High End Luxury Cars

i_drive · August 2003

you know-

i just can't help but feel overwhelmed by the comfort, and power behind the wheel of a LS430. plus, with the combined features of the ultraluxury package, which brings the total MSRP under $68,000- it's a much better overall value than a stripped MB S430 or BMW 745i. to be honest with you; the lexus is seriously the only comfortable car i feel driving. let me explain:

the Mercedes-Benz S-Class:
a beautiful automobile, in which i like TO BE SEEN driving, NOT DRIVING. acceleration is quite bad, and transmission jerky. power is not smooth at all. the interior (of the 2000-2002 models atleast) is filled with cheap-plastic materials. reliability is another issue; i have calculated the costs of repair for my S430 and it has totaled to approx $21,038.67 (thank goodness most of it was under warrantee). i mean, an S-Class is an S-Class. it's absolutely timeless, and is basically the best sedan you can get. but i just don't feel relaxed/comfortable behind it. sometimes, i think, well, i should have waited and have purchased a S500, or even S55 AMG. but i have driven the S500, and to be honest with you, i find the LS430 to drive just a well as a S500. i would have gotten the S55 AMG, if not for my wife, who has threatened to divorce me (she was kidding ;-) though) if i purchased one more "sporty-car". so i opted for a fully-loaded S430 instead. big mistake.

The BMW 745i/Li:
to be jonest with you, i wouldn't mind at all if i had gotten the 7-series instead. but when i test drive it, i always notice that the steering is way too loose; if i turn it a little, the car turns too much. i therefore do not feel in control of the vehicle. also, with the iDrive; it's a cute concept, and i like it, but after having used the MMI on the A8L, i think it is way too complicated. i finally "mastered" it after spending the ENTIRE day at my childhood friend's house (he has a drop-dead gorgeous new 760Li). but i must admit; the handling and performance truly exceed that of both the Audi and Lexus LS430. i thought i was in my SL55 (though not as fast).

The new 2004 A8L:
it's overall, the best car (out of the Audi, BMW, and MB) that fits me well. inside, the quality if PERFECT. i mean everywhere; take a look at the hydraullic hinge supporting the front hood. or the materials used inside; the wood, materials... although most people call it "overly-conservative" or "boring design", but to be honest with you guys; it's really quite beautiful; the lines are smooth, and there are no design areas that are controversial. on the contrary, i find that the A8L has the classic lines of a traditional luxury-sedan, with a splash of modernization. perfect balance. this was one of the major reasons why i did not decide to purchase another LS from lexus; so boxy and unimginative. but, the only reason why i am rather "iffy" on buying an Audi, is that i think that the name until recently was never as "uber-sounding" as the name 'Mercedes-Benz' 'BMW' or 'Jaguar'. Then, it made me feel, "hey! if you pay ,less than $5,000 more, you can drive a Mercedes!" or "At the same time, I can drive a BMW flagship model. Why not?"

But, i guess seeing is truly beleiving. when i first saw the review @ edmunds.com, i though the A8L was as borring as ever, but after seeing it in person, I was truly impressed with Audi. (my daughter has a Audi TT right now and i am quite pleased in terms of fit-n-finish, performance, safety, and reliability.)

but then, after thinking it over, I can't help but say to myself: "Come on... i'm driving a Mercedes-Benz S-Class, essentially the most luxurious and sought-after luxury sedan on the road. A Mercedes will always be a Mercedes."

And you know what? Even after flipping through pages and pages of receipts from my dealership, showing problems that were fixed, issues that at first couldn't be resolved, that needed 1-3 months to be fixed, i then stare at the front of my car, then at the silver, star-

i chuckle to myself, smile, and then can't help but to take the S-Class out for a spin around town.

boo20 · August 2003

If you're concerned about the reliability of MB you should not even consider an Audi. I would prefer a Lexus any day of the week even with its Amana refrigerator styling. Its not as if the styling of the big Audi is all that compelling anyway to justify the maintenance nightmares I have been reading about on this car.

The big BMW may be the 'ultimate driving machine' but its got a rear end that looks like an ethnic joke. Haven't sat in a 7 series lately but they have always made me feel clautrophobic and don't 'age' nearly as well as MBs do. Compare a 10 year old MB with a 10 year old BMW and you'll see what I mean. MB has always had the knack (as far as I'm concerned) of designing cars with lasting appeal. Even when I don't like the original design it usually 'grows' on me. ALthough the ML and SLK have been an exception to that rule.

