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Comments
Thank for the info.
Thanks for the reply.
Vinnie
Thank for the info.
update the it flutters less but still flutters. at 75k the engine should not need rebuilding but then they don't make them like they used too either.
I looked in the fuse box, and all the fuses there are good. but there was no fuse marked "Accessory". Is there another fuse box on this thing? Or is there an inline fuse somewhere that could cause this problem? any information would be helpful, thanks.
Can't wait till the wife lets me trade the pig in on a Caravan.
Objective- 265000 mile van...new EGR valve, clean IAC valve, new plugs wires, spark plugs, rotor, radiator.
Temperature sensor checked out ala Haynes manual as OK electrically and coolant level is fine. The van seemed to idle less rough and took less time to smooth out after topping up a minimal amount of coolant.(Maybe my imagination?) It still did not seem "right" I keep re-visiting the fuel pump idea with my online advisor yet he never gave any response just directed me to "free parts store advise". Meanwhile van did not start not start, engine won't turn over...it tried for a second the first time yet failed after that. The fuel pump can be heard at the gas tank working. I pulled the starter and took it in and it worked on two benches. I was directed to a possible bad fusible link or some other wiring. I checked all wires from the battery to ground; to the starter and all are passing at least 12V even the one with the fusible link that connects to the generator/alternator. Initially with this little cheap battery alternator tester I got 5V when connecting the positive cable from the battery to the other two wires that connect to the started solenoid from the alternator. Since the alternator connects to ground it appears a circuit is being made here. I decided to double check with my UEI multimeter and it registered 12V at this point which I trust more. So it appears the wiring to the starter is OK? Why won't the van start?? Is the idle problem and the starting problem related or just coincedence. Can anyone shed some light because I am about to replace the starter and hook everything back up but I wanted to make sure I did not miss anything diagnostically
We have a 2001 Safari AWD with 124,000 kms. It came factory with P215/75R rims and rubber. Our van pulls ok under 50 mph but on the hiway above 55 mph, she feels very sluggish. Too sluggish. Like an old tired dog. If wondering, our van has factory 3.43 gears. Many have told me that our AWD should have been designed with 3.73 gears - due to its extra 300 lbs of AWD tranny equipment. Unlike some Safaris, our van is only used for family trips, to/from sports events and pulling up to 3,500 lbs utility trailer. When only me driving on the hiway, its ok (sluggish but tolerable). But if cargo and/or pulling a utility trailer the hiway (especially against a wind), our van often drops into 3rd gear. That's how much she's "lugging" on the hiway when between 60-65 mph.
Instead of changing the FWD and RWD gears, I was thinking of installing P215/70R tires instead. At 60 mph, our speedo will only be out 3 mph but it will have higher engine revs (and less weighted tires to spin). Being an AWD, will smaller rubber (same rims) make its AWD system do weird things? Will its ABS system do weird things as well? In other words, has anyone tried 4 x P215/70R tires on their AWD van without any problems?
thanks.
.
If you do really want to just change the tires, go all the way down to 215/60/15. I really don't think it will do much good for your problems, but it won't have any adverse affects on your rig except to kill your MPG.
Sounds like the gears in your van's rear end are going (or starting to go). Might want to get an automotive shop to investigate it further.
If wondering, Safaris/Astros do have under built rear ends. The "most often" hold up during normal driving conditions but tend to blow when towing many hours above 4,000 lbs. Here's a small cut / paste from one consumer report:
--------------
It is possible to modify the rear differential to increase durability in intensive usage. To do this, install a bigger oil pan and fill with a high grade oil. 85W140 for standard (non-locking) differentials, and for antislip differentials use 70W90 synthetic oil.
Source file: http://www.apa.ca/template.asp?DocID=23#General Motors (look for GENERAL MOTORS Chevrolet Astro, GMC Safari) in the list.
--------------
As a suggestion, get your local auto shop to replace the oil in its rear end. Go with the thicker 85W140 (or 70W90) Synthetic oil and hopefully, the whining sound will go away.
Hope this helps...
.
