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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Let me know what pricepoints you get on the LX470. I'm also buying or leasing at the end of the year or in January. If you are still shopping then I'll let you know prices I am getting as well. In the meantime check prices and lease deals at LexusUS.com to keep your dealer honest on prices he gives you. It's a great suv with an LS430 like ride if you can believe a truck that big can ride so gracefully. The TLC may look like it but it lacks the LX refinement.

    By the way that site is being changed to fleetUS.com (I believe) and will also do deals on MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche and others in the very near future. So if you are shopping the other brands it is worth a check to keep your dealer honest.

    Lenscap - great posts as always. So the Celsior is a Lexus afterall. Believe me, some people around here will still not accept that. One question though - did Toyota have the v-12 Crown prior to 1990 or was it also introduced at the time Lexus was born. That v-12 has always been the rumored upscale engine for the LS. But the hybrid technology may blow it away. As well I believe the sports car in the link you posted is that V-10 super car that they are coming out with supposedly in step with the next GS.

    HPX - Super looking vehicle. I saw HPX and the Infiniti at the NY auto show and people were ga-ga over the HPX. It is far more sleek and lower to the ground than the Infiniti and much better looking.

    Syswei - thanks for the links.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I had only looked at the front of the car on your link and didn't realize they give you an all around look. Obviously that is a 4 door car so I was wrong aboth the supercar and it may well be the next GS. I like it. If they are changing styles to a more sporty athletic look like that I'm quite interested to see what the next LS will look like.

    I haven't looked at the GS board in a while. You should post it there and see the reaction there unless you already did.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I don't get the platform sharing bashing at all. It results in better cars, not worse ones, because it allows manufacturers to truly invest money where it makes the most difference. The tuning process turns shared-platform cars into utterly different cars anyhow.

    On the Bentley Conti, good luck, 'cause they're sold out well into '05 at this point. It seems to be the only one of the recently introduced supercars that is meeting/exceeding expectations. Awesome car, I saw it at the intro to the US market last year (or perhaps early this year? I forgot) in LA, and the interior is out of this world.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Saw this on the resale forum (post #14968) here at Edmunds, as stated by Terry, the resident oracle on that forum:

    Terry is a car salesman, and a darn good one too. Knows the market like the back of his hand. So I'd trust his statement here.

    -------------------------------------------------
    "Audi's are great vehicles, but that market dwindles when you ad miles to the equation, but some vehicles like Subaru's and Honda's the buyers go blind on the miles, if they are clean ... remember I don't make the market, I just live it ..l.o.l.... try selling a 01 MB S430 with 35/40k, it's like selling Chicken Pox ..

                          Terry.
    -------------------------------------------------

    Wow ! What would Boo20 say about the part on the S430 ?. I guess there ain't a waiting list for S-class afterall since they cannot seem to give them away after a couple of years of use, lol !
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    There is nothing wrong with creating a new brand, it just won't have the draw with some people who like all the heritage, image stuff. It was the brilliant move on the part of Toyota because nobody here would be paying LS430, GS, and SC prices for "Toyotas" in this country. They had no choice but to come up with a fictional name that they had to go to court to keep because it belonged to someone else.

    The ES300 started life as a Camry, and the IS300 is just a Toyota with a "L" on it for the U.S. market. The first generation ES, the ES250 was a Camry with a different grille and nothing more. A teacher of mine had one and it was about the worse rebadge job I'd seen outside of GM. How in the world could anyone think that the first generation ES250 was truly a seperate car is beyond everything automotive. The GS, LS and SC may have been purpose built as higher end cars, but they are still marketed as Toyotas in Japan...they're not Lexuses. These cars are just badged as Lexuses for U.S. consumption, for in Japan they are just upmarket Toyotas. There is no "Lexus" nameplate in Japan, yet.

    My point in bringing this up was that some here have tried to say that Mercedes' and Maybach's relationship is the same thing and it isn't.