I'll be trading in my E this fall for an S 500 4 matic. Audi, BMW and Lexus are not even on the horizon in my opinion.

i_drive · August 2003

this morning i took my son to his friend's house and while driving back, i got hit in the rear of the SL55 (only 3 weeks old). we pulled over immediately and inspected the damage:

1) Rear bumper dented in/out 2-3 centimeters on right/left side.
2) Paint damage/chip on trunk lid/lip
3) Trunk lid lip dented in approx. 1-1.5 centimeters
4) Undercarriage lopsided (right side collapsed, while left side still attached)
5) Cracked rear right taillight.
6) Don't think that power roof will close as the roof was open while driving, and the rear lid won't open.
7) slight ripple at the back of the trunk, and exhaust pipe damaged.

You will not believe what I was hit by:
a HUGE black Hummer H2. and what a coincidence: i happen to know his guy as he is one of the parents at my child's school.

overall, i was extremely surprised how much damage there as on the SL.

well he was extrememly apologetic about it. although the rear of my car was quite sad looking, the front of the Hummer was basically not-affected at all (you can see small scratches and paint chips here and there).

i was able to drive it to a nearby dealership and they have told me that i will have to wait approx. 1 month for new parts to come in, as well as an insurance agent to inspect the damage.

at first they offered me a C240 kompressor, but at the end, i got an ML320 loaner. a far cry from an SL, but i'm grateful that i did not sustain any injuries as we were going through stop-and-go traffic on a local street, and he accelerated and hit me at around 15-20 MPH.

my wife already told me, "hahaha. told you not to get it. serve you right."

boo20 · August 2003

MBs seem to sustain substantial damage on crash tests in minor 5 mph collisions. The engineers say that it is designed that way to absorb rather than transmit the shock to the cabin. I don't know. Good luck with your car.

carnaught · August 2003

My deepest sympathies. Glad you're all right. Shame on your wife for the comment. That's like hitting you when your down.

300eguy05 · August 2003

I am sorry to hear about your accident. You are very fortunate to own such a vast array of automobiles. If you had major problems with your s430, stay away from the Audi. It is a shame the car is junk, because it is so beautiful in and out imo. When are you planning to replace your S?

And lastly, I wouldn't call the S430 slow, by any means. But if you just got out of your SL, I would imagine anything would feel slow though.

i_drive · August 2003

i know. of all people, i happened to marry a woman who has absolutely no interest whatsoever in cars. (she always gets the new GX confused with the ML500, or the new Accord coupe with my SL. i am not joking at all). i had to fool (or trick) her into getting the Lexus on our anniversary by going to the dealership, asking to drive a demo GX, and at the end, i arranged the manager to offer my wife to bring it home for the weekend. when she bluntly said "no", he said "too bad, here's the keys. it's yours." (she was so attached to her Mercedes ML that seconds later, she was crying at the Lexus dealership, and everyone was staring at us)

is Audi really that bad? i guess seeing can be deceiving. i was truly impressed by the overall fit-in-finish of the A8L, TT, allroad...i knew that the older models of audi suffered significant reliability issues, but i thought that audi changed. my daughter's audi TT is working beautifully for her. i guess not.

300Eguy05:
i am planning on trading in the S-Class anytime now if i can get a good deal on a new good car. i used to own a '89 300E 2.6 Black Pearl metallic that was truly dear to me (actually my wife). that was my favorite MB that i ever purchased. it never failed her for the 10 year that we owned it, and boy, you should have seen her the day we traded it in for the ML320 (i thought our 14-year old family dog died).
it had 100,000 miles on it when the mileage ticker stopped working, so i estimate that it had about 115,000 miles when we sold it.
i am trying to find more pictures of the official refresh for the 2004 7-series. so far, based on what i have seen, i am not impressed. i actually think that the front headlamps do not look as dramatic as before; i liked the "eagle-like" look of the original headlamps more. the rear looks just the same. i don't know if the sources i went to were lousy, though.

my SL is in the body shop right now. i was informed that it would take a little over a month for new parts to come in. i told them to go a good job this time, as last time when my S430 was hit in the rear again, it took 2 months, and the entire lining of the trunk was loose, and a loud metal-against-metal sound could be heard in the rear seats. they have been unable to find the "noise" at the back.

I am also considering replacing the radio antannae. i don't know about other fellow 2000-2003 S-Class owners, but the FM, particularily AM reception stinks. all i really hear is static. the dealership (i have complained constantly to MB USA, and the dealership itself) apparently does not know what is wrong. they said the sameting when my gas gauge fluctuated between FULL and 1/4 within 2 minutes. they took out the entire dashboard, rear gas tank sensor, and all i know is that it still moves up and down (though not as badly), and as a result, there are more rattling noises BOTH near the instrument cluster and behind the rear headrests.

300eguy05 · September 2003

Ah, yes the good old 300e. I have 150 thousandish miles on mine. Such a wonderful car to drive. I can't imagine trading it in for an M though! What a difference in those two cars.

