinions (positive & negative). But listing up all the negative aspects of a car is very easy, and shows also, that knowledge is limited (I mean not your knowledge airmatic!!). I'm sorry, if my post has "attacked" :-) you, but if someone shows such links, he must be able to deal with such posts like mine and merc1's!

fsv · July 2003

and this is supposed to be discussion projested by the spirit of the car being discussed - calm and relaxed - and where it is, this spirit? Hey, guys, let's be emotional ONLY re. the cars. Peace. Frieden. Cars.

fenn · July 2003

Everything is subjective. I personally like the way that the new A8 looks. It is not exactly revolutionary or edgy... However, I am not sure that seeking a revolutionary look or design is what makes marketing sense in the 70k luxury car segment.

I find the A8 to be clean looking and sleek for a big car. IMHO, much more so than the current LS 430, which Lexus is going to update a bit in the fall.

I have driven the A8 a couple of times, and really like it. It is not a thrill ride, but it is a great driving vehicle for a big luxury car. I am also "wowed" by the interior, which is where I am going to be sitting most of the time.....

For those thrill seekers that want a big Audi that thrills: wait for the S8 next year!

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