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    OK, let's consider this scenario:

    Toyota Corp, a huge conglomerate based out of Japan, decides to expand their base into the luxury market. Decide on their intended target segments, and make elaborate and very strategic plans on what the future will be for this new branding. Then go out and execute flawlessly. Trouble is Toyota's brand in Japan is very strong, and hence cannot be diluted. Toyota's brand in the biggest car market, the USA, is that of a stodgy but reliable means of transportation. Nothing fancy nor luxurious about Toyota. So how about a new brand name they can build upon leveraging Toyota's strengths - reliability and value; package this with great luxury amenities, solid build quality and an exceptional customer service organization ? All recipes for success if executed flawlessly. Lexus begins life in the US. Platforms are shared to contain cost and push the cars out quickly. The Camry is rebadged as the entry level ES250. But they build from scratch the LS, GS and SC. Upmarket these within Japan and Asia as Toyota cos that's what the public out there identify with as a strong brand. Later, Toyota adds in the LX as a rebadged LC with a few frills and nicer interior amenities and more cushy ride. The RX, IS and GX come merrily along later.

    Now fast forward 15 years, and the home market has had plenty of time to adjust to Toyota's other brand - Lexus. And this baby has come of age and bested the best of the best at what they do best. The foundation for the future has been built from ground up. Now it is necessary to let this grown up loose to chart its own future.

    If I were Merc and BMW I'd be real worried about a *free-er* Lexus from the clutches of Toyota. Lexus has a deep pocket, a worldwide brand awareness, excellent market share and still growing, and now its own INDEPENDENCE to embark on its own future. Look out !

    And it all begins in the Summer of 2005 !!!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think anyone has disputed that as being exactly what they did. The only part that isn't totally accurate is the besting the best at what they do best. Not quite true, otherwise Lexus would have run Mercedes, BMW and others out of the market. Nobody bests the best at everything. Not even Lexus.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I think when it comes to used luxury cars buyers almost expect low miles.

    As if the previous owner had another car to drive.
    In many cases this is true.

    I have spent a lot of time the last month looking at LS 400s on ebay and there are quite a few cars that have very low miles.
    Some that are averaging 7500 miles a year.
    And the occasional 5500 mile per year car.
    I am talking about 14 year old LS 400's that have
    65-80K miles on them.
    They usually sell above nada black book.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    tomshardware.com, endian.net, anandtech.com are some sites that (for intel/amd, don't know about apple) will spell out future product roadmaps
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Member Posts: 200
    I've taken a little heat here for suggesting that mercedes has damaged it's name brand for several reasons. One of the reasons that I stated was that DMX is now building MB's in china. Well, to my horror I read in todays AutomotiveNews that BMW is building 3's in china for sale in china and that they will also produce 5's there.
    Oops!! I guess it's a global community and a great car can come from south carolina, south africa or ........gulp, china.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Back in the 60s and early 70s "made in Japan" implied cheapness and not quality in most people's minds. Times change. The same thing will happen over time with China.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Found this link on another forum (it is a gray area as to whether I can name the competing site, per Edmunds policies, so I won't): http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=40796
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If they intend to rival the S and 7 with the GS where on earth are they going with the LS?? To the stars?

    That car looks and sounds awesome. That will be the last of any MB style copying we'll hear around here. Also is the HPX then slated as an upscale RX. That one confused me.

    It will also be very interesting to see what they do with the LX and how hybrid technology will affect gas mileage and power in that thing by 2006 or 2007. I guess I will lease the 2004 as the new developments at Lexus will be huge.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yeah, the part about the GS rivaling the S and 7 we have to take with a grain of salt, being that it was reported by a trade rag based on the sort of marketing hype that can come out of auto shows.

    Mileage-wise, I get only 18-19 in mixed driving with my 99 RX, and much less (never calculated and there is no trip computer to tell me) in the 2000 LX, so I agree it isn't time to buy a new Lexus SUV with the hybrids 1-3 years away, depending on model.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    i_drive said:

    "i just drove home today, and while on the freeway, a shiny new 2003 silver Q45. i couldn't help but realize the resemblance between the Q and the Audi A4 (ONLY the rear tail lights). they have a similar shape and color."

    I too, saw that resemblance as a former Q45 owner, although I think it was probably coincidental. However, we need to be careful.... because there is a tail light conspiracy theorist on this board that thinks Lexus has been cloning Mercedes lights...Oops, I better not bring that up again!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't want to go there either but I saw the Honda you referred to a few weeks ago and the taillights on it are very Mercedes-like. In fact the whole rear had a bit of an SL look.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    syswei wants folks to see this post: jimxo "Lexus GS" Oct 13, 2003 11:11pm

    (I'm reposting for him because of a problem with his earlier message.)
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Thanks for the kind words about my posts. I do not know when the Crown V12 was introduced. I'll see if I can find out.

