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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    #3373 of 3378 Motor Trend by b4z Nov 03, 2003
    :Just voted the VW Toureg SUV of the year over the Cadillac SRX, Lexus , etc.

    And, Car and Driver had the Toureg in last place in it's SUV test....

    SO, what else is new?
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    I too just got may latest C&D, amazed to see the S430 finish dead last and the Jag and Lexus at top. Agreed the S430 was way overpriced at 89k, however at that price it's still a better deal than a 70k VW! I saw a Phaeton on Michigan Ave in Chicago Sunday AM. Had to double take to make sure it wasn't a Passat. For the VW, it boils down to the ownership experience and dealer service, neither of which VW excels at. How do you think a Phaeton owner is going to feel when he/she brings a 70k machine in and drives out in a loaner Jetta? Or worse, an Enterprise beater? Beth very likely as I can't see VW dealers making the investment in a large fleet of even Passat's. I owned a GTI VR6 a few years ago, great car but the dealers in Atlanta were a nightmare. Make an appointment for an oil change and leave the car for the day. No thanks!

    I love to drive and 75% of the ownership equation is how the car performs, drives and handles. However, it's not a museum piece, I need it to function (well) every day, not cost a fortune to maintain, have dealers that actually care about repeat clientele and be worth something 3-4 years and 80k miles later. From my experience, that pretty much eliminates the VW, Audi and Jaguar from my consideration, although Jag's definitely seem to be rising in reliability and resale.

    Regarding merc1's comments about Lexus being a "created" name, exactly! It may not have meant anything day one in the USA, but it didn't have any baggage associated with it either. The VW name however, recalls everything from the "Peoples Car" mantra of the early Bug, through the "ugly is Pretty" campaigns of the mid-60's. Add in the baby boomer experiences with the engineering masterpieces like the 1st and 2nd generation Rabbit, the Dasher, and the other assorted VW misfits before the took a serious approach to the US market and you end up with a lot of folks who are skeptical of VW moving upmarket from economical family transportation with a Euro bent. From the inventories of Touraeg's on the Atlanta dealers lots, I'd say they're not blowing out the door either. BMW's probably done the best job of moving their brand image upmarket. In the early '70's, a 2002 could be had for 3K. Even the first 5 series car in the late 70's was well under 10k. BMW created that image on the performance reputation their product always had, adding luxury and room onto the rep as they're product line grew. Never did they stray from performance as the main selling feature of their product, however.

    Good luck to VW and their dealers in moving Phaeton's, from the way they were discounting w8 Passats however, I wouldn't be surprised to see Phaeton's advertised at 10k off sticker in the near future.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Amazing, you never get the point here. Nobody is debating which car is most or least likely to have problems. Everything is a reliability chant. The point is that none of these cars are cheap to own once they age. If you think that a Lexus won't ever have any problems no matter what the mileage, and that when or if they do they're going to be dirt cheap to fix, you're not dealing in reality. The evidence is represented right here on these boards, from owners of older Lexi.
    We already know which car is the JDP star.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't know if you guys read Sports Car International, but you should check it out. It and Automobile arrived today, still no Car and Driver. Anyway SCI has the AMG CL65, Porsche Carrera GT, Audi RS6 vs. AMG E55, Bentley Continental GT, Ford GT, Cadillac CTS-V, SL600, and Porsche 911 TT Cabrio. Does this issue qualify as "high-end" or what?

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    For my own info I went to autosite.com and got sales figures through September 2003.
    For cars that have such an impact with the public they are produced and bought in very low numbers.

    YTD thru September 2003 vs. 2002

    MB S-Class:
    YTD 2003 15,981
    YTD 2002 14,534

    Even with all the complaining about MB quality, sales are up.

    BMW 7 Series
    YTD 2003 14,410
    YTD 2002 16,296

    BMW has a problem on their hands. New model ands sales are DOWN.

    Lexus LS
    YTD 2003 15,583
    YTD 2002 19,909

    Lexus updated the LS just in time. '03 sales were way down. No '04s are in these numbers.

    To put things in perspective, the E-class sold 15k more in the first 9 months than last year's 2002 model.
    Electrical gremlins have not hurt sales of that car at all.

