High End Luxury Cars

bluestar1 · November 2003

I agree 100% with you. How can the Europeans not be in the forefront here ? It is a serious omission/oversight, imo. Merc or BMW are not even a blimp on the hybrid race. Toyota got everyone beat, and it's not even close. Scary stuff !

ksurg · November 2003

No way San Jose. It seems people on this page are polarized between Japanese vs. German vehicles. At least in Northern CA VW is huge. Recently passat's and jetta's( not to mention new Beetles ) have been multiplying like rabbits(pardon the pun). If I'm not mistaken they have been well reviewed as well. Now I agree that the Phaeton seems like an odd decision for VW, it would be like a Toyota Avalon priced against a LS430. On the other hand a Toureg is a thinking mans Cayenne( see recent article in Road and Track). For all the opinions expressed on this page, imo they're strengths and weaknesses to all manufactures and models. I like the differences. Though I wish my teutonic cars had the reliabilty of Lexus I still would rather be behind the wheel of Audi, BMW, MB or Jaguar(OK so its Brit). Why...because. Not all car purchases can reduced to rational decisions and the day it does I bet driving becomes boring!

ksurg · November 2003

Wow..I just read through that page on the CTS-V vs. S4. I guess I should have said American vs.Japanese vs. German in the post above. Frankly I visit the discussions for fun not to justify my opinions. Maybe cornellpremed had a bad day or his dad owns a Caddy dealership. I'm not sure I understand build quality and reliability either I just know beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'd sure hate to have a relentlessly reliable car I didn't like. So far I've had god luck with Porsche's, Audi's and GM trucks as opposed to bad luck with BMW and Infinity. I have never found JDP surveys to be helpful.

ljflx · November 2003

I'm quite rational about my auto purchses (have been for 10+ years now) and driving is lots of fun except - when it rains or snows.

michael_mattox · November 2003

I have a brother-in-law who is a genious in fuel cell tech (has over 1/2 dozen patents and more pending) He says hydrogen cells are just not practical and may never be.

He thinks a new fuel needs to be found and some work is being done with coal that may pan out someday but doubts anything practical can be done in the next 10 years.

Personally I would think Nuclear may be a choice someday as a power source for cars.

merc1 · November 2003

Hey why are posts #3249 onward underlined and highlighted??? Anyway...

ljflx,

Let me be the first to say that I agree that Toyota is a leader in hyrbid-tech, no argument from me there. However you're knowledge of diesels seems to be of the past. They aren't anywhere near the noisy cars of the past, as most Americans have this perception. BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and other Euro makers have refined the diesel concept to the point of being nearly the same experience as gasoline car. A car like a S400 or 740d are quite remarkable. And yes before anyone from camp Lexus says it, DCX has struck a deal with Toyota also. I too will be impressed if the RX330 Hybrid works without a glitch. It does have the makings to change things dramatically. Though just like diesels I see a limited following for each. The first Prius was not without problems.

bluestar1,

You're killing me with this notion that just because the Europeans aren't first at this that somehow they've made an oversight and don't know what they're doing? Come on now thats a little bit much. They're working on hybrid tech and have been for years, just not the same kind as Toyota. Not that Toyota isn't ahead at the moment, not arguing that, but to say that the Europeans are clueless about any sort of hybrid tech is simply ridiculous.

ksurg,

Well that conversation was lacking on substance to say the least and was just too ridiculous for me.

M

merc1 · November 2003

Phaeton Pricing:

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2031010.001/page/6/v- olkswagen/1.html

Looks like a loaded W12 will go for about 92K. Well below a S600 or 760Li, but pricer than every other V8 car out there except a loaded S500.

M

syswei · November 2003

An interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal says "In 1987, 46% of what BMW considers high-end sedans were sold in Europe. Now, markets outside of Europe account for 78% of that segment. The most important market for the most expensive BMW, the 12-cylinder 760 sedan, is China"...and for MB China "We import 8,000 cars a year, and 5,000 of that 8,000 are S-Classes." So a small market for now, but an interesting tilt towards the high end.

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB106807546230842100-search,00.h- - tml?collection=wsjie%2F30day&vql_string=bmw%3Cin%3E%28article- - %2Dbody%29 (for subscribers)

syswei · November 2003

The Ford Escape will use Toyota technology too...but it will incorporate technology from the OLD Prius, while being introduced a year after the NEW Prius.

