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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    You stated: "This sheer depth of models means there is always something new to try, so a many a MB buyer (not all) will stay with MB until they sort out their issues. This has been witnessed right here on this very board. A LS430 or SC430 buyer doesn't have any other choice after that but to get another LS or SC,..."

    Great point. Your whole post makes a lotta sense to me now. Indeed, I think I agree with you 100% in everything you said. Wow !!! That is a first, hopefully of many more to come, lol !

    Lexus truly needs to liven things up. Hope someone up there at Torrance, California, is listening.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I also agree. But remember that Lexus has said, quite often, they don't intend to be all things to all people. MB tries very hard to do that, thus you have cars as low as $26k starting points these days and an A-class model which will be lower still. Part of the reason for that is clearly due to the way the European market evolved over time as merc1 stated. Secondly merc1 is talking from the enthusiasts standpoint and he's 100% right from that view. But last week Toyota announced record profits of $5bln in a six month period during a period where the Yen strengthened. An exceptionally strong performance to say the least given the currency rates worked against them. So they obviously have done things very well. They will spice things up but it will be a mild flavor. Right now its obvious from the Tokyo show their next big startegy is hybrids, sportier designs and AWD on most models. They'll play to the hard core enthusiasts a bit but they are clearly looking to blow the cover off the ball with their hybrid technology.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    MB falling behind BMW, Lexus & Acura in residual race, with Infiniti closing in fast. Caddy is improving, but still way behind the pack! Article doesn't say, but probably Audi doesn't do too well either. Full article

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01697582

    MB purportedly is unconcerned, saying many of its products are nearing end of cycle. Funny, they never needed that excuse in the past, when they were always the top guy! It's time for them to make real adjustments, not excuses!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There is no question that reliability experiences of buyers and media articles about it are hurting MB. But the new E should have helped offset a lot of the product aging they discuss in the article since its MB's biggest seller. I know at least 10 MB buyers, some who wouldn't have looked at another car in the past, who have moved to BMW and Lexus. They won't go back until MB addresses and fixes the reliability issues it has. It's inevitable that perception will catch up to reality at some point and it is probably starting to happen.

    By the way I respect and greatly admire the incredible depth of MB vehicles available. Having so many variants of cars is no easy task and is the mark of a great company. It is also a reason why MB prices are higher than everyone else as the less syndicated products you have the higher your unit cost overall is to manufacture. So that cost gets averaged in to all cars produced and the person shopping your basic MB pays more for both the product diversity and the brand image. But when the residuals start to fall from historical levels those higher new prices will not be supportable long-term.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Continuing what mariner7 posted above, Automotive Lease Guide (ALG) honored 2004 vehicles predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price. The luxury brands ranked as follows:

    1. BMW
    2. Lexus
    3. Acura
    4. Mercedes
    5. Audi
    6. Infiniti
    7. Volvo

    Not listed, because they finished below average, are Cadillac, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lincoln and Saab.

    Segment awards were as follows:
    Compact car - MINI Cooper
    Midsize car - Honda Accord
    Sports car - Nissan 350Z
    Near luxury car - Lexus ES 330
    Luxury car - Mercedes CLK
    Minivan - Honda Odyssey
    CUV - Honda Pilot
    Compact SUV - Honda CR-V
    Midsize SUV - Toyota 4Runner
    Fullsize SUV - Toyota Sequoia
    Compact truck - Toyota Tacoma
    Fullsize truck - Toyota Tundra
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    It is amazing how many there are out there.
    There is currently a '91 with 36,000 miles on ebay.
    Bidding ended on '96 in white diamond with just 35,000 miles Sunday. The car was stunning. Elderly owned and garaged. Winning bid was $19,100.
    I bought a '95 LS 400 on Sunday that had 127K miles for $9700. jade green and tan interior.
    Doctor owned and well maintained.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Regarding your post above about "the incredible depth of MB vehicles available", do not forget that all the Mercedes 4dr.sedan models available look alike.....may be not as incredible when you think about that aspect.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Others have alluded to this already, but there are different ways of looking at what Lexus "should" do as far as offering more models and variants.

    From a CORPORATE standpoint, since, as ljflx pointed out, they (Toyota) are the most profitable company, it appears that the current strategy works just fine, and that maybe MB should be emulating Toyota/Lexus rather than the other way around.