I am sure you could get a good deal on a 2003 S. But, you might want to wait for the 2004. It gets the 7 speed tranny. But if that isn't important to you, just go for the 2003. Are you considering the 430 or the 500?

Audi and VW just aren't reliable. Audi has made the A8 attractive to more customers. But, they will never keep them if they can't grasp some quality control. It is a shame, really, because they make beautiful cars. Their interiors are top notch. And I wish that were reason enough to buy a car.

And, BMW. The 2004 7, should be changed in some areas. But I am not expecting anything durastic. Hopefully they will make the rear more attractive. Chris Bangle is walking on very thin ice right now. The 5 will be the true test of his fate with BMW.

scottphillip · September 2003

My dealership has a 2003 Alpina Z8 available. Has anyone had any experience with a Z8? The car is a beauty, but I am hesitant as I know that they were never very popular.

carnaught · September 2003

Nice car! Mucho dinero!

fenn · September 2003

I have a good friend with a Z8. I love his car, and have asked to have the first tight of refusal whenever he decides to sell it. They are very nice cars, but some folks do not know that they are are more of a grand touring roadster, than a true high performance sports car.

The Alpina (with automatic tranny only)is the last incarnation of the low production Z8, so it seems that they will always retain some collectability and value.

merc1 · September 2003

I dig the Crossfire, it provides some eye-candy for the road, something different to look at. I see boo20 corrected you about the opinion on the previous S-Class and the LS430. Basically you keep leaving out one very important word when that argument is raised..."poor". The LS430 is a poor copy or imitation of the previous S-Class. Speaking of which, it isn't a mere coincidence that 04' LS430 has nearly the same tailamps as the 03' S-Class, wheels similiar to any number of Mercedes models and the front end has been reshaped to look like the current S, you know the car they couldn't copy back in 01' due to having set the design in stone to copy the previous S. I find this relentless copying or mimicing (insert the synonym of choice here) to be the most ridiculous spectical on the automotive landscape. BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, and MB are able to do so much without looking like their nearest competitor.

About the Toyota Camry Solara. I find it most interesting that all the Lexus fans knocked Mercedes for making the CLK, SL and C-Coupe similiar looking from the front, yet Toyota goes and makes a Camry of all things look just like a 60K Lexus, which is supposed to be different "brand" unlike the C, CLK and SL which *should* look alike because their all "Mercedes-Benzes".

About Lexus detracters saying that Lexus cars have no character or emotion, it's pretty much true anytime you read any review of their cars, that is a "universal" opinion. See the SC430 comparo in the Oct issue of C&D. True, these are about the only major criticisms the Euro crowd can level at Lexus' cars...boring styling and uninvolving driving experience. The only reason Lexus fans find issue with Mercedes', or any other Euro brand's styling "shouting" anything is because Lexus' doesn't. What would be so terrible if Lexus made the LS430's styling match its other attributes? As far as Mercedes' image and what not, that surely isn't their fault if Lexus can't attain the same rub with people.

M

mariner7 · September 2003

"Another Lexus demonstration of auto perfection based on a sterile driving experience!"

Ouch! This from the most conservative of all mainstream auto magazines!

It was comparing SC with SL500, 911, XLR & XK8. It says SC is the anti-Porsche: one never lets you forget you're in a car, one makes you forget you're in a car!

ljflx · September 2003

You and I will simply have to disagree on a number of things. The 2004 LS430 has - in my opinion - only modest facelift changes over the 2003. The front headlights look - to me - very much like the old LS400 headlights and not at all like the new S. The taillight change is simply a stripe in the middle with no design change at all from the previous edition. Lastly I have always thought the LS was a classy elegant car from day one. I also think that now that the LS430 went back to a bit more LS400 front end look that it is even better looking than the 2001-2003 years. We just see different things. I don't see any copying whatsoever to the new S.

I think MB has made the Crossfire too much like a clk. It looks like an MB rather than a Chrysler. It was inevitable that the brands would mix at some point. The problem is that if they go too far in the mixing they may lose the more expensive MB buyers or entry buyers. If they do not go far enough Chrysler stays in a downward spiral. It's a daunting challenge and it won't be easy. I see that the Pacifica is already a rebate car.

Toyota should have made the Solara its own car. A stupid mistake in my opinion. On the other hand they may be planning changes for the SC so who knows. I can't argue with their great success.