    I guess world wide sales allow these luxury cars to be profitable.
    Probably the reason Cadillac is exploring sales in Asia and Europe.
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    I have received an Enterprise beater when I took my S 500 in for service. I think VW will have to have special service arrangements for the Phaeton buyers. There are only going to be limited VW dealers who will be allowed to sell and service them (I believe the # now is 200).
    I still haven't gotten my Car and Driver yet either (Ca). I wonder why they they didn't test the XJR. The price(approx. $74,000) is in the same range as for a loaded LS430 and much less than the S430.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'll take the $500k Lamborghini I saw in C&D's photos of the Frankfurt show.

    Now you got your Automobile before me so the geography somehow balances thess things out.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Interesting sales chart.

    The local newspaper reviews I quoted earlier also noted the slowed LS sales for the 2003 model year, and suggested that as the reason Toyota/Lexus had to make such vast improvement to the '04 model. The review was titled: "Wake-up call". To drive the point home, the reviewer quoted an Acura exec's response on "... why so much high-end content was been made standard on a new model". The reply: "To keep the brand alive"

    My opinion on Merc's electrical gremlins not having any noticeable effect on sales is that since the first 4 years of service are covered by Mercedes, new buyers don't have to worry that much. Only those buying 3+ yr old CPO's have to worry about the car's reliability concerns.

    ljflx:

    I don't subscribe to these mags, but will like to read what the reviews of the high end cars in the SCI and Automotive mags were.
  • blockislandguyblockislandguy Member Posts: 336
    MotownUSA, yes, the Aston Martin V12 is based on two Ford V8 blocks bolted together end to end with, naturally a longer crankshaft. This is not a new idea and has been used for year by Cummins Engines (the 855 becomse the 1710), Detroit Diesel (the 6V71 becomes the 12V71 found in most shrimp boats), etc. In no way though is the Aston Martin using the Ford engine internals, just the bare block architechture.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thats a Lamborghini Murcielago prepared for racing! That will be little much on the streets don't you think? Speaking of which, Auto, Motor und Sport TV had a three-way shootout tonight. They tested the Enzo, Carrera GT and the Gallardo. Such an awesome group of cars. The Carrera GT was truly the star of the show.
    ______

    Sales. I'm not sure why certain publications make so much out of a sales decline of a car (LS430) that was introduced back in 2001. The S-Class had a similar slide in 2002 before the facelifted 03' model came out. It happens to every car over it's production cycle. Intro=hot sales, few years production = sales drop, refresh = sales gain, then new model and cycle repeats. This in no way means the end of Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi or anyone else. The only time this would spell trouble is if the car in question is new and flops, like the Q45 or M45, then you have a true "situation" on your hands. That combined with no new product would spell the end of a luxury brand, but that isn't even the case with Infiniti. A new Q and M are on the way it seems.

    I will say the Europeans are a little better with keeping the variants coming over time to keep a model interesting. Seeing as how Mercedes now sells a lot of 4Matic S-Classes and VW twins have awd, I expect the next LS and even XJ to offer awd.

    Acura's situation is somewhat different as they don't truly have a flagship car. The new TL makes the RL obsolete, to put it mildly.
    They've adjusted to not selling many RLs.

    blockislandguy,

    Actually it's two Ford Duratec V6s not V8s.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Sales don't automatically go down several years after a restyle or refresh.
    Sometimes word of mouth or option bundling, incentives etc. Cause rises in production.
    Chevy Impala is selling double what it was in 2000.
    Chevy Tahoe is up over 2000 also.
    It is intersting that the LS series has seen very low price increases over the last several years.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well nothing is automatic, but that is what usually happens in this market. Incentives can change sales of a car like an Impala from month to month dramatically and very easy. Not the same market.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with Merc1 here. There is a natural cycle for sales volumes for any given model, unless the manufacturer purposely limits supply. Rather than look at how individual models are doing year to year, it is better to look at whether the overall brand is gaining or losing share within its segment (i.e., luxury or mainstream segment), since the overall brand will have models at varying parts of their lifecycles.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I wonder if they'll actually do this as more than a one-off? http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=623&nl=y
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    I agree with the above posts that it's customary for models to decline in sales as they age and are no longer the "hot" new thing. The reference to Impala and Tahoe sales being stronger in 2003 than in '00/'01 is diluted because of the ridiculous incentives being offered to move the iron. When a manufacturer is offering rebates and incentives than enable you to buy a vehicle for 20-30% off of the sticker, they're really cannibalizing the value of the earlier models. A loaded 2000 Tahoe LT 4wd would have had a sticker of about 42k, if you were a good negotiator, you'd have bought the truck for about 37k. When you can buy a '03 with a sticker of 44k for 34-35k, that further impacts the resale value of the previous model years. It also reduces the residual values of lease vehicles, resulting in higher monthly cost.

