High End Luxury Cars

b4z · October 2003

Problems with MB showed up with the armored car that was under development before the LS 400.
I also know of several people who had multiple problems with their late 80's E class cars.

The problems with the Mercedess of today is mostly electrical due to the hi tech systems in use.
Not the drivetrains.

scottphillip · October 2003

I think that I read that Toyota is going to market some models in Japan under the Lexus name.

I looked at the 2004 LS430 today. It does seem a bit quicker with the new 6 speed transmission, and it now has a "tiptronic" feature. The one I drove was a base model. I also saw one with the sport package, but I didn't get to drive it. It will be interesting to see the sales volume.

michael_mattox · October 2003

I give up...I admit it...Mercedes/Chrysler (S-Class) is far prettier then my lexus..Has far more snob appeal...is more technologicly advanced... is faster and stops ALMOST as quickly as a Lexus LS430.

You win.....I must have made a horrible buying decision... I am now stuck with this Ultra luxury beater that costs about $30,000 less then the comperable S class, and never breaks down....POOR ME.

bluestar1 · October 2003

You asked: "How else to explain this? "

Answer: Toyota is a well recognized brand in Japan and all of Asia. Hence the perpetuation of the brand even with the twin versions named Lexus here in the US. Toyota is to Japan what GM is to America. Rock solid. This year, Toyota finally permitted Lexus branding in Japan. I guess we'll see how the average Japanese will accpet this change. The rest of the world recognizes the difference b/w Toyota and Lexus.

So, boo20, why won't you consider the LS is your car shopping ? It's not like its gonna kill you to take it for a spin ? Maybe it won't fit in within your crowd, but what the heck ? Give it a shot all the same. Then come back and tell us what you think, from a direct experience point of view. That assumes you can find an '04 LS430 lying around in your local Lexus dealership.

syswei · October 2003

You wrote Lexus is always playing catchup in technology. That along with its uninspired styling, reminicent more of a hearse than a luxury car, are two reasons that I don't see much of a future for Lexus in this market. Maybe you dont see much of a future for Lexus, but speak for yourself. The marketplace has shown you to be wrong, because Lexus has gone from ZERO market share in 1989 to the top-selling luxury brand in the USAi.e., outselling MB. The customer has spoken, and sees a future for Lexus.

As far as your statement about MBlead rather than follow in the luxury car market, there is no doubt that MB has done a lot of innovatingbut it has been around for 100+ years and Lexus for 14, what do you expect?

And who is leading and who following in quality and reliability?

In service?

In ergonomics?

In aerodynamics and wind noise?

In overall customer satisfaction?

In value?

In the curve-anticipating headlights you found important enough to brag about (when you mistakenly thought MB was first with them)?

A year from now, who will be leading and who following in hybrid powertrains?

ljflx · October 2003

Your logic is amazing. Yes the Lexus LS430 sells as a Toyota Celsior in Japan and Asia. Yes that is also about to change as Toyota takes the Lexus branding worldwide and then all those high upscale Asian Toyota sales which are counted as Toyota's now, get counted as Lexus sales in the future. Do the translation on a Celsior and you'll find it sells in the $60k-$80k range. Is the car, which in many cases includes DVD entertainment systems in it which I wish they would include here, not a luxury car because it has the Toyota badge?? I think quality of car and refinement defines luxury. Price becomes a function of that. Do you, for one second think a C-class is a luxury car because it has a Benz badge on it? I certainly don't.

Pablo - post 3147 was excellent and right on the money. You are also correct in your other post that the SC430 was selling over list and had a waiting list. The LS430 was also selling over list price in the first few months of the 2001 model year with a 6 month wait for the costliest ultra model. I hope that never happens again. I'm a buyer, not a fan rooting for something that hurts my wallet.

m5power · October 2003

See your post #5144...- "Now they (MB) build cars to a certain price point and their quality has suffered"- are you saying they build cars to a (significantly higher) price point and that's why their quality has suffered? And that's why Lexus can build an arguably fast, luxurious, and more reliable car for $20K+ less???? Is that some twisted defense of MB? Doesn't make sense to me. Are you somehow paying an extra $20K for tradition and prestige?

I work too damn hard for my money. Now if Lexus can just make a better looking, somewhat sportier cars while maintaining their reliability and luxury (LS/GS/ES/SC), MB would be in big, big, trouble-

boo20 · October 2003

You said "the 2004 LS has a Pre-safe system just like the 2003 S does."

NO IT DOESN'T.

