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Comments
M45 is pointles; as opposite to any well executed car that makes a statement as the benchmark in styling, handling, performance & engineering sophistication. M45 is, may be, not a bad car by itself, wouldn't be out there and prior to it's existance Q45; in this situation, with Q45 being so poorly advertised and undermarketed, a car, that has the same size, same engine, same performance, nearly the same interior, and pricetag nearly 20G's lower (in real sales prices) + the car is plain ugly + still lagging behind against it's competition such as BMW540, Audi A6, Lexus GS400 is pointless. You have one excellent car, that is still a lame duck in sales, and now you put on sales floor nearly the same thing - which sells even worse, but competes with your own struggling flagship... And you have to discount this car nearly 20% - it is a killer for the image of a luxury brand. Situation is not like BMW745/BMW545 (or is it 540?) - same engine which is adequate on the bigger car makes smaller car speed demon. It is simply very awkward situation. The only good variable here is that C. Ghosh is still running Nissan, and this situation hopefully will not last long, and he'll straighten it out. M45 is not more than a placeholder for the market segment (I believe it is built on the japanise Sima platform(hope this is correct name), and Q45 in the current form will not last long, and previous gen. Maxima fate is awaiting them - soon better cars will replace though good, but uninspiring current cars. And, we should hand it to Ghosh - look at the parade of Altima, G35, Maxima, coming Titan, Murano. It's not a big deal, to make a mistake, as long as it is corrected promptly.
P.S. don't misunderstand me - I love Q45 and already love M45 for them being excellent cars, that have devastating depriciation in two years. Better than that could be cash given to me only...
One thing not mentioned in any of the posts concerning the comparison to other luxury cars is the large difference in the real cost of a lease. I will be paying approximately 2/3 the price of a lease of a 745 or a S 500. The way I see it, I'm getting a car that is 95% or more of the competition, at a bargain price.
If I may ask, what are the lease terms?
As for the M45, there is no doubt that this was not a long term development project. It was a "quickie" new model based on an existing chassis and components. It is a price leader in its class for the HP that it offers....... It is a decent car that has a very nice big V8 engine, at a good price.
Yes, Libertycat, you can compare an M45 to a Q45 as a comparison of two different model classes, much like a GS series vs LS series Lexus... However, both Lexus models underwent their own independent development and evolution. The M45 is more of a late comer, built from the Nissan/Infiniti parts bin. It has a Q45 engine and dash put into a 5 year old Nissan chassis. The car had to live with the limitations of the body size and chassis, so interior is cramped, and the trunk is small.....I am not really trying to knock the M45. I am just saying that it is not "the state of the art" car that Infiniti needs in this class. Worse yet, putting so much of the Q45's good stuff in a cheaper car only hurts the current Q45.
When the "new" Infiniti comes out with the 2005-2006 replacements for the Q45 and M45, I am betting that you will see some fresh ideas and innovation.
Here's the latest from Car & Driver:
2004 Audi A8 4.2:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- - - id=6853&page_number=1
2004 Jaguar XJR:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=6849&page_number=1
Just a note on that XJ, the color in the C&R pictures is not a standard available color on the XJR - "Quartz" is only available as a standard color on the XJ8 and Vanden Plas; the tested XJR had a $1,000 extra for its special custom paint. Don't ask me about the logic there - the paint is a standard color on every other car Jaguar produces.
1) Audi A8L
2) Mercedes S500
3) BMW 745Li
4) Mercedes E500
5) Lexus LS430/Infiniti Q45 (tie)
My ratings are based on these criterias:
1) exterior looks
2) interior looks and feels
3) quality of fit and finish
4) bang for the bucks
5) reliability
I would have ranked the Japanese cars higher if they looked as good as the Germans.
My rankings for luxury suv's:
1) Range Rover
2) Lexus LX470
3) VW Toureg
4) Porsche Cayenne
5) BMW X5 4.6
I also wanted to say that this is a discussion on cars. It is based on ones' opinions and experiences with the cars. Some people take these opinions too seriously. Remember this is based on subjectivity. Your opinion is right for you, and my opinion is right for me. There really is no right or wrong. If you like the car, then good for you. If you don't, then say so so that others can view your opinions and make a judgement on whether to purchase the car or not. There is never a need to take a harsh tone with anyone. I've been on the receiving end as well as some of the others that I have read on the board. As always, drive safely out there.
You all would probably say I'd choose the XJ-Series as my favorite of the bunch, and if that is your guess, you are correct. However, I don't dislike any of the cars of this class either - okay, the trunk on the 7 is not to my liking, but it is a nice car even though it's not my favorite; I see no point in hating or disliking any car, though being apathetic is understandable. For SUV's, I actually like the Cayenne - despite all of the criticism aimed at it - and the Range Rover, but that's for another board.
aramus,
There is no way a Q45 is %95 of those cars, they simply out-class, and outdo the Q45 is way too many areas. If it were truly that way the Q would be a lot more popular like the car that truly is closer to being a high percentage of what the competition offers, that car being the LS430.
jagboyxtype,
Imagine that, you and I both like Porsche's "truck". Who would have thunk it.