    From a pure PRESTIGE standpoint, Lexus should offer more models and variants, of course; but imho it is not clear from the evidence that this would benefit corporate profitability even in the very long term.

    From a PERSONAL standpoint, it just depends on what one wants. Personally, I don't see myself in a SL65-equivalent, but would consider a Lexus wagon, if such existed, to potentially replace the LX my wife drives.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They need to do a few things:

    1. AWD availability on most or all models. But don't force it the way Audi did - that was a big mistake in my opinion.
    2. build the HPX ASAP
    3. Allow for tuned versions of the LS,GS,SC and IS. Get the new GS out soon as the old model is far too dated. They need a volume seller between the ES and LS.
    4. bring out the Hybrids with the added power and improved mileage
    5. allow a better mixing of option components. Currently the packages are too syndicated.
    6. Put a greater distance between Lexus and Toyota and clean-up the duality of the LX and TLC
    7. I also like what MB does in offering a slew of additional colors at an extra $1k but I'm getting petty now.

    The most important thing they need to do though is maintain the great build quality and reliability of the cars they have today. The quality of the Lexus name is so high. I had a guy trying to sell me a high-end and very costly copier last year and he swore the machine would run like a Lexus. So after telling him I had 3 Lexus vehicles I then explained to him my expectations.

    PS - I bought the machine for the office. It's very good but it's no Lexus.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    It is hard to argue that a company this successful, this profitable, and this rich needs help charting a new future. I have to agree that Lexus does need more variants, BUT not in the tradition of Mercedes.

    Lexus already is charting a new course starting 2005. The LF-S and LF-X concept vehicles are winners, imo. The new GS cannot come any sooner, and it better be good. I hope the rumor that it diverges from the LF-S isn't true. AWD is certainly needed on the GS and LS as options (we west-coasters don't have that much need for AWD).

    For 2005 GS, I'd like to see a REAL BMW killer: 6-speed tranny, 18" wheels, L-tuned suspension (Euro or whatever Lexus chooses to call it), V8 hybrid engine delivering 350+bhp, ML, 4th-gen Nav, bluetooth, XM, and some of the stuff on the '04 LS430. Improved handling and performance, 0-60 in the low 5s, AWD, solid build quality, new design ---> translates to a winner !

    I have faith that the *new* freer Lexus will deliver on its goal. Mercedes and BMW certainly ain't standing pat tho'. It's gonna get more interesting, and we the consumers are going to be the REAL winners in a couple of years from now.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You/us/we agreeing....I'm speechless! ljflx, your post # 3491 is especially interesting, I didn't know you had it in you...lol. I've written Mercedes about that 1K special order charge, I think it needs to be done away with. I'm willing to bet that Lexus will build the HPX. It's the perfect compliment to the RX300 and a exact competitor to the upcoming Mercedes R-Class (GST). A new large lux-crossover segment is emerging I think.

    syswei,

    You're right Lexus shouldn't try to do the model layout like the Germans do, but at the very least they need one tuner product based on the next GS. AWD would definitely be a welcome addition to the GS and LS lines, as would another engine option for the LS and SC models. That would go a long way towards acceptance in the higher-end segments.

    bluestar1,

    One thing...the next GS is going to need far more than 350hp if it wants to be a BMW killer, that is if you're talking about going after the next M5 (500hp). Now if you're talking about a 545i Sport competitor then such a GS would be just the right car.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    For the Lexus GS to be a competitor it has to offer a Limited slip differential.
    This open differential stuff is for the birds.
    And traction control does not give equal performance.
    It should be LSD and have traction control.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    MODEL DAYS ON LOT
    Toyota Prius 5
    Toyota Sienna 7
    Mini Cooper 10
    Honda CR-V 11
    Honda Pilot 11
    Lexus ES 330 11
    Lexus RX 330 11
    Mercedes-Benz SL-Class 11
    Lexus SC Coupe 13
    Scion xB 13

    source: Wall Street Journal and Power Information Network LLC, an affiliate of J.D. Power & Associates

    ...augurs well for the RX400H next year.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    That information is very interesting. Is there a way to access it on the web?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If you are a Wall Street Journal customer, search using the word 'hot' or 'prius'. Otherwise, you could try the JDP site but I don't know if it is available for free.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    It takes less than 2 weeks to retail off 3 Toyota's and 3 Lexuses. That is incredible ! And the SC430 makes it, to boot. That is unbelievable. What does this mean in terms of market acceptance and strength. Even the lowly Scions, which IMO, are just plain UGLY both the xA and xB (marginally better). Guess why Toyota/Lexus profit is soaring if they cannot even keep these cars on dealer lots.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Was you mouth wide open and your eyeballs popping out or something like that.