LosLowboy
good luck
what am i missing what makes fuel pump work one day and not the next and work again another day
(95 safari awd)
Thanks for the reply. This is a GMC SAfari V6 with 260000 1995 with Auto tranny. I have posted info on the Safari site and responses ran out as to what to try.
When the key is turned the van makes a sound of the engine trying to start . I can see the belts turning and this has been described to me as "starting" but the engine will not "catch and fire up". This appears to be cranking but not turning normally.
Yes the starter worked on two benches and I as well had it refurbished and replaced the solenoid.
I can do the fuel compression check. I thought the engine had to be running for that so I will get my hands on a test unit and check it.
The van has new distributer and rotor and I replaced the plugs and wires but will check the "spark". I replaced the ignition coil because the resistence was not to specification per Haynes.
I replaced the fuel filter yet have not dropped the tank to clean it out. I would hate to think how I got "trash" in my tank. The van has been vandalized previously and there have been some mischief going on in the neighborhood.
The engine was running very well prior to the "rough idle situation...we had driven the van to Disneyworld in May. Actually while I was working on the rough idle I applied some fuel system cleaner and the next day or two is when it stopped starting...hmm? Any suggestions?How do I check the valve timing?
-----------------------------------------------------------
My Response:
OK, First things First, lets get the terminology straight so that we are all speaking the same language here. Your engine is "Turning over" when you turn the key to start, that means the engine crankshaft is rotating and all related parts are moving. You engine "Turns over" but does not "Start". OK, we got that? Now, when the engine turns over, does it seem to turn over at about normal speed? Meaning does it sound very sluggish when it turns over, or more like normal? Next, I'm assuming it turns over about normal, and for now we assume it has spark, so the next logical thing to check is "Fuel Pressure" NOT "Fuel Compression" as you said. You use a strange mix of words that complicates simple things. Please try to stick with me on the correct terminology. You check the fuel pressure with the ignition on and engine off, because the electric fuel pump in the gas tank starts when you turn on the key. Do you hear the electric fuel pump start to run when you turn on the key? It should run for a couple of seconds or more, then stop as it builds up pressure. Do you hear it? If you DO HEAR it, the proceed with the "Fuel Pressure Test". If you DO NOT HEAR the fuel pump, then do the fuel pressure Test" to verify that there is indeed NO fuel pressure, then check the fuel pump relay and check the electrical circuit, there may be a reset button for the fuel pump. Consult your manual for locations. Once you have the fuel pump running and have fuel pressure at the fuel rail pressure test port on the engine, check to see how MUCH fuel pressure you have, I would guess between 30 to 60 pounds, but check your manual to see what the specs say the prssure should be. If pressure is ok and within limits, then proceed with further diagnosis. If fuel pressure is low, you need to find out why. You said you already replaced the fuel filter, but did not mention if the fuel that came out was dirty or not. You should always carefuly pour the fuel from the old filter over a white paper towel and look for any dirt, and Please put out your ciggarett before you start doing this! No open flames or heat sources anywhere near where you are working, Safety First! If there is dirt or odd color liquid, then you may need to pull the fuel tank, best to do this with the tank almost empty. The electric fuel pump in the tank has a filter/strainer on it that can possibly get clogged. It may need to be cleaned or replaced. If you have a problem with vandals in your neighborhood, you might need to get a locking gas cap. Once you determine that the fuel system is good and you have good fuel pressure at the fuel rail pressure port we will go farther with this diagnosis.
Next things to check if no start after the fuel pressure is known to be good:
#1 Ignition - Is there Good Spark at all the Spark Plugs? Are all the spark plugs clean and dry? (you can't fire dirty or fouled spark plugs)
#2 Check to see if fuel is getting into the engine - Spray a little gasoline or starter fluid into the Throttle Body intake while cranking the engine to see if it tries to start that way. If it tries to start, and you know you have good fuel pressure in the fuel rail, then there is a fuel injector problem or throttle Body Problem. If still no start, continue further diagnosis.