    By the way, check out the link below for a look at the Crown Concept debuting at the Tokyo Show. After clicking on the link click on Toyota Booth Special Site (the big square in the center of the page). You'll see several cars moving around in circles - click on the silver sedan which is the Crown. It looks production ready to me.

    http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/event/auto_shows/index.html
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Yeah. It's actually a great looking car.

    Lenscap - That may have some of the look of the next LS. But it's not in step with the other Lexus styles shown which are supposed to take on greater uniformity so perhaps the Crown will stay on its own course. Time will tell. But it did state the car has been around 48 years so that answered the question.
  • prattsterprattster Member Posts: 59
    There's a good write-up in a recent Autoweek about the long rumored new supercar that will appear as a Lexus at the 05' Tokyo motor show. The mid-engine low slung NSX, Ferrari, Porsche fighter will sport an all new V-10 with around 500hp and all wheel drive.

    Pricing will be near $100K making it the most expensive Lexus and Japanese car to date. Engineers were having vibration issues with the V-10 and have since resolved this the article states.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I notice that the "Crown concept" is a V6 ...I wonder why they're calling it a Crown. I also noticed it is shorter than an LS, though I haven't compared other dimensions, or checked dimensions of the current Crown.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I ran across this in autoweek.com (while looking for prattster's article):

    "Eighty percent of buyers ordered the Intelligent Parking Assist option, which is bundled with the car's optional DVD navigation system. The package costs ¥230,000, or about $2,100 at current exchange rates...The automatic-parking system...accomplishes the parallel parking function without input from the driver."

    They are talking about the 2004 Prius hybrid, but hopefully it will make it over here in the Lexus line. Sounds like an interesting innovation to me...or maybe MB did it first and I'm just not aware?

    The full article: http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08721025
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I think that the first tone of the next generation Infiniti Q45 (although it may not be called "Q45" ) is starting to take shape under the code name of FUGA
    ...this is from Nissan news website

    Main Features of Concept Cars

    FUGA
    Proposing a new direction in luxury cars that are both sporty and roomy
    - Fuga’s styling achieves two elements of a sporty exterior and roomy interior without tolerating any compromises.
    - The FR-L Platform (FM Package), which is also used on the new Skyline, delivers superb driving performance.
    - Interior spaciousness surpasses all other sedans in this class. Fuga’s tall overall height that provides ample headroom, and legroom is expanded for rear-seat occupants.
    - The interior’s overall tone is unified in Japanese imagery and a modern design.
    - Human-machine interfaces (HMI) that are simpler and easier to understand and operate are located in the middle of the center console. Control switches mounted on the steering wheel reduce the driver’s workload substantially while providing multifunctionality.

    I am guessing that these ideas may appear in a 2006 Infiniti model.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    A newspaper reporter is hoping to interview consumers who have had their auto insurance cancelled because they had a claim or a ticket. Please submit your daytime contact information and a few lines about your experience to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, October 22, 2003.
    Thanks,
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    PR Director
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    The FUGA can be seen at the link below. It looks more like an M45 replacement than a Q45. We'll have to wait and see.

    http://press.nissan-global.com/TOKYO_MOTOR_SHOW_2003/EN/SHOW_CAR/- fuga_serenity.html#FUGA
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Member Posts: 200
    Camry means crown according to Toyota literature that I read when selling for toyota a long time ago. Maybe someone can verify this.
  • bmwsellerbmwseller Member Posts: 200
    Some have voiced comparisons/criticisms of the Pacifica and I wondered aloud how soon it would be before DMX would have rebates on them and start bending over backwards to get rid of them.

    Well, todays AutomotiveNews reports $3,000 incentive on Pacificas.

    Not that this is a luxury marque, I just know that they have come up in earlier conversations.
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    Though traditionally taking a backseat to BMW and MB the new A8 may be groundbreaking. I've owned BMW's, MB's, Porsches and most recently an A6 4.2. This new A8 seems better and cheaper than the 745 or S series. Maybe BMW and MB have been sitting on their laurels for too long. It seems that the racing technology Audi developed in the last few years is trickling down the production line. Interestingly one of my German engineer friends suggested that Audi is the place to be these days and that BMW and MB have the reputation of being a little old school.
  • i_drivei_drive Member Posts: 35
    you know what? i completely agree with you. having driven the all new A8L several times, i have concluded that the Audi excells in performance, luxury, styling, quality, workmanship, and technology. if possible, i would rewind back in time and purchase an A8L instead of the S430.