    Hey it's time for them to move to level 2. I liked the MB extra choice colors - some were very interesting. But I agree it's not really a needed thing. But look at the LX470 - 6 color options is ridiculous for something that pricey. So in that case I'd be willing to pay the extra for a color choice that is not standard.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Even a $20k Prius has more color choices and more option package choices (9) than many Lexus models. I don't understand why corporate limits choice so much on the Lexus side.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Interesting fact...Land Cruiser has 8 color choices, LX 6.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I haven't checked so I'm saying this blindly. But I'll bet one of the TLC colors is riverrock green which is the color I would love to get the LX470 in.

    Merc1 - I agree with you on a new Crossover segment emerging. Call it the minivan/suv as opposed to the RX's car/suv. The reason the HPX never looked like the Infiniti to me is because, in person it is more like an elevated minivan. Yet it is clearly not a minivan. I think in retrospect Infiniti's FX and Chrysler's Pacifica just missed hitting it. Though the Chrysler is real close in vehicle genre it also is different than the HPX. Lexus and MB will nail it - imo.
  • blockislandguyblockislandguy Member Posts: 336
    Since when were physicians known for obsessive vehicle maintenance? Any l995 car with 127K on the clock is looking at radiator, transmission, A/C, and other work. The car at this point doesn't really care if the owner puts letters after his name.

    I do get a kick out of physicians who in the Sunday classifieds list the car as "Dr. owned". What an arrogant, self serving crock. I would much rather see listed "CPA owned, always garaged, one dealer serviced, Mobil 1 only, with maintenance record spread sheets available for your inspection".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Was you mouth wide open and your eyeballs popping out or something like that."

    That and constantly looking at the ID of the poster, I couldn't believe I was reading one your posts.

    The FX and Pacifica. The Pacifica is a fine vehicle hampered by two things. It needs more power, either a re-worked V6 or better yet a V8 option. Next it produced a lot of sticker shock for Chrysler customers. It would have been a runaway hit without those two problems. The Infiniti FX is way too sporty in ride and smallish in demensions to compete with the upcoming R-Class and the HPX. These two vehicles will establish this class, all thats left is to see who gets there first.

    M
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Well, I must beg to differ with you. I am a doctor and I fanatically maintain my cars, even garage them. My LS has never missed its scheduled maintainance, and regular oil change. I have the service history and can spread them out on the front seat of my car for you or anyone at anytime. So maybe I am an exception to your observation, but an exception all the same.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Thanks for you kind words.
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    The postings regarding the 500 HP German cars is valid but misses an important issue. The Germans build these cars to prove they can! Marketing types refer to these as "halo" products. You or I may walk into the MB or BMW showroom to drool all over an E55 or M3, but are much more likely to drive out in an E320 or 325i. Also, as both of these cars are closely related to the mainstream models, development costs are not too high to support the business case to build them. Look at all the publicity Audi has gotten out of the RS6. There's only a handful earmarked for the U.S. but lot's of folks will read about it and think RS6 but end up with a A6 or A8. Lexus hasn't gone this route (yet) as they've concentrated on building a brand based around refinement, service and reliability. Those 3 attributes are now well established, I wouldn't be surprised to see a next generation GS with 450 hp from a supercharged V8, all-wheel drive, some form of active or Skyhook type suspension and incredible electronics. We'll all be impressed and then buy the more mainstream 6 or 8 cylinder product that delivers 80% of the performance, 90% of the image at 75% of the price. Same formula as the Germans.

    Finally, look no farther than Ford with it's GT program or the Viper. Chrysler gives away more Town & Country's in a year than it sells Viper's, but what gets the publicity!