#3 Check to be sure the engine has the proper cylinder compression pressure in each cylinder. All cylinders should be within 20% of each other, and not low overall, check your manual for compression specs, I would guess that anything below 140 pounds would be low.
Let us know what you find.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
P.S. and Yes, Disney World is very nice this time of year, I went there the day after Thanksgiving, it was really nice that day. March is good too, May starts to get too hot for me.
The engine sounds normal as it and the related parts are trying to start. After so many attempts it gets sluggish so I've been charging the battery and this helps but it still won't start.
I got a fuel pressure test kit(Yes it is running when the key is turned) and will proceed to test the pump pressure, spark plug condition and try spraying into the throttle body while attempting to start it to see if this will happen.
At one juncture with this when I was trying to crank the van I heard a pop and smoke came from the top of the engine. This hasn't happened since but I wonder what that may have indicated...something sparked somewhere?
If they are OK then I will move to the injection system. This particular system is not servicable(CMFI) so it has to be replaced and is inside the intake manifold. At least I am getting some positive results so far...
If the cylinder compressions all checked out OK, then the next thing to check is to see if the injectors are injecting fuel into the engine. If this is the problem, the engine would start and run for a few seconds when you spray gas or starting fluid into the throttle body while cranking the engine. IF the engine starts when spraying the gas into the throttle body, then the next step is to determine why the gas is not going through the injectors. They are either be plugged or they are not firing. If this is the case, get a "NOID LIGHT" at the auto parts house and connect it to one of the fuel injector wire plugs. Be sure to get the right Noid lights, as they sell different ones for different cars. The light should flash when the injector is supposed to fire. If no flash, that means the signal for the injector is not coming from the computer. If the Noid light did not light, then try the Noid light on each injector wire, and see if it lights on any of them. If the noid light DOES FLASH, on every injector, then the injectors will have to be removed and either replaced or cleaned. You should use NEW O-RINGS when replacing the injectors, unless you are sure that they are very good.
So check all of that, and then report your findings back here, and we can diagnose further.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
1. It appears that the plugs should be tested for "spark good" regardless if I clean wet ones or replace. This should give me also an indication of the condition of the wires carrying the spark?
2. Does "blocking the throttle open" refer to not letting the air intale valve close after opening it with the gas pedal or by hand?
3. Would "the battery charger" refer to a standard unit such as I use when I take the battery out for charging and hook it uo to an electrical outlet.
4. When you state "spray gas or starting fluid into the TB while cranking" does this mean while my assitant is turning the key I spray into the chamber. I did this nad got quite a minor explosion out the chamber and the van did not start. Thank God for relexes. A few hairs on the back of my hand ashed...the instructions on the starter fluid I picked up say to "spray for 3seconds and then start"? Which would be more effective. I'll move my hand next timebefore I say "hit it"
2. "Blocking the throttle open" means holding the throttle open while cranking the engine during the cylinder compression testing, this ensures that you get enough air into the cylinders to build up the required pressure. I usually work alone without an assistant, so I lodge a screwdriver of wrench in the throttle linkage to hold it open, and I use a remote starter switch to operate the starter, that way I can crank the engine while I am looking at the compression gauge. But if you are using an assistant, the assistant can hold down the gas pedal while he cranks the engine, or "hits it" as you say. Be sure the ignition coil is unplugged or disabled when compression testing so that they are not sparking all over the place.
3. A regular plug-in 12 volt car battery charger is fine, usually a 10 or 12 Amp one is enough. If the battery "tires", just give it some time to charge between cylinder tests.
4. It sounds like you have some backfiring going on. This sounds like it could be a timing issue, possible ignition timing problem or a valve train timing problem. The ignition timing should be good in modern cars, as it is controlled by the computer and distributor, unless something has been messed with to affect it. The other reason for backfire is the valve train out of time, caused by a jumped valve train timing chain or gears. If valve train is out of time, the cylinder compression will be low, that is one of the main reasons I wanted you to check the cylinder compression. Your vehicle could likely have a timing chain that has jumped, as your milage is very high on this vehicle, I think you said over 200,000 miles?