    speaking of mercedes, i had the opportunity to test-drive the 2004 S430 and S500 with the 7G-TRONIC transmission. all i can say is "WOW." this is something to be marveled at. at first, i thought "well what could be the difference?" but believe me, it was so smooth that in my opinion, it is superior to that of the Lexus LS430 transmission (which is already the smoothest one I have ever seen) one of the things that I loathe about my '02 S430 is the 5-speed automatic, which I find extremely jerky.

    also new for 2004: it looks like Mercedes has replaced the a MERCEDES-BENZ product sticker on the lower right corner of the windshield with a new one, which looks much more modern (21st century), while retaining the "y Daimler" signature. a very small detail but I'm obsessed with the small details. ;-)

    also, I saw the new Maybach "50-something on the showroom. looks very impressive, and the price tag was over $350,000. i asked how many they've sold to date: 2.

    something quite amusing that i feel i must add: after test-driving the S500, i sat in a new 2004 E500 wagon. but after asking where was the third-row seat in the back, she said: "you know what? Mercedes forgot add the third row seat in the first 715 E-class wagons! when the people at the port opened the rear door, they couldn't find the rear seats!" so there is no third row seat and instead, mercedes supplied a black plastic crate (seriously resembling those pre-school milk-carts). i don't know how you could sit in those things (they look SO uncomfortable and small; i asume that only one person can sit in it).

    for some reason, I can only imagine Mercedes for doing something like this. i guess when the seats come in, the owners have to bring their new car back in to install them?

    and finally, after thinking it over, I have decided to keep my '02 S430 until next year when the new 2005 S-Class comes out. i just signed up on the wait list. can't wait to come out, but unfortunately, it looks like the S430 won't come back...
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    Thanks for the input. I would love to buy or lease a Mercedes, especially one of the upcoming 2005 models but I need something sooner. I've gone through an interesting evolution when it comes to cars. What I have concluded is that you can't make a car that is everything to everybody. That is to say in my experience you can't make a full size sedan that offers the excitement of an all out sportscar. No matter how fast an E55 AMG is it won't provide the thrill I get driving my 996 C4S. By the same token a Porsche Cayenne can't duplicate the utility, towing capacity and payload of my GMC Yukon XL. So the question is for the money what is the best full size luxury "uber" sedan? Before you answer the LS 430 realize that I am biased towards German auto's( nobody's perfect ). Also it doesn't need to out accelerate my porsche in a straight line.
  • jgraveljgravel Member Posts: 54
    I've been looking for a 2001 740iL recently. I figured the final year of a model series should be fairly solid. Should I be looking at other cars as well? I've owned BMW's for awhile so I'm leaning that way but I don't want to pass up an opportunity if one exists.

    Thanks,

    -jay
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    I know it's not a German import, but have you checked out the new Jag. XJ-R?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    It's just my opinion but I think you would do yourself a disservice if you did not at least drive other luxury models....

    If you want a drivers car maybe you would want to try a Mercedes S class in addition to the 740iL If you want dependability and all out luxury maybe a Lexus LS430.

    There are other cars out there worth driving.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    The A8L is a great car, but it has gotten a lot of mixed reviews. Some reviewers and posters have mentioned a choppy ride, among other critiques. However, after several of my own test drives, I never understood those criticisms.

    Although, I am not sure about Ksurg's mention of the "cheaper" price issue, because the A8L with convenience package and wheel options will be in the $74,000 range, which puts it in the same range as an S430 or 7 series.

    I was very close to buying an A8L before getting my new XJR. I really liked the A8L. As I mentioned a while back in this forum, I think it is one of the ultimate luxury cruisers. It is spacious, well built, and it oozes quality.

    So, why did I not get an A8L..? Well, for me the A8L felt just a bit too large, and it was not quite as sporting and quick as the XJR. That is not a negative comment. For somebody that wants a big luxury/sport cruiser with a limousine-like accomodations, the A8L is my choice.

    I have mentioned my feelings about the '04 XJR earlier, so I will not tout it again. Let it suffice to say that I find it a perfect balance between luxury and high performance at its price.
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    I'm not sure that everyone is on the same page here. The 2004 A8 is a completely redesigned vehicle. I have yet to read any negative reviews. In European Car comment was made about undulations on choppy roads due to a long wheelbase but that same article rated it's ride superior to it's 745i and S500 cousins. As for price it is cheaper...look at comparisons here on Edmunds and keep in mind the options it comes with as well as the fact that it has standard all wheel drive. Lastly, it does look big but it is within an inch in length of the 745iL and the S500( interestingly there is a 4" discrepancy in width between published spec's and those here at Edmunds).