As for passion it seems hard for people that read mags to understand that Lexus drivers have plenty of passion for driving hard. The cars they make are bred to be what they are though - silky smooth effortless cars to meet the driving needs of the road - not the racetrack. The guys who rate cars in magazines feel the same way about cars today as I did in my teens and early 20's. They have never changed so they simply don't see the desires people have moved on to. Once you get married and have an infant in that back seat you quickly change your perspectives about what is important in a car. We still like good handling as we get older (Lexus gives you plenty of it) and go through changes in our lives but a great ride, quiet interior and that silky smooth engine become equally if not more important. Lexus hits that spot better than any auto manufacturer which is exactly what they set out to do.

mariner7 · September 2003

SC430 supposedly has backseats. Would anyone subject even a baby to it? I hope not, those backseats have zero legroom. SC is supposed to be a sporty coupe, and it wants the driver to feel as in a living room?

I heard many times Camry is a car for people who don't want to drive. Evidently Lexus is the Camry of luxury cars!

pat · September 2003

Careful, please.

We are here to *enjoy* the luxury marques, not to bash them. Talk about what you like and let others do the same. Save the arguments for one of our specific comparisons.

Thanks.

pat · September 2003

In the hopes of keeping this discussion at the level in which it was intended, I'm moving it off of the Comparisons board and back to the main Sedans board.

Hope everyone arrives safely!

ljflx · September 2003

Let's get real here - please. The SC has back seats so people get into a certain insurance bracket. It was never intended for anyone to live back there. Besides the insurance benefit it gives its buyers, it makes a nice place to throw a bag of groceries or some other item. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would put an infant in the backseat of an SC430 - do you?

maxhonda99 · September 2003

ljflx,

To back up your argument, I have never seen anyone in the back seats of a SC430. And I have seen many SC430's this past summer and last summer in NJ with the top down. I don't remember one of them having anyone in the backseat.

ljflx · September 2003

Thanks. There is a big difference between being a fan and believing what one wants to vs. committing the capital to buy expensive cars. It's rather significant that many bashers did not opt to buy the more affordable A-4, C-class or 3 series cars.

Did you make your decision yet on your Q replacement or are you waiting for the 2004's to arrive?

lenscap · September 2003

I, too, find it odd that Toyota would style the Solara to resemble the SC 430. That being said, don't forget Lexus will soon have its own styling direction that will be different from Toyota. This will set the groundwork for the launch of Lexus in Japan in the next year or two.

The first model with the exclusive new Lexus "look" will be the new GS going on sale in about 6-7 months. Hopefully it will be shown at the Tokyo Motor Show at the end of October.

syswei · September 2003

No matter what the new GS looks like, you can be sure that some rabid MB fans will claim that it copies MB.

fenn · September 2003

Thanks for asking.....I traded my 2002 Q45 for a new 2004 Jaguar XJR about two weeks ago. I was impulsive and went for the new XJR's 390 hp. power, along with its superb handling.

After much thought, I decided against getting another Q45, which will be much the same in 2004 as my 2002 version, so I looked around. I narrowed my choice to the '04 Audi A8L and the '04 Jaguar XJ series, but I briefly considered the BMW 745 too...

At first I was going to get an XJ8, since the new '04 XJ8's are really nice cars, especially at the $59,500 base price. I was surprised to find that the new XJ8 is quick, and handles extremely well. However, I ultimately gave in to the allure of the supercharged XJR, which can rocket from 0-60 in 5 seconds. Better yet,I am getting about 17.5 avg. MPG out of the supercharged 390 hp. V-8 engine because of the new Jag's light aluminum body and frame.

I should mention that I think that the Audi A8L is a beautifully executed vehicle. The build quality, and interior is the best I have seen...It is a great grand touring sedan, but it feels like a big luxury cruiser compared to the sporty quickness and acceleration of the XJR sedan.

mariner7 · September 2003

Sorry if I offended anyone, especially a brand new car owner.

On the other hand, bashing can liven up a board. This is the first I'm back on Edmunds, since they shut down a board where Nissan & Honda owners were really trying to run each other over.

Don, congrats on your XJR. I've seen quite a few new XJ8, none of the new A8. Audi probably will still have problems selling its excellent sedan.

What do you think of new 6 series? I think it's the Z4 frontend grafted to 7 series backend. Hideous! And believe or not, I'm partial to BMW.

ljflx · September 2003

Best of luck with it. You got a great deal. How do you rate it vs your Q experience. Also what kept you away from the 745. I drove the A-8 and found the ride too harsh. One of these days I'm going to get around to driving the 745 though. A friend of mine who was in one said it had an excellent ride.

merc1 · September 2003

Come on now the Crossfire looks like a CLK, but the new 04's LS430 doesn't take any styling cues from the current S-Class in it's facelift? Its a little bit hard to believe you really think something like that. One view is obvious and the other isn't even close. The LS430's tailights for example, why a clear lense treatment like the S-Class? It's ridiculous and was done for no other reason than to look like the Mercedes.