The starting fluid is very volitile (flammable), I would spray some in the Throttle Body, then move away from it, then have the assistant crank the engine. You might be better to spray a little gasoline in the TB, then back away, the gasoline does not evaporate as fast as the starting fluid. Just don't use too much, because you don't want to get the spark plugs wet. The advantage with the starting fluid is that it won't wet the spark plugs. Remember, Safety First, move your hand and yourself out of harms way before trying to start the engine.
I'm trying to remember your previous posts, I think you said your engine has a disributor. You may need to double check the timing of the disributor, be sure that the Rotor points to the Number 1 cylinder when the #1 cylinder is at the top of it's compression stroke, AND be sure the spark plug wires are in the correct firing order and that the spark plug wires go to the correct spark plugs. If the distributor timing is off or the spark plug wires are off, it would make your engine act the way it does. AND the distributor timing must also be correct so that the computer knows when to fire the fuel injectors, as the fuel injector timing ALSO has to be correct. I do not have any specific information on your vehicle or any manual for it, I can only give you general information. If you need to get into specific issues such as ignition timing, distribution or fuel injection timing or valve train timing, you will need to consult a repair manual or get an alldatadiy.com subscription for your vehicle, it has all the info you need.
Let us know how it goes.
Good Luck,
Electric Designer In Sunny Florida
How can I verify that the rotor points to the No. 1 cylinder when the #1 cylinder is at the top of its compression stroke?
After I changed the distributor cap and rotor there were two connetions which I had to rearrange.There is a diagram of the wire locations to the distributor in the Haynes manual which I followed to connect them. The van already had the problem with rough idle when this occured. I changed the spark plugs months. The van was running smooth until the rough idle that began this whole saga. It should have been showing some skipping long before now if the wires had been crossed up back then it seems? I'll be looking at the spark plugs and compression this Sunday and will get back with you
Thanks
I wonder what two connections you had to rearrange and why?
I havent had a car with a distributor in a long time, those coil packs are nice! The only thing better is the cars with the COIL ON PLUG (COP) ignition system, like my daughters 2002 Altima has on it, really nice, no high voltage spark plug wires!
Ok, check the rest of it and let us know what you find.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
I am curious as to the "remote starter " you use to help you turn the cranshaft. Is this the type that is part of the remote start kits that can be purchased through audio shops or is this aspecial mechanics hook up to the starter circuit?
What you were asking about is the "Remote Starter Switch", It is simple device that has been around for longer that me (and that's a VERY long time). It is a small push button switch with a cord with 2 wires the comes out of it. Each wire is about 3 feet long and has an aligator clip connector on the end. You use it to operate the starter from under the hood (hence, the "remote" operation, remote being away from the ignition key switch). You connect the alligator clips at the starter motor solenoid, one clip to a "hot" wire, the other clip to the solenoid start terminal. You press the button and the stater runs. You can get these at any auto parts house, they have been a common item as long as I can remember. They should run about $10 or less I would think. I havn't bought one lately, since I bought mine in 1965.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
I. I found a remote starter switch at the auto parts store by Actron for $9.95.
II. In order to familiarize myself with system I studied the Haynes manual concerning all the topics. You are right they did have a explaination of TDC and cylinder compression and as pictures of the cylinder banks and distributor. If the arrangement of the picture front of engine with fanblades, then cylinders and then distributor( a black solid circle denotes no. 1 tower with an arrangement of hollow circles denoting the other 5 spark plug towers and an arrow which must means the counting direction) are to be followed then at some point (when the spark plugs were replaced I)the nos. 2 and 6 wires wre crossed. This was at most 12 months ago. Did the engine finally get tired of being out of time and could this be the cause of the whole scenario?
Maybe I am imagining this but it actually seemed like the engine was trying to turn over. I sprayed starter fluid in the TB but still no start. I pulled some spark plugs and no. 1 was very wet yet the color and condition after cleaning seemed normal, no 2 and 4 had little to no wetness around the electrode base and the waer was identical to no. 1. I did not get to no. 3 or 5 yet I am curious as to their condition. I will continue to pull the rest for this info.