I haven't looked much into hydrogen fuel cells since it is so far away as a mass market technology, but I have a question for the board. The press sometimes calls hydrogen fuel cells "zero emissions" but doesn't it take energy/pollution to actually make the hydrogen (at the refinery or whatever), presumably by splitting water into its consituents?

BTW, bluestar I think it's unfairly generous to call hybrid "zero emissions" since it is the gas engine that charges the battery. It is of course true that overall emissions from a hybrid are lower, consistent with the MPG improvements.

bmwwife · November 2003

If you're looking for better resale then why are considering a jaguar? ALL, premium lux sedans (7 series) suffer big depreciation becasue of market forces propelled by the fact that most who want a car like that want a new one and those initial miles are expensive.
Your M3 will break the bank used. It has great resale. Plus, driving that raggedy jag is what will really break your heart.

HEY, this is a "high end luxury margue" discussion. Why all the toyota chatter?

syswei · November 2003

The Toyota chatter is about hybrid tech that will be in the Lexus lineup a year from now, and some of us think it will be a significant product differentiation for Lexus (unless, of course, everyone else licenses the tech, which could happen).

bmwwife · November 2003

I see the connection but it seems vague.

pat · November 2003

You don't have to read it if it doesn't interest you.

It is not out of place, however, for the reasons given.

michael_mattox · November 2003

My understanding is that the Hydrogen is split in the fuel cell itself and the most common way is to use a very expensive membrain. There are other ways to seperate the combustable fuel from the water but the cost of all the methods is prohibative.

I am working with the memory of an older man but I seem to recall my brother-in-law saying that hydrogen does not occure in nature by itself ...I have already gone way past my knowledge level it is my brother-in-law who is the genius

ljflx · November 2003

I'm confused about the timing of this Lexus brand name rollout in Japan. In todays world business section of the NY Times there was a story about Toyota's record breaking six months profits on the front page. There was also a large picture of a very classy looking Lexus dealership showroom with the back-end of an SC430, a side view of an LS430 next to it and an RX330 in the distsance. The Lexus L was very clearly evident on the SC430 and the caption on the picture made it clear that it was a Lexus dealership as well. But this dealership was in Tokyo. So Lexus must already be marketed in Japan or perhaps in the larger cities of Japan as its own brand - today.

syswei · November 2003

I was interested to see from the link merc1 posted http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2031104.004/bmw/1.ht- ml just how few people seem to actually buy V12s. In the BMW line, the 745 outsold the 760 by 2109 to 42 in October...a ratio of about 50:1.

ljflx · November 2003

The V-12's are very low production cars with a tiny market niche. That may well explain why Lexus is slow to enter that market. I'd probably opt for a $71k LS V-8 before I'd take an $85k+ V-12 LS myself - if one were available. I'll bet VW's V-12, if it ever makes it here doesn't even sell 10 cars a month. Even MB only sells sround 1200 or so S600's a year in the US. Dealers don't want these cars laying around so they are nearly a custom car thus the very low production. I know a guy that waited over a year for his S600. Amazingly the 1200+ S600's sold here are about 2/3rds of the volume of A8's that are sold here which just goes to show you how incredibly unpopular the A8 is in this country. A car as good as the A8 deserves to do better than it does.

syswei · November 2003

Yes, for me too, a V8 is enough, and even with hybrid I look more to the MPG improvement than the acceleration improvement. How often have I floored a sedan and wished for still more power? Not real often. These aren't sports cars and I don't race.

ksurg · November 2003

I've been reading about the new upcoming M5 which will be powered by a V-10. It seems like a lot of manufacturers are working on V-10's. With recent tuning they can put out 500-600bhp without supercharging or turbo boost. It will be interesting to see how much they will be used. Unless the transmission and suspension upgrades keep pace I can't imagine sedans that will handle that type of torque and horsepower well. To some extent the E55AMG is like that now. It is truly a rocket ship with a comfortable ride. What's scary is what happens when you push the car on twisties...basicly it's overpowered. It takes a professional to drive it aggressively with traction control off. The beauty of the class leaders so far have been that a novice can drive like a professional because of balanced design and plenty of over engineering to correct for user error. Do you think more is still better when it comes to horsepower? A year ago I would have said yes, now I don't know.

bmwwife · November 2003

is a $125 grand car. One can get a 745 well equipped for in the 70's. 760 interior is unbelievable.