Let's see Lexus' description of their "pre-collision system": "The Pre-Collision (PCS) System [2] uses radar to detect possible obstacles ahead. Sensors then determine in advance whether a crash is unavoidable. Once an accident is calculated to be inevitable, a computer immediately activates the Pre-Collision seatbelt, which restrains the driver and front passenger, and the Pre-Collision brake assist, which applies maximum braking force once the brake pedal is pressed."

Here is MBs description of their "Pre-safe" system: "PRE-SAFE® helps prepare occupants for a possible collision before it occurs. If ESP and/or Brake Assist areactivated upon sensing certain vehicle dynamics that suggest an accident is possible but, according to system sensors, are not correcting the situation, PRE-SAFE snugs the front seat belts via electric tensioners, adjusts the front passenger seat (and rear seats, with 4-place seating package)2 for more favorable seat-belt and air-bag effectiveness, and (if a possible rollover is detected) closes the sunroof. If no collision occurs, PRE-SAFE reverses the front seat-belt tensioners, and occupants may re-adjust their seats and the sunroof."

By "adjusting the front passenger seats" what pre-safe does is to prevent submarining by lowering the rear of the drivers seat cushion while simultaneously raising the front of the driver's seat. "Brake assist" is also a feature of all MBs whether they have the pre-safe feature or not.

Clearly the MB version is much more sophisticated and well thought out.

syswei · October 2003

Oh, yeah, one more question re your lead rather than follow in the luxury car market comment: who is leading who when a LS430 faces off against a S430 from a standing start?

LS430: 0-60 in 5.9 sec, 290 hp, 320 lb-ft

S430: 0-60 in 6.9 sec, 275 hp, 295 lb-ft

Well, maybe if we take the $18k in cash saved with the LS, and convert it to $1 bills and put it in the trunk, the weight makes the performance gap narrow a bit.

But the gap will widen down the road..quite considerably...with Lexus hybrid technology. It'll be like adding 2 cylinders when it comes to acceleration, but subtracting 2-4 cylinders when it comes to fuel consumption.

syswei · October 2003

Some of boo's hyperbole is so extreme that you have to wonder if even he really believes it. Could he really be working for MB or Lexus, and conducting some sort of weird marketing study?

300eguy05 · October 2003

Ok, so perhaps they are not exactly the same. But, I was not comparing, rahter making a point.

boo20 · October 2003

0 - 60 times? That's not the most important consideration when I'm looking for a winter car. Remember I want AWD (which, incidentally, Lexus does not make in a sedan). Anybody can build a fast car. I had a Camaro in the early eighties that would smoke both of these cars. So what does that prove? It had old technology: overhead valves, carburator etc.

If you really want to compare 0 - 60 times look at the E55. At 4.5 sec to 60 it is faster than a vette and will have the Lexus eating its dust.

syswei · October 2003

You wrote, "0 - 60 times? That's not the most important consideration when I'm looking for a winter car. Remember I want AWD..."

I must say, this sounds like a rationalization. Would you be dismissing 0-60 times if a base S430 "smoked" a base LS430? Are the curve-anticipating headlights (that MB wasn't first with anyway) more important to you?

ljflx · October 2003

Is anyone else as far along as Toyota with the hybrid technology? Other than Honda and GM, I haven't read much about anyone else. That technology is indeed going to set this whole segment on its ear. Plus the improved gas mileage coming with more power to boot is really going to peak the interest of the European buying public. Changing the way the game is played is the biggest innovation of all. Lexus already did that once in 1990. Apparently it's on the verge of doing it a second time.

carnaught · October 2003

that some of the Mercedes zealots dismiss survey data (JDP) and 0-60 times when it doesn't favor their marque over Lexus? Yet, they'll look to sportiness of driving and AMG data to negate the Lexus arguments. Oh...then there's the tired "refrigerator" looks and "Buick" driving characteristics arguments as applied to Lexus continually being dredged up.

boo20 · October 2003

Rationalization? What are you talking about? When I'm looking for a winter car the most important factor for me is the presence of AWD. NOT 0 -60 times.

If I want a fast luxurious car without regard to winter driving I would get an E55 which would blow ANY Lexus out of the water.

The point is that with MB I can choose to have AWD. With Lexus sedans I can't.

michael_mattox · October 2003

You have only told 1/2 of the story about the LS Pre Collision System, it also closes the sunroof if necessary and adjusts the seats backward and down to the most favorable position to withstand the collision and provide maximum effectiveness for the harness.

ARE YOU REALLY THIS DESPERATE TO MAKE SOME UNKNOWN POINT?

Bottom line: (My Opinion) BMW is the best true drivers car, Lexus offers the most luxury and dependability and Mercedes is somewhere in the middle. They are all wonderful cars and it serves no purpost to make outlandish claims or negative comments about any of these cars.

boo20 · October 2003

I was quoting directly from Lexus' website with regard to their "pre-collision" system. They don't mention anything about adjusting the driver's seat or closing the sunroof (both of which are done by MB's "pre-safe"). I made a good faith effort to find out and am curious where you get your information.