III. Also pertaining to testing the spark by inserting the clean plug into the wire and grounding the shell to the.
1. Would the threads be considered the shell or on what part of the plug would accomplish this?
2. Should the ignition be turned on or the remote start set up to apply some voltage...nothing happened when i placed no. 1 in the wire and touched it to the engine. I attempted this on an area that had no rust as I imagine ground would mean the same as when any wire is being grounded ie. needs good contact. Please advise
Thaks again for your time.
The shell of the spark plug is the whole metal bottom part of the spark plug that includes the threads and the part the socket fits on, it's all one piece of metal, all the same connection. When testing, ground the metal shell of the spark plug to ground, the threads or the socket drive part, and watch the gap for spark.
To test the ignition, you must turn the key to "ON", then you can use the remote starter to turn the engine, be sure to stay clear of moving parts, and the spark plugs should spark as the distributor rotor turns and the coil fires. You should get a good strong blue arc at the spark plug gap. If the plugs are wet, it may be because the engine is flooded, or the spark is too weak to fire the plug. You can dry the spark plug electrodes and insulators by spraying them with some starting fluid or Brake Kleen then blowing them dry. If spark is weak, check the distributor cap and also the distributor rotor to be sure it is not shorting to ground. If you have FUEL and AIR, AND you have strong SPARK at the spark plugs at the RIGHT TIME, the next issue to look at is the cylinder compression.
I particularly like your use of the combination of Roman Numerals and Numbers in your previous post. You're getting a lot better already!
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
I hooked a remote starter up to the "S" and Battery terminals on the solenoid per the Actron,Haynes,ED instructions with the ignition "ON" but alas it does not crank the engine when I press the switch.The coil is grounded via the instructions with a jumper from the coil to the engine. The primary wire is disconnected from the coil. This has GM HEI ignition with separate coil so its pretty straight forward.
3. What am I doing wrong here?
I have been just turning the key to test starting and spark but unless I can get this remote I'll need an assistant.
I should be able to go ahead and assess the position of the rotor relative to tower no. 1 by doing the cylinder TDC check...I'll just use the key method until I get feedback on this remote starter deal. Might not be possible without an assistant.
This procedure seems to bring the battery down...is that normal and why there is a need to have a charger hooked up. I have an Optima yellow top in this van for the stereo and it keeps dying which is unusual for these batteries. It does seems to charge back up however. I made the mistake of dosconnecting the charger so right now I am waiting for it to charge back up.
The spark on all plugs is there. A blue flame is the hottest yet all of them have a little yellow even with the new wires and plugs. It is there however. Would it makea difference at this point to go all new.As I said the condition of the plugs looks OK. These appear to be original AC Delco wires so I think I'll just go ahead and change them out. As I understand it higher priced plugs may only give more reliability but is there a chance I need a better spark.I remember you stated that the plug may be wet because the spark is not enough to burn the fuel.
I realize I need to go ahead and check the compression now for more info. Disregard earlier post.
You don't have to sweat the plugs right now, as long as they are clean and dry and sparking good, they should work. They just need to get the engine running, we'll worry about which ones are the best later. If you are sure that you have checked everything correctly and have not overlooked anything, then it's time to proceed to the compression testing. You can try cleaning and drying the plugs and putting them back in, not too tight, and try to see if the engine will start now. If no start, then pull them all out and check the compression on each cylinder.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
1.Located TDC and lined up #1 tower with rotor on the compression stroke.
2. All wires are in the right locations(and always have been while the van has beeb running)
II. Cylinder compression
Van specs indicate that..." lowest cylinder must be within 70% of highest reading cylinder. (100 psi minimum)" Four cranking turns were done per the instructions.Only one cylinder showed anything close to the minimum on the first stroke but it built up quickly to to the 135-150psi mark.
#1 100-110-120-145/150psi #2 120-140-150-150psi
#3 120-120-145-145psi #4 115-130-135-140psi
#5 130-130-145-145psi #6 110-120-130-145psi
All built up quickly and are within 20% of each other. I am confident that these numbers are Ok. I retested a min of twice on each cylinder removing and reattaching the hoses not just releasing the pressure. Unless you see some problem here it appears that compression is OK.