    As for the 2004 XJR, I haven't seen it yet. Maybe I'll check it out!
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I know what page you are on. I am talking about the new '04 version. It has been discussed here previously.

    You need to read back through the older posts on this board to see some of the comments.

    I found this a link to the Car and Driver review of the '04 A8L this past August, which said: "It's a stiff ride for such a lavish luxury liner, but one that doesn't come with terrific body control. The A8 actually shivers side to side as the car clomps over broken pavement, a slightly more disconcerting feeling in a new $74,090 German autobahn inhaler than in, say, the 1953 Ford Mainline we recently drove across Mexico."

    I think that a few other Edmunds posters made the same comments in July after the car first came out. It may have been a problem with early production cars. I know that I did not find those ride issues to be present when I drove the A8L, but I thought that I would share the informantion anyway. (I was thinking that the car may ride rougher with the optional 19" wheels that they had on the test car).

    The only version of the new A8 that is being imported to the U.S is the A8L. This is the long wheelbase version.. I drove it after driving the XJR and BMW 745, and it did feel bigger to me. It is the ultimate large grand tourer. Drive the car and see what you think. If you often carry four or more in your car, you will appreciate the commodious back seat area too.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I've been seeing a lot of posts saying Audi has good quality and I would totally disagree. I don't mean for this to be a "I know someone..." post, but I do know a lot of people that have had major quality issues with Audi.

    One person in my office has an A6 that, after a few months of ownership, lost all interior and exterior lights. She was about 75 miles from home and called Audi roadside assistance. They said since the car could be driven they would not send help, so she drove 75 miles in the dark just to get home.

    Another person in my office also has had numerous electrical problems with her Audi. Too many to even list here, but it's been one thing after another. One odd item was the car just died once while she was driving it on a highway. The car was in for service for a week before the dealer discovered a problem with the temp sensor. The car thought it was 50 below outside and shut the car down. To make things worse, the dealer rented her a Chevy Cavalier from Enterprise because they offer no loaners.

    You can also check out some guy in the A6 forum who had his A6 bought back because of the many problems.

    Factor in the poor resale value and I could not imagine spending $70,000+ on a car no matter how nice it may be. A comparison article in a magazine does not give a true ownership experience.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I am one that found the Audi A8L ride rather harsh and uneven and it was on the standard tires. I test drove it a while back so DonnFenn may be right that it is an early production problem. I am quite familiar with the old A8L as well, having driven and ridden in it often. I never felt that its' ride approached the refinement of the S-class or LS430. What I found disappointing was the new car ride was even less refined than the prior model. But I found the handling on the new A8 to be excellent (better than before)and the interior was well crafted and definitely had high-end materials. I would rate the interior more in line with Lexus and Jaguar and above the MB S-class. It is unquestionably spacious and luxurious and a nice place to live in.

    My old office had a lot of Audi buyers, particularly the A4 and A6 and people often had problems, some pretty serious including tranny related problems, with the cars. But many people were quite loyal to Audi and the main reasons were the sportier handling and the AWD offered in all models. This is the Northeast and there has been an awful lot of snow lately so AWD is highly valued. What is interesting is a few Audi owners had Toyota and Lexus suv's in their garages and in the big rain and snowstorms they showed up with them and left the car at home for their spouse.

    DonnFenn - I spotted a Q45 driving around a local strip mall the other day. It was in a dark burgundy color and I did a double take on it as the car seemed perfectly made for that color. Then the guy pulled right along side me and for the first time I realized that the Q's engine is as quiet as an LS430. I asked the guy how he liked it and he said he loved it.
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    Thanks for your comments. We all have our biases. I suppose I know people who have had problems with just about every marque, with the notable exception of Lexus. Service in California tends to be better with Lexus and Infinity. However, I've recently been impressed by my local Porsche-Audi dealership. By contrast getting service from BMW and MB has been painful. I'm sure that is influencing my opinions. At least if you have a problem you know it can be worked out. Finally, we could probably find articles to support each of our points of view. Maybe this speaks to reviewer bias or the fact that these are all great cars and we're spoiled. I don't know. By the way have you ever liked a car on a test drive and on driving the vehicle again felt differently?
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    "I suppose I know people who have had problems with just about every marque, with the notable exception of Lexus..."