M
I am assuming that prestige is including in the looks category and I would also give MB the top mark there....
However Lexus scores #1 in the other 4 categories why did you rate it down with the Q45?
May be I am wrong, and beauty is in the eye of beholder, but I still don't know, how Lexus outdoes Q45 - Q45 looks better, more athletic and cosmopolitan and less particularly japanise (unlike Lex), both cars have nearly the same amenities; I like Q45's 340 ponies, etc. And Lexus - everybody has it: I hate to be part of the herd. And, in the way everybody is having a Lexus - to me, there is some vulgarity in it. Paying so much money ideally should give you some freedom, at least freedom of your mind and choice - why everybody still prefers to have freedom of choosing the same uniform? That's why, also, I like Q45 - it's underdog status, which is confronting Lexus/Mercedes duo, makes it nearly antiestablishment; I like give people chance, and I don't think choosing Q45 over any other car in this category would be a mistake.
I disagree that with this simplistic stance, using sales as the determining factor. (Merc1, based on sales figures, your Mitsubishi is not a very strong car either, but I assume that you like it)
The Q45 does offer many similar attributes to other cars. They may have missed on the styling and curb appeal, but it is a very nice car with lots of content and a nice power train. On a lease basis it is "a nice drive"... and it does offer similarities to some of the more costly cars in this class.
Do I like the new A8 better? Sure, I may even buy one. But, the Audi also costs about 15k more when similarly equipped.
I have "no axe to grind" against Infiniti... since I own a 2002 Q45, which is my fifth Q45 since 1990.
DonFenn-
I agree with you on your view of the "simplistic stance". If sales were a determining factor in telling how great a car is, then all of those Camry and Corolla buyers must be seeing something that we're not. The Q just suffers from being a less-well-known offering in a market with well established and not necessarily better competiton. I don't know about others here, but the first few names that pop into *my* head when I think "high-end luxury" for a nano-second are Mercedes and Jaguar. Further thought then leads to BMW, Lexus, Audi,.......... Infiniti. The Q just doesn't have its name thrown around so much that the public knows about it, but that doesn't make it an underperformer in any way compared to the competition in terms of the car you get. And what it lacks in sales, it gains back in exclusivity and uniqueness; it's not being another "cookie-cutter" overly mass-produced so-called "luxury" car that is used as a taxi cab in Germany.
Merc1-
I'm just wondering, why would you purchase a Japanese car when in your opinion European cars are so superior in every aspect? A nice C-Class is only a few thousand more than a Mitsubishi, especially for the Spyder.
Just kidding.
Still nobody want's to tell me how much they leased the car for. I'll be annoyingly whining in 5 minutes. Ah-a-a-a...
Cadillac name was forever tarnished when GM put Cadillac on the Chevy Cavalier and on an Opel and now with Cadillac on a Chevy Avalanche.
On Q45 styling - it may use some work, of course, but what would work greatly for this car, would be slightly stretched version of the car, like Audi has slightly longer A8. And, visually it would be more appealing. And in general, they could make it slightly roomier inside. Same, as they did to Maxima - same engine, bigger car; not only people who are loyalist went after it, but the guys who would normally go for other brands switched to it. Incidently, is Max roomier than Q45? Hm, let me think....
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Infiniti has stopped any significant effort in marketing the car, and passed on any tweaks or updates of significance for the 2004 model year...Meanwhile, Lexus is giving an update to the LS430 and BMW is going to clean up the rear fascia of the 7 series. Both of these models were unveiled within about 6 months of the current Q45, and they are still getting some freshening for 2004 ....Why not the Q45?
Infiniti is just leaving the Q45 as-is with a new color option and a minor transmission shift modification. It is as if they just gave up on this Q45..That is why I am looking elsewhere for my next car.
With respect to the Q45's size...The interior is spacious from the driver's seat. I am 6'3" and I find my seating very ample. The problem is that the backseat is relatively cramped.
Again, current Nissan management looks very capable and I don't think they will abandon the segment. I suspect, there is something going on in Infiniti's design kitchen - and so far, with the new French chef they've got, the dishes come out very tasty. Let's just wait.
By the way, I was told that they may even drop the Q45 model designation and come out with a totally new model designation for the Infiniti flagship.
I would think twice prior to killing Q45 nameplate - not a single person I know has ever gave any negative comments regarding this car. Moreover, lack of Infiniti's attention to the car and extremely poor marketing is what stops people from continuing ownership of Q45.
The Q just came out for the 02 model year, so thats why its not getting any refresh for 04, plus the car has been a sales dud, so it's hard for Nissan to justify the money for something like that.