III. Fuel injectors?
1.From another post it was stated that the injectors might not be firing into the cylinders. From the wet plug at no. 1 it would appear that fuel is getting there and all of the other plugs had some moisture of fuel on them. (I spoke with a mechanic I happen to run into at the auto parts store and he said that maybe the injectors are "over injecting somewhere and flooding). At this point should I put the plugs back in and see if it turns over at all and if not try the starter fluid again.
2. This van has the CMFI system and apparently it is not servicable and must be replaced if faulty and the Haynes does not give any method of checking anything but what I already have checked(i.e. fuel pressure)UNless I missed something and the noid test are indicated could you rehash the noid procedure if its indicated. I could not understand if the light should come on or come on and flash. I would appreciate that. It appears that the only thing to do is to get at the fuel injection unit by removing the intake manifold and look at it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. In the meantime I am hooking everything back up to see what happens?
#1 = 150
#2 = 150
#3 = 145
#4 = 140
#5 = 145
#6 = 145
They are within 7% of each other, though the numbers seem a little low to me, the amount of compression will vary from engine to engine according to the compression ratio. I was hoping to see at least 160, however there is certainly enough compression for it to start. When I do the compression tests, I spin the engine untll the compression guage reaches the maximum amount it will climb to, usually spin for about 2 or 3 seconds, maybe about 6 compressions. Maybe that is why I am used to seeing higher numbers, around 180 to 200. It is good that the numbers are so close, especially with such high milage.
With compression that good, I would think the valve train timing should be good, but I would not rule it totally out yet.
Back to the fuel, It would not run with starting fluid or gasoline sprayed in the intake while cranking, right? And the spark plugs were not wet except for one, right? SO you cleaned and dried the spark plugs, put them back in, and it still would not start, right? It should have started when you sprayed fuel in the intake while cranking. About the only things left is that the fuel injectors are out of time somehow, or the spark is too weak. You should pull off a spark plug wire, put a short piece of wire or metal in the end of the boot to create a short exposed electrode, hold the spark plug wire carefully with a well insulated screwdriver, and hold it near a gorunded surface while cranking the engine, and observe the spark. Move the wire away from the grounded object and see how long of an arc you can draw. A strong spark will jump over 1/2 inch, up to 3/4 of an inch. Color should be bright blue with maybe some orange around it, but NOT pale looking, or short. If spark is not strong, that may be the problem. If spark is good, check the manual to see how the fuel injection system is timed. If fuel timing is ok, then you can check the injectors with the noid light, but I am not sure how that works on your setup, because they are embedded in the manifold. I think there may be a cover that comes off to get to them. The injectors that I worked on were injectors that were visible and had a two wire plug plugged into the side of them. I would simply unplug the electrical connector and plug the noid light into it, but your setup might be a lot different than that.
Look into that and see what you find. I hope you find the problem soon.
Good Luck,
E.D. ISF
Yeah this "spider" fuel injection setup is a little strange. It will require that I pull the intake off and see how the input feed is to it...if there is (and from the pictures in Haynes there is an electrical connector leading to it but only a two wire). This feeds all six cylinders so maybe a noid light can be set up on just that one.
The spark intensity/length test seems reasonable. Is aspark tester capable of giving similar information? I like your DIY techniques however.
What information should tell me about "fuel timing"?I searched the manual specs on the fuel system and did not see anything called that.
If a resistance value should read 10,000 and it reads OFL(infinity) is that bad or good. This means no ground right between the test points. My explorer went to the dealer for a fuel injector service and ever since has been idling high like crazy...sometimes it surges to 2200rpm and frquently is at 1100rpm. Tested the TPS and IAC and checked all hoses.
Only indication questionable was that the voltage climb with the accelerator pedal was 3.9V vs. manually opening the throttle it was 4.67V. Shouldn't both reading be very close?
Not real happy with that right now. Next time I'll clean them myself.