Chrysler and Mercedes "mixing" isn't going to cause MB to loose any buyers. In case you haven't noticed, Chrysler is using the old platforms from Mercedes, and the Pacifica isn't built on a Mercedes chassis. Chrysler is having the same problems they've always had, slow sales due to a bad reputation for quality in the recent past, and in the case of the Pacifica, it's pretty expensive for a Mopar product. So far they haven't done anything that a Mercedes buyer will care about. But you're right if they did the unthinkable and shared C, E and S-Class hardware with a Chrysler there will definitely be a problem.

As for the "passion" viewpoint...we should probably agree to disagree there too because you're still talking about a silky smooth ride as being something passionate. What you're talking about is your priorities (can't argue with those) when buying a car, not passion. If the LS truly had any of this ("passion") you'd be talking about how it drives and feels compared to how it rides. I guess I can understand how you'd be passionate about a car, especially an expensive one like the LS430, but I can't see why. Why is it that a magazine only cares about a racetrack one minute (i.e. when they put a Lexus down), but in other instances when they don't like an A8 (C&D) they're oh so right about everything.

Now I see you and DonnFenn feel that Maxhonda nor I aren't allowed to discuss this because we don't own own a Benz or Lexus. When all else fails thats whats ususally said. I don't need to own a Lexus to know what kind of cars they are, or whether or not they appeal to me or any other person that calls themselves an enthusiast. I really don't need to own one to have an opinion on their styling either.

M

ljflx · September 2003

The Crossfire has an MB look. You don't think so? Even the NY Times auto section yesterday showed a front page picture of one with the headline "Can you find the Mercedes in this picture". Ordinary car buyers usually aren't sophisticated about platforms and the like. They look at something and draw conclusions from it. In the case of the Crossfire I'm sure they'll see an MB front-end in it - just like the Times did.

I never knocked the A-8. I drove it and experienced the harsh ride the reviewers talked about in the magazine. Thus all I said was I could confirm their experience. Inside that car is wonderful and outside I like its looks and it has the best paint I've ever seen on a car.

Now on the LS430 they wrap around the clear light panel in the tail light amd that makes it a copy of the new S. You are kidding I hope but even for you that is a very far stretch.

DonFenn made a simple observation that you are reading too much into. But in a simple translation it means the bashers should put their money where their mouths are.

benzowner · September 2003

The New Pacifica is built on a Mercedes Chassi.

300eguy05 · September 2003

I'm just chirpin' in here. I don't think the 04 LS430 looks like the S Class in any way. The front reminds me of the RX and the GX. Styling is very subjective so I guess everyone is open to his or her own interpretation.

I can see a bit of Mercedes in the crossfire. The front at least. The rest of the car though, Imo, has no resemblance to any Mercedes.

Isn't the Pacifica built on the next Gen. M Class platform?

michael_mattox · September 2003

If the mercedes and the LEXUS LS 430 look so much alike I would think you would love the car..The interor is much better excuted, the nav. and music systems are better and the LS is FAR more dependable....Hmmmmmm

P.S. You never did answer my question...Have you ever driven an LS 430.

merc1 · September 2003

Now here where you and I differ the most.....you'll take what the NY Times says about a car, styling no less, as something gospel, yet people who test cars for a living don't know what they're talking about. No I don't think the squat, short, bubble back Crossfire looks like a CLK.
Lots of cars have big grillework today, Chrysler, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Jaguar etc. If a person can't tell a Crossfire from a Benz they're automotively challenged to say the least. The NY Times is NOT an automotive publication. You have the classic way of calling them "autorags" when they say unfavorable things about Lexus, only to say that they are right on the money when it comes to other cars and their faults. Thats a double standard.

"Now on the LS430 they wrap around the clear light panel in the tail light amd that makes it a copy of the new S. You are kidding I hope but even for you that is a very far stretch."

Well let me as you this then...why do it if it looks like your main competitor? Its silly. The reason I came down so hard on the car is because someone across the street from me has a 04's LS430 with manufacturer plates on it, so I was able to get a good look at the car. If you honestly don't think the 04' model's changes aren't at least influenced by the S-Class, then we're much further apart in opinion than I ever thought possible in the what 4+ years I've known you. You nor any other Lexus owner, fan, supporter etc can come up with an functional reason why the LS430 has to take it's styling cues from the past and current S-Class cars. It's done to confuse the issue between the two cars. Again, I don't have to own any of the cars being discussed here to see them and comment on their styling, I didn't say anything about their technical status or other characteristics that would require me to actually own the car.

Benzowner,

The Pacifica is NOT built on a Mercedes platform, it's built on a version of their minivan platform, that platform being modified to the point of almost being all new. The Pacifica has nothing to do with any Mercedes.