tasillo · November 2003

bmwwife

The 760 interior would have to be a pretty incredible change from the 745 interior to justify the extra cash! As a 740 owner, I find the new 7 series interior to be about as unattractive as any high-end automobile interior I've ever seen! The differing shapes, textures and colors combines with the i-drive and absurd seat controls to make it unacceptable to me. Don't get me wrong, I think the new 7 series is hands down the best driving of the large luxo sedans. However, in their quest to be different and cutting edge, BMW crossed over into Avant Garde and technocratic. I love the gadgets and features all these cars offer, but it ought to look good and function well at the same time. Disappointingly, I found the new 5 series to be only marginally better, thanks to the console shifter. An X5 4.4 is my only hope if I'm to stay in the BMW family (which I would like to).

Interestingly, the new A8 interior offers all the technology the BMW does (including the mouse-type controller) but manages to look more expensive than the car is. Great ambience, texture and sense of warmth to it. I have a feeling the new A8 won't fair any better resale wise than the old one, in 2005 an A8 with decent miles may be available in the high $30's. That would be a heckuva car for the money!

C'mon BMW, give us back our "Ultimate Driving Machine" interior to go with the stunning performance.

lenscap · November 2003

I would really like to see that NY Times article. I may go to the library this weekend since they carry that newspaper.

Lexuses are not sold in Japan and won't be until July 2005. Perhaps they showed a US or European dealer and mislabeled it as being in Japan?

I'll try and check out the article this weekend.
Thanks for telling me about it.

syswei · November 2003

It is available online, registration is free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/business/worldbusiness/05hybrid- .html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1068246887-1RMIvWjpxPwLJTFVLAznJg

oac3 · November 2003

I was in Japan this June and July and saw an LS430. Yes, the car had the "L" logo. BUT, it was an imported one cos it had a left hand steering setup, rather than the right hand steering applicable to Japan. My speculation is that this car may have come from S Korea (it's only couple of hours flight from Seoul to Tokyo; or 1 hr flight from Osaka to Seoul). There are plenty of Lexuses in S Korea, and they also operate with the same steering setup as NAmerica (left hand steering).

syswei · November 2003

The correct link is http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/business/worldbusiness/06toyota- - .html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1068249888-F9wpdWr2mUCUUO4TLrQCNw

imho, it is possible that the picture is of a 'corporate' showroom that shows toyota's models worldwide, including those not offered in the Japanese market.

jamiem4 · November 2003

Tasillo & BMWwife

Hi. We are the fools who actually considered a S500 vs. BMW and were willing to give up one of the last 750il's delivered in the US (we ordered it from Germany) for a Mercedes. After driving the S500 it was pretty clear that we'll stick to BMW. Today the BMW dealership let us drive a 745 around - b/c we've hesitated to 'deal with' the i-drive. The 745 definately out-does the Mercedes. The interior is modern (we didn't/couldn't 'deal with' the i-drive but didn't have to: a lot is just voice activated...) and fun. The S500/S600 seem cramped with cheezy plastic (not anchored) controls and the rearview mirror wasn't correctly snapped together (yea - $90K). While the new 7-series body style forces you to 'never look back' the smooth drive makes up for the panic attack you experience when you think you loaded groceries in the trunk of another car.
We're not your average critics (or car fans.) My husband test drove jets at speeds we can't hear at and I designed rocket fuel(s)/engines (in 'my day'). I(we) still have to agree with BMWwife that for a sedan, BMW makes the smoothest machine in this (up to about 135k??) category although that i-drive and redesign caused us to momentarily beam over to the Mercedes dealership....

b4z · November 2003

So, that would make you a rocket scientist.

jamiem4 · November 2003

Gee-I've heard that before :-)!! I started out wanting to be the first female astronaut at NASA but mine was not a very kind era for women to gather enough points to out score the guys. Oh well - at least at my kids' school I make science day fun! We haven't driven the Lexus yet - so I haven't compared it and if it stops raining we'll hop over to the Lexus folks. Any other speedy sedan ideas are welcome (plus the aerodynamic body design helps my husband's brain align - he thinks all autos should take off at the end of an exit ramp). Thanks!

fenn · November 2003

So, the fact that they created a new state of the art aluminum platform with the new XJ is a bad thing? Your comment is the first that I have heard that is dismissive of the new aluminum structure....

The fact is that many cars are going towards aluminum. Many of the body components, like hoods, on several makes of cars are going to aluminum.

In the case of the XJ they started with a fresh slate and created a new platform and assembly system.