    As an LS owner, I say AMEN to that :) So why not just buy an LS430 and be done with it? Aren't your time worth a lot to you if you are a lux/super lux car owner ? Mine certainly is, hence I can live with so-so styling for peace of mind, reliability and second-to-none customer service.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Just a little ahead there....there won't be a new S-Class for the 05' model year. It's not scheduled to be shown until the Frankfurt autoshow of 2005, which means a spring 2006 debut here. It could debute at the Geneva show next spring, but I seriously doubt that. There won't be a "S430" or "S500" either, there will be all new direct-injection engines of different displacements. Now Mercedes might ignore the actual engine's displacement and badge the upper V8 S as a "500" model because of the equity in that designation.

    lenscap,

    Ahh...what you're describing is the difference between reliability and build quality. Audi does make the best interiors of the German makes, and arguably the industry. Their cars are heavy, solid and generally very robust in their construction, but their "guts" just don't hold up as well as a BMW or Mercedes. The old A8 and current A6 4.2 basically use the same drivetrain and they are notorious for dropping transmissions. I've seen these range anywhere from 5-14K replace! It should be interesting to see the new A8's showing in this area since Audi switched to a totally new ZF 6-speed auto for the 2004 model. This is the same trans that Jaguar (XK,XJ,S-Type), BMW (5, 6 and 7-Series), VW (Touareg) and Rolls-Royce (Phantom) use.

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    A guy on another board has had a horrible time with his '03, so much so that Audi is buying it back after $20K in repairs. Ouch!

    Read for yourself

    kwarnold "Real-World Trade-In Values" Oct 20, 2003 10:23pm

    Heavy, solid, and generally very robust build, eh ? Are you sure about that Merc1 ?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Re-read the previous post. You missed the point (the difference between build quality and reliability) just that fast.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I understand that a new replacement 5/6 speed transmisssion for an Audi A4 is $10,000!!!
    That will get anybody's attention.

    Audi A8's ride quality is hampered by the couple of hundred extra pounds sitting over the front tires.

    It will never ride as well as a Lexus/Jag/Merecedes. And I am sure when they go AWD there will be similiar comments about ride quality.

    Lexus's can and do have problems that can be quite expensive to repair.
    They just thave fewer probs than the others.
    New A/C $2500-3000.
    Faded instrument panel/climate control/radio LCD's
    $3-400 for each item. $1000s if taken to the dealer.
    Suspension parts are expensive, shocks,tie rods, etc. etc.
    90K service with timing belt, water pump, valves,
    belts $1500.

    This is opposed to a BMW which is $3-400 Every time it goes in for anything.

    I would never let a BMW/Mercedes get out of warranty. A Lexus out of warranty doesn't scare me.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The S-Class is already available with AWD and there haven't been any complaints about it's ride quality. By all accounts it rides and handles just like the regular S-Class. And I know Lexus isn't going to give up the ride quality their buyers so love just for awd.

    My guess would be that Audi tuned the A8's suspension for sportiness and the nervous ride is just a result of this, especially with the 19' wheels. Being awd has nothing to do with it. Wasn't Car and Driver's car suffering from a computer glitch concerning the suspension? Others like Motor Trend and Automobile haven't found fault with it's ride.

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

    b4z,
     Keep in mind the majority of those repairs come well after 100K miles. I did have the rear shocks replaced on my 92 LS b/c I was getting annoyed with the soft ride. Cost: $325 at the Lexus dealer. The shocks themselves were only $65 each. Even the LCD displays are only $400 at the dealer. I pretty much agree with everything you said, just wanted to highlight that those costs are even lower based on my own experience.

    bmwseller
    I think b4z said 3-400, as in Hundred. You're not going to win the reliability debate. A Lexus trumps anything in long term reliablilty costs. It's how Lexus sell cars while BMW probably uses Sportiness to sell theirs.

    I'm not saying BMW is a poorly built car, but in the Long Run a LS car will be better in that regard.

    Merc,
    In your opinion, what is Build Quality vs Reliablity? Are they mutually exclusive?