I also disagree that "these are all wonderful cars." There's nothing "wonderful" about the LS430. It appears to me to be uninspiring and lacking in subtlety.

ljflx · October 2003

If anyone read (or missed) the October 6 edition of Time there was an interesting business story in there. In it a high ranking exec of a company many of us have likely purchased from made the following statement. "We're not first. We just do it better. We're not embarrassed to admit it. We've come out of nowhere to be the No. 3 consumer brand in the U.S. in less than 5 years, while Coca Cola has been doing it for 100 years. Of course, we're not in this to be No. 3. No.1 is the only target around here. Who's the company?

Dell.

How did they do it - they copied others and then innovated a new way of selling and manufacturing. They turned the whole industry on it's ear. This whole innovation issue and who is leading it is absurd in my opinion. Auto manufacturing is a business. There is nothing wrong with making another company be your R&D department. It's actually smart business. The company that changes the way an industry does things is the ultimate innovator. That is the big picture. Things like a pre-collision systems and the like are little parts of the story. Of course Dell did innovate one thing as I noted earlier - that is for sure. They changed the rules of how the game is played by selling a computer differently then anyone else and out of nowhere pulled ahead of the likes of IBM (the innovator of the open PC in the first place) and HP. That is called smart business.

Boo20 - theres is nothing wonderful about the LS430 --- TO YOU. You left out two important words. I diasagree with your comment by the size of the world.

300eguy05 · October 2003

Well Said!

syswei · October 2003

I don't know where other car companies stand on hybrid, though I do know the US companies, including Chrysler, have done some work in the area. Toyota was first with a commercial vehicle, the original Prius, and has sold over 100k units worldwide. The 2004 Prius is much improved, offering more room (midsize rather than compact class), but at the same time better acceleration AND better mpg. I think there is a short review in the current R&T and/or C&D.

Of course with the Prius, Toyota chose to emphasize fuel economy...using hybrid to downsize the gas engine to 1.5 liters.

With Lexus, we will see the same size gas engine as in the standard vehicles, so hybrid will be additive to performance (while offering a still impressive but lesser fuel economy improvement). As a sign of the performance angle, the RX hybrid as I understand will be called the RX400H (despite having the same 3.3L engine). Also as I've posted before, hybrid has been banned from Formula 1 competition, apparently because it would have given too big a performance advantage to those teams that incorporated it first.

More info is at http://en.lexus-hybrid.com/home.html and http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/prius/index.html

I agree with you, this technology stands to be a very big differentiator if Lexus can move its whole product line to it before others get their acts together.

syswei · October 2003

2004 Prius reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article- _id=7066&page_number=1

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_- id=828&page_number=1

Also, Californians take note of this from Automobile Magazine: "California May Allow Single-occupancy Hybrids in Carpool Lane"

pat · October 2003

and I'm thinking that it is WAY past time to stop feeding the troll...

sv7887 · October 2003

Hi All,
Boo,
How can you compare an E55 to a stock Lexus sedan? That comparison doesn't make any sense. How much does an E55 cost anyway? I'm guessing it's somewhere near the price of a 911.

Anyone know if there are any modified GS cars out there? Lexus doesn't seem to have a dedicated Racing outfit like MB and BMW. But, for stock sedans they're pretty good in performance specs.

I seem to think the advantages of AWD are grossly overblown. I'm not saying this b/c Lexus doesn't offer it, but b/c of my 35+ yrs of driving experience. I've driven in the worst of weather with a variety of cars. I found the Range Rover (Back in the mid 70's) to be the best in harsh Scotland winters. In New England, I've had little trouble with my front wheel drive cars. The LS cars I've had needed snow tires, but drove fine otherwise. I didn't bother putting snow tires last year on my '92 and didn't get stuck anywhere.

For those who've driven AWD...Is there a perceptible difference in ride quality vs RWD?

SV

ljflx · October 2003

Just for the heck of it I checked the Ray Catena MB advertisement in the Sunday paper again this week. It listed 62 NEW MB's and said this was a partial list of more than 500 NEW cars. The cars listed were all 2003's but then I checked Edmunds new cars and the 2004 S, SL and E are not out yet. So 2003 is all you can go by. Let's see - we have 12 E320's, 3 E500's, 17 S430's and 4 S500's. The impossible to get SL - there are 9 of them including an AMG. There are even a few CL AMG's and a CL 500. This is out of the 62 listed cars not the 500+ available cars. There are also 6 used (Starmark) 2003 SL500's and SL 55's. Those who returned them obviously drove them for far less a period of time then they waited for them. So where is the waiting list if all these new can be driven off the lot tommorrow. The other mystery is why did 6 SL's come back so quickly.

b4z · October 2003

are usually the first to go off the road.
Drivers get overconfident.