The weight of the new XJ makes it lighter, quicker, and it offers much better gas mileage than most other cars of its size.

Yes, I may have a vested interest as an owner of a new XJR...but my real life average fuel economy after 4500 miles is now about 17.5.......Show me another car with a V8 putting out anything close to 390 hp that offers this type of economy.

The repair cost issue is a concern. My jury is still out on this one..... However, I am told that the modular nature of the car's skin and chassis will make repairs easy, and not out of line. This remains to be seen. However, I think that they have so much invested in this new car that they will make parts and body panels affordable, or the insurance ratings will suffer and impact the XJ's viability. For what it is worth the car seems more ding resistant than my other non aluminum cars in my experience in crowded L.A. parking lots.

airmatic · November 2003

excuse me for my absence- i haven't been in such a good mood lately--
my parents, and my best friend's house (known him since we were less than 1 year old)caught on fire during the fire-storm we had here in San Diego about 2 weeks ago. burn't to the ground. my parents forunately, recovered some valuable and personal belongings (including their wedding ring and pictures of their children (and me) when we were young. although they were reconsidering about rebuilding their house, i have decided that they should just move into ours. what a shame.

unfortunately, not the same to my friends house (Jason). he lost absolutely everything, including his beloved, recently-fully-restored Mini Cooper from '67, i believe. saw pictures of the car, and his now burnt lot. it is really emotional to see.

well, my a highly special object that my parents lost during the fire was their cherished '85 Mercedes 500SL. beautiful, in perfect condition.
i have determined to replace their MB with a new SL500.

as for Jason, he lost EVERYTHING except for his family (they are safe), and clothing. they had no time to retrieve anything as they were evacuated early in the morning.
some close buddies have decided to pitch in a purchase a new 2004 Mini Cooper for him. Red in color, just like his old one.

in the meantime, i have given him my S430 to him temporarily, and he seems to like it (he has an E430 sport).

well, on the brighter side, our S430 is doing fine, although it seems to have a brain of it's own: the seat mysteriously adjusts itself by it self; when I leave in the day before, and come in the next day in the morning in the garage; either the headrest is fully up or the seat is all the way to the front. i don't understand this because i thought that the seat's don't have power if the ignition is out, and no one enters the garage at night...

the SL is doing quite fine, my neighbors still envious (one of them is considering the new BMW 645ci).

i've also seen quite a few new Jag's on the street in La Jolla. it is trully a classy car, but frankly, it's not "my style" ( i am attached to the looks of the BMW 745Li, the half sporty/half classy lines of the S-Class, and i have to admit, the sharp design of the new Audi A8L. the jaguar is simply to "old-world-elegance" for me! (no offense to fellow Jaguar fans out there, it's a beautiful machine!"

i_drive · November 2003

i know what it feels like to be a fire victim (my wife and i were affected by a fire many many years ago). my heart goes out to all thoses who were affected. i am certainly glad to hear that your parents/friend's family are not harmed.

airmatic--
i never knew that you owned an SL55? did you mean SL500? 2003-model year? what a coincidence: we both drive the same cars! you must be an MB-fan, or appreiate their vechicles alot.

and also, i too have a similar problem to the "by-itself problem" when the caris parked overnight in my garage; the COMMAND CD-ROM mysteriously self ejects itself out of the system. i have called Mercedes and they say they have no idea. i don't understand.

i have finally decided that i am planning on purchasing the new 2005/2006 Mercedes-Benz S-Class if all goes well with the final design of the car (i certainly hope the "Auto-Spies" picture of the "2005 S-Class" is incorrect.)

one of my friends, sent me this e-mail to me, which i thought was quite interesting, and thought i should pass it along to you all (MIND YOU, I DID NOT WRITE THIS)

'The 2004 Mercedes-Benz S500; passport to any destination that you should desire-
what is wrong:
1) BMW 745Li- looks too much like a spaceship from outer space, looks more futuristic than elegance/luxury
2) Lexus LS430- Looks great, excellent quality, but when you park is side-by-side to the German sport-luxury sedans, you (the car) feels "surrounded"
3) Audi A8L- overly-conservative styling; doesn't look that futuristic for a 2004-model year; fit's in quite nicely though
4) Jaguar- could be another "passport", except 1800's design could leaves you wondering when are they going to re-design this?"
5) Infiniti Q45- don't even talk about it.
6) Mercedes-Benz S500- "THE" car YOU want to be seen: driving it, relaxing in it, in it, or simply "to be seen". although it is begining to show its age compared to the rest of the pack, it's still (in his opinion) "simply the best, better than the rest."
APF'

interesting, huh?