    SV
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    OK guys I tried to do my homework. It is very curious that Car and Driver was the only mag to seriously criticize the A8L. I did an extensive literature search to see if there were any trends in regard to ride quality or other issues. Though many commented on the weight of the A8L and some visual obscuration from the rear headrests the reviews were glowing. As for refinement I find driving a LS430 equivalent to 10mg of ambien and the S500 like watching a rerun documentary. I suspect some of you believe if you can feel the road the ride is not refined. I enjoy driving and don't want to feel like I'm sitting in a sofa in my living room. So I wouldn't presume that isolated is synonymous with refined. In the end it is a matter of taste but for those of us who drive aggressively the LS430 and S500 are neither more refined nor appealing.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "In your opinion, what is Build Quality vs Reliablity? Are they mutually exclusive?"

    The short answer is no they aren't mutually exclusive. Lexus blends them very well, on the whole probably better than anyone else. I'm just guessing here, but I think you knew this, but wanted me to admit that? Anyway...with Audi they are exclusive traits. When you open the door of a A8, A6 or A4 you feel the heft, when you sit down your senses are delighted by the sheer quality of the interior plastics, wood, chrome, aluminum and the way it all all assembled. The A4 Cabriolet is stunning this reguard, try one out. The convertible top and it's folding structure are overbuilt. Look at the trunk hinges on the upcoming VW Phaeton, overbuilt and really not necessary, but they scream quality.

    You'd think an Audi would be very reliable too, considering the last forever "feel" of their cars. Audi has more problem than either Mercedes or BMW, and gulp(!) admittedly more serious ones at that (trans, engine etc). So really the answer to the question depends on the brand being discussed.

    Mercedes for example used to be the standard in build before they starting cutting cost. Mercedes' problem is that when they used to insist on overbuilding their cars they really didn't have much competition, yet when they decided to downgrade their interior fittings, the Japanese appeared and BMW, Audi, and all the rest got much better at it. The funny thing is that Audi and Mercedes use the same (French) supplier for the S-Class and the A8, but Audi pays for higher specification, thus VW's thinner profit margins. Mercedes specifies thicker gauge steel and sheet metal (Volvo does too) for safety purposes, magnesium seat frames and so on..all costing...while not really noticeable by the average buyers, unless you get into an accident.....while using lesser grade materials for things that didn't relate to safety. This is most easily seen in the 1999 S-Class compared to the 2000 S-Class.

    The British and German press continue to insist that Mercedes is going old-school with build quality, and focusing more heavily on reliability with the next S-Class, but for a price. There was a tear down study done about a year ago comparing newer Mercedes' with older ones. Surprisingly they found that the newer cars structure/chassis was just as robust as the older cars, but the decontenting mainly came in the areas of interior panel thickness, plastics for just about everything and seat frames. Interesting indeed. All car companies decontent in some way or another, but they do it differently. Toyota does it where you can't see it and where the average car buyer is not likely to care. Or in other words where its not likely to show up.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Best business post I've ever seen you make and NOT because of the Lexus comment. I must be getting to you.

    The Audi folks in my office had a number of tranny problems and a business associate of mine just had his transmission go on his Jag at 58k miles - one year out of warranty. These things can be very expensive. Cost on the Jag - just for the transmission before labor - $9,500. Ouch. But - he complained to Jaguar and after a few go rounds they admitted they had a number of problems with their transmissions and agreed to provide the transmission free if he picked up the labor costs. That was classy and a lot better service than Audi provided to the folks in my office.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    Ksurg: I really like the Audi, but I found it interesting that you are wanting to make the A8L into more of an envigorating sports sedan than it really is....

    In my own test driving experience the A8L felt like a great luxury sedan. It was a really "nice ride"-- but it was not particularly fast, sporty, or lithe. Despite Car and Driver, I did not have any complaints about the ride, but I found it almost sedate until pushed it hard in the "dynamic" suspension mode.

    I am not an active member of the Lexus fan club, but I imagine that the new '04 Lexus LS 430 is actually quicker in acceleration, and may even equal or exceed the A8L in handling, with the optional handling package.

    During my own recent car shopping experience, I also drove the MB S500 (your "rerun documentary")and found that it's powertrain and acceleration was pretty spunky compared to the A8L. So in my book, as nice as it is, the Audi is just as much of a sedate luxury cruiser as the Lexus or Mercedes.

    That said, I still am an admirer of the big Audi, and was almost going to buy one......

    (None of this should be considered as negative commentary since we are talking about big luxury cars here)
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