M

ljflx · September 2003

I don't work for Toyota or Lexus so I don't need to defend them. Plus I think defending a modification to a tail light that is so incredibly minor would be crazy. But everything Toyota touches seems to turn to gold. They may not be the biggest auto manufacturer out there right now but they are the most profitable and the most powerful so they certainly know what they are doing. I'm glad I'm not competing with them.

Now the Times simply said - find the MB in the picture. I don't even remember if they said the Crossfire (to which they gave a positive review) looked like a CLK. But they put the accent on the front in the picture and all that was missing in my opinion was the 3 pointed star. I don't think the car looks like an MB from the side or rear and personally I think it looks awful from those views. I hardly take the Times word as gospel. They are the people that preferred a Maxima (the old one) over an LS430.

I haven't seen the 2004 LS430 yet. I was told they arrive on September 26 so needless to say I'm surprised you've already seen one. But I did get an advanced brochure in the mail and it looked like a modified 2003 to me. I didn't see any current S-class influence at all and in fact had to ask on the LS board what the change was to the tail light - to which lenscap, I believe - gave me the answer. So we do indeed see different things. Heck even a Benz owner said earlier he didn't see any similarities. I see a 2004 that looks like an awesome car and not one that took any cues from the current S-class.

I hope that car across the street is not going to haunt you.

merc1 · September 2003

Oh I agree, Toyota is the most feared automaker around today, with their quality and production systems...they're pretty much unstopable. Everything they do doesn't turn to gold however, the current IS300, GS430 and others haven't exactly been a raging success. There are some on other boards who love to point out who dependent Lexus is on SUVs for sales, I don't really subscribe to that being a weakness because SUVs are hot, but it is true. Some companies are in better shape than others when it comes to competing against Toyota. What Toyota's Lexus will probably never do is create a following comprised of people who care about the other aspects of owning a car, besides reliablity and stereo systems. Believe it or not those things aren't the end all of car ownership, as European car popularity soars in this country. On paper a Lexus would be perfect if they added some excitement to the driving experience and styling. They more or less have stated that they intend to do just that. There is another NY Times article being discussed on the News and Views board that says that Lexus' VP said that BMW is now their target. You can imagine what the enthusiast crowd thinks of that one.

If you truly don't see where the LS430 has been influenced by the previous S-Class and the current one with it's 04's update then thats a wrap. I still maintain that there is no reason why a Lexus' tailights have to look like a Mercedes' when Audis, BMWs, Jaguars, Infinitis or Cadillacs don't. The whole theme of the car is that of a Mercedes, especially in the details like wheels, lights etc, I guess I don't see how anyone can not see this. I want to you look at the car and person and tell me that you don't see these things.

The car across the way is gone...

M

ljflx · September 2003

Last post of the day for me. I don't dispute for a second that it took cues from the previous gen S-class just the current one. But I also think that other than no other Lexus copies MB. I know you feel otherwise so we'll just disagree on that.

merc1 · September 2003

Actually the LS is the only model I see as being as close to a copy as possible, the others not.

M

sv7887 · September 2003

Merc,
I can agree with you about the LS looking similiar to the last generation S class. As much as this trend annoys me, I still have to agree with the others in saying that the current S class and the new 430 don't have similiar styling cues.

While we're on this topic...Don't you all
think the exterior cues are converging across automakers? Footie posted a picture of a Ford Taurus and E class some weeks back, and there was some resemblance. With the exception of Jaguar, I don't really see a nice looking design out there.

MB used to make some awesome timeless designs with their SL and old S classes of the late 80's. Lexus' first designs (LS, ES, SC) were great, but they've resorted to "borrowing" styling cues from MB as of late. (With the exception of the RX). BMW's 7 Series isn't bad, but the back of it just looks too "busy" for me.. What do you all think?

Cheers,
SV

ljflx · September 2003

Glad I'm not the only one that sees similarities in MB and the Taurus design. I see it in both the S and now in the new E, which in reality is a 12inch shorter S-class.

fenn · September 2003

So many car styles are derivative or similar. Check out the rear of the latest Honda Accord Coupe....The tail lamps and lens design look like a Mercedes. I am not suggesting that Honda was out to do this, but since the wedge tail light design is a common theme, there are bound to be similarities in the way that many tail lights appear.

I do not see a physical resemblance between the Crossfire and the MB either. The silhouette, the front end, and the rear fascia are not the same. I doubt that anybody at Daimler Benz does either, as that was not their intention.

While the big Lexus may have originally been somewhat derivative of the MB, I do not think that folks at Lexus are currently trying to clone MB's in their styling studio. I also think that Lexus build quality on the LS 430 is better than the build quality of the recent S class generation.