bluestar1 · November 2003

Sad to hear of the unfortunate fate that befell your parents and your best friend. Although many of what we own are irreplaceable, the only truly irreplaceable is our life, and thankfully these people are still alive today. That is the miracle. Like you I live in the county of San Diego, and although not evacuated, the fire was only 3 miles away and we were on pins and needles wondering if it would blow our way. Thankfully it didn't. Makes us stand back and reflect on what truly are of importance to us.

merc1 · November 2003

The E55 isn't alone in the horsepower/chassis situation. A whole hose of cars with 400+ hp are going to require some skill to drive, with their traction/stability aids switched off. Naturally the E55 doesn't handle as well as the M5, but some of this "it's scary in the corners" stuff is little on the ridiculous side.

I think the hp peak will be reached within the next couple of years. I also think 500hp is about enough for a sedan, especially the midsize variety. Now a 6000lb Maybach or 5500lb Rolls Phantom almost "needs" that kind of power to get them out of their own way.

tasillo,

" I have a feeling the new A8 won't fair any better resale wise than the old one, in 2005 an A8 with decent miles may be available in the high $30's."

That would be a hell of a car for the money, but I don't think that is going to happen. The new car should do better in resale, we all know it deserves too.

M

footie · November 2003

Hi Merc1,

Long time no chat. I see you are still active here and always appreciate my thoughtful inputs to this very important niche in the automobile market.

Sorry, for not 'getting it' but isn't this 500 hp thing like having a 1/2 acre swimming pool or 50,000 square foot home?

Looks good on paper, fun to talk about and show off to the oglers, but rather useless.

It would seem to me that real luxury is much more along the line that MB's 4matic step has taken: a luxury car for all conditions. Great everyday road handling with an engine/transmission and occupancy that are well-suited to it's needs and intended usage.

Also, the high hp, MB "Mustang" pony cars like the E55 or S55 can't begin to 'compete dynamically' with cars actually designed to use high horsepower, like a Porsche. I feel they are dangerous. (IMHO).

Nobody I know likes to ride around as a passenger in a sedan with 500 hp while the ageing driver shows off his testosterone reservoir, lack of respect for the environment and scares the youknowhat out of everyone when the vehicle reaches the driver's limits long before it reaches its. (Thanks to the alphabet soup of vehicle save-me technologies, this doesn't cause as many crashes as it used to!)

merc1 · November 2003

As always footie, I have to ask whats the point of all that?

An AMG Benz is no more dangerous than a RS6, XJR, M5, Viper, Corvette, Porsche or Ferrari in the hands of someone that doesn't know what they're doing. To suggest so is ridiculous at best. Any car with 500hp represents a certain amount of danger to a novice. Heck a Mustang GT (a mere 200+ hp) is dangerous in the hands of the just-got-their-license 16 year old.

M

syswei · November 2003

I second that, personally I'd rather see Lexus add AWD to the LS than add another 200hp to a sedan that already does 0-60 in 5.9sec.

Some might want to pay an extra $20k-$50k or whatever for extra cylinders (beyond 8) and hp (beyond 300 or so) in a sedan, but they are few and far between, as evidenced by the BMW 760 vs 745 sales data.

merc1 · November 2003

I have to say that with that mindset Lexus is destined to forever produce yawns from anyone wanting some excitement. Would it really be that terrible if Lexus produced a next generation GS to compete with all AMG, M, R and RS sedans of the world? Gee whiz, live a little guys.

M

syswei · November 2003

Lexus probably should produce something to compete with the AMG/M types. It would enhance the brand image, certainly. But does it matter to that many people? The M3 (including the convertible) accounts for just 7% of 3-series sales, while the M5 accounts for 4% of 5-series sales.

I'm just saying there are other things that would be more widely appreciated, such as AWD or maybe pre-collision (yes, copying MB).

michael_mattox · November 2003

To me a Luxury car is peace and quiet, comfort, and the ability to handle any conditions safely (I agree with you about 4 wheel drive)

I am getting older but I would rather an exciting destination and a comfortable peacefull drive to get to it.

merc1 · November 2003

You know what, I agree with all that, but Lexus already has those things (and they do it quite well), minus the awd. I just think it's time for Lexus to liven things up a bit, everyone else has something exciting somewhere in their lineup. What kills me with you guys is that suddenly because I suggested that something more exciting be added, there is this notion that everyone should have a 500hp AMG/M type car. Never said that.