AWD vehicles generally ride a litte harder
riding.

callmedrfill · October 2003

   Is the Cadillac "SRX" better than the Infiniti FX, or VW Touraeg (As C&D states)? Which would you rather own?
   Will the upcoming Lexus "HPX" lap the field?
   Will Infiniti EVER get the Q right?
   Will Acura ever step up and build a V8 luxury car?
   Will the upcoming underdogs 2005 Audi A6 and Lexus GS find equal standing against the redesigned E-Class and 5-Series?
   Will they add a stick to their V8's?
   Will Infiniti bring a convertible version of the Nissan Skyline here as an answer to the SL/SC/XLR convertible fight?
   Will Lexus start to pull away in the Sales standings over the next decade with their Hybrid system for enhancing performance/economy/vale?
   Will Mercedes ever give us a break with the C230 hatchback?
   Is the upcoming BMW 2-Series a Mini Crapper with 4-doors?
   Will there be an M7?
   Will the BMW 645ci sink or swim?
   How long will BMW go with Bangle's Hit-or-Miss design barrage?
   Can I get a Bud?

   drfill

bmwseller · October 2003

from a 'bimmer guy....

Go with the X5 if you want a stick. It' the best driver anyway.

M7 won't happen, IMO.

The 6 coupe and convertible will be a huge hit and then all of the sudden fade off into the sunset, like any great car should. M6 will be a show stopper if that happens.

BMW doesn't want to mainstream and widely accepted by the average john/jane so, Bangle is a good fit and I appreciate the streams of the new designs.

ljflx · October 2003

The HPX will lap the field just like the RX did. I wish they would have built it already. The GS will gain a lot of ground quickly if the pix I seen are authentic. As for Bangle - he should remember he is designing cars not painting on canvas. These eyebrows and things like that on the BMW's make me think he should have been a portrait painter.

syswei · October 2003

Pat or someone, please explain for the ignorant, what exactly is a troll?

nvbanker · October 2003

a bombthrower who lurks around these threads and pops up causing trouble -

merc1 · October 2003

Gee whiz, I take a 4 day break to enjoy Chicago's last few decent (summer-like) days and actually watch a baseball game for 2nd time ever (Cubs) and there are more posts made during those 4 days than in the previous month!!

bmwseller,

When I first saw you on this board I remembered Edmunds' agreement that prevents from saying anything about you as far as your motives go.

syswei,

In you post 3048 you stated:

"Not a judgement that runs something like "gee, the Acura TL has had some transmission problems, and although I have no idea how widespread the problem is, it shows that the ENTIRE Acura brand might be just as unreliable as brand X"."

Exactly! You don't know yet you assume the best. I can't wait until the 02' and 03' model Acura TL comes up in the 05' and 06' dependability survey.

"I have news for you. The 2004 E does not come with the 7 speed."

The 2004 E500 does too come with the 7-speed transmission, the dealer here just got 3 of them today. Check the MB website if you don't believe it.

Thats funny you have to compare the acceleration of the LS430 to the SL500. Is Lexus really that bad off?

When and if Lexus' hybrids actually make V8 power and V6 gas mileage a reality, I'll be the first to congratulate them, until then however it's just wait and see.

Still reading through the posts. RE: #3153.

Do we have to go through this innovation and technology thing again? When are you going to realize that your list of what you think Lexus does so well aren't innovations? Do you not realize that Mercedes is responsible for your Lexus' ABS, crumple zones, stability control etc? You gave your list of things in reply to what boo20 said about technology. What in the world is technical about customer service, which you try to list twice as service and then customer service. Value? What does that have to do with technology? Thats good marketing. You're confused as to what innovations and technology are. Hybrid technology is just that, technology and innovation.

The adaptive headlights were on sale here FIRST by Lexus with their 04' RX330, but you do realize that certain 04' BMW and Mercedes models will also have these? We're not talking about the years lag like when Lexus finally gets something Mercedes has had for years, like Keyless Go. They're basically being introduced by all three brands for the same model year, if no the exact same month.

BTW, JDP can't tell you what every MB dealer has in stock. Only the larger-volume, more affluent area dealers are going to have SLs in stock.

boo20,

"Another reason people may be waiting for the '04 E class is because this is the first year that MB is bringing back the legendary E 500. The '03s are only available with 3.2 and 4.3 L engines."