Bottom line the Q45 is a good car, but when it comes to S, A8 and 7-Series territory being a "good" car doesn't cut it. It's about %70 percent of those cars, no where being %95. It's really a good car in search of proper marketing and some fine-tunning if they truly intend to position it as a S-Class, 7-Series or A8 alternative.
jagboyxtype,
Exclusiviity is a often-used excuse when a car doesn't sell well. If you were to say the Jag is exclusive I'd agree, they didn't go for volume in the first place, never really have with the XJ. Thats not Infiniti's case. So the S-Class is a cookie-cutter design because its used a taxicab in it's home country? You said that just to take a shot right old friend?
M
How you feel about a car and it's position in the market are two very different things. I feel the same way about the A8, but Audi has done it right for 2004, and it's sales should show this soon. The S and 7-Series are "pitiful"? Ok.
M
M
I think your own protective nature of your favorite brand has caused you to sometimes believe that people are trying to bash when they really aren't. I'm the same way, so we both need to cool down on it a bit with that. We've got to come to realize that these are only opinions, and what does it matter what someone says about a car - in this case, "nothing" is the answer and the key to being enlightened. Really, nothing more was meant by the comment than to say that the Q45's low sales do gain it more exclusivity - be it through not selling well or the company's own decision to make it a low volume car, it still ends up being more exclusive than its much faster selling competitors. It doesn't matter how it becomes exclusive - what matters is that it is exclusive.
So, we're old friends again now, old sport?
Here, as a tolken of good will, I offer this newfound review of the XJ.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosconsumer/0307/16/g03-218791.htm
Despite them liking the car, through my experience in reading their other works, *my opinion* (just in case you like them - really don't want to offend) of them is that they are pretty worthless writers. But sometimes they offer a few good bits, and here, they do offer some of the things I've been saying - like how the XJ is on a modified and lengthened S-type platform; the DEW98, which is still a Ford design, but strengthened with some bracing enough to keep rigidity when cast in aluminum. See, and you like this "not-so real" Jaguar! :-) <-see it!?
Well you know we can live/die by car reviewers. Most curse them when their view doesn't line up with their own. I'm guilty of that when it comes to BMW and Car and Driver, other than than I pretty much agree with them *most* of the time. There are exceptions. I do find Edmunds' first drives sometime suspect at times. Things "like I couldn't fit my Arizona Ice-Tea in the cupholder" have to be laughed at, imo.
As you know I'm a big fan of the new XJ, it's just what Jaguar needed in the premium segment. Is there any hope of another XJ12? I did read where there might be a long wheelbase version in a couple of years. I voted it "World-Class" on the site you linked, surprisingly %37 of the voters rated it as acceptable? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion at all.
M
As far as people criticizing M-B for knowing how to make world class luxury cars and more utilitarian vehicles too, from a logical standpoint, the person badmouthing the marque because of that actually looks pretty stupid. Look, they know how to make ALL those different vehicles! OMG! - they make a dump truck - yeah, even Honda can't make one of those, and they advertize how they can make everything from an ATV to an NSX. It's just plain silly to criticize them for having the know-how to diversify; it's like picking on the nerd who scored a 1600 on his SAT's - ha! ha! - look who should really be laughing. Know what I mean?
As for Q's exclusivity, I see your point about the differences, I RESPECT IT, I still believe more firmly in my own opinion, but I'll agree wholeheartedly to disagree (without one of our "battles" - that's what I'll call them now :-) ).
M
See you around later, old sport.
-JBX
BMWs also are highly unusual as taxis. And they have not won the police car procurement in a while for all I know. The Munich area is about the only place in Germany where you'll still see beemer police cars for obvious reasons.
Mercedes have been seen as great taxi cabs for one obvious reason that actually makes them appealing: long diesel tradition, and longevity.
At the time of that spotting, the X-type had just come out - the Jagtaxi was an XJ (X300), meaning the Jaguars have been taxis for quite some time even before the Jaguars became more popular with new entries.
Also, these are British, but the rest of the European police force I believe looks about similar in terms of the colorful paintjobs. Yes, most Jaguar police cars and taxis will probably be found in the U.K. playing "cops and robbers" like their Mk 2 ancestors, but around the German and French border, you may spot an S-type police car. Sorry I didn't snap photographs of those while I was there (we have to keep up appearances, you know), but perhaps these will help, despite them being British:
XJ40
http://www.nps.gov/uspp/images/jag.jpg
X-type
http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/napfm/fleet/fleetmod/fleet7.jpg
X-type
http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/napfm/2002/images/jaguar.jpg
S-type
http://www.fantasycars.com/sedans/police/photos/uk_dorset_jaguar2- .jpg
S-type rear
http://www.fantasycars.com/sedans/police/photos/uk_dorset_jaguar.- jpg
S-type
http://policecanada.ca/GRC105.jpg
S-type side
http://policecanada.ca/grc105B.jpg
As for the "high speed interceptor" term, that wasn't mine; an article I read whose link now seems broken had been discussing the roles of the recently-added-to-the-fleet X-types in some British police force and all of the technology added to the cars.