    I'm very glad that most high end marques have avoided the incentive game, especially the factory to consumer type. That and the limited supply (no fleet sales to Hertz, Avis) accounts for the considerably better resale values of not only the high-end cars, but also the mainstream products like the Honda Accord that avoid propping up their sales figures.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Gm's ridiculous incentives are reflective in their MSRP's.
    Did you guys know that GM had 20 price increases last year!!!!
    Did you know that the Impala's MSRP has gone up over $1000 every year.

    While the Lexus LS's has gone up about $500.

    Yes GM has been offfering 3-4K incentives but my 25.5K 2001 Impala LS now costs almost 29K!!!
    Hardly a bargain.
    You would have been hard pressed to get a 2000 Tahoe for much off of MSRP.
    Now 7-8K off is not uncommon.

    Luckily the high end market has avoided this by offering value and superior build quality.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    And I forgot to mention the decontenting that is going on at GM right now.

    Lets see. We will raise the price and make Onstar optional, and the side airbag. We'll take the gearshift indicator off the console, trunk net, floor mats, coin holder, etc. etc.
  • sysadbsysadb Member Posts: 83
    The 2003 number is down, but 2002 was the first year of the current model. If I recall the 2002 sales almost doubled the 2001 sales of the previous generation. Despite some complaints, the car has clearly been a success sales-wise, as it is now selling in volume comparable to the s-class and LS.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Yeah - I knew it was for racing but it is beautiful.

    sales - you know I went into my Lexus dealer in early September and there wasn't an LS in sight save for older ones that were being sold as certified cars. They had sold out their LS allotment and were waiting on the 2004's for which they had a lot of advanced orders. So here is a big volume guy with no cars to sell for nearly a month. The reason was supposedly the factory had cut over to the new model and had stopped production on the 2003's. So the natural result is lower sales. It also seems the entire market is down slightly and this is the result of the economy. So I also don't put much stock in the sales figures for 2003 ytd. Lexus goal for the LS has always been 20-25k in sales with the higher figure in the initial year or two of production. They happened to hit north of 30k in the 2001 model year which surprised them but they had only sold around 14k cars in the 2000 model year - the last year of the LS400. Likewise the E is having great sales because of its new model year. That plus the fact that the last model year has a naturally lower production count as the factory switches over, leads always to a larger percentage gain just based on units produced. In addition the gain is overstated as buyers hold off on the old and wait for the new.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    i agree.
  • jamiem4jamiem4 Member Posts: 23
    Just curious if anyone thinks a dealer should negotiate a 2003 S500 w/sports package? Our local dealer gave us a real hard time (we were going to write a 88K check) so we walked out (when the GM leaned across the desk at my husband as if we were deaf shouting: "Where did you get THAT number from?". Were we that unreasonable (large MB dealership in Cary, NC)? Driving home and laughing a lot (I suppose if you wear jeans they think you are really dumb) we decided the car really wasn't worth the ~90+k (with taxes etc). Any thoughts? We're still looking to trade our 2001 750il or get something comparable to keep the miles lower on the BMW. Thanks!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I have posted before, www.autonation.com. No, I don't work for them (or own their stock). I also have never shopped there, since I haven't bought a vehicle since early 2000. But they are the largest US autodealer, with a number of MB locations (from which you could truck in a car), and best of all their entire inventory is online, complete with VIN numbers...apparently you just email them about one of their cars and they email you back with a 'no haggle' price. Could be a useful bargaining tool even if you have no intention of trucking in a car from FL or wherever.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    I'd be glad to rid you of that pesky $88K check, lol ! :)

    Wow ! A dealer won't take your $88K check of REAL money !!! That is unbelievable to me, since only an infinitesimal few buyers ever write the full check of their car purchase. There has to be other Merc dealers who'd treat you better and make you feel like a king or queen with that amount of purchase. Shop around.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    It is amazing some people stay in business.