You're letting them force you to spread yourself too thin. The 03' E-Class was available as a E500 model.

sv7887,

The car, like practically any other, requires an Oil change every 5000-7500 miles. Any decent mechanic will tell you frequent oil changes are probably one of the best things you can do for you car. Obviously, the Duration depends on how much you drive.

Right and Wrong. Wrong as far as Mercedes goes. The FSS (Flexible Service System) computes when a service is do, unlike Lexus which needs an oil change every 5000-7K miles, a Mercedes doesn't. Mercedes also specifies synthetic for all its cars no, so no they don't go back for service every 5-7K miles like any other other. You're right as duration dictates the service interval, of which a Lexus can't determine for itself. The Lexus way is low tech in this reguard. Did you know that a very much dissed American car brand has the technology to read it's own oil and determine the service interval?

"As for the Seven Speed Issue...Don't you think this is overkill? I don't see anyone else rushing to adopt a 7 Speed Transmission. Even a high performance car like a Corvette, Aston Martin
Vanquish, and Porsche 911 only have six speeds and can probably beat anything MB has to offer."

At first I would honestly say YES. However if the new trans delivers on it's promise of better acceleration and fuel economy whats not to like? The Corvette doesn't compete with any Mercedes, so whats the point of bringing it up? The Aston Martin Vanqish gets beat by a the SL55 AMG, with it's 5-Speed, so image what will happen when AMG tweaks the 7speed for their cars. The 911 Turbo in automatic form I guess you could say competes with the SL55 or SL600, but they are vastly different types of cars. Yes the 911 TT is faster than either, but it should be considering it's 1000lbs weight advantage. The SL is a GT car, the 911 is a purebread sports car. When you want to compare the GT cars (you know actual competitors to the SL55) to each other, let me know and I'll show you where you can read about the awesome SL55 AMG and it's capabilites.

The real test of the new 7speed will be in the E500, S430, S500, SL500 and CL500, when they are tested by the automags and prospective buyers.

You're knocking Mercedes for going further because Lexus doesn't and isn't a leading innovator. It's the same old story, unless Lexus comes up with it, it doesn't matter. Mercedes is bringing a 7speed to the market for the same reason Lexus is bringing a 6sp to the market, better acceleration, fuel economy and just more all around flexibility, and lastly competition. Truth be told, a 5-speed trans is more than an "enough" in these cars, or are you telling me the current 5-speed in the LS430 is so lousy that a 6-speed was actually "needed"? I know that wasn't the case. If Mercedes is bringing needless tech to the market then so is Lexus, and Lexus is doing it "late" as usual.

ljflx,

Now as always I look forward to your take on this issue, but there are a couple of things you've missed.

These surveys. I don't know what you think Mercedes' problems is specifically, but you seem to think that these are breakdowns by the side of the road. A lot of this "survey" hoopla is bs because when I see certain cars getting knocked for cupholders and stereo systems and fuel economy there is a problem. Fuel economy on a Hummer? Thats the most ridiculous expectation any Hummer buyer could have ever had. Cupholders on a Mini Cooper? Ditto. Now when it comes to Mercedes...........and before you say it....I'm not saying that this simple stuff is causing their downfall. From what I've read, seen, etc etc, it seems to be smaller electronic glitches, especially dealing with the Comand system. I've also seen things about ABC when it first came out, ditto for Airmatic. The problem is that you guys who think these surveys are king don't even know the criteria they (especially JDP) uses or what they feel is a "problem", because fuel economy in a Hummer surely isn't a "problem" in the basic sense of the word, it's more like a unaviodable trait of a 6000lb tru

merc1 · October 2003

There is something the Lexus faction will never grasp. People who really like cars (dare I say enthusiast) aren't going to want a car like a LS430 no matter how reliable it is because of it's design. It doesn't help that in the AutoWeek buyers guide they list the LS430 as being a JDP star. To some, not all..that says boring.

Now a few days ago you stated that the same dealer has 35 SL's in stock now they have 9? Come on now. I think you know you were mistaken on the first number. SLs like any other high-end car are sometimes "flipped" back to the dealer for more than the person paid for them. No, I'm not saying that this is the case with the 6 SLs you're saying (not sure if that is true) have come back to the dealer. This is something a Lexus buyer couldn't do until the SC430 came out. Unfortunately for Lexus that practice died quickly with the SC430.