Talk about a brand that appeals to a many due to its depth of product, thats Mercedes. In fact Mercedes has the widest range of products in the luxury market so I'm fully aware of needing to have awd and other practical things, but MB (and others) also understand that these products need to be balanced out by offering something for that discerning few. It doesn't hurt the brand, it only builds it.

M

syswei · November 2003

I agree that MB has an impressively wide/deep product line, and that Lexus should move in that direction. I think they have made comments suggesting that they will, but it would be tough to come remotely close to the number of variants MB has, at least in the near term.

michael_mattox · November 2003

When the product line is broadened with low production image machines it increases the cost of the primary products.

Look at how well Lexus has held it's new car price and maintained it's quality leadership....I think they have the better profit and growth model.

A few models done VERY WELL works....Yes, there are some who would like to see a Lexus uber car, others like myself would like a big LS430 convertable, some would be happy with 10 or 12 or 16 cylinders .....It is very expensive to produce these cars that sell in such small volume.

lenscap · November 2003

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't questioning the use of aluminum in the Jaguar, just the way they are marketing the car. I feel since the aluminum is such a huge part of the car they should play it up in more ways than just lighter/faster.

As for repairs on the Jaguar, I just read an article on this. Jaguar has 28 structural repair shops to repair the XJ. These are either run by Jaguar dealers or are independent shops. The initial investment is about $100,000 since these shops need special tools like computer-controlled welders, riveting guns and an isolated repair bay (needed because if steel particles come into contact with aluminum it can corrode). This compares to 11 repair shops for the Audi A8, which require an initial investment of $250,000 to become certified due to mandates by Audi.

Jaguar has 169 non-structural body shops that require only a $5,000 investment by the shop.

Because there is a big dollar investment in aluminum car development, only high end cars will be all or nearly all aluminum. This is because the high cost cannot be gained back in cheaper cars. As a result, the next Audi A6 and Jaguar S-Type will not be made of aluminum.

oac3 · November 2003

syswei and mmattox. Merc1 is right that Lexus needs to liven things up a bit. I believe we all do agree somewhat. What we seem to disagree is to go the route of Mercedes or BMW and do the hp-war stuff.

Toyota/Lexus has never been into that, and they probably won't, at least in the short-term. Rather, as michael_mattox eloquently puts it, doing a few things well is far more profitable than doing a lotta things poorly. Witness the declining quality of Mercedes. Do you think spreading themselves too thin may be a culprit here ? Way too many variants to satisfy every conceivable market space. Among a bevy of C-classes are low production C32 and C43's; ditto S-classes in very low productions - S55, SL500, SL600's; what about the coupes - CL55, CL65, CLK55, CLK65, or the E-class - E55. How many muscle cars does the market need ? Spreading one's resources this thinly makes for a huge risk in cost-containment, quality control, reliability, and the small things that seem to fall apart quickly. Profit margin at DCX has taken a huge hit, and without much cash, it is difficult to sustain these large variants much less future growth.

miroslav1 · November 2003

Hi all,

I ride a Honda CB100 and have never owned a car in my life, so I really need some help. My wife wants a nice big Sedan, and I don't want to spend more then $20,000. Should I get an early 1990s MB S class or BMW 7 series, or a more recent Lexus, Infiniti?

Are there any particular years when the MB S class was really fine, like wine? Or the Lexus Es? Any models or years to stay away from?

I'm really starting from scratch here, so I'd appreciate all reasonable advice. Thanks in advance.

Miroslav

fenn · November 2003

Opinions are like "you know whats" ...and you are bound to get a wide range of ideas around here.

Are you sure that you want to ask us? There are a few folks that will tell you any MB is the best bet. Of course, there are others who will tell you that the reliability of a Lexus is the way to go. Then, somebody will tell you that the ultimate driving machine is a BMW. etc, etc.

For starters, you need to decide whether there is a characteristic or look that you want in your car...Or, is there a ride, comfort, and convenience issue that makes you happy. OR, are you wanting reliable, low maintenance operation?

You need to decide what is the most important thing to you, but you also need to shop hard and look at a bunch of cars if you are buying used.