    Just for fun you might try driving the Jag and LS 430 (Ultra) and the big Audi.
  • bmwwifebmwwife Member Posts: 29
    Lots of premium car buyers are check writer's. Furthermore, it's all cash to the dealer. They don't carry their own paper unless it's a buy here pay here lot. Not too many of those stock 88,000 dollar cars.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Floorplan on a 90K MB must eat up a lot of profit.
  • lehighlexuslehighlexus Member Posts: 94
    is correct. The bank is the one who is on the hook for the money if someone doesn't pay their monthly bill. The way they see it is if you don't buy that car for $90k, someone will. And because they are not bogged down by them. But why the Mercedes? Believe them or not, Consumer Reports just rated ALL Mercedes, Jaguar, and Audi below average in reliability. If you buy one of these, make sure you are comfortable driving whatever loaner car they provide you with because you'll be seeing alot of it. (Jaguar gives nissan altimas, hyundai sonatas, etc.)
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    Luxury car buyers are an "infinitesimal" proportion of ALL car buyers.... MOST cars are financed or leased out of dealerships.

    My point is that it is far cleaner to write up a deal on CASH purchase than the long drwan out bank/dealer finance paperwork. Can't understand why a dealership would pass that up even if it means a few pennies of lost profit. Isn't the less paperwork appealing enough in losing a lousy penny of profit ? I guess not !
  • dhanderdhander Member Posts: 41
    Not when interest rates are this low. You would have to be a fool to pass up the 3-5% rates when you can outperform that with poor investing skills...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What was the sticker price of the car? Given it was a 2003 I would think you would get a decent discount. In NJ there were plenty of 2004 S-500 sport models and S55's advertised in the Sunday NY Times - so any dealer should want to get rid of a 2003 at the drop of a hat. By the way - just my 2 cents - but $88k for that car at this point in time is a rip off. The dealer may have done you a big favor.

    For the board - I don't want to go back there but all those cars that our friend Boo20 said were impossible to get and required as much as a 6-18 month wait were on the list in multiples. But this time they had 2004 in front of them. Again - the list was a 10% representation of all cars available.
  • jamiem4jamiem4 Member Posts: 23
    Thanks for all the responses. The sticker price was around 98k. It had the sports package, keyless go, etc but no phone. We would've paid an extra 2K for that. All in all we were so glad when the GM did his thing that they said 'no' because it seems like it would've been a waste of $$. They did call us back a total of 6 times to close the deal at our price but my husband said 'no.' I think we buy our cars so we simply don't carry depreciating debt although 4% money is a great rate and "poor" very-conservative investments should make 10-12%. My husband likes a good engine for around 100K in a new car and to him the 2001 is no longer new. I'm just curious why we had that reaction from the dealership. It reminded me of when (over 20yrs ago) I bought my first Honda and the salespeople did that thing with writing down a price on a piece of paper with that vertical line. Then the $$ man would walk over to close the deal. Haven't we progressed passed that? Well, we are in NC! It was fun actually - but a bit of a throwback to the 80's. I think we are back to those i-drive BMWs....I'm sure we'll see more of the loaner than the car! JA
  • anthonycecilanthonycecil Member Posts: 68
    When my wife and I went in to purchase a clk this last spring, we had a similar experience here in Charleston S.C. They wrote down the number, and we then wrote down our number. After several hours, I believe we got about a thousand off. It really was not worth the thousand dollars, but was worth getting the car at a discount. Amusingly when the closer came over, he used a small calculator and after putting several numbers in, wrote down what he thought was a correct offer.. After thinking about it far a few seconds and being close to exhaustion, I accepted, signed my name , he had already signed his, and then I mentally added the numbers up and there was a three hundred dollar error(to my favor) He then actually beggeg for me to split the difference with him, after we had already shook hands and everything.. I told him I woould let him out of the deal, but after I shook hands on something that was final with me. We left shortly after that with the new car, top down, and so far my wife has had no problems.. I might further add that our own` Merc` of Mercedes fame influnced me to at least keep Mercedes on the list. I find any dealings to be troubling with the dealership, as they , in the past, act as though they are doing you a favor to sell you a car.. Unfortunately Lexis is trying to copy them in they to are acting as though there is a scarcity of cars. I am going to fool both of them and let them know there is a scarcity of dollars. They`l just say they won`t build a car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sales trends - I agree completely. It's a up and down thing. If you look at it the S-Class should dive this year, with a new A8, Phaeton and XJ, plus the revised LS, and the still somewhat new 7-Series on hand. Mercedes' marketing maching is so well-oiled though and they gave the S a new trans and 4Matic to keep things fresh until that faithful day in 2005 when it all starts over again.