Yes I see that Lexus has something similar to Mercedes' Pre-Safe system for 2004, and they also have an option similar to MB's Keyless Go for 04' also. It's about time since MB had Keyless entry since 01 and Pre-safe since last year. Lexus is always the come from behind, late as usual entry, that isn't always the MB's equal, like their so called pre-collision system. When are they going to do something first? They've cut it down to 1 and 3 years repectively, 300eguy05.

pablo_l,

I don't see how you can equate Mercedes and Chrysler's relationship as being the same as Toyotas and Lexus'. There are no gussied up Chryslers running around as Mercedes'. Chrysler is raiding Mercedes' old parts bin, not the other way around. The IS300 is just that, a Toyota....outside the U.S. The ES300 is much closer to the Camry than any Benz is a Chrysler. The GS, LS and SC do stand alone as they don't have Toyota cousin in THIS country.

_________________________________________________________________- - - ___

Waiting Lists. They vary by area and by model of car. Simply put there may be one (there is) here at Naperville for the SL55 or just introduced SL600. Yes they do have one used SL55 in stock, but there aren't any new ones. The CL55 or E55 are also in high demand here. They have a pretty good mix of 03 and 04 E-Class cars on the lot right now, some are tagged as "sold" some aren't. If there is a waiting list for the E-Class, its probably for the 4Matic models being offered for 04', there is good chance that dealers have people on a list for these as they are quite popular, especially in the Northeast and Midwest. There is a "waiting list" for the new CLK Cabriolets. I'll bet that no Lexus fan will find 6 of these sitting unsold on a MB dealers lot.

Overall it depends on the model and where it's being bought. There are no blanket rules for this nationwide after the first year a new Mercedes has been out. Right now the only MB I can see that would have a waiting list nationwide is the CLK Cabrio, and possibly the E55.

A "waiting list" is just the time between when a person orders a car and when its delivered. This is not anything new for Mercedes-Benz or any other luxury maker with a hot product. The difference is that Mercedes' rarer cars are limited in production, unlike certain Japanese makers who will "ramp-up" production to meet demand. That will satisfy the market, but it kills the brand image. Lexus doesn't have anything comparable to the AMG cars or the CL in general so there is a big difference here. How many Lexus fans are awaiting Lexus to come out with awd, of course there will be some sort of waiting list for the first year's worth of GS or LS cars when they get awd. So why is it so unbelievable that the E-Class 4Matic models don't have a waiting list? There also seems to be a theory that just because a dealer has a SL that was returned for some reason or have a stray SL55 in stock nobody else is waiting for their car to come it. Thats ridiculous at best. What does this have to do with people who have ordered a specific color and/or options and don't want the dealers leftovers and/or traded back cars? Nothing.

M

b4z · October 2003

Those are some long posts.

merc1 · October 2003

I know, I had a lot to address, there were like over a 100 posts in just 4 days!

M

pablo_l · October 2003

One can and should point out the Chrysler DNA in MB corporation if Lexus supposedly "is a Toyota" - the thing is that none of these companies is an exclusive luxury goods maker. They are mass producers, MB every bit as much as Toyota. Check out the German MB site and tell us how the A class or cars such as the A class or the C180 contribute to the exclusivity of the brand. It's called economy of scale.

Does MB have higher brand equity in the luxury sedan market? Yes.
Does Lexus have good brand equity in the luxury sedan market? Yes.
Does Toyota have the same - no. The argument is a fallacy. Toyota successfully createda different brand. Incidentally, Mercedes did the same with Maybach, seemingly thinking there was a target audience that had already lost with given the downmarket appeal they have created and aspired for in the last 20 years.

In a nutshell - I would not buy a Lexus myself for some weird psychological reason, but I draw the line at someone making silly points such as making it a big deal that they are under the Toyota corporate umbrella, and claiming that means every Lexus is a Toyota.

bmwseller · October 2003

MERC1.........welcome back, and GO CUBS...

BMW had the 1st ones ........... fact. The 2004 coupes and convertibles were released in the early spring. By the way, I sold two cars Saturday(Z4 and used Jetta), neither of which I solicited from a chat room.

Autonews yesterday says that DMX will use mercedes parts on the new Magnum (20%). SO, will Mopar drivers go around saying "hey, check out my Benz!"

sv7887 · October 2003

Hi Merc,

I agree with everything you said. I do feel as if a 5 spd transmission is enough. I suppose Lexus doesn't have much choice but to update, lest they be left too far behind. They've stayed out of the Horsepower races, simply updating the cars enough to remain competitive but not win.

I think Lexus is making a smart corporate decision by letting someone else spend all the R/D $$$ and gamble whether the marketplace wants the feature. It's good business, but not good for matters of prestige. I've noticed Lexus seems to wait until certain options have matured in their product cycles.

As we've all stated, Reliability is Lexus' chief Marketing tool, so it's no surprise they lag in adopting cutting edge technology. I suppose they don't want to rush something to market and find that it brings down their reliability ratings.