    Looking forward to that Lexus "supercar" and the inevitable Car & Driver "comparison" that selects the "flavor of the month"!
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    Anybody see yesterday's (11/13/03) USA Today business section? Front page article was about the increasing complexity of today's high-end cars and the difficulty of repairing them when something goes wrong. Specifically, the article referenced the BMW 7 series and Mercedes E class owners as having had their troublesome cars bought back as they could not be fixed reliably or quickly. Small reference to Cadillac and no reference at all to the Japanese makes. Is USA Today "piling on" the Germans? Or are the issues the provence of the Europeans????
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    The Germans have built a reputation for cutting edge Technology....They believe that gives them great public visability and they are right.

    The price they pay is the rush into production The need to be first with the greatest and latest.

    The Japanese are not great inventors but they are terrific at taking existing technology and making it MUCH better.

    The consumer has a choice buy german and get the latest and greatest at a higher price or buy Japanese and get the tech. a year or so later and get it in a form that will be very dependable and in some case better and get it at a lower price.

    Why a lower price...The Germans have done the initial R&D, the expensive part, They need to recoupe that cost...Secondly.. being first with something new and great allows for a higher price.
    Third...The Germans know there will be additional warrenty expenses on new technology that they will need to pay for.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I think the answer is simple. The Japanese are far better at mastering technology than the Germans. Thus they should be leading that revolution in the car. It's a natural but it also means a change from the historical mainstream. But the Germans have always led in engineering and are trying to lead to maintain their image as leaders. But it's not working because they are in uncharted territory for them - where they can't lead. Technology is young whereas auto engineering is pretty mature and was well mastered by the Germans. If this was the stock market you know where the money would be. Well actually - now that I think of it that is the case - TM has a much higher multiple than everyone else

    By the way - you've got to be careful with that halo effect. Buying an internet company was supposed to have a halo effect on your stock price a few years back. Auto mfrs. better build those halo cars spectacularly.
  • ksurgksurg Member Posts: 48
    Seems like this thread has lost it roots. The argument over Japanese vs. German superiority sounds like a chapter from pre WWII history book. You ever consider how many Japanese engineers are in Germany and to what extent Japanese technology has benefitted from German cross fertilization. If someone wants to invest in TM they can go read the portfolio. In the meantime it would be refreshing to actually discuss present and scheduled luxury vehicles. There just seems to be to much ego or perhaps self justification wrapped up in a lot of these posts. Lighten up and enjoy( wasn't it Nissan that said " life a journey...enjoy the ride").
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Looking foreward to you kicking off the discusson you suggest....
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    I agree to an extent that we've denigrated to a discussion of which country makes the better product. However I think the discussions are worth continuing in this forum because they point out a significant difference in the philosophies of the companies based in Europe vs. those in the Far East.

    In my humble opinion (and actual ownership experiences), the European automakers place the premium on the driving experience while the Japanese builders place their premium on the ownership experience. One is not better than the other, it's just what is important to the individual. I'm willing to put up with a few foibles in my BMW in order to savor the high level of performance and driving enjoyment this car provides. My father would never leave the Lexus family (after years of owning BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar) as for him it's all about the ease of ownership. Neither he nor I is "right".

    I'm only critical of the European manufacturers (and others critical of the Japanese) for one reason. If the Europeans could ever combine their current superiority in the driving experience with the Japanese's ability to get the details perfect, I'd have nothing left to complain about! Similarly, if Lexus (or Infiniti) ever produce an LS 430 that rewards the driver like a 7 series or S class, I'd likely switch marques immediately.

    In a nutshell, I don't believe any of us are politicians or harkening back to the days after WWII, rather were a passionate bunch that really wants our brand of choice to be as good as it can be. Hopefully, the good folks at Daimler-Chrysler, BMW, Lexus and the others monitor forums like these.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You should drive the LS430 with the euro suspension option particularly the 2004 edition. It easily outdoes an S-class in sport handling as long as you are talking about an ordinary $85k S500 and you pocket $20k+. In addition you maintain the great refinement and luxury, super quiet ride and second to none ownership experience.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    I second ljflx. The 2004 LS430 is a significant change to the previous versions, not in aestethics but in the handling and performance areas. At least that's what I have heard so far.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I've driven it. It's a dream.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    MB fans are quick to point out that the C&D comparo used a 2003 S, and wonder what the result might have been with the 7-speed 2004. Fair enough, but the S was tested with "optional sport suspension and special-purpose tires...245/45-18s in front and 265/40-18s in back, both ends labeled Michelin Pilot Sport" whereas the LS was tested with its standard rather than euro suspension..."If you really want muscles, opt for the sport suspension with 18-inch summer tires. The 17s on the test car were quick to moan when pushed. Skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g." If it had been a 2004 S vs a euro/18" LS, the results might not have changed at least insofar as the relative rankings.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I will likely do a deal with Lexus this month that is interesting and I believe shows what can get done at this marquee level of car manufacturers.