    I finally got to read that C&D comparo. The S430 they used must have had ABC also, another pricey, seldom-ordered S430 option. I say this because on the spec page they list all the others, except the 745i and S430 as having air springs. They list hydraulic springs for the S430, it must have been a ABC equipped car. No wonder the car cleaned up in the chassis deptartment, but had a eye-popping price. I still don't see how the Phaeton beat the S430 though with all the little niggles they complained about. A similarly priced S500 Sport I think would at least beat the Phaeton and A8. Reading this test underlines where the editors were in terms of preference this time around, ride comfort and features. The three of the four German cars that had athletic handling (S430,745i,A8) and provided more "fun" in their driving experience didn't dominate this time around. Interesting. There has never been a Jaguar XJ in any other place than last before now. What a triumph for Jaguar. Another note of interest, the complaints about the Phaeton and A8's body shake and quivering over bumps. VW has stated that Phaeton is easily the world's most solid and rigid car. I wonder what happened?

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    I think a part of you want the Phaeton to succeed, but that part is wishful thought, imo. VW has nothing, and I mean nothing, to back up the Phaeton. Don't tell me they have the Touareg ! An SUV and a large sedan does not a luxury marque make, lol !! When Toyota came up with the Lexus brand in 1989, they at least had their rock solid reputation for quality and reliablity to back up their new launch. But what does VW have to back-up their luxury car branding ?? Nothing. That's why I suggested VW execs must be smokin' something. IMO, the VW Phaeton ain't going anywhere but the dust. No way Jose, as we say it here in California.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mostly you're right. I would like to see the car be a hit, but the real problem isn't even VW's other products, its their dealers and from what I'm reading in the Phaeton topic, there isn't going to be much advertising for the car. Doesn't make any sense. Product wasn't Lexus' strong point either in 1990, the LS was their only true luxury car. The ES250 surely wasn't. The T-reg and the Phaeton doesn't make a luxury brand correct, but it does help people get over the shock a big bucks VW.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Let me guess. Baker MB, Land Rover, Infiniti, Porsche?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mercedes alive and very well:

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2031104.003/mercedes- - -benz/1.html

    Of particular note: S-Class and SL-Class sales for Oct 03' vs Oct 02' are way up.

    BMW:

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2031104.004/bmw/1.ht- - ml

    Of particular note: Sales gains are built mainly on the 5-Series and Z4.

    No info on Lexus, Audi or Jaguar for Oct yet, or at least I couldn't find it.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus ain't doing too bad either: "The Lexus Division enjoyed best-ever October sales of 22,465, an increase of 40.1 percent. Lexus passenger car sales stood at 11,400, an increase of 10.0 percent." Lexus SUVs up 95% yty in Oct. http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =20031103d

    However, I don't think we should read too much into one month.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You know my personal feelings on this stuff. I just drove the new A8L and I'd much prefer the S-class (even with 5 speed) over it though it would be an S500. I'd rate the LS first by a whisker over an S500 based on my preferences and I'm using my 5 speed experience on that scoring. But I do wish Mercedes would improve the interior along the lines of the A8. The Audi, the Jag and the Lexus have stunning interiors. I actually think the 7 has the worst interior. It's just to much of a business club. I haven't driven the Jag and I must say after reading the story I am curious to do so.

    I'm also at a loss as to how the S430 scored so low. To me the embodiment of the S-class is always the S500 so I also think they used the weong car. This is another reason why I don't put much reliance on the actual copmparisons. But the individual comments about the cars themselves are noteworthy.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    The Car & Driver article made me think about a similar comparison C&D did exactly 14 years ago in the December 1989 issue. I have a reprint of that article and thought you'd be interested to see the results.