BTW, I think one of the worst copy cat designs was the older Mitsubishi Eclipses, which look sort of like a Ford Probe or a mini-Firebird.

sv7887 · September 2003

Don,

I've always felt the 1990-1994 LS was fairly original and a timeless design. You wouldn't look at it and think it was a MB. (That's why I still keep my '92), but over the years, they've definitely resorted towards taking cues from the S-Class. From the gated shifter to the profile of the Old S-class, Lexus hasn't been very original with LS430. Here's a quote from a Car and Driver Issue when the LS430 came out,

"It seems Lexus has fired the "Seiko" designers who designed the original LS, ES, and SC and brought in the Rolex knockoff artists"

Before the Lexus owners on this board cry foul, I own 2 LS cars, a '92 and a '02 LS430. Even I have to admit, there is some truth to this quote. However, like most Lexus owners I feel I'm getting a higher quality car and a better ownership experience at a lower cost.

Most people my age don't care about 0-60 times, Indycar like handling and other sports car cues. The LS430 caters to the 45-50+ age group very well. They gave us a very comfortable car, with the latest in high tech wizardy and bulletproof reliability/service. And yes, if we want to pretend we're 20 again, we can stomp on the V-8 and get a very satisfying response..

All you Lexus owners, is the above a fair characterization of what we want?

Your thoughts would be appreciated,
SV

fenn · September 2003

sv7887 said "Most people my age don't care about 0-60 times, Indycar like handling and other sports car cues. The LS430 caters to the 45-50+ age group very well. They gave us a very comfortable car, with the latest in high tech wizardy and bulletproof reliability/service. And yes, if we want to pretend we're 20 again, we can stomp on the V-8 and get a very satisfying response.."

OK, I am in that age range too, and I like my sedan, but I also like to drive it hard at those times when I have the open highway or a mountain road without traffic. Any of these cars, which offer a 0-60 time in under 6.5 seconds should feel quick and responsive when you stomp on it.

I felt that my '02 Q45 was quick enough to keep me ahead of the pack, but the XJR that I am now driving is a real thrill. There is something about driving a sedan that is faster than most sports cars, which makes me feel younger than I really am...LOL.

benzowner · September 2003

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagon/112_0304_frst_pac/index- - 1.html

read this on the Pacifica. The Suspension is a mercedes E-Class Suspension.

merc1 · September 2003

You Lex guys can't see the details refinements made to the 04' LS430's tailights and headlamps/fenders that bring it closer to the current S-Class, but you can think a S-Class or E-Class looks like a Ford. Ok. Right. You all haven't even seen the car in person yet right?

This theory about cars all starting to look alike for whatever reason is an excuse when it comes to the luxury class. A Jaguar doesn't look like an Audi, nor does a BMW look like a Mercedes, basically they all have their own look, even Cadillac and Infiniti have discovered their own identity as of late, basically everyone except you know who.

benzowner,

The link you posted doesn't work. However all new generation Chrysler products are going to share some Mercedes-Benz hardware, including the Pacifica. But there is a big difference in using a whole Benz platform, of which Pacifica does not. The Crossfire is the only one to do this, so far.

M

syswei · September 2003

I read the opinion somewhere, maybe on these boards or maybe in a autorag, that the SL takes some styling cues from Ferrari.

What do people think?

ljflx · September 2003

Syswei - I think MB fans (not really the owners) want to think MB is nothing but original in everything they do. Now Merc1 thinks it is LEX people that want to draw comparisons to the Taurus and MB. But it is starting to be said in a number of places including the autorags that always seem to prefer BMW first and MB second.

Merc1 - two things:

One - there is a big difference between saying a car looks the same/copies another car vs saying it lifts a few styling cues from another car. I have no doubt that MB lifted some styling cues off the Taurus but that doesn't mean the two cars look alike as a whole. Plus - once they do it once they end up doing it three times because the C and E are replicas of the S. The Taurus with its revolutionary style 10 years or so ago bothered the Europeans because they thought they should have designed something like that first. You talk about the MB taillights as if they are sacred yet they have the same shape as those of a Taurus and that is just one of the similarities I see. Today the car that is bothering the Europeans - a lot from what I've been told - is the Cadillac Sixteen - another car they wished they had designed first. Let's see if they go in that direction in the next several years.

Two - It is inevitable that platform and part sharing between MB and Chrysler would develop and will now go deeper and deeper. It is the only way to justify the acquisition financially. They are in business to make money rather than please enthusiastic fans. They have two choices - cut costs via platform sharing which also lengthens the depreciable life of capitalized expenditures (sorry for the accounting jargon) or divest of Chrysler. Since they are already proceeding quickly (now) down the sharing path - after tons of infighting in the executive hierarchy about it - it's obvious there are no divestiture plans. That's business.