At least they're being "innovative" with their adoption of Hybrid technology. This is a considerable leap forward in automotive technology. We'll how the Hybrid RX does (Mid 2004?) The Prius is a pretty good car, so my expectations are high.

SV

b4z · October 2003

5 speed gives advantage of lower and closer gear spacing below 1.00.
6 speed gives advantage of 2 overdrive gears.
With 6 usually being taller than what a company would offer in a 5 speed.
I see no use for a 7 speed.

b4z · October 2003

Toyotas are good cars so I don't hold that against Lexus.
Mercede's are used as taxis in Europe.
They only send the high equipment ones here.

michael_mattox · October 2003

Taking an innovation that Mercedes first used ...Lexus perfecting it and making it reliable ...Is innovation in it itself.

Mercedes/Chrysler is a fine car. The Chinese built Mercedes at the Chrysler plant will probable help Mercedes dependability...A step in the right direction.

Bottom line...Mercedes is a fine car with a great tradition, it will eventually work out it's quality problems and become an even a greater car.

carnaught · October 2003

According to post #3191 I'm NOT a car enthusiast because I own an LS430. Hmmm, and I always thought of myself as such.

(Maybe because I also have an E Mercedes I'm half an enthusiast.)

ljflx · October 2003

No - It works like a toggle switch. You buy a Lexus and you toggle off. You sell one and you toggle back on. If you buy MB instead of a different car you toggle to the maximum enthusiast level. Maybe you are a semi-enthusiast or maybe you are a confused one. But don't feel bad as I have 3 vehicles and they are all Lexus so I'm as far removed from being an enthusiast as is reasonably possible. But I'll improve next year as all leases are up and I'm going back to an LS430 and an LX470 and withdrawing from having a third car. But after that I may lay my hands on an SL as a third car in 2005 (I guess I'll have to order pretty soon though because that likelihood is 15 months away which is less than the waiting list) so I'll end up being as confused as you in this enthusiast realm. I must say I do read some real comical theories around this place.

tasillo · October 2003

This debate really cracks me up. The interesting thing is, very few "enthusiasists" will show much interest in the Lexus, but many "prestige" or "luxury" buyers will buy BMW or Mercedes. As for me, with both 740 and LS400's in the family, I feel qualified to comment.

Simply put, the BMW is more rewarding to drive, the Lexus more rewarding to own. A few things about the BMW after 3 years and 57k. Why can't the Europeans get electronics right? Both the NAV display and the dot matrix driver info center on the BMW have been and still are on the blink. If you don't think that's a big deal, try driving 500 miles in a day looking at a display with missing letters/numbers in the display. Of course BMW says, "Couldn't duplicate the condition". The 18" staggered wheels and performance tires look fantastic and ride well, but... cup very easily and get quite noisy as early as 9k miles. I've tried Continental, Michelin and Pirelli, all do the same. BMW's MacPherson strut front suspension is harder on tires than unequal A-arms on Mercedes and Lexus. BMW resale is also quite suspect. A 72k car, now 3 years old with 57k miles is worth 25k at trade. The 50k Lexus is worth the same.

The LS is simply the worlds best built Lincoln Town Car, with better shock and tires. Not at all rewarding to drive, but bulletproof and simply not an aggravating ownership experience. Everything works, always! Can't say that about the Bimmer.

Now that my 740 is out of warranty and closing in on 60k miles, ownership may get real interesting. Stay tuned...

JBaumgart · October 2003

Question for both Lexus owners and the "real enthusiasts" in the group: What will be the more likely scenario over the next 5 years,

A. For Lexus, making their LS more rewarding (fun)to drive, or

B. For BMW and Mercedes, making their 7 and S series more rewarding (reliable) to own?

pablo_l · October 2003

Both Merc and BMW are mature companies, and it is inexcusable that the ownership experience would be regarded as less rewarding by owners! They should be put by Tom Peters' seminars to value and deliver on customer-focused excellence, no excuses. Any other approach will compromise their success mid-term - they are in a very competitive market, and customers are notoriously fickle after *one* bad ownership experience.

The market will speak, it just typically takes a few years before doing so. My prediction: the Japanese brands will continue to gain, the Euorpean prestige brands will have to fight harder to defend their remaining market share. At this point, the Japanese brands' trendy offerings are gaining ground in Euopren at a very fast pace...