I am not even going to offer a strong opinion because there will be ten other viewpoints that disagree. However, my general thoughts, based on budget and practicality are that a used car under 20k may be a best bet with a Lexus or an Infiniti.

For best used value with high content you can take a look at Infiniti. The Q45's have had poor resale as new cars, but they are a good buy if you are picking up a used one cheap.

Good luck.......

ljflx · November 2003

I'll second everything that DonnFenn said and ask you what are you looking for in terms of ride. Do you want a sport handling car or a softer luxury ride? Do you want a more recent model say a mid 90's sedan or one that is 10 years old? In the latter grouping all the cars will be around the same price point assuming they have similar high miles on them. Lexus and Infiniti (don't rule out the Acura Legend or RL either) will offer you the best chance for a more reliable car but there are no guarantees that you will get a trouble free car and repair bills are not cheap in this league. If you go the real high end route I would stay away from anything with an air suspension. Since the Infiniti Q doesn't hold its value well anyone who buys a pre-owned one is getting a great car at a low price and can buy a later year model. The Q45 has poor resale value because of its lack of popularity and not because it lacks abilility or luxury. It's a lot of car for the money and an excellent car if you seeking the best bang for the buck. For what its worth I had a family member and friend buy out two cars at the end of my lease terms. The first was a 93 Acura Legend and the second was a 95 LS400. Both cars are still around today and both have surpassed the 200k mark in miles. Lastly I'd get my hands on the Consumer Reports buyers guide. The 2004 edition just came out and it has a large section that tells you what the problem cars have been and what areas of each car have been problem prone over the years. It will also point out what model years are better than others within the same brand.

Merc1 - Agree completely with you on your Lexus comment re sporting things up. Regardless of low volume car comments made earlier, if you really want to play in the rareified air long-term than putting out AMG's and M-class models as well as V-10's/12's is a cost of doing business. If they lose money it becomes an extension of a marketing expense and if they make money then all the better. I think Lexus will enter that space after 2005 as they redo their body styles.

merc1 · November 2003

Your second paragraph of post #3475 raises some interesting points. Yes Mercedes has more models than ever before, but that isn't the main reason for their quality decline, cost cutting is. Some of which may or may not be linked to having to absorb losses at Chrysler. This sheer depth of models means there is always something new to try, so a many a MB buyer (not all) will stay with MB until they sort out their issues. This has been witnessed right here on this very board. A LS430 or SC430 buyer doesn't have any other choice after that but to get another LS or SC, which I'm sure is fine for many, not saying it isn't...just trying to make the point about product...not desirability.

Toyota's Lexus on the other hand has been very conservative with their lineup when it comes to additions. They only new segment they've entered is the sport sedan segment with the IS300, and it hasn't been a success. Lexus' best products are the LS, ES, their SUVs and the SC430. The difference between Lexus and Mercedes is that Lexus' sales dominance is based on somewhere around 50 percent of those sales being based on SUVs. Mercedes' sales aren't dependent on any one model as they all are top sellers in their respective segments. If Mercedes is spread too thin, Lexus is just the opposite....no variety. I wouldn't want to be that dependent on one particular segment (SUV) of the market.

Mercedes is only doing what they've always done, many versions of the same car. BMW and Audi do the same thing, they just don't have as many models (like the CLK, CL, SL) to do it with. You should see all the C, E and S-Class variants that we don't get here. Euro makers have always done this, it's nothing new. For years Mercedes' most loyal customers asked for more variants, and just looking the sales numbers it was justified. Look for BMW (6-Series, X3, 1-Series, possible X7) to do the same thing in just about a year or so.

" How many muscle cars does the market need ?"

None. It's not about "need" its about want, lust, desire, but definitely not need. Everyone has a tuner product nowadays, its all the rage, similar to the SUV thing. Even Volvo has a 300hp S60R, with an adjustable suspension that has one mode only suitable for the track. This is from Volvo!

ljflx,

You see my point..yikes! I'd like to see what the mighty Toyota/Lexus could do if allowed to let their hair down with a hi-po variant of the next GS.

M

b4z · November 2003

Back in the '60s it was said that "musclecars were never more than 5% of the total market.
I would be curious what it is now.
Especially in light of the fact that many sedans are quicker than 90-95% of the musclecars of the '60s.

michael_mattox · November 2003

The best big used luxury sedan you can buy for 20,000 or less is a low milage Lexus LS400...

They are Very dependable...The most dependable car you can buy.

High End Luxury Cars

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