Finally I think the most original company out there is BMW. But the BMW and Jag grills always looked quite similar to me. I'm not really sure who got there first. As well the new 6 series looks like a Pontiac to me. Maybe it is impossible to design unique cars these days with all the brands and models that exist. Even the Maybach has a very Lincoln-like grill.

sv7887 · September 2003

Don,
You've illustrated my point. I don't think anyone who's driven a V-8 powered Lexus would call it sluggish in any means. Sure, the handling isn't indycar like, but who cares? It's not like we drive on the Autobahn everyday.

Of course this is an objective thing, and when you drive a Supercharged Jaguar, I can see why you'd want to step on it..One more question, how's the XJ treating you? Any of those new car gremlins Jaguar used to be known for? I'm thinking about getting a plain XJ within 2 yrs and that's the only thing that is holding me back.

Merc,
Don't you think you're streching abit in saying the LS430 looks like a new S class? Your fanaticism is quite entertaining. Yes, I've seen the E class in person. and it does bear some resemblance to a Taurus. (I'm not saying the cars look EXACTLY the same here) If you were to tell me that the LS430 is borrowing it's cues from the OLD S Class I'll buy it.

Changing the marker lights to clear and extending the headlights makes the car look a little more aggressive. It's just a slight touchup. The RX and IS have clear lights too. Are they copying Honda? No...Don't tell me that MB is the first and only Automaker to put clear strips on their tailights..As for Lexus styling..

Okay, the LS takes cues from an OLD S class but what about the rest? The RX, ES, GX, GS, LX and SC are their own designs. While people say they're bland, they are still Lexus designs. The ES, GX, and RX don't borrow from anyone and they are the newest ones. I have no idea what the 2006 LS will look like, so the jury is out there.

Happy Motoring,
SV

fenn · September 2003

These drawn out, highly subjective, debates over styling and it's lineage are beginning to seem more than a bit silly to me. I do not think that 2004 freshening of the LS430 was a deliberate Mecedes copying effort. To put such a focus on the Lexus' revised tail light lens seems a bit absurd. I walk away from debates over politics and religion at cocktail parties, and I am going to walk away from any debate over styling with a certain Mercedes fanatic.

As I mentioned earlier, take a look at the tail light lens of the newest Accord coupe if you want to see a Mercedes look-a-like. Was Honda trying to make the Accord coupe look like a Mercedes Benz....I do not think so.

sv7887:

I actually surprised myself when I began to consider the new Jaguar. Jaguars were never my interest, and the old XJ8 was too cramped for my 6'3" frame. I initially only went to look at the '04 version as a curiosity seeker. Upon my first test drive, I was really impressed with base XJ8's feel and responsiveness at basic city driving speeds. To me, the base XJ8 felt more fun to drive than the base Mercedes S430, the BMW 745 and my former '02 Q45 in the normal 0 to 45 mile per hour city driving. The drivetrain and it's gearing offered responsiveness that felt great for such a big car. It felt quicker and smaller than it is.

Then I got seduced into going for the XJR after taking it on a test drive. The wonder of this car is that the drivetrain and six speed tranny make this car so driveable in city driving, but the Supercharger makes this thing scream when you need it. The power and handling set up went beyond any other sedan I have driven in this price range. Of course. the XJR is not cheap at $75k, but compared to the other cars in this class, it drives like a fast sports car. From it's performance stats, it is a better comparison to the much more costly Mercedes S55 and the big 12 cylinder Beemer...Although I think that the XJR is still a bit quicker than either of those cars too.

I am not yet sure how this car will hold up, but so far, so good..... Problems....? Well, my adaptive cruise just went inoperative, but that is a component issue. The dealer ordered a replacement cruise module. By the way, my father also just got a new XJ8 and his car is trouble free too...at this point. We shall see how they both hold up...

ljflx · September 2003

Agree. The copying issue is getting rather boring.

mariner7 · September 2003

Audi Le Mans is simply gorgeous, but I see resemblance to VW R two seater concept! Won't surprise me if the same team did both.

Audi Nuovolari (?) is sensational too, just the aesthetic opposite of 6 series. Amazingly I'm starting to like the new Audi grille!

Now only if VAG can do the really hard part, make their cars reliable, they'd be unbeatable!

lenscap · September 2003

Take a look at the Mercedes Vision CLS revealed at the Frankfurt Auto Show yesterday. That front end sure looks a lot like the current Lexus ES 330.

fenn · September 2003

Those new Audi designs are great.

I think that Audi executes some of the best designs, and their current interiors are the highest quality. The new A8 interior is close to perfection. I preferred it over my new XJR's.

By the way, Mercedes makes some great cars, and has been one of the most respected and hallowed automotive icons, but the concept that Mercedes has the holy grail and Lexus and all others are out to steal it, copy it, and clone it, is a bit overblown ----if you ask me.

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