I was driven around Boston in a '03 Honda Accord today, and couldn't help but marvel at the fantastic price-performance-value that car delivers on. Really: S-class quiet and composed, C-class economy. I have to yet repeat on my Japanese ownership experience, but I do believe they're one to something...

merc1 · October 2003

You've said that before and like before you couldn't name a single thing that Mercedes invented or came out with first, etc. that Lexus later perfected. Keep believing that if you like, but its pure fantasy. Lexus uses the basic building blocks laid down by Mercedes over 100 years ago just like everyone else does, they've done nothing special or different with them. Mercedes' more complex "stuff" like SBC, ABC etc, Lexus has no answer for. Yes, Lexus is showing true innovation with their Hyrbrid plans. Even I will be impressed if they pull it off in a vehicle like a RX or LS, as the Toyota Prius doesn't appeal to me.

sv7887,

That is the most level post I think I've ever seen from you, and I really can't take issue with any of it. Lexus is smart, no doubt. Ferrari did the same thing back in the day when Porsche switched to rear and mid-engined cars....Ferrari waited until Porsche perfected the concept before adopting it. Somewhat similar to MBs and Lexus' relationship, both are great companies, but one just carries more weight with the enthusiast crowd.

M

merc1 · October 2003

So you're still saying that the IS300 isn't a just a Toyota with a "L" slapped on it for the purpose of selling it here? There is no such relationship in the DCX union. Yes, Mercedes sells cheaper cars elsewhere in the world, but they at no time started out as being Chryslers. All "Lexuses" are Toyotas in their own homeland, and in other countries. Mercedes' are Mercedes' everywhere.

M

habitat1 · October 2003

JBaumgart:

Interesting question. Unfortunately, "none of the above" seem to apply right now. As a driving "enthusiast", I have yet to drive anything from the Japanese marques that impresses me. (Sedan-wise, since I'm not going to include the little Honda S2000 which I do hold in high regard compared to a nearly twice as expensive Boxster S). The Q45 clearly has the LS430 beat in this area, but it still isn't a 7 series, and nowhere near the AMG or Motorsport level. On the reliability front, I have been extremely pleased with the BMW 5-series (540i 6-speed and M5), but I know far too many friends and associates who have not had good experience recently with the E-class, S-class or 7-series.

merc1, boo20, pablo, et al.

You don't have to convince me of the value of heritage and automotive engineering excellence. Over the last 25 years, I've gone from an original BMW M1 to a 2002 M5 and in between had, amoung others, a 930 Turbo, 300SEL 6.3, and several other "heritage" cars.

That said, I am not willing to overlook the basic reliability factor, especially when it comes to an everyday driver like the E, S or 7. These are not AMG or M supercars. I hope your consistent cheerleading for Mercedes and against Lexus is not to suggest satisfaction with mediocraty in this area. It clearly needs to be improved, if not for the next quarterly report to Wall Street, for longer term strategic competitiveness.

I feel strongly about this. I took over controlling interest in a company several years ago at a time when most in the industry thought that we were "doing all right" in the area of customer satisfaction. After firing the senior managers who though we were "doing all right" and promoting those who had a desire to do better, we have gone from a market value of under $100 million to over $1 billion.

I, for one, sincerely hope that Mercedes in particular does not waste away its heritage with delivering less than acceptable levels of customer satisfaction. The notion that, because Mercedes has lowered it's relative price points, a $50k+ E-class is allowed to be less relaible than a $20k Honda Accord, is completely unacceptable to me. And I hope to every Mercedes enthusiast and Daimler Chrysler executive out there.

lenscap · October 2003

"All "Lexuses" are Toyotas in their own homeland, and in other countries."

This statement is so misleading (and incorrect) that it warrants clarification.

First of all, Lexus models have been sold in Europe for several years now. In fact, the SC 430 had a waiting list for quite a while in England.

Second, and most important, Lexus models are not simply sold as Toyotas in Japan. Yes, they have "Toyota" spelled out on the trunk but that is a very misleading comment. You see, in Japan their culture is different than in the US. Toyota has such a powerful brand equity that Toyotas are not sold under different division names - it's not needed. It would be as if all GM cars were badged "GM." You would have a GM Cavalier on up to a GM STS.

Knowing that there are different price points, Toyota has grouped certain cars together and sells them in one of many sales channels. So, go into the "upper" showroom and you'll find cars like the Celsior (LS 430), Aristo (GS) and Soarer (SC 430) - cars that are every bit as expensive as their Lexus counterparts in the US. These cars were developed as premium cars and are not marked up in the US. Go into another channel and you'll find the RAV 4 and Celica. These cars do not share the same channels and showrooms because they cater to different markets.

All world markets are not the same. That is why Toyota needed to come up with a different brand name in the US, Europe and elsewhere. It's no different than Mercedes labeling its upper cars Maybach. Now that the Lexus name is established it will be incorporated into the upper sales channels in Japan. Lexus models here will be Lexus models there in just a few short years.

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