    I had just turned in my LX470 as my lease ended in October. I now have the two LS430's and I only need two vehicles again. But I can't be without an SUV in winter here or in general for a long period with my family needs. I also have to get that third row thus that ruled out the Range Rover. By the way the latter is indeed a great truck and I love the styling. So I cut a deal - at least via phone to swap out an LS430 5 months before the lease ends for an LX470. The math seems to work out to about $2k less than Edmunds TMV and I get out of five months of obligations. Plus the LX works out to be about the same lease payment as I was paying for the LS430. So from a pocket book stand point there is no change for me except I've met my needs much better and have a newer vehicle that stickers $9k above the 2001 LS. If I go through with it I'm taking the LX with everything but night vision and it will sticker at $70k. My wife still wants to test drive the GX though as she likes its size better so I may still have to see if I'm going to do this deal at the GX level, though I doubt it. That truck is a bit too narrow for me. If I do this deal I will likely take a black with the stone gray interior.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    At the dealer last month getting my Nav update, seeing a GX next to an LX is a huge difference in size. The LX is just much more substantial than the GX could ever be. Like you said, much too narrow, and the third row seat is an after-thought, best for little kids. $ for $, the LX is a far better choice, imo.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The difference is greater still when you drive both. I have and I know the GX won't cut it. She is still intimidated by the LX size. But we have several friends in town that have TLC's and LX's and in those family it is the vehicle driven primarily by the wives.
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    As I've heard (and read) quite a bit about the uplevel suspension on the new LS, I'm convinced I need to go drive one. I'll try and locate one this weekend and provide an opinion early next week.

    Honestly, I hope I'm disappointed as that will make it an easy choice to keep my 740. If it's a great car however, uh oh...
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't think people are suggesting that the euro LS handles precisely as well as a BMW, but here is a quote from another board zdude "Lexus LS" Nov 12, 2003 11:20pm "My LS430 has the Euro sport suspension with 18" wheels. I am a former BMW owner (5 series and X5) and I think lexus has a winner with this setup. Its by no means a 5 series BUT for a car its size it handles very, very well and has excellent road feel, IMHO and the sweet part, still retains its luxurious ride. My son (who drives a 3 series) was very impressed when he drove it and he doesn't like anything that is not German :)"

    Please let us know what you think after your test drive.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    After going through lease pricing the past 24 hours and looking at the article on residuals of a few days ago I must say I am quite surprised on the fall off in 3 year residual values from 2001 when you view it on a stand-alone basis. At that time when I was shopping MB and Lexus I was getting residuals in the 62-67% range on the LS430 and S430/500. I looked at my LX470 lease and it had a 62% residual while my 2001 LS430 has a 64% residual. These were all 3 year, 36k mile lease residuals. So why are car residuals in general falling. The only thing that comes to mind is the big drop in interest rates. In late 2000 and early 2001 you could have safely gotten 6.25% - I know as I tied up money in a 5 year Cd at 6.5%. So if you laid out $60k to buy a car you effectively had foregone $71,500 (using 6% compounded) in cash after 3 years. Today with rates about 3% lower that same car ends up being $65,600 interest affected after 3 years. Thus in order to keep everyone from leasing instead of buying and in order to keep lease prices stable to 2001 type levels you need to lower the residual percentages. If interest rates go back up the residuals will probably rise with them. I guess it's the only way for the lease market to keep itself stable and in check in such a rapidly declining interest rate period.