    December 1989
    (Ranking, car, tested price, engine, hp, 0-60 time)
    1. Lexus LS 400, $42,650, V8, 250, 8.6
    2. Infiniti Q45, $38,350, V8, 278, 7.9
    3. Audi V8 Quattro, $49,435, V8, 240, 10.2
    4. BMW 735i, $55,140, I6, 208, 10.3
    5(T). Jaguar Sovereign, $43,500, I6, 220, 9.6
    5(T). Mercedes 420SEL, $62,600, V8, 201, 9.3
    6. Cadillac STS, $36,870, V8, 180, 9.2
  • jhdevoyjhdevoy Member Posts: 33
    Every website I visit, including Jaguar's own website and various leasing websites, uses a residual value of about 47% in lease calculations for the Jaguar XJR. These same sites have more realistic (and much higher) residuals for every other luxury automobile. Is Jaguar just trying to disincent people from leasing or is this vehicle really going to depreciate this quickly??!! I am looking at 36 month 12k miles per year lease. A good BMW or Mercedes should have a residual in the low 60% area.
  • bmwwifebmwwife Member Posts: 29
    has been this route and doesn't wanting to be eating thousands at the auction on lease returns. The 47% figure is probably too high.

    It's a testament to the real value of the car. Maybe this will inspire you to consider a different make.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I saw the new Jaguar commercial on TV last night and it made me think about Jaguar's marketing strategy. The commercial said "Aluminum makes it lighter, lighter makes it faster."

    Okay, I get it. But then how do Lexus and BMW build cars that are even faster without using expensive-to-repair aluminum (according to Car & Driver)? If Lexus and BMW can do it, why can't Jaguar? Why go through all the expense of using aluminum when cars can be designed just as fast, and faster, using traditional materials?

    I just don't get the advantages of using aluminum. Perhaps Jaguar should be touting advantages other than making the car faster.

    This is in no way anything negative toward the car, but more questioning the wisdom of the marketing strategy.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Front business page of today's NY Times had in depth story on Hybrid technology based on the Tokyo auto show. Toyota is way ahead of everyone on this. In fact they are pushing through so many patents that one financial expert quoted in the article said that everyone is going to have to go through Toyota in the future. Nissan already has cut a deal with them to utilize their technolgy.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    GM is *fighting* Toyota on this fuel cell/gas-electric hybrid technology. GM believes it can produce a fuel-cell powered car by 2010, no one else believes this is remotely possible ! OTOH, Toyota already has a hybrid car by 2001. So here you have one company on a wishing campaign, and another actually delivering its promise. Hmmmmm.... If I were a betting guy, I'd put my money on Toyota cleaning up in this area. Meaning: Toyota will be the king of future technology in fueling our cars. Just imagine what that means to the automotive industry. It is a mind-boggling concept which many people have yet to comprehend the enormity of today.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I didn't get it either until syswei brought it up and I started paying attention. Maybe this, at least in part is why Toyota stock trades at so much higher a multiple than any other auto stock. Now it's already influencing my purchase decisions so that I can get at a hybrid car on the go round after this. It's amazing how little press this gets in the auto rags but in the business world this is similar to Microsoft re-stating the computer world in 1985. It is enormous and the higher gas prices go the bigger it gets.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Look at the cons to hybrids:

    1) Better gas mileage (could see 35mpg RX400H next year) The 2004 Prius is factory rated to 55mpg !

    2) Power boost, where a V6 feels and accelerates like a V8 !

    3) All of these with zero emmisions (PZEV)

    and

    4) Depending on which state you live in, you could get a tax credit or tax deduction (according to IRS) for owning one (see: fndlyfmrflyr "Toyota Prius 2004+" Oct 29, 2003 10:46pm

    More interesting read on the auto industry and hybrids is here:

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_43/b3855072.htm
  • anthonycecilanthonycecil Member Posts: 68
    You are right on Tony
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Interesting. Chrysler seems hopelessly lost. Who on earth wants a noisy Diesel. No chance. I wonder where the Europeans are on this. Gas prices in europe are triple the US so like Japan they should have started sooner rather than later. But given the Chrysler comment it would seem that Mercedes is nowhere and they are always the leader.
  • jhdevoyjhdevoy Member Posts: 33
    If any vehicle can take a run at the sub 50% three year residual, it is the new 7 series. And my last three cars have been BMWs. It is painful to look at any other make, but they really haven't given my any choice. Save your biased advice for some other sucker. There is NO CHANCE the 3 year resid on the new XJR will be less than 47%, unless someone finds away to add an aftermarket iDrive to it...
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