    So I went and checked Edmunds TMV's for 2001 and I found that the LS430 I bought was at $37,319 on a dealer trade-in or 61% (vs the 64%) of 2001 MSRP and at around 66% on a private party deal. The S-class however was a bigger problem as it retained 58% of its value on a trade-in whereas it was supposed to keep 67%. In fact it only held to 63% on a private party deal. MB must be hurting on this given the sales dollars were higher. How they are not concerned is beyond me. Regardless though both of these percentages - even just at trade-in are well above those being set today.

    Per Edmunds - Lexus and MB dealers will sell you both cars at 71% and 67% of the 2001 MSRP though. So what is a car worth 3 years and 36k miles out? I don't think it will be in the 50-54% range but I'm not sure it will be as high as 2001's retained percentages either. Hybrid technology may hurt future values of today's cars but the biggest factor may be interest rate changes and their effect on lease residuals.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm really surprised as to how far the pre-owned market has fallen for them. The S-430 which was $14k more than the LS430 when I was cross shopping in 2001 is now worth only $5k more per edmunds. The S-500 that was $23k more is now worth only $11k more. The E-430 4-matic I priced which was $1500 cheaper than the LS430 is now worth $4k less. The dealer retail is equal to the buyouts I would have gotten and in the case of the E-class is lower!
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    ljflx

    The other issue is that the dollar has weakened relative to both the Yen and Euro. This means that it takes more $ to buy a yen or a Euro than it did in 2000.

    So by reducing residuals the captive Toyota and MB finance businesses increase the dollars they get over the course of the leases they issue now. They do this to hedge the price of dollars to purchase the yen/euros they need at the right interest rate to return the yen/euros they loaned out to lease or finance the car.

    Given the U.S.'s Starfleet-sized trade deficits (which are financed with money borrowed from these same two sources) and our huge forecasted deficits the dollar is likey to stay weak unless we raise interest rates. That won't likely happen until after the next election because of its impact on the housing market and car sales.

    As you suggest, I would guess that we'll continue to see these residuals until the interest rates go up.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Good points.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My wife loves it. Now I don't know what I am going to do. It does indeed ride beautifully and is more car like.

    Tasillo - only one LS430 at my dealership (a big volume guy) and it was the demo. All of the LS430's at this place are sold out through Nov. 30 so this car is hot. I hope you got your chance to drive one let alone a Euro.

    For the Lexus guys on the board - The LS, GX, RX, SC and ES are selling so quickly that it is not easy to deal on them and in some cases even get them.. The LX is more negotiable but is also selling well. The GS and IS are slow.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I guess that would have a positive effect on LS400/430 resale value.
    Have dealt with a couple of Lexus dealers who have ridiculously high asking prices on their used LS400s.
    Augusta lexus had a '97 with 90K miles and was asking $23,900, about choked when he told me.
    It was in amazing condition for a '97.
    On the other hand I have seen 90K mile '98-99s for sale at 18.9-20.9K.
    I have pretty much given up on working with Lexus dealers because of their high asking prices.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    http://automobilemag.com/news/news_03_1/
  • zdudezdude Member Posts: 22
    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=7359&page_number=1
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If you're going to compare a Euro LS, you should compare it to a Sport S-Class, otherwise the comparison is not truly of alike cars, and isn't fair. The S-Class in the C&D comparo had ABC on top of the regular "Sport" package. I would just get a sport model, I wouldn't order ABC on a S430, it's too expensive.

    BTW, I got a chance to finally see the Phaeton. I saw a rather large car sitting in the VW dealers showroom, so it could only be....

    My Prediction: The Phaeton won't make it. VW's sales mentality won't cut it with a 88K (W12 model on the floor) car. The salesman that were present were telling everyone to schedule an appointment to see the car, and wouldn't even open it....even for the older (older than me) people there that looked able to buy such a car. The car itself looks ok, though it might be a little on plain side. The A8 definitely looks a lot better. Most people will either like or hate the stretch, upsized Passat look. VW's dealer body simply isn't ready for this car. If you get a chance check one out and let us know what you think.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    VW - amazing that they could go through all that investment and then turn off people at the sale process. They are starting to remind me of Infiniti at its inception with the clouds. The car is off limits to feel and explore but they will at least make you see it instead of the sky.

    If you had - say $40k - to plunk down on a car today what would you